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EPA Staff Objected To Agency's New Rules on Asbestos Use, Internal Emails Show (nytimes.com)

Top officials at the Environmental Protection Agency pushed through a measure to review applications for using asbestos in consumer products, and did so over the objections of E.P.A.'s in-house scientists and attorneys, internal agency emails show. From a report: The clash over the proposal exposes the tensions within the E.P.A. over the Trump administration's efforts to roll back environmental rules and rewrite other regulations that industries have long fought. Asbestos, a naturally occurring mineral and known carcinogen, was once common in insulation and fireproofing materials, but today most developed countries ban it. The United States still allows limited use in products including gaskets, roofing materials and sealants. The proposed new rule would create a new process for regulating uses of asbestos, something the E.P.A. is obliged to do under a 2016 amendment to a toxic substances law.

212 comments

  1. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    How about starting to toss some patents while we're creating solid rules on what not to use to keep people alive? Needn't limit it to 2 if you do it that way.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  2. "but today most developed countries ban it" by rlitman · · Score: 0

    No, no we don't ban asbestos. Never have, as it is naturally occuring. We ban synthetic substances all the time, but asbestos being banned is just silly, even if it makes a lot of sense to reduce our exposure to it. Asbestos is found in all sorts of things in trace (and higher) levels. Ever wonder why companies are moving away from talcum powder? Any idea what's in your brake linings?

    1. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Asbestos-caused diseases are responsible for the deaths of 1 out of every 125 American men over 50 who die

    2. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1


      but asbestos being banned is just silly, even if it makes a lot of sense to reduce our exposure to it.

      Lysteria is naturally occurring, but yet we ban any milk that we find contains it. We ban "natural" things all the time.

      Any idea what's in your brake linings?

      Yes, and with very few exceptions it's NOT asbestos. Asbestos is allowed to be in brake linings, but it hasn't been used in them since at least the 1990s. Even then it wasn't all that common.

      I change my own brakes, and I definitely have looked into this for my own health.

    3. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      you brain has facts addled and mixed up like scrambled eggs.

      Talc is a clay.

      Asbestos is fibers from weathered rock of silicate minerals. It is natural and you are breathing natural asbestos right now. There are six types of asbestos, Two of them are known to be hazardous, and one more of them suspected to be hazardous.

    4. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by iggymanz · · Score: 2

      pffft, getting your "facts" from 'asbestosnation.org'? maybe they're just a tad, you know, biased?

    5. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course you can ban a naturally occuring material, you're just taking a literalist approach to what banning actually entails.
      As Russia mines 55% of the worlds asbestos minerals (followed by China), this will come as a great boon to Russian industry.

    6. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actual statistics are radically different, and actually prove that "mesothelioma deaths decreased among persons aged 35–44, 45–54, and 55–64 years". It's really a concern for a tiny sub-population over the age of 75 who tended to work with raw asbestos insulation before its dangers were well known.

      --
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    7. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no we don't ban asbestos. Never have, as it is naturally occuring.

      If by "we" you mean the shortsighted greed driven US industry, then you are right. Asbestos is naturally occurring as any mineral is, meaning you must actively look for it. It won't fall in your face naturally.

      The ban is about industrial use... as in "using asbestos in the composition of something produced by man", so please stop being silly.

    8. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      You should take your own advice. Talc has traces of asbestos fibers in it, both being mined, which is why lawyers are becoming covetous.

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    9. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are idiot. Those people are false flag crisis actors trying to impose SJW marshall law on all of US. Normal everyday Americans like us don't fall for your liberal lies any more.

      Yeah. I'm wondered how many of those who support Asbestos use actually have had it in their house? Live with it for some years first, and then we talk.

    10. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by rlitman · · Score: 1

      Exactly. You beat me to it. Asbestos is found in talc, and talc is NOT naturally found without asbestos. Its just that some has more and some has less. The same thing goes for vermiculite, which is also used in all sorts of everyday products.

