Slashdot Mirror


Can We Decentralize the Web? (computing.co.uk)

This week the Internet Archive hosted an amazing Decentralized Web Summit, which united the makers who want to build a web "that's locked open for good." [Watch the videos here.] Vint Cerf was there, as was the technical product development leader for Microsoft's own decentralized identity efforts, several companies building the so-called punk rock Internet, "along with a handful of venture capitalists looking for opportunities." One talk even included Mike Judge, the creator of HBO's Silicon Valley, which recently included the decentralized web in its ongoing storyline.

Computing highlighted remarks by Brewster Kahle, the founder of the Internet Archive, and Mitchell Baker, the chairperson of the Mozilla Foundation. The ideology of the web's early pioneers, according to Baker, was free software and open source. "Money was considered evil," she said. So when companies came in to commercialize the internet, the original architects were unprepared. "Advertising is the internet's original sin," Kahle told the packed room. "Advertising is winner-take-all, and that's how we've ended up with centralization and monopolies."

At the conference, attendees presented utopian visions of how the future of the internet could look. Civil, a new media startup, proposed crowd-supported journalism using cryptocurrency micro-payments. Mastodon, a decentralized and encrypted social network, was commonly referenced as an alternative to Twitter. As Facebook and Google continue to monopolize the digital advertising ecosystem -- recent estimates say that the two companies control over 70% of digital advertising spending globally -- the promise of a decentralized web, free from the shackles of advertiser demands is fun to imagine.

Tristan Harris, who leads the Center for Humane Technology, "just hopes the pioneers of the new internet turn around to face the potential negative externalities of their products before it's too late," arguing that "If we decentralize the systems we already have without an honest recognition of the social harms that are being created -- mental health [issues], loneliness, addiction, polarization, conspiracy theories... then we've decentralized social harms and we can't even track them." But Tim Berners-Lee "remains hopeful".

"There's massive public awareness of the effects of social networks and the unintended consequences," he told Computing. "There's a huge backlash from people wanting to control their own data"... Meanwhile, there's the rise of "companies which respect user privacy and do not do anything at all with user data" (he namechecks social network MeWe to which he acts as an advisor), open-source collaborations like the data portability project (DTP) led by tech giants, and his own project Solid which is "turning from an experiment into a platform and the start of a movement".

"These are exciting times," said Berners-Lee.

131 comments

  1. I am betting on it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I give it 5 years, but I am betting on things like Ethereum and Tronix to get the job done. Torrents + Blockchain might stand a chance at replacing many L7 services. L3 is somewhat decentralized already, but I doubt there will be much movement in that space towards decentralization as I see it becoming more centralized.

    1. Re:I am betting on it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is needed is the removal of anonymity coupled with Trusted Computing and a Federally-operated and controlled network infrastructure.

      It's the only way to de-platform alt-right cucks, Trumptards, so-called "conservatives" (actually white-supremacist Nazis), Israeli Apartheid supporters, and nutbag libertards. We need to elect Democratic Socialists to clamp down on these hate groups IRL and to limit their ability to spread their toxic propaganda.

    2. Re: I am betting on it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. It's much better to have a population stripper of its rights and abilities by the left under the guise of "think of the children" and "ure may guard the "alt right"".

    3. Re: I am betting on it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fight them with the methods used for disrupting cults in general, not with censorship.
      Imagine that all tools of censorship fall into the hands of your adversaries. Better not to have such power available to anyone.

  2. Berners Lee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    He's a proponent of DRM on the web and shouldn't be given a platform at a conference like this.

    1. Re: Berners Lee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's obvious. We won't have decentralized web until we have perfect decentralized DRM.

    2. Re: Berners Lee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We had a decentralized system, it was called Usenet. It was entirely used for piracy.

      The required tech exists. Itâ(TM)s just the willingness to to censor or not carry certain content that is the problem. If you want a free internet you have to accept the fact that piracy, sex trafficking and black market goods will also proliferate.

      The ideal situation would really be to solve the identity issue with smart cards/usb Authenticators and and smartphones as 2FA so that using private services ( eg banking) require a physical token but using public services are available to all.

    3. Re: Berners Lee by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Um ... No. He doesn't like it but believes rightly so that it is a thing that isn't going away. He believes one standard devil is better than hundreds of competing ones. So, no, you can't call him a proponent, just a pragmatist.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  3. It's called Tor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Tor is already a decentralized web, and it needs a central list of initial nodes (either from the website or included in the download) to start up.

    It's also harder to use then simply going to google.com, slashdot.org, or some other website which can be easily remembered.

    1. Re: It's called Tor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But tor needs an existing transport.
      If you try to decentralize the actual internet, it will fail. Mesh networks are fine for relatively close endpoints, but get too many hops and things go south.

    2. Re: It's called Tor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freenet doesn't work. It keeps a static cache of child porn on your computer and any websites you try to visit that aren't cached won't load.

    3. Re: It's called Tor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because nobody has made it work doesn't mean it can't be done.

      The addressing doesn't have to be IPv4, you can have addresses more tightly knit to geographic position.
      That way when you get a packet you can rout it to your neighbor that lives south of you, or across the street if you know that the connection to the next city over is in that part of town.

      Once the packet gets to the right city the computers there will know better how to get the last part of the delivery right.

    4. Re:It's called Tor by pezezin · · Score: 1

      Tor isn't decentralized, onion sites work just like normal websites, just with more layers of encryption and anonymity.

      Freenet is decentralized.

  4. Community Planning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If we decentralize the systems we already have without an honest
    recognition of the social harms that are being created -- mental health
    [issues], loneliness, addiction, polarization, conspiracy theories... then we've
    decentralized social harms and we can't even track them.

    Do we need to track them? We do want to measure mental health issues, but that should happen on the real word for real people. Loneliness, addiction, polarization and conspiracy theories are also properties of modern cities, and that is all seeping into the net with the users. Could it be that the anti-decentralization arguments have a touch of opium of the people, or in this case of the government? Issues of property and control are hidden behind other issues that should have been dealt with by other means.

  5. Advertising may be evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But the web certainly wouldn't be as widespread as it is today without all these "services" that keep people addicted. Such services wouldn't have self funded without advertising.

    Just a shame advertising turned into an arms race of who could be more annoying and intrusive.

    1. Re: Advertising may be evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it shouldnâ(TM)t have spread that much ?

    2. Re:Advertising may be evil by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "But the web certainly wouldn't be as widespread as it is today without all these "services" that keep people addicted. Such services wouldn't have self funded without advertising."

      I agree addicting 'services' wouldn't be so pervasive without so much advertising driving investment, but if we're assuming a less profit driven internet then the web could very well have spread as much as it has today through other means like an increase in user friendliness, content relevance, efficiency, and the spread of public and non-profit infrastructure.

    3. Re: Advertising may be evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not, the web serves a vital function of keeping people somewhat accountable (it has diminished abuse of power by government), it keeps people up to date on the latest news and breakthroughs of humanity(hopefully inspiring the next "great idea"), it enables people to keep in contact with each and by extension allows people to care for a larger group of people(ignoring the obvious detracting parts of social media), it allows for new revenue streams reducing our governments inability to balance books and obviously cat videos! It has done many many wonderful things but the vast majority of those wonderful things are for profit. The web wouldn't be the marvel it is today without the amount of people online which in large is due to the profit driven companies running adverts.

      Personally I'd hate to have to open my wallet for everything I read, everything I search for. If I have to suffer a few ads (as long as they're not obnoxious) then the web truely is better through advertising.

    4. Re:Advertising may be evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the spread of public and non-profit infrastructure.

      Payed for by the taxpayer, e.i. me.
      --
      cayenne8

    5. Re:Advertising may be evil by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      Yes, so you can pay a lot less for internet access, and because the pipes are a natural fit for a publicly owned corporation.

    6. Re: Advertising may be evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The UK had publicly owned pipes at one point then we sold it and have been paying through the nose ever since.

      It's a sound idea in theory but when there are already so many causes eating into the public purse such things are a luxury the government would prefer to pawn off to corporations then get their cut via advertising revenue. It's much easier that way sadly.

    7. Re: Advertising may be evil by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "It's much easier that way sadly."

      Not sure it's much easier that way but I agree politicians are favoring private profits too much, and are lying about it or too naive to realize that's what they're doing.

    8. Re: Advertising may be evil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry I should have said "it's easier that way" (for them).

      It would be great if the infrastructure to host content were in some way subsidised or paid for outright by the ISP fees. I would even be happy on the basis of a portion of the bill going to websites I visit in lue of advertising. Although it would mean more tracking it would probably be preferable to the tracking currently in use by advertising companies. The small micro transactions would probably be too costly to implement.

  6. We need -centralization- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    With all the terrorists and pedos coming out of the woodwork (the LGBT-P fiasco), might it be a good idea for more centralized monitoring? If it saves just one kid, this is worth it. Plus, decentralization brings fragmentation. Look at the Android versus iOS ecosystems. You want centralization. Really, you do.

    1. Re:We need -centralization- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't give a fuck about your kids. Be a better parent.

    2. Re:We need -centralization- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say the P in LGBTP is coming out of the woodwork. They've been around for decades. They used to even march in pride parades here in Seattle in the mid-70s. NAMBLA is even nearly forty years old. They're mainly based in NYC and SF, but they also have a presence in Seattle.

    3. Re:We need -centralization- by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 1

      (the LGBT-P fiasco)

      Oh I see, so some bullshit that is completely made up is justification for centralizing the web? Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

      --
      Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
    4. Re: We need -centralization- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes lets spy on everyone without warrant. that sounds like a free country

    5. Re:We need -centralization- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (the LGBT-P fiasco)

      Oh I see, so some bullshit that is completely made up is justification for centralizing the web? Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

      He's just trying to distract away from the nazis & MRAs losing their platforms because they want freedom to dox and harass people fighting against their genocidal agenda.

  7. Short answer: no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Long answer, the same: no, we can't. Everybody who matters wants centralization. Centralization means better efficiency and shareholders love that. Centralization means better control, and governments love that. Centralization means simplicity, and the overwhelming majority of users love that. If you could build a decentralized system, only a minority would go there and the government would stop you, if big money doesn't sue you into the gutter first. We lost the internet, and it's time we accept that and move on.

    1. Re:Short answer: no. by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The issue isn't technical. But cultural and political.
      The old days of the Wild West Web is gone or nearly out. Freedom is at a cost of safety. Every new control that makes us safer chews up a Little bit of freedom. Any new freedom we obtain can adversely affect our safety.

      Freedom is good. But so is Safety. There are some things at a small cost of freedom we can get a lot of safety. their are other that at a large cost of freedom we only get a little safety. So normally there should be a happy balance.

      However freedom once given is much harder to regain then safety lost. And cultures and people in general when have their safety threaten will more likely react without fully measuring their decision, as they feel the need to protect themselves.

      Back in the 1990's the Web was free, there was all kinds of stuff that you can get anonymously and without much consequences. But early on reputable institutions avoided it AOL/Prodigy/MSN because it was too unsafe, and if they were going to have people pay for service they needed a closed garden to protect themselves. However the Web Caught on and Institutions were mostly forced to get in, and the every man started using it.

      The 1990's web had an average level of education of a Jr. in College. Then with average Joe getting in it went down to an 8th grade education. This meant we couldn't trust common sense to protect people. So people ended up downloading viruses/spyware and just general crap that killed their $2,000 computers. So they got angry and then went to more centralized locations Google that weeded out the "Dark Web" then to Facebook which was a self contained ecosystem. In general people are much safe now. I am no longer getting called in a panic because someone had corrupted their PC with millions of popup adds.
      This happened at a cost of our safety. Now with a few key site hubs, like Facebook information about us is never easier to get to.

      If we want a decentralized web again, we need our culture to realize it will no longer be as safe and accept that.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Short answer: no. by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      We lost the internet, and it's time we accept that and move on.

      We didn't lose anything, "We" never had it to begin with. De-centralization conflicts with the private ownership model of capitalism. Don't think so? Think of all the games that are now drm infested and the software and hardware is slowly being removed from users control due to the technological illiteracy of the masses. Game software has literally been stolen but the masses are too stupid and illiterate to care... while the elite educated minority can't hold these companies accountable from 100's of miles away.

    3. Re:Short answer: no. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      We lost the internet, and it's time we accept that and move on.

      Was it ever really ours? Does anyone really believe that it wasn't seen as a mechanism of control and surveillance from the very beginning? I'm thinking back to the Usenet days, and there were definitely cops hanging around there from the beginning. I know this because I've met some of them.

      If you're on the internet and have created some dim corner where you think nobody's watching, you can be sure you're being watched.

      We never lost the internet because we never really had the internet. Why would you think something that sprang from DARPA would be a platform for liberty?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:Short answer: no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the fight is lost and keeping on fighting is futile, throwing the towel is the smart thing to do.

    5. Re:Short answer: no. by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Well, that's a reason, the bigger reason is more fundamental.

      How do you find anything?

      The web was decentralized, but unless you knew where to go, you were stuck. Web sites had "links" sections that helped bring you to related sites and other interesting things, but unless you knew where to start, it's hard.

      It's why we have search engines - but that centralizes the web. Instead of linking to websites and getting information, we evolved into searching for information directly.

      You could say something like "Wikipedia" but there to is a central repository of information, with links to outside sources.

      That's really the big problem - a decentralized Web is hard to discover what information you need to know. If you know where you need to go, great, it's easy. But without centralized directories, it gets tricky - try finding anything on the web without using central repositories like Wikipedia, Google, or Reddit or similar centralized sites. Try doing it by conjuring up URLs.

      It's why the early web was people grabbing domains like "sex.com" or "pets.com" and the like - if there was no search engine, then people might try conjuring up a URL.

      About the only other way was internet "Yellow pages" type things, which could be obtained online, in print, or via your library.

    6. Re: Short answer: no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correct answer wrong reason. Everyone thinks that centralization is a government thing. Not really. Tell me how do you know where a computer you want to contact is? With changing addresses there us no way, so you need the equivalent of a phonebook to find them. Well that is a centralized source. There will always be a gateway like this. Unless you can find another way to solve a path in O(1)

    7. Re:Short answer: no. by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Nobody owns the web. It's still very much decentralized.

      I have no idea what video games has to do with anything.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    8. Re:Short answer: no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The old Bush line again - you can only have safety by giving up freedom. Actually freedom makes you safer, and you are a coward and a fool.

    9. Re:Short answer: no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Safety over freedom.....

      Not the way I have heard this put before. By some smart people.

  8. hello? didn't the web start that way? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    as an old geezer, the web from long ago was decentralized - even if it was decentralized again, it would just go back to how it is now in a few years - the only way to stop it is to ban people from using it, which is an interesting idea by itself, but as long as the same public that gave us three tv channels, cable tv, and so on are using the web, it will inevitably be centralized by gatekeepers ... what would work is to completely ignore paywalls - google and all of them would never link to anything behind a paywall - let the paywalls get customers in some other way - never have a free site that links to anything that isn't public - but never gonna happen

    1. Re:hello? didn't the web start that way? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stop using facebook and google (fuck you vint serf)

    2. Re:hello? didn't the web start that way? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes and no. It was decentralized from the availability standpoint but it could still be controlled. In the early days, control was simply unplugging. Nowadays, you drop routes or if you are really determined, cut the fiber. You won't get true decentralization until you get true decentralized layer 1. Do that and the rest becomes easier.

  9. Usenet! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I just wanted to say Usenet.

  10. Got a few things that might actually do the trick by wertigon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    1. Decentralised DNS. The DNS crew have shown they cannot be trusted to 100%, which is a really bad thing when it comes to free speech online. Perhaps a bitcoin style ledger could be of help here.

    2. A decentralised social network solution with monetisation options. Think about it, Youtube and Facebook rolled into one for all sorts of content imaginable, a pay-as-you-go buffet where you can choose whether to pay with your eyeballs, your time, or your money. Awesome stuff if it ever get started.

    3. The realisation that the web of the nineties, where everyone and their grandma could make a website, is pretty much dead. And no, I do not mourn those Geocities webpages, I rather mourn the fact that it is way too hard to get stuff online without selling your firstborn son to one of the big dragons (Google, Facebook etc).

    Guess I'll keep dreaming of these things forever though...

    --
    systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
  11. Challenges of decentralization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Decentralization also means running your own hardware and software. Hardware is a small expense. Software is a big challenge for the vast majority of the population (let's call them our friends & family). Our challenge is to make the software so easy that the average facebook user could deploy it as easily as installing the facebook app on their iPhone/android.

    As far as software goes, there's plenty:

    Cloud storage (nextcloud, owncloud, etc)

    Collaboration platform (rocketchat)

    Mail (dovecot/postfix, kolab, zimbra, etc)

    Streaming (plex, kodi, ampache, etc)

    etc..

    1. Re:Challenges of decentralization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Decentralisation doesn't mean providing services. Rather it means anybody can be a provider and be paid to provide the service for me - with enough incentive there would be plenty of providers everywhere. It's the game theory behind blockchain.

  12. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  13. Redecentralize by alternative_right · · Score: 2

    I thought this interview with Francis Irving of Redecentralize.org said a lot about the benefits of a decentralized internet.

    We should have been making eCommerce protocols, rather than implementing everything over HTTP and HTML.

  14. Yes we can! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And by "we" apparently that means Microsoft and some venture capitalists "looking for opportunity". Yeah, really looking forwards to that.

    1. Re:Yes We Can! by bobstreo · · Score: 1

      Close your computers and meet other people. They would also want to be discovered.

      Do you want to be on a terrorist watch list?

      Only terrorists meet other people, in public instead of never leaving home and the Internet, /s

    2. Re:Yes We Can! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I'd like to start going out and meeting people. But I'm afraid people won't like me because my avatar doesn't really resemble me in any way whatsover. Even though today is Saturday, I think I'll just stay in my bedroom and post to Slashdot. It's way safer.

    3. Re:Yes We Can! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm with you on this. I won't mind how you look - and you shouldn't mind how I look. Then we can meet. :)

  15. The good and the bad by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 1, Interesting

    1. Decentralised DNS. The DNS crew have shown they cannot be trusted to 100%, which is a really bad thing when it comes to free speech online. Perhaps a bitcoin style ledger could be of help here.

    2. A decentralised social network solution with monetisation options. Think about it, Youtube and Facebook rolled into one for all sorts of content imaginable, a pay-as-you-go buffet where you can choose whether to pay with your eyeballs, your time, or your money. Awesome stuff if it ever get started.

    3. The realisation that the web of the nineties, where everyone and their grandma could make a website, is pretty much dead. And no, I do not mourn those Geocities webpages, I rather mourn the fact that it is way too hard to get stuff online without selling your firstborn son to one of the big dragons (Google, Facebook etc).

    Guess I'll keep dreaming of these things forever though...

    All fine and good.

    In an attempt to start a meaningful dialogue, how do you feel about The Daily Stormer having a website available on the internet, having a site name entry in the distributed DNS system, and having a home page and videos on your decentralized social network?(*)

    This is the choice you will have to make when implementing the next internet: in order to make it truly open for everyone, you will have to accept that there are people whose opinion you don't agree to and who have just as much right to free speech. Management of such a system has to be completely decoupled from mob rule, else we'll be back to where we are now.

    A completely open internet would allow distasteful speech and people you don't agree with to have a voice.

    Are you willing to take the bad with the good?

    (*) For those who don't know, Daily Stormer is an actual nazi website that lost their original website name after registrars dropped them as customers while keeping the original name, disallowing them from using the name at another registrar.

    1. Re:The good and the bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The very fact that no one would be able to remove the content of the Daily Stormer would hearten me because then in some bizarre world where their fantasies put them in charge, there would be no way for them to remove content challenging a neonazi regime. The internet would be as much for them as for the resistance. You would have to compete in the market of ideas.

      Shutting down bad ideas by removing them from sight is no way to fight them. This puts them in the position of a victim (an act was intentionally forced upon them against their wishes) and in our culture, there is nobody with more power than a victimized party. People listen to victims.

      The only way to combat a bad idea is with a good one.

    2. Re:The good and the bad by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      So I'll raise your nazis a "think of the children".

      Specifically, think of your underage daughter who was convinced to take some nudes. Nudes that someone has decided to spread all over. Now, what do you as a parent do? What do you do about the deep fakes which involve you personally?

      If this is the current censored web, you have some recompense, and you can be sure that the FBI will be looking for the people who are making, hosting and sharing those images. In the decentralized anon web, the solutions are limited.

      I'm not arguing for censorship, but there does need to be a thought for how to handle outright abuse and criminal activity. If I don't want to see child porn, there needs to be a mechanism for black/gray/white listing content, as well as people. If someone wants to spam me and everyone I know with deepfakes of me doing disgusting shit, there needs to be some reputation mechanism to dampen that sort of abuse.

      As an example, I browse /. at +2. Friends get a +2 so they tend to be visible, foes a -2 so they don't show up unless they are saying something a lot of people think is useful, and anon gets a -1, because they're generally shitty and spammy. All those comments are still there, but there's at least some filtering. Friends of friends and friends of foes can inherit some of that moderation, to help smooth things out.

      To your nazi example, I'd point to the historic /. trolls. GNAA, Moo Cow, APK, etc. They have existed and in some cases still exist, and largely are invisible to most. If you want to wallow in the filth, it's there, but there's a mechanism to keep people's ankles clean.

      If we decentralize the web, there's going to have to be a mechanism at least as good as /.'s, or nobody is going to want to use that platform except said trolls. At that point, might as well just go to 4chan and be done with it.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    3. Re:The good and the bad by Escogido · · Score: 1

      Why do you keep conflating technical availability and consumption preferences? No information network is of much use without a discovery mechanism, which can be either curated (webring / portal) or automated to some extent (search engine). People who are interested in a topic will find a way to create such an mechanism, and use it as long as it suits their goals; it's entirely opt-in and demand driven, so no single person or company gets to decide what qualifies as "wallowing in the filth" and what doesn't - not any different from the way it works today.

      As for the content you wouldn't like to see hosted somewhere, I personally feel it's a lost cause. Deepfakes, from what I understand, aren't principally much different from stand-in cutouts, so there will eventually be a service where you can take any existing video, have it analyzed where faces and possibly skin colors / body types on the picture in each frame are, then feed it pictures of an existing person, and get a deepfake video with the person you need. In fact I'm fairly sure this already exists today somewhere for shady purposes, but technology for mass production is not there yet; at current rates money is placed on deep learning, I give it 10-ish years to appear.

      I believe the way we would be fighting this as would be more about automated crypto-signing of video streams on hardware level, and then restricting video players to only display content from white-listed sources, which has the advantage of not having to fight those who produce and host the offending material. There are problems with that approach as well, but as long as there is a way to opt out, it should be fine. And as for people who would be happy to consume fake content, well, like I said, to me this is a lost cause, and we have to get over it.

    4. Re:The good and the bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. For a system like this to realistically go anywhere, it needs a GLOBAL reputation system that transcends one-site. It needs to be baked in to the very protocol itself.
      If people want to self-censor, go for it, but global always-on censoring for everyone is a no-no, because then it makes it open to abuse by people that want something blocked. (which can be done trivially via spamming with multiple virtual nodes, which is already done now on multiple reputation systems, central and decentral!)

      The funny thing, however, is most of the people pushing for these systems would argue against their own system if you used this argument instead of coming out with the reputation system.
      It's funny that.
      They can't even look beyond a "DECENTRAL NO BIG BAD GUBMINT" idea to actually come out with A PROPER system.
      Not all, of course, they aren't doing any talking and handwaving, they are the ones actually DOING.

    5. Re:The good and the bad by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      > Why do you keep conflating technical availability and consumption preferences?

      Because people tend to use the defaults of their software. Many tech companies have systems to measure how many of their users ever change default options settings... it's pretty small. Whatever the settings are when the software ships out, that's the settings most people will use, even when those settings are suboptimal or undesirable for a particular user. Therefore, however we [software writers] set up the initial preferences, that's how the web will look to the general public.

      > and then restricting video players to only display content from white-listed sources

      Who establishes that whitelist's initial value? LG and Samsung who make the TV? Google or Microsoft or Apple who make the browser? Or are you prompted when you first set up your system to "Pick from one of these third-party list maintainers: TotC*, 4Chan, US Clear List, .gov Standard, or [enter URL]..." See the problem? Even when the lists are open to be plugged in by anyone, there's a finite list of initial lists that get promoted by whoever owns the network. At every level, technical availability and consumption preferences are tied together. So unless the list creation is decentralized and automatically built as you browse, you run right back into the centralized control problem.

      * Think of the Children

  16. Yes We Can! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Close your computers and meet other people. They would also want to be discovered.

  17. Distributed "holographic" storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't take it down, unless you take everything down.

  18. WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The web is already decentralized (if you exclude the browsers' victory in banishing self-signed certs). The fact that tons of websites choose to use one or two services is a business decision, not a technical one. You don't need advertising, you could run your own advertising, and you can manage your own payments and subscriptions. But people don't because it's easier to use whatever's popular at the moment. They could choose to include a free plug-in advertising framework which they self-host and manage on their own, but instead they choose to use a 3rd party service and pay them instead. The sites don't care about you, they only care about making money. Thus none of this is a problem for them.

    The biggest obstacle is greed and people too lazy to learn. The others are ISP port blocking, ISPs banning servers, and most ISPs having tiny upload speeds. Business class net service isn't required for personal site, so don't tell me you have to upgrade to business service, which isn't even available in a lot of residential zoned areas.

    1. Re:WTF? by Jerry · · Score: 1

      The web is already decentralized (if you exclude the browsers' victory in banishing self-signed certs). The fact that tons of websites choose to use one or two services is a business decision, not a technical one. You don't need advertising, you could run your own advertising, and you can manage your own payments and subscriptions. But people don't because it's easier to use whatever's popular at the moment. They could choose to include a free plug-in advertising framework which they self-host and manage on their own, but instead they choose to use a 3rd party service and pay them instead. The sites don't care about you, they only care about making money. Thus none of this is a problem for them.

      The biggest obstacle is greed and people too lazy to learn. The others are ISP port blocking, ISPs banning servers, and most ISPs having tiny upload speeds. Business class net service isn't required for personal site, so don't tell me you have to upgrade to business service, which isn't even available in a lot of residential zoned areas.

      At last, common sense in this distributed web argument.

      The number one legal reason why most people cannot participate in the "Decentralized Web", if that web means using P2P protocols like IPFS, or other tunnels built using blockchain, is that the Terms of Service of *MOST* ISP's include a paragraph that customers agree to when they contract for Internet service: they cannot host an Internet server.

      Becoming a server for the web content of other sites is exactly what IPFS, I2P, ZeroNet, and similar blockchain based P2P technologies do. With a reasonably fast computer with an i7 CPU, NVidia GPU, 6GB of RAM and 60MB of Internet bandwidth, I installed four of the most popular, one at a time, to experiment with them. The IPFS resulted in my computer HD becoming the home of 200+ other sites, each taking 200MB for a total of 40GB. The worst was the effect IPFS had on my performance. It's CPU usage ranged from 4-6 core (and adjustable setting) and it took half of my bandwidth (also an adjustable setting). At one time the globe depicting the world, with lines projecting perpendicularly from the surface depicting the various websites I was connected to, had nearly 600 lines in it and I could barely use my computer.

      And, Joe and Sally Sixpack will NOT be able to install or run IPFS and its brethren even if their ISP didn't forbid them from allowing their computers to be used as servers. If, by chance and with lots of geek help, they did get IPFS (for example) installed on their computers, they would NOT be able to use it because the list of hashes pointing to the websites they are hosting do not give any indication of what is on those remote servers that they are backing up. It's not like surfing the current web. IPFS is klutzy to learn and klutzy to use. While the presence of child porn is a possibility that would keep sane people from letting strangers store files on their machine, potential malware is an even bigger threat. So is illegally obtained data like movies and pirated games that should be licensed. If caught with that stuff on your HD, regardless of how it got there, you can expect fines in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and even jail time.

      Huge Terabyte speed trunk lines connect major locations around the world. They enter each country at a few points, usually via undersea cables or buried lines crossing borders, and are terminated at central points with the facilities to handle the traffic. Such facilities are monitored closely by their respective governments, IF the government is not the "ISP". Joe and Sally do not connect to big or small trunk lines. Smaller trunk lines lead to middle tier distributors and the ISPs contract with them. Joe and Sally contract with a specific ISP. They won't allow Joe and Sally to use their personal computers as an Internet server because Joe and Sally would be competing with them in the server market. Joe and Sally will have to purchase Int

      --

      Running with Linux for over 20 years!

    2. Re:WTF? by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      My ISP doesn't prevent running servers. I also don't live in the US.

      It is not the point however. You can rent a small dedicated server in a datacenter for $10/month or so, which is probably better for your power bill and reliability than running it at home. You can run a web server or whatever you fancy on it.

      Decentralization doesn't mean every user should be on their own. I mean you can got to your local farmer and buy a milk bottle and still call thats a decentralized model. You don't need to milk the cow yourself.

    3. Re:WTF? by BrianMarshall · · Score: 1

      The fucking Internet is still here.

      Any "decentralized" scheme you want can run on the Internet.

      If your ISP doesn't let you run servers (or put up a personal page?), buy web hosting from Network Solutions for about $150 per year.

      NetSol isn't the cheapest but they are very good. The default free phone support is pretty good. if you have bought enough domains (10?) and such to be a "Gold VIP" member (not joining anything - they just recognize you as a valuable customer) the phone support is extremely fast and fantastic - people that know what they are doing and can usually fix a technical problem the phone - log out, log back in and the problem is gone.

      Anyone can basically use the web as they did 20 years ago, except it seems that many ISPs block Usenet.... I don't know how much that is used anymore. More clumsy to setup but still available via websites for a fee.

      As the parent-post noted, the Internet is decentralized. No one forces you to use Facebook for your personal experience on the web.

      --
      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
    4. Re:WTF? by BrianMarshall · · Score: 1

      "Money was considered evil..."

      Starting from this premise rarely leads anywhere good.

      --
      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
    5. Re:WTF? by BrianMarshall · · Score: 1

      Unless you like cat pictures.

      --
      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
    6. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fucking Internet is still here.

      Which is so far from a decentral network it isn't funny.
      Why do people keep thinking this?
      ARPANET and the Internet are exact opposites.
      They are NOTHING alike. They barely even share the same foundations. The packet switching systems are nothing alike, nor are any of the protocols.
      There is a reason ARPANET died.

  19. Who do I get in touch with? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been working on a plan to decentralize the snot out of everything for a while. Who do I need to get in touch with to get this going?

    1. Re:Who do I get in touch with? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Who do I need to get in touch with to get this going?"

      Please send a $500 cash good faith donation (100 dollar bills only) for membership along with your CV to:

      Word Wide Web Decentralization Project
      Membership Committee
      Attention: Mr. Isaiah Mugambo
      PO Box 4714
      Ikorodu, Nigeria
      104211

  20. I'll gladly take the bad with the good, because.. by Larsen+E+Whipsnade · · Score: 1

    1. That's life, and there's no escaping life.

    2. There's no one out there I trust to decide on my behalf what's bad and what's good.

  21. NO! by DatbeDank · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, but this "kum bi ya" internet needs to run on magical unicorn farts crap needs to end with a harsh reality check.

    It costs $$$ to run the infrastructure that runs the internet. It takes man power, energy, and an assortment of various other folks with expertise to keep the lights on. And guess what? Advertising pays for all of that. You know what doesn't pay for that? A tip jar. I'm sorry guys, buy FOSS can only do so much and a "tip jar" isn't enough to keep the lights on something this big. Sure you can do a lot with add-on corporate contracts, but let's be real with ourselves: it takes real hard cash to lay out all of that fiber.

    The only thing that needs to be "decentralized" are the folks like Verizon and ATT who feel the need to keep gobbling stuff up. You're utility companies. Get over your bloody selves and accept that you will perpetually be a slow growing stock and not a sexy entertainment company.

    On an unrelated note, I find it ironic that a lot of these "information wants to be free" types from the early days of the internet were more than happy to receive a paycheck from their much maligned military industrial complex. Irony at its finest!

    1. Re:NO! by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      From https://decentralizedweb.net/

      We are convening those who want to build a web that...

      Remembers. Forgets. That’s safe. That cares about people. That’s a marketplace. That’s a public square. That learns. That’s magical. That’s fun. A web with many winners. A web that’s locked open for good.

      Magical? Woah, they actually DO want a "magical" web. I thought you were kidding.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong.
      Advertising doesn't pay the web - the web was around before advertising. It was paid then too.

      Advertising pays for facebook, perhaps. Not infrastructure.

    3. Re:NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enjoy your Youtube without that advertising. Oh wait!
      If it wasn't for Google owning Youtube, it would have died years ago.
      It's never made a single cent.
      The fact Google run it on their own CDN is the only reason it is still around.
      What's that, you were thinking about DTube when you read Youtube?
      Yeah, I'm sure people will love waiting for their videos to be seeded to the network. LOVE it.

      What's that, you prefer streaming instead?
      Good luck with that.
      Realtime decentral streaming lmao, fuck me even thinking about that gives me a headache.
      I guess we can always stream at 144p.

  22. Never going to happen. by SirAstral · · Score: 2

    New things get the benefit of being open for a while but as is human nature more than enough of someones are going to come along and decide what you are doing with it must be regulated.

    It is the basic nature of humans. adults regulate the children, economics regulate the adults, and government regulates it all. You can slice and dice it up however you like but the end result is NEVER different. It will be regulated.

    Even in the ever anti-regulation (is that really a thing or just gas people emit?) state of texas you need to a permit to handle unpackaged food.
    https://www.learn2serve.com/te...

    There is even a temporary suspension in some areas for training for hurricane relief.
    http://dshs.texas.gov/food-han...

    Isn't it nice that your legislators are so busy that you can't even legally carry a tray of food from the kitchen to a table without a license or permit of some kind in some places?

    Like I said, stop with these pipe dreams a free and open internet is no longer possible because it is no longer new enough to escape the clutches of human meddling. There are numerous calls to regulation on it by businesses and lay people and it will become just another arm of the bureaucracy. It's not prophecy, it's not politics, it is just flat human reality! Or you could say everybody's religion. Because that is tribalism in it's most basic form. Grouping up to gain power to tell people how to live and is as natural for humans as talking to each other!

    1. Re:Never going to happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump-tard cunts like you make sure that will never happen.

    2. Re:Never going to happen. by SirAstral · · Score: 1

      I am not pro Trump, is there a reason you think that I am? Or are you the type of person that assumes anyone not agreeing to your dogma is automatically a Trump supporter?

      Here is a news flash for you, there are more than just Democrats and Republics in the world. Perhaps you are not able to view or comprehend the world as more than just either R vs D?

      And as far as making sure nothing will happen? You are greatly mistaken, if anything Trump is more likely to cause the same counter stroke effort in the left that Obama caused in the right.

      It looks like President George Washington warning in his farewell address is coming true...

      "I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

      This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

      The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty."

      Even though the founding fathers of this nation were just humans almost every single one of them on their own posses more wisdom than the entire government collectively today. A true shame that they were, even then, still able to predict that we would become like we have now, even warned us what would happen and despite the wonder of the internet we will not learn. We will never learn.

      History teaches only one lesson, that people will not learn it and will constantly repeat it.

  23. I thought of trying to fix Tor... by Larsen+E+Whipsnade · · Score: 2

    but here's what holds me back. I'd be a johnny-come-lately to a long established culture, with its own established norms and shibboleths.

    I can get alone fine with people so long as there's nothing at stake I care about. But having a few beers together is not at all the same thing as working on a project together.

    I could maybe go solo and see how much I can fix things with just a forked implementation and maximum interoperability. But I don't have the know-how to head up an open source project.

    Behind every technical problem lurks a people problem.

    1. Re:I thought of trying to fix Tor... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are alternatives to Tor, such as I2P, Freenet, GNUnet, and ZeroNet to name the big players.

  24. All in one place by darkain · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Decentralized Web Summit" - "which united the makers"

    Yes, lets bring all the decentralized people into one single centralized place!

  25. eCommerce protocols? That ship has sailed. by Larsen+E+Whipsnade · · Score: 1

    Unless you've got really major marketing dollars to get everyone to switch over from their old ways.

    The time to solve a design problem is long before it becomes obvious. Or, if you can't manage to spot it early enough...

    They say make one system as a prototype and throw it away, then go design a better one. But the existence of a user base makes this advice impractical. The Web was a prototype-quality design that got established as a standard, because people were idiots.

    It's probably way too late to do it right.

    1. Re:eCommerce protocols? That ship has sailed. by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      So... let's see... a computer virus that wipes out all the computers globally. Then some fast-growing trees that grow along political boundaries and grow so thick [and strong and fireproof] that they form effective walls between communities. They're also made of metal to interfere with EM signals, and their roots destroy buried cables. Now, cut into tiny groups, maybe individual cities, every location builds their own network. The trees proactively prevent interference for 20 years, then mysteriously die, allowing all the disparate protocols developed to interact again.

      I can't even see it plausible as science fiction. :-)

  26. Eddie Bernays started that... by Larsen+E+Whipsnade · · Score: 2, Insightful

    long before the Web. You can't say they should have seen it coming, because it had already come, decades before.

    Allowing deep cross-linking of images was the fatal mistake. If they hadn't done that, probably no one would ever have come up with all the abuses that followed.

    It's so damn simple. Keep ads on the same server as the site. Make them part of the site, under control of the site owner, who will lose his users if he doesn't police the ads. Don't support anything else in the protocol. Don't even put the idea of doing it any other way into PHB's heads.

    And no cookies, except for session ID. Don't even have the concept of a "cookie" but have a header line for session ID.

    But that's all too late now.

    1. Re: Eddie Bernays started that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's so damn simple. Keep ads on the same server as the site. Make them part of the site, under control of the site owner

      1995 called and wants its failed attempt at online advertising back. Local ads means easily faked ad impressions.

  27. Is and Has Been Decentralized by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The web has been and still is decentralized from both a physical and logical perspective, it only appears centralized to the noobs who no nothing about it or believe Gor invented the internet.

    1. Re:Is and Has Been Decentralized by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      eh? very few ways to connect to the web in most places. and some of those providers will restrict content or delivery rate of content.

  28. P2P Search Engine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it feasible to create a peer to peer search engine that uses a 'wisdom of the crowd' voting and page ranking system to prioritise results? The problem I have with searching is bias.

    1. Re:P2P Search Engine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'wisdom of the crowd' voting

      Voting of any kind is open to abuse. Doesn't matter how many safeguards you try to put in place, someone will outthink you. I've went over countless different ideas that could be tried, all of them are open to abuse.
      The only solution is self-censoring. But humanity aren't mature enough to do that.

  29. Obviously not, as Caesar pointed out by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    No. Because then you would have two (or more) webs.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  30. The problem is where the people are. by shess · · Score: 2

    These problems didn't start with Google and Facebook, the starting point was more like Eternal September, when AOL met USENET. Back in the "Good old days", things were better because you had to work to get on the Internet, which meant you were skimming off the cream of the crop. Not everyone agreed with each other, but everyone was from the upper part of the distribution, so they could disagree sanely, and they could manage to hold more than one idea in their head at once and thus work together in spite of differences. Nowadays, the Internet is an average over plain old humanity, and not a small human-scale group, it's all of them essentially at once, so of course it sucks. It sucks both because advertisers and other manipulators see that concentration of people and thinks "I can make money off them", but it also sucks BECAUSE THE PEOPLE DEMAND IT. Pewdiepie and Logan Paul were enabled by YouTube, but they were created by consumers. President Trump was enabled by Twitter, but created by voters.

    Basically, the original post is discussing a technical solution to a social problem, and it's pissing me off that all of these smart people are focusing on the wrong problems (this general meme is all over the place these days). Yes, we should figure out a way to pare off some of the worst self-reinforcing aspects of Facebook and the like, but that's a materially different problem than "We need to replace Facebook entirely with something which is totally antagonistic to the entire reason Facebook is even successful in the first place." We _could_ manage to modify Facebook, but there is no chance that we'll replace Facebook, unless someone more compelling (and most likely worse) comes along.

    So be clear, this isn't a "worse is better" argument. I think people can do better. I just think that all of the incentives are not in that direction, and that ignoring the incentives is the surest route to failure. This is a "perfect is the enemy of good enough" argument, where we're going to suffer with it for another decade until knowledgeable people get off their asses and do _work_ to fix things instead of spending their time on pie-in-the-sky redesigns.

  31. Anarchy in the UK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess we are truly fucked when the definition of punk-rock internet is backed by venture capitalists.

    Not even in the half-truth/half-conspiracy way like punk rock was in the sixties. But in the clear open.

    I want off this ride.

  32. You must have one authority in some cases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Certain functions can't be decentralized, like Domain Names. What is to stop multiple authorities from saying that they are the official site. Companies invest a ton of energy into their domains. They will fight like hell from having the possibility that someone else can set up an identical domain name.

    1. Re:You must have one authority in some cases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TLS and its ilk have already taken care of that. Associate domains with public keys, and follow the Web of Trust.

    2. Re:You must have one authority in some cases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If anything, we should dispense with the monopoly on names entirely, as it gives an illusion of security where there is none. DNS alone and even DNSSEC require blind trust, and provide a central point for subversion by national actors and other powerful criminal entities. You can't trust site authenticity by name alone; it must be associated with a trusted public key to secure the communication. In fact, the name shouldn't even matter really, except as a convenience to the user who should be free to apply names to trusted keys in any way they like. Continuing to rely on centralized naming/certificate authorities reinforces a dangerous delusion.

      Ubiquitous and user-friendly key management is the real problem, and it still needs work, both for servers and user identities. The other part of the problem is fundamentally broken protocols that assume names are unique and that ownership is even possible. Protocols should be revised to accept keys instead or some form of keyed names.

  33. Monopolies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's how we've ended up with centralization and monopolies.

    I do not think that word means what you think it means.

  34. Decentralized ... I must be missing somethng. by bn-7bc · · Score: 1

    Hmm we have myultiple host/compute providers with infrastructure in multiple locations all over the world telcos have multiple pops and peering lcations we have multiple cdns, even multiple ondersee fiber links. I must be missing somerhing, but this seems goute decentralized to me, so what am I missing? Any info is appreciated as Iâ(TM)m shore there is some thing rather basic Iâ(TM)ve missed.

    1. Re: Decentralized ... I must be missing somethng. by bn-7bc · · Score: 1

      Oh yea besides the assignemt of globaly unique resources such as AS numers, and globaly unigue IP space, but I cant see how thus ciuld be adminisrered any other way but Ikm deffenetly not sn exert so I leve thrpe furtgervduscusion to more knowlageble people have a nice day, an pardon me foe commrnting on my own comment, I wish slashdot had a way to edit posts after the fact as, meany it not most forum and commenting system have

  35. Who want to decentralize by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    I note presence of Microsoft people, who would not be allowed there if the web was Microsoft-centered.

  36. Re:Got a few things that might actually do the tri by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pushing for decentralized DNS shows a lack of understanding of how DNS works and a lack of common sense. Decentralized stuff like ToR is slow and useless for daily activities.

  37. EditorDavid, failed novelist? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    EditorDavid's summaries are long and he keeps killing off my favorite characters before I even get to the next paragraph!

  38. Meshworks, Hierarchies, and Interfaces by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    by Manuel De Landa: http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/me...

    The conclusion: "To make things worse, the solution to this is not simply to begin adding meshwork components to the mix. Indeed, one must resist the temptation to make hierarchies into villains and meshworks into heroes, not only because, as I said, they are constantly turning into one another, but because in real life we find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties of these cannot be established through theory alone but demand concrete experimentation. Certain standardizations, say, of electric outlet designs or of data-structures traveling through the Internet, may actually turn out to promote heterogenization at another level, in terms of the appliances that may be designed around the standard outlet, or of the services that a common data-structure may make possible. On the other hand, the mere presence of increased heterogeneity is no guarantee that a better state for society has been achieved. After all, the territory occupied by former Yugoslavia is more heterogeneous now than it was ten years ago, but the lack of uniformity at one level simply hides an increase of homogeneity at the level of the warring ethnic communities. But even if we managed to promote not only heterogeneity, but diversity articulated into a meshwork, that still would not be a perfect solution. After all, meshworks grow by drift and they may drift to places where we do not want to go. The goal-directedness of hierarchies is the kind of property that we may desire to keep at least for certain institutions. Hence, demonizing centralization and glorifying decentralization as the solution to all our problems would be wrong. An open and experimental attitude towards the question of different hybrids and mixtures is what the complexity of reality itself seems to call for. To paraphrase Deleuze and Guattari, never believe that a meshwork will suffice to save us."

    As a political example of the appropriate need for balance between meshworks and hierarchies, here is an excerpt from and essay where conservatives call (propertarian) libertarianism the "Marxism of the RIght": https://www.theamericanconserv...
    "The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not freedom, but one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in that it makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one can be rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoonâ(TM)s wife. A family is in fact one of the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it derive from relations that we are either born into without choice or, once they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from with ease or justice. But security, prosperity, and family [as well as health and community, I'd add] are in fact the bulk of happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern governments."

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:Meshworks, Hierarchies, and Interfaces by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      Privacy, security, freedom: pick two.

      It's an old triad that we are having to balance in new ways.

  39. We had it all by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    With newsgroups, p2p, forums, websites, a few search engines that actually got results.
    Now we have social media, shadow bans, deranking search results, US party political social media removing content and accounts, SJW.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  40. The problem is China by Nocturrne · · Score: 2

    We have to find a way to make the internet in China open and anonymous; If not, the direction will not change.

    Close to 1bil people are using the internet in China, either on mobile or PC/Mac. All of them are locked into the Chinese intranet that is only partially connected to the outside world. The rest of the internet is mostly blocked or throttled into oblivion.

    Politicians in the free world are now heading in the same direction, since China is able to get away with it so easily. Sadly, we created the technology and even sold the hardware the Chinese use to create their internet oppression.

    It has to start with Google. If they wanted to (they don't) they could put everything they do on a new internet layer, fully encrypted and anonymous. All major websites and services would have no choice but to use it.

    Larry Page, Sergey Brin - if you don't fix the internet, you have failed. Instead, you will be remembered as the ones who screwed us all and did nothing but waste time playing around with boats and airplanes.

    1. Re:The problem is China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't a technical solution to authoritarian regimes. It is down to the people of China to fix their government.

      If China can't control what is distributed on some hypothetical distributed web, they'll just ban people from using it instead, leaving the choice of using a censored internet, or none at all.

  41. Re:Got a few things that might actually do the tri by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tor is just shit, though. Also because pedos are using it to traffic childporn torrent data.
    Torrents destroy Tor because the high number of connections to other peers, which it can't handle properly.

    There are plenty of torrenting systems that are decentral and get considerably higher throughput than Tor on a GOOD day ever did.
    A good few years back, I managed to download the entire Stargate Continuum film in about 40 minutes over Tribler. And that was with only a few seeders.

    It can be done. Tor is just shit.

  42. Berners traitor Lee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, he's a sellout traitor whore.
    DRM doesn't belong on the web. We don't need corporate garbage content, but they need the web. Or they could stick with the appstore ghettos.
    Either way, if you've ever rented a DRM product or bought an "app", you're a cuck.

  43. It always has been decentralized by DogDude · · Score: 1

    It is decentralized. It always has been. Anybody can put up a web site/page/server on any device. People may call it decentralized, because all they use it Facebook/Google/Amazon/Twitter all day, but that doesn't mean the Web is still not out there.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
  44. IF ads wouldn't INFECT/TRACK/SLOW US? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: I'd never have had to release APK Hosts File Engine 2.0++ 64-bit for Linux & BSD h t t p : / / a p k . i t - m a t e . c o . u k / A P K H o s t s F i l e E n g i n e F o r L i n u x . z i p (remove spaces between characters & download) OR APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-1 32/64-bit for Windows https://www.google.com/search?... ... apk

    MULTIPLATFORM for Windows & Linux + BSD variants keeping you SAFER & FASTER online vs. a myriad of threats (botnets, cryptominers, malware, malscript etc.) as well as more reliably connected (vs. DNS redirect poisoning security issues OR being down) + more anonymous (vs. script tracking + DNS request log tracking too).

    * ... & neither would Malwarebytes (whose subsidiary hpHosts both HOSTS & RECOMMENDS my work above) in their new addon https://blog.malwarebytes.com/...

    APK

    P.S.=> ... & accept NO substitutes for the best (see above)... apk

    1. Re:IF ads wouldn't INFECT/TRACK/SLOW US? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop spamming you retarded asshole

  45. Hosts do that & China agrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject & APK Hosts File Engine 2.0++ 64-bit for Linux & BSD h t t p : / / a p k . i t - m a t e . c o . u k / A P K H o s t s F i l e E n g i n e F o r L i n u x . z i p OR APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-1 32/64-bit for Windows https://www.google.com/search?...

    * MULTIPLATFORM for Windows/Linux/BSD keeping you SAFER & FASTER online vs. threats (botnets, cryptominers, malware, malscript etc.) + being more reliably connected (vs. DNS redirect poisoning security issues/being down) + more anonymity (vs. script + DNS request log trackings).

    For FASTEST local verified resolution hosts do what you wish: Even CHINA imitated me via an idea I implemented before 'em http://theregister.co.uk/2017/04/26/boffins_supercharge_the_hosts_file_to_save_users_plagued_by_dns_outages/

    APK

    P.S.=> Used for my TOP 100 fav sites I spend most time @ online to assure I reach them faster + more reliably (supplementing DNS) too placing 'em @ TOP of hosts cached in RAM & you can too... apk

    1. Re:Hosts do that & China agrees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even CHINA imitated me

      Stop lying you spamming asshole

  46. My Solution -- Mesh Network by Slicker · · Score: 1

    I've been continuously revising a mesh network design. There are two layers: hosts and map servers.

    Host's provide:

    * Sandbox in which to run Map Servers, each of which may have:
    * Ability to swap self with another Map Server, at will
    * Network Connectivity
    * Memory
    * Processing Time
    * Optional Resources -- extensible but examples include persistent data storage, user interfacing services, etc.

    Each Host will earn "promises" for the resources it provides to others. The promises are a form of currency, redeemable for any services. The main idea is that if a human connects his/her computer to the mesh, he/she can allocate how many resources are made available to others. The more resources others use of his/hers, the more that person (or his/her host) may use from others. These promises may be used, however, for any kind of purchases. So in effect, leaving one's computer online acts as a kind of minimum basic income.

    Map Server's provide:

    * Reputational Identity Service
        Identities are offered to any agents (human or otherwise) that keep the actual individual's anonymous but maintain a reputation based on the identity's transactions with other identities. For example, Hosts and Map Servers have identities. So may people or programs. An identity maintains General Reputation as the sum of all received Specific Reputations. After any transaction, each party to the transaction may "complement" the other's Specific Reputation(s), such as "timeliness" and "quality" but may be any term the complementer decides to use. Each complement is given as a percentage of that identity's General Reputation, drawing down proportionally from previously complemented others, as necessary. So when deciding on whether or not to conduct a transaction with another identity, one may consider its reputation. And one's complements are more or less powerful depending on its own complement's received. Time since birth may also be considered. So complements from one of high esteem, esteems oneself the more so.

    * Global matching of services sought with services offered.
        An agent may post services sought and/or services offered. The mesh keeps them organized and identifies matches. This is to eliminate unwanted advertising. It also serves to let supplier's know what others are seeking so they don't have to guess what they need to bring to market. The hope is that this will efficiently match ends with means, growing the economy with far less wasted time and guesswork. Also, services sought and services offered are defined in an organic semantic notation (no rigid schemas, as with RDF). So you may creatively describe as many details and sub-details as you like. They are posted in the form of a distributed Tree Graph database.

    * Virtual geography
        Map Servers are organized into communities, each of which maintains a particular region of a single virtual world, expanding north, south, east, and west from virtual latitude zero, longitude zero. A community manages the physics of all objects with its region of responsibility. The purpose of this is to provide a consistent structure for browsing, such as markets. The virtual world will be interacted with in a protocol enabling textual, 2D, or 3D graphical interfaces.

    1. Re:My Solution -- Mesh Network by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      I've been continuously revising a mesh network design. There are two layers: hosts and map servers. ...

      All of that is all well and good, but until the typical consumer internet connection doesn't just have upstream bandwidth equal to its downstream bandwidth but upstream bandwidth higher than its downstream bandwidth, it's not going to gain any traction at all.

      Asymmetrical connections in the ISP's favor will forever prevent a decentralized web.

  47. What?? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    The web is decentralised. Go ahead. Make a web site. Done.

    What they mean is, can we unseat Facebook and make money off the web instead of them. Oh, and maybe make it not addictive too. Yeah, probably not.

  48. Dear JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" the "ne'er-do-well" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" the "ne'er-do-well" do-nothing: I don't OBEY a pusscake like YOU that STALKS ME via UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous offtopic trollings... got it?

    * I hope so (but sincerely wonder if an IMBECILE like yourself can read @ all to understand it).

    APK

    P.S.=> Of course, IF you'd like to MEET ME IN PERSON & TRY MAKE ME OBEY YOU? You're more than WELCOME to try to my face man to man (so I can put you in the morgue, you chicken dick little cocksucking motherfucker)... apk

    1. Re:Dear JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" the "ne'er-do-well" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Post your address.

    2. Re:Dear JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" the "ne'er-do-well" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's doxxed himself a number of times. Even here, on Slashdot.

      Like everything else, it's just exaggeration and narcissism.

      APK. Internet bad-ass.

  49. Dear JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" the "ne'er-do-well" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" the "ne'er-do-well" do-nothing: I don't OBEY a pusscake like YOU that STALKS ME via UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous offtopic trollings... got it?

    * I hope so (but sincerely wonder if an IMBECILE like yourself can read @ all to understand it).

    APK

    P.S.=> Of course, IF you'd like to MEET ME IN PERSON & TRY MAKE ME OBEY YOU? You're more than WELCOME to try, straight to my face, man to man (so I can put you in the morgue, you chicken dick little cocksucking motherfucker)... apk

  50. Work for it little anonymous ANTIFA bitch... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Work for it little bitch (for once in your WASTED do-nothing life) & you're so STUPID - I'm EASY to find (I use my real name unlike a pussy in you) & have been "doxxed" MANY times on /. by other do-nothing "ne'er-do-wells" like you (big deal - I severely DOUBT you'd even survive on the way to my home where a pusscake like YOU would get eaten alive & assraped on the way, lol).

    * SEE SUBJECT: OF COURSE WORK's A FOREIGN CONCEPT TO YOUR KIND THAT HIDES BEHIND MASKS ANTIFA BOY, lol... welfare's MORE your style & being an ANONYMOUS weasel!

    APK

    P.S.=> You're a ZERO & a STALKER that HIDES from UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous, ya Pussy... apk

  51. Re:Work for it little anonymous ANTIFA bitch... ap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Got it you are the pussycake you claim everyone else is.
    APK the weak scared little keyboard warrior, can't defend his work, afraid to defend himself.

  52. You're the one HIDING.... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're the one HIDING behind UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous posts STALKING me you little bitchass pussy... lol!

    APK

    P.S.=> Keep projecting what you are (I love it)... apk

  53. You're the one HIDING Antifa maskboy, lol... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're the one HIDING Antifa "maskboy" behind UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous posts lol... not I.

    APK

    P.S.=> Like I said - anytime you wannbe "badasses" want to MAKE me STOP? You're MORE THAN WELCOME to come to my face, man to man IN PERSON, & TRY do so (I'd just hospitalize you in seconds)... apk

  54. I am APK the LORD of HOSTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am APK the great "LORD of HOSTS", a.k.a. AlecStaar or Alexander Peter Kowalski.

    See subject & APK Hosts File Engine 2.0++ 64-bit for Linux h t t p : / / I . a m . a . f u c k i n g / a s s h o l e . r e t a r d . z i p (remove spaces between characters & download).

    I am the godlike creator of various GUI front-ends for other people's configuration files.

    Watch as I claim I win every argument when in reality I know I lost but that won't stop me from proclaiming my victory.

    When presented with facts I rebut them with wild speculations, false support, and out of context quotes

    All of my accomplishments revolve around me being proven to be an annoying spamming asshole

    See me be proud of my inability to be a functional adult

    Bask in my debilitating mental illness

    Hear me tell stories about me living large drinking miller lite in my ramshackle duplex with a roommate at age 54.

    Watch me spew some word salad because I can't string 2 words together in a coherent manner.

    I just don't understand why every site I post on everyone makes fun of me, it can't be because I am a shit stick but instead because they are all Ne'er-do-well SOYboy Jealous JOWIEs.

    Witness my descent into madness

    APK

  55. Why do you speak as me & you're not I? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See my subject & answer that: & Why do you also STALK me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous posts as well? AFRAID to stand behind your lies??

    * THIS I have to hear, lol - it WILL truly be a classic I'm sure!

    (CAT GOT YOUR TONGUE SUDDENLY? You wouldn't answer LAST TIME I ASKED IT + YOU DOWNMOD "HID" IT (the sure sign of YOUR total SELF-defeat) https://it.slashdot.org/commen... )

    Plus, since you say I'm the "Lord of Hosts"? My "portrait & themesong" https://www.youtube.com/watch?... so SATAN, get thee behind me.

    APK

    P.S.=> Grow up you obsessed loon who not only IMPERSONATES me but also STALKS me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous posts constantly... apk

  56. Re:You're the one HIDING Antifa maskboy, lol... ap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Says the little bitchass pussy who pees in the corner everytime someone might take him up on his offer.
    APK can't can't defend his work and can't defend himself.
    Come on pussycake post your address.

  57. You're the one HIDING as UNIDENTIFIABLE ac by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're the one HIDING & STALKING me as UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous! Do you even HAVE a home (as I do fully paid off) or do you live under a bridge like the troll you are?

    Nothing to show for yourself either in the way of accomplishment in computing either (prove otherwise - oh, that's right - you CAN'T when you don't have a damn thing to show like you).

    * You're a JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" loser that STALKS me via UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous posts since you are AFRAID of me, no questions asked.

    APK

    P.S.=> Your JEALOUS is SHOWING "Lil' Jowie" but nothing else to show for yourself @ all - hahahaha... apk