Slashdot Mirror


White House Proposal Rolls Back Fuel Economy Standards, No Exception For California (npr.org)

The Trump administration has proposed a rollback of Obama-era fuel efficiency and emissions standards, while simultaneously taking aim at California's unique ability to set more stringent rules. From a report: Under the Obama administration, the Environmental Protection Agency called for the fuel economy standards for new vehicles to ratchet up over time. The increasingly strict standards were designed to combat climate change by reducing greenhouse gas emissions. On Thursday, the EPA and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration released a new proposed rule that would instead freeze the standards at their 2020 levels for six years. "Cars and trucks are just part of the basic fiber of the American economy and the American experience, so we take what we're doing very, very seriously," Bill Wehrum, EPA assistant administrator, told reporters on Thursday. The agencies say that increasing fuel efficiency requirements contributes to an increase in the cost of new cars and trucks, which may discourage consumers from buying new vehicles. Because newer vehicles have advanced safety features, the administration argues, increasing fuel economy requirements therefore harms highway safety, as well as having economic effects.

31 of 607 comments (clear)

  1. "I have friends who own coal mines..." by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "...and oil wells."

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    1. Re:"I have friends who own coal mines..." by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I was going to mod this "insightful" but it hardly qualifies.

      It should be obvious to anybody with two braincells to rub together.

      All those oil billionaires who financed Trump's campaign are getting their payback.

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:"I have friends who own coal mines..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your analogies don't hold up because it's a matter of degree, not yes or no. Yes sewers are important, but an absolutely immaculate, perfect sewer system that cleans absolutely everything at the cost of bankrupting a nation is not.

      Cars have very good emissions control systems right now. Increasing standards will drive up cost, and will not necessarily result in improvements in air quality; rather it's a ratio of investment. If it reduced air pollution by .1% but increased the cost of cars by 100%, then that's inefficient, whereas if it reduced air pollution by 20% but increased the cost of the car by only 2%, that might be considered efficient.

      Your analogies are useless given that they are absolutes when the topic at hand is a discussion of severity vs. increased cost.

    3. Re:"I have friends who own coal mines..." by Rob+Y. · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Funny how concepts like States' Rights lose their importance when you don't like what the States are doing - but are a useful cover when you want to, say, destroy unions - or pander to racist voters.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    4. Re: "I have friends who own coal mines..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      but because they hate the utter hypocrisy, corruption, and inefficiency of the standard political class.

      So they voted for the hypocrisy, corruption, and inefficiency of Trump?

      Remember his capacity for anything but rational arguments. He can't even admit when he makes things up from whole cloth.

      Maybe you would do better to consider how other people see your behavior when you embrace and apologize for Trump.

    5. Re: "I have friends who own coal mines..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      So you're smart, affluent, and you drive a Tesla.

      You're so awesome. I wish I were you.

    6. Re: "I have friends who own coal mines..." by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Informative

      That means the USA cars have even less chance of being sold in the EU

      Automakers do make "global" vehicles which are sold in multiple markets, but they also make regional vehicles which are only sold in specific markets. For example, Ford is discontinuing most of its cars here in the USA, but not elsewhere in the world, where people are still buying cars.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re: "I have friends who own coal mines..." by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      but because they hate the utter hypocrisy, corruption, and inefficiency of the standard political class.

      So they voted for the hypocrisy, corruption, and inefficiency of Trump?

      Remember his capacity for anything but rational arguments. He can't even admit when he makes things up from whole cloth.

      Maybe you would do better to consider how other people see your behavior when you embrace and apologize for Trump.

      I had a friend on Facebook post about how great Trump was because he was willing to give up a millionaire lifestyle to be President. Because apparently having people wait on your every need 24/7, having a private plane on standby just for you, spending almost every weekend at your own golf resort, and living in a 200 year old gated mansion isn't a millionaire lifestyle...

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    8. Re: "I have friends who own coal mines..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      but because they hate the utter hypocrisy, corruption, and inefficiency of the standard political class.

      So they voted for the hypocrisy, corruption, and inefficiency of Trump?

      Remember his capacity for anything but rational arguments. He can't even admit when he makes things up from whole cloth.

      Maybe you would do better to consider how other people see your behavior when you embrace and apologize for Trump.

      Quit creating straw men. I didn't say I voted for Trump. I do know many who did, and they did so solely because they don't care if Trump is inefficient or corrupt, the point is that he's not one of the current political class which is out of touch with their voter base.

      What I did say is that it is worthwhile to understand where they are coming from because those people have reasons for voting for Trump; in genera those reasons is a vote against the system. The Trump win is mostly a vote of no-confidence.

    9. Re:"I have friends who own coal mines..." by clodney · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If new cars cost more, more people keep driving old cars. Would you prefer 5% of the old cars are upgraded to new cars getting 20% better emissions, or that 20% of the old cars are upgraded to new cars getting 10% better emissions? If you can get more of the less efficient cars off the road for smaller per car improvement, but bigger net improvement, isn't that better than the virtue of being able to say you forced better standards for less net gain?

      Concentrating on the per unit improvement while ignoring the net is shortsighted. It gives a warm fuzzy feeling, but does not actually improve anything. Requiring less can actually achieve more. You need to be open minded enough to take economics in to consideration, not just the all or nothing approach of the green zealots.

      Sure, but is there any data that shows that is the likely outcome? How much more will the fuel efficiency standards cost in terms of purchase price? What assumptions about gas prices do you make in calculating the payback? How price sensitive are consumers? If the economy is growing do more people buy cars than during a recession?

      If the argument is serious, present the data and let people argue the calculations and assumptions. Otherwise it is just hand waving, like asserting that tax cuts pay for themselves by increasing growth - which if taken to its logical conclusion, suggests that you can maximize government revenue by decreasing the tax rate all the way to zero.

    10. Re: "I have friends who own coal mines..." by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not only is he not one of the existing political class, he was also the only candidate with any hope of beating them...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    11. Re: "I have friends who own coal mines..." by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is a dumb argument. If Warren Buffet sends in a gift to reduce the debt, that will just be used as an excuse to borrow more, and they'll hand the money to corporations and/or the military. But if taxes are raised, then rich people who don't want their taxes spent that way will complain about how tax money is spent, and since only rich people really have a meaningful vote in our oligarchy, that may actually result in the money being spent more wisely.

      Unfortunately, too many of the poor don't comprehend graduated taxation, so they don't support raising taxes on the rich. And so it goes.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  2. BS... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Modern safety features like stability control, auto-braking, and collision warning add minimum weight and don't affect economy. This is a 1980s way of thinking -- build a safety-box that takes a hit well but doesn't prevent crashes.

    1. Re:BS... by jitterbug · · Score: 4, Informative

      The EPA millage of an old car can't be compared directly with a new one as the EPA standards have changed.

      As an example, I found that 1998 Honda Civic 1.6 L, 4 cyl, Automatic 4-spd Original combined EPA rating 32 mpg.
      From this web site: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/comparempg.shtml
      The new EPA rating is only 28mpg

      New 2018 Civics get better than this.

  3. Hypocrites by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 5, Insightful

    while simultaneously taking aim at California's unique ability to set more stringent rules

    Trump, his Republican cronies, and their voters, are such a collection of hypocrites.

    For decades, all Republicans do is bleat "STATES' RIGHTS!" - But when those states actually exercise those rights (emissions / drug policy / guns) the Republicans do everything in their power to stomp all over them.

    1. Re:Hypocrites by Dragonslicer · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem is that CA is a large enough market that the rules they've been creating essentially apply to all the other states. That means one state is dictating to 49 other states who are not represented by the California legislature.

      California isn't dictating any laws to any other states. Companies are deciding that it's easier and cheaper to only make products that comply with California's laws, instead of having multiple different versions.

  4. World Follower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    World standards do not follow US standards. All vehicle makers have to conform to worldwide standards, not just the US. Besides, California standards are not the most strict when compared to international standards. Also California standards have been ratified by 12 other states. Since this is a proposed bill, it will not get out of committee without providing states the ability to set their own limits.

  5. Hello Malaise Era, we meet again... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Soon the US could be building gas guzzlers nobody outside the US wants to buy...and then when gas prices go back up, nobody inside the US will want to buy them either...remember how awesome it was last time that happened around the OPEC oil crisis? #MAGA!

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  6. Tesla by 110010001000 · · Score: 5, Funny

    If everyone would just buy a Tesla we would solve two problems: Tesla's balance sheet and the emissions problem. Solution: buy a Tesla.

    1. Re:Tesla by sinij · · Score: 4, Funny

      After making such recommendation, it is customary to disclose your position in Tesla stock.

  7. I would not mind this stupidity ... by Alain+Williams · · Score: 5, Interesting

    if the extra air pollution that it will cause would, somehow, be kept within the borders of the USA. It does not: it follows the winds and ends up harming the rest of us. If it did stay within the USA then those who caused it would suffer the consequences; but pollution is a global problem, not a national one - so it upsets me to see those who seemingly put, what they see, as their interests first and do not act in global interests.

    Please do not take this as an attack of most who live in the USA, I have friends who live there. Most are good guys who want to behave in a responsible way. It is unfortunate that your current president does not care about the planet, only making money for those who support him.

  8. Re:Fuel economy doesn't equal less emissions by neilo_1701D · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... when lawn mowers, leaf blowers, construction vehicles, etc, all spew out a lot more pollutants per minute than the hugest SUV or pickup truck.

    True... but how long do you run your leaf blower for? Purely in terms of hours per week, most cars run longer than the leaf blower by a huge factor.

  9. Re:Fuel economy doesn't equal less emissions by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    spew out a lot more pollutants per minute than the hugest SUV or pickup truck.

    Don't forget that the big transition from cars to SUV's was a direct response to fuel economy standard increases, because they effectively banned family station wagons but "light trucks" were in a different class, so people who needed station wagons now needed SUV's, which got worse mileage.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  10. Re:Fuel economy doesn't equal less emissions by admiralh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How many leaf blowers, lawn mowers, construction vehicles, etc. are running simultaneously vs. cars/trucks?

    Since the answer is orders of magnitude more, a 0.1% reduction in car emissions is much better for the total environment then if all emissions were eliminated from leaf blowers, lawn mowers, construction vehicles, etc.

    A slight bit of critical thinking would do you a world of good.

    --
    Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.
  11. Re:Better Idea by brianerst · · Score: 4, Informative

    The top income bracket (the 1%) pulls in about $2 trillion dollars. 0.001% of that gets you $20 million. On an average year, Americans purchase about 17 million vehicles, so your tax will save approximately $1.18 on the sticker price of each vehicle.

    Now, if we expand to, say, the top 25% we get a figure of $6.7 trillion. 0.001% of that gets you $67 million, or about $3.94 per car.

    "Screw that," you say, "I was just throwing out a number. Increase the tax by 1%". Now we're talking real numbers! A 1% surtax on the top 1% could (theoretically) pull in $20 billion dollars! Split among cars and you get... $1,180 per car. The average car in January 2018 was $36,270, so you would drop that to $35,090.

    Whoo hoo! That makes the car only... $180 more than the same car in January 2017. And that's not including the cost to hit the new emissions and safety targets your tax was supposed to cover.

  12. Re:Trump 2020 by Dragonslicer · · Score: 5, Funny

    breath of fresh air

    And now they're working on fixing that.

  13. Can we drop the ethanol requirements now? by pecosdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Regular gas engines do better WITHOUT ethanol - I would say it was actually worse for the environment due to decreased efficiency and decreased life-span of other parts in regular gas engines. Also, gas doesn't keep as long with Ethanol. I have a big gas can for my lawn mower, I use it for a couple of months, then dump what's left in my car and go fill it up again. If it were just plain gas I could just keep it until I emptied it through the lawn mower - could take a couple of years.

    I recently rented a flex-fuel vehicle, and I ran it with both E15 and E85. That vehicle probably did produce less pollution running E85, enough to justify the decrease in efficiency, but making us run it in our normal gas engines isn't helping anyone but the corn lobby.

    --
    The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
  14. Re:Better Idea by brianerst · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It was unclear from your very seat-of-the-pants estimates whether you meant top income tax bracket (currently 37%, only collected at income above $500/600K single/married) or the top income bracket.

    Fortunately, they are pretty much one and the same - approximately 1% of taxpayers reach the top tax bracket. And you were talking about a surtax - a tax on top of what they already pay.

    I gave numbers for total income received by both the top 1% and top 25% - this is before deductions or other modifiers to a taxable amount. So my numbers were super conservative - I was essentially allowing 100% of their income to be subject to your 0.001% surtax. And it pulled in nothing.

    Even bumping your percentage 1000 times over came up with numbers that barely move the needle when it comes to new cars. Under a higher CAFE standard, every average new car is better than any average old car, so nearly all cars would be subject to your refund.

    I know quite a bit about tax law and income distribution in the US - maybe Germans aren't quite as knowledgeable. At any rate, a 0.001% estimate proves basic innumeracy.

  15. Yawn by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bawack Ubama Isn't godking anymore. That may come as a shock to California.

    California had its own emissions standards before Obama. That may come as a shock to racists looking for a way to pin all America's problems on him.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Yawn by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      California had its own emissions standards before Obama. That may come as a shock to racists looking for a way to pin all America's problems on him.

      Yes, because people aren't allowed to have differing policy opinions anymore. If you don't like something Obama did you're RAAAAAAAAACIST!!!!

      That's not what's happening here. What's happening is someone trying to pin something on Obama because Obama. And I can tell they're racist because their misspelling of his name in that particular way functions as a dog whistle.

      Seriously, is this the best you can do in a debate? Namecalling? No need to be correct or have facts on your side or anything like that.

      Seriously, the best you can do is ignore facts while shouting facts?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  16. You are forgetting the engine by PackMan97 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A 1998 basic civic got you 107 hp and 103 lb ft of torque. A 2018 basic civic gets you 158 hp and 138 lb ft of torque. The 2018 does push around a heavier can and the result of almost 50% better power and a slightly bigger and heavier car is the same fuel economy. For the most part we've made HUGE gains in fuel economy. We've just wasted them on more power and bigger cars.