    11. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by rlitman · · Score: 2

      This. Also, asbestos becomes more dangerous in those who smoke, and not only was smoking nearly ubiquitous among the generation of people who worked with asbestos, but it is also on the decline.

    12. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no we don't ban asbestos. Never have, as it is naturally occuring. We ban synthetic substances all the time, but asbestos being banned is just silly, even if it makes a lot of sense to reduce our exposure to it. Asbestos is found in all sorts of things in trace (and higher) levels. Ever wonder why companies are moving away from talcum powder? Any idea what's in your brake linings?

      You are making a huge assumption without looking at the reason why Asbestos is being restricted in the US (not ban). It is because of its very fine fiber which could get into our lung by inhaling it. Allowing the use of it inside a residence increase the chance of it being exposed to those who live in the house. If you own a house which is insulated with it, you should be very careful not to replace the insulation by yourself because you could be exposed to it and spread it out into the air. Using it in break lining is much lower risk. Still, it shouldn't be deregulated to be used back into residences.

    13. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      pffft, getting your "facts" from 'asbestosnation.org'? maybe they're just a tad, you know, biased?

      I haven't checked their facts, but neither have you, so you're making a baseless attack. If a problem is identified and a group is created to increase awareness of the problem, then there's still a problem.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada banned asbestos. In 2018.

      lol

    15. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      Of course you can ban a naturally occuring material, you're just taking a literalist approach to what banning actually entails. As Russia mines 55% of the worlds asbestos minerals (followed by China), this will come as a great boon to Russian industry.

      I think the notoriousness of Asbestos will ensure that most people are well aware of how dangerous it is and will steer clear of anybody peddling products featuring 'Asbestos!! The new miracle material of the future' although there may be a few particularly passionate right-wingers who may actually make it their material of choice for insulating their homes as a way of sticking it to the 'liberal elites'. Plus, I kind of doubt that the asbestos mining industry is crucial to the bottom line of Russian industry as a whole so Russia is not particularly likely to experience a complete economic reversal of fortune as a result of any boost its Asbestos miners derive from this development.

    16. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by rlitman · · Score: 2

      We don't ban milk with listeria. We ban raw milk in some places. That's not the same thing. Good for you doing your own brakes. I do mine too. Do you have a vehicle with drum brakes? Do you drive on the highway where trucks or cars over a few years old are present? Do you breathe while driving? I'll let you in on a little secret. Asbestos is still in all sorts of brake linings (and most clutches too). It may not be present in your top of the line ceramic or organic kevlar pads, and many OEMs are removing it too, but it's still in most of the cheap aftermarket stuff that most people buy (particularly as replacement parts). https://www.freedoniagroup.com... https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/... Asbestos used to be in automotive gaskets too. That's one use where it's pretty much gone now.

    17. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Jaime2 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Asbestos is a unique health threat. Unlike arsenic or radium, the physical shape of an asbestos specimen affects its toxicity. Large fibers and any amount of asbestos embedded in a matrix get filtered out in the nose and throat. Really small fibers don't cause damage as they pass through the lining of the lungs and exit the body. Its the three to ten micron fibers that will kill you by turning your lungs into scar tissue.

      Asbestos embedded in pretty much anything is rarely dangerous. Even the mountains that are very high in asbestos content in California and Colorado pose little health risk. Asbestos processed for use as insulation is the most dangerous, asbestos on wear surfaces like brakes are also something to worry about.

      BTW, I used to work in the asbestos removal industry and I have given training on the health effect of asbestos. For a few years, I worked as a lab tech determining if material was asbestos containing. We did low tech analysis where we verified that nothing existed in a sample that was of the correct morphology to be hazardous asbestos - in which case the customer could forego the expense of determining if it really was asbestos. We did high tech analysis where we used an electron microscope to determine the exact crystal structure of an item under study to conclusively determine if it was or wasn't asbestos.

    18. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by PPH · · Score: 1

      Any idea what's in your brake linings?

      Also catalytic converter heat shields. When my car reached 25 years old and I deleted the cat (no more emissions tests) the asbestos pad sandwiched between sheet metal was disintegrating.

      I wonder how much of this stuff gets blown out onto the roadside for cyclists to huff as they ride?

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    19. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah not quite true. Asbestos was used in a lot of stuff, brakes for example. It was still mixed as a "semi-metallic" brake pad/shoes right up through to the late 90's as well as the industry(automotive and truck) were weaning off of using asbestos. Pretty much anyone who was an apprentice during those times(they'd be in their very early 30's to 40's now) has a chance for it, we already knew it was an issue though so the idea was to limit breathing the dust by hosing down the brakes, drums, pads, shoes, with water before you started hammering away with a hammer to pull it all apart. These days? You'll be lucky if your car brakes are anything but ceramic, it's only the cheaper models that don't use it. And semi-metallic pads don't contain any asbestos after the phase out. But let me tell ya, I've got the tools, brochures, promotional materials, toolboxes, and all the rest from the 60's,70's, 80's and 90's on the benefits of using "genuine asbestos brake pads" made by lots of companies. Probably the best known aftermarket was raybestos and they manufactured pads and shoes that were pure asbestos based right up until 1989, which means those shoes and pads were probably still in the market until 2001 or 2003.

      Asbestos pads, tape, paste, wrap, and such were used still in the 90's as well in the collision industry too. Asbestos wrap was very popular with mechanics when you needed to heat up parts and hopefully avoid lighting the vehicle on fire, of course now the only real option you have is soaking shop rags in water and with luck that'll get you through whatever you're heating up. Also, lead used as a filler in body damage was used right up until the mid 1980's for anyone who's curious.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    20. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 1

      The dangers of asbestos were known to the Romans....
      The US gov't knew well asbestos killed people, they just didn't have any better alternative product when it was needed, and as such covered it up

      (I worked in the industry...it was no secret how dangerous the stuff was)

      --
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    21. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Solandri · · Score: 3, Insightful
      From the paper you linked:

      During 1999-2015, the mesothelioma age-adjusted death rate decreased 21.7% from 13.96 per million population (1999) to 10.93 (2015) (p-value for time trend

      So basically the mesothelioma death rate (from all causes, not just asbestos related) went from 1.396 per 100,000 to 1.093 per 100,000 per year.. Or a reduction of 0.3 per 100,000 per year. That puts the benefit of banning asbestos at the very bottom of the list of causes of death, even if you assume 100% of mesothelioma was caused by asbestos.

      The money we spent banning and ripping out asbestos probably would've been much better spent on things like PSAs to buckle your seat belt, or suicide prevention hotlines. Those have a death rate nearly a hundred times higher than the reduction in mesothelioma death rate. Heck, fires kill 5.0 people per 100,000 each year, so it's even possible that banning asbestos resulted in more people dying to fires than were saved from death by mesothelioma.

      Based on this one paper, it would seem that banning asbestos was a vast overreaction. Given the tiny scale of the problem, it probably would've been better addressed by stricter regulations mandating masks and filters during the mining and processing of asbestos, and manufacture of products containing asbestos, rather than a widescale ban. Kinda like how disproportionate news coverage of airliner crashes has caused us to spend more on preventing airliner crashes, resulting in air travel being 86x safer than cars.

    22. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >You are idiot. Those people are false flag crisis actors trying to impose SJW marshall law on all of US. Normal everyday Americans like us don't fall for your liberal lies any more

      The Russian bots are all over this site now. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

    23. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Do you breathe while driving? I'll let you in on a little secret.

      Ah, the old 'it never hurt anyone in the ambient environment' argument that Good Ol' Russiapublicans use to support radiation, cobalt, and other forms of pollution. Nice move.

    24. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by rlitman · · Score: 1

      I don't think that's asbestos. I believe that's a kaolin derived refractory fiber. It does look an awful lot like asbestos though, so I can understand the confusion. My understanding is that it's been several decades since asbestos has been used for new refractory applications in things like millboard,

    25. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are cherry picking to make a false point. Asbestos exposure doesn't kill you immediately, but it can seriously damage you over the long term and complicate your health as you age. Despite the regulation of asbestos, people born AFTER the regulation was implemented are still dying due to exposure. And various industry still try to skirt the law and ignore the danger.

      "The annual number of malignant mesothelioma deaths is increasing, particularly among persons aged 85 years, most likely representing exposure many years ago. However, although malignant mesothelioma deaths decreased in persons aged 35–64 years, the continuing occurrence of mesothelioma deaths among persons aged 55 years suggests ongoing occupational and environmental exposures to asbestos fibers and other causative EMPs, despite regulatory actions by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)*** and the Environmental Protection Agency aimed at limiting asbestos exposure."

      " 20% of air samples collected in the construction industry in 2003 for compliance purposes exceeded the OSHA permissible exposure limit. Moreover, asbestos products remain in use, and new asbestos-containing products continue to be manufactured in or imported into the United States."

    26. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by hey! · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sure, we don't ban the existence of asbestos, in the same way we don't ban the existence of mercury. But the use of these substances is heavily regulated so that they are either illegal or impractical.

      Asbestos use is limited under three major laws: (1) The Toxic Substances Control Act, (2) The Clean Air Act, and (3) The Consumer Product Safety Act. A number of other federal laws ban asbestos in places like schools. Asbestos is banned in the manufacture of a wide variety of products such as flooring felt, and use in commercial developments has been forbidden under the TCSA since 1989. However concrete-asbestos insulated pipes continued to be used in some niche industrial applications for some years after that.

      Deregulating asbestos is something which the Executive Branch cannot entirely do without new legislation. Even if it had the federal legislation, there'd still be local laws and building codes forbidding its use. Even if you got rid of those, you'd have civil liability. And if you could get rid of that, you'd have the fact that installing asbestos lowers a building's market value.

      The idea that federal bureaucrats can reanimate the dead corpse of asbestos insulation is even dumber than the idea they can win back the market share coal has lost to natural gas.

      --
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    27. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your understanding is very lacking.

      asbestos was never actually banned in the usa. we just put it where the idiot consumers can't get to it easy.

      they still do tho. like taking their cat convert apart.

    28. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      My apartment complex, and pretty much everywhere else in the region, has a proposition 65 cancer warning on it because of natural ground asbestos. Which is silly. But there is a danger on windy, dusty days -- precautions are taken by construction crews to avoid excess exposure on bad days.

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      This space intentionally left blank
    29. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And now all these people need to move.

    30. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      "mesothelioma deaths decreased among persons aged 35–44, 45–54, and 55–64 years".

      Of course mesothelioma deaths have decreased.Asbestos has been banned since 1973.

      A decrease in mesothelioma deaths thanks to a ban on asbestos is no reason to end a ban on asbestos. It's proof that the ban is working, and saves lives.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    31. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Gilgaron · · Score: 2

      Listeria monocytogenes is not allowed in food in the United States. Some other countries have looser rules.

    32. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      So basically the mesothelioma death rate (from all causes, not just asbestos related) went from 1.396 per 100,000 to 1.093 per 100,000 per year.. Or a reduction of 0.3 per 100,000 per year. That puts the benefit of banning asbestos at the very bottom of the list of causes of death [fivethirtyeight.com], even if you assume 100% of mesothelioma was caused by asbestos.

      Well now, hold on. The generation that was exposed to asbestos is still working it's way through the demographic meat-grinder. It was partially banned in 1973 and really still showed up in a lot of products through the late 1980s. So wouldn't it be a little early to draw assumptions like the one you're making? Maybe it would be better to wait and see what happens to the rate of mesothelioma deaths once the generation that has grown up asbestos-free hits their 60s and 70s.

      Except we won't be able to do that, since the degenerate administration in charge will now allow asbestos again. Oh well. It'll probably only be for a short time, but it will still complicate the analysis. It will be seen as another part of the shameful Trump legacy.

      --
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    33. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Bringing scientific facts to a Slashdot discussion is like bringing a neutron bomb to a slap fight. It will settle things for people, but the ACs and trolls will continue to argue as if nothing happened. Like cockroaches.

      --
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    34. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      No, no we don't ban asbestos. Never have, as it is naturally occuring. We ban synthetic substances all the time, but asbestos being banned is just silly, even if it makes a lot of sense to reduce our exposure to it.

      Asbestos is found in all sorts of things in trace (and higher) levels. Ever wonder why companies are moving away from talcum powder? Any idea what's in your brake linings?

      And where did that 'popcorn mica' packaging filler go? Ever wonder why it isn't used so much these days? Same as above: more than trace amounts of asbestos are typically found in mica.

    35. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Vertigo+Acid · · Score: 1

      Asbestos wrap was very popular with mechanics when you needed to heat up parts and hopefully avoid lighting the vehicle on fire, of course now the only real option you have is soaking shop rags in water and with luck that'll get you through whatever you're heating up

      Accepting that it's not quite as fireproof as asbestos, why won't Kevlar or Nomex work for this? At the very least, if you're gonna be doing a rag soak method, why not use a 'rag' that is itself relatively fire resistant rather than what I would assume is cotton or poly blend or something.

      --
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    36. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It will be seen as another part of the shameful Trump legacy.

      Isn't that what you want? You should be supporting this.

      Maybe it would be better to wait and see what happens

      Flip-flop from pro-science to science denier depending on political gain. The same tactic and the same words climate deniers use.

      Pathetic.

    37. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any idea what's in your brake linings?

      Squirrel guts. Those things are stupid.

    38. Re: "but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its dangers have been very well known since before the 1920's and well documented and studied since. MetLife commissioned a study then promptly buried the results because they happened to insure many of the companies that would lose tons due to workers lawsuits.

    39. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      you brain has facts addled and mixed up like scrambled eggs.

      Talc is a clay.

      Talc is NOT a clay, as most people know clay. Talc is a layered silicate compound, not a layered aluminosilicate (which clays are). Talc is also NOT soluble in water. Talc is a sheet-stuctured, crystalline material -- making it clay-like, but not a clay in the usual sense of the word.

      Asbestos (six minerals are in the category) have more fiber-based crystalline structures. Thus they break down into fibers (thin daggers), rather than the flakes of talc. Asbestos is not soluble in water, either, which is why thise little asbestos fibers hang around in people's lungs to cause mesothelioma (the daggers never dull).

      Clay examples:
      Kaolinite (i.e., kaolin)
      Bentonite
      Attagulpite

    40. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's bow down to your world view since you think you are an elitist.

    41. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by PPH · · Score: 1

      like taking their cat convert apart.

      It's taking itself apart.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    42. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Even the mountains that are very high in asbestos content in California

      "Warning! California Is Known To The State Of California To Cause Cancer."

      Damn! Now I have to go buy a new Irony Meter! :/

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    43. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone who works with these aramids can tell you exactly why. Cost. A 1 square foot piece of nomex or kevlar will end up being a $20 rag and for the general mechanic, there isn't enough margin to afford this. Kevlar doesn't exactly absorb water that well either, so you're stuck with only the heat resistance. The reason most mechanics have trouble with wet rags is that they tend to use old wet oily rags for this purpose.

    44. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Jaime2 · · Score: 1

      If you're looking for where to calibrate the meter, the answer is King City: http://www.mesothelioma-attorn...

      Although you probably shouldn't put a whole lot of stock in that website's characterization of things. The article states that Union Carbide held the opinion that asbestos was harmless in 1974, and it turns out my father was a Union Carbide employee at that time. His job was to go to their asbestos customers, educated them on the proper handling and risks, inspect their operation, and cut off any customers that were behaving recklessly.

    45. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can buy a welding blanket at HF for about $20.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    46. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by sjames · · Score: 1

      Most people are smart enough to realize that a ban on a naturally occurring substance means a ban on using that substance in a manufactured product.

    47. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by sjames · · Score: 1

      Those statistics demonstrate that curbing the use of asbestos was an effective measure that has actually saved lives. The people still suffering were exposed prior to the restrictions.

      It also suggests that loosening the restrictions will likely show up as an increase in deaths years from now.

    48. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by sjames · · Score: 3, Informative

      You forgot that mesothelioma is just one way asbestos can kill you.

    49. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by sjames · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't that people will run out and buy things proudly featuring asbestos. It's that they will unknowingly buy products that quietly and shamefully include asbestos because it bumps the profit margin up a tiny bit.

    50. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      Did you hear about the Federal ban on drop side cribs a few years back? That was done because a dozen infants were killed by them over the course of some number of years. Whereas elective circumcisions are estimated to kill 100 infants a year from complications like infection. As a society there doesn't seem to be a lot of reasoned thought about what we ban.

    51. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      being biased against dying a slow painful death is actually a good thing.

    52. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by eclectro · · Score: 1

      The lungs do not care about what category a substance belongs to. There are a whole class of minerals that are very "absestos like" that if inhaled will cause similar damage. In fact, any airborne small particulate matter should be considered harmful to health and precautions should subsequently be taken. Including sawdust even.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    53. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      If you're looking for where to calibrate the meter, the answer is King City: http://www.mesothelioma-attorn... [mesothelio...torney.com]

      Although you probably shouldn't put a whole lot of stock in that website's characterization of things. The article states that Union Carbide held the opinion that asbestos was harmless in 1974, and it turns out my father was a Union Carbide employee at that time. His job was to go to their asbestos customers, educated them on the proper handling and risks, inspect their operation, and cut off any customers that were behaving recklessly.

      Thanks for the reply. Born in the late '50s myself. Many, many people with political/ideological agendas and/or narrow world-views attempt to paint the past far differently than it actually was. There were just as many caring and conscientious people then as now, probably fewer now, actually.

      What has changed is that the population no longer shares the same values and culture to the same extent now that it did then thanks to group-identity politics, the "cultural diversity" meme which leads to islands of homogeneous mini-culture/religion/racial enclaves, and intersectionality and 'victim'-status as the measure of the power and relevance of your speech/message.

      This all culminating to stress a bloated, corrupt, and largely broken government, including the fair and impartial operation of it's services & functions, to the breaking point at every level, and a titanic government bureaucracy that seeks foremost to increase it's own size, power, and scope.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    54. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by rlitman · · Score: 1

      You can't torch on a welding blanket. HF welding blankets are fiberglass, and burn up more easily than you'd expect. I use a carbon fiber blanket. THAT holds up to a torch pretty well.

    55. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      HF's are rated to around 3000F, your proper cutting temperature for oxy-actyl is 6000-6350F.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    56. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      HF blankets if you're welding, but if you're pulling something apart? A blanket won't take the temperatures of oxy-acetylene very well, and catch on fire pretty quickly. Nothing really ever beat asbestos for that. All shop rags are cotton, too much crap in vehicle fluids will dissolve any other blend to even bother screwing around with. That's really all there is to it. HF's are rated to 3000F(1648C), your average cutting temperature for oxy-acetylene is 6,000F(3315). Cotton rags soaked with water? Cheap, very cheap. It also fits into areas where a blanket won't. Though some people have their own 1/4" to 1/2" curved steel plates they use when cutting.

      Really depends on the shop, but 9/10 guys who've apprenticed over the last 40 years will use soppy-wet cotton rags.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    57. Re:"but today most developed countries ban it" by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      most forms of asbestos are not known to do that, only 2 out of 6 forms. 1 more *might* but human evidence is not conclusive yet.

  3. Good news? by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 0

    >> new rule would create a new process for regulating uses of asbestos, something the E.P.A. is obliged to do under a 2016 amendment to a toxic substances law...Consumer groups say the agency should be looking for ways to prohibit asbestos entirely.

    So...government agency is following the law instead of random/anecdotal citizen input. Generally, I'd think this is a good thing. (If you want to entirely ban asbestos...work on passing that law instead of whining on SlashDot.)

    1. Re:Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So...government agency is following the law instead of random/anecdotal citizen input

      Nope, a research of the EPA's decision-making processes indicates that the very random anecdotes of Citizen Trump were the primary input.

    2. Re:Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      As with all of these gotcha stories against Trump, "government actually follows its own regulations for the first time in decades" is spun as the end of civilization and the next step toward Waterworld being reclassified as "prophetic."

    3. Re:Good news? by Rhipf · · Score: 1

      The EPA needs to look at the regulations of toxic chemicals due to the 2016 Frank R. Lautenberg Chemical Safety for the 21st Century Act (i.e."mandatory requirement for EPA to evaluate existing chemicals with clear and enforceable deadlines"). There is no statement in that amendment that the EPA has to relax the use rules on asbestos.

    4. Re:Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't for the life of me figure out why you were marked as Troll.

      OP was attempting to troll / misrepresent a good thing, and you called him out with a reasonable question.

      Far Lefties - must you do this ?

    5. Re:Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As usual for the apologia for Trump, his corruption-based handling of affairs is falsely defended as "following the rules" when it turns out they were actually making shit up, and can't seem to produce any substantial evidence of actual accomplishments. See their losses for the Muslim ban, DACA, Child Internment, North Korea, the EPA itself (oh yes, Mr. Cone of Silence had to quit, remember?), the inauguration, the voting commission, the Border Wall, and yes, even the Space Force, which is apparently just a way for the Trump cronies to sell logos of their fantasy legions.

      It's ok, they can totally break their own word by trying to deport somebody after promising they wouldn't. They can literally make up lies about somebody they're trying to deport! They can literally try to shill gaudy goods from the White House! Because we need to respect their authoritay! That's why we're going to force you to stand for the National Anthem at the point of a gun!

    6. Re:Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm done with this site

    7. Re: Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably because people have actually researched the situation and found that Trump isn't following the law, but falsely claiming he was made to do something as part of his practice of deliberately refusing to accept responsibility by his usual practice of deflection.

      Why do you blame your phantom leftists, and not ask Trump to be able to claim his own decisions?

    8. Re:Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's Russia propaganda workers, dude. Their goal is to frustrate and make people give up. I have to wonder why Slashdot is letting this happen. I seriously doubt that computer engineers, who are very pro-science and rationality, would be posting this irrational crap on Slashdot.

    9. Re: Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

    10. Re:Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, just donate to the Kill Vladimir Putin fund. Russia is a great country, but Putin need to die in a fire.

    11. Re: Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Space Farce lol

    12. Re:Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go home, Hillary. You're drunk.

    13. Re: Good news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're actually not relaxing the rules but adding new ones. Some people call for a complete ban, instead of these categories.

      Problem being the federal government needs to show a link to interstate commerce before it can ban a use. So a blanket ban wont be enforcable.

  4. can u smoke it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it gives me buzz?

    1. Re:can u smoke it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Points to you.

    2. Re:can u smoke it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cigarettes are toxic and carcinogen as the asbestos.

      And the people buys and smokes these cigarettes without another regulation that to be >18 years old.

    3. Re: can u smoke it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice strawman.

  5. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, who give a shit about things like peoples health or the environment we live in. Lets just do whatever the fuck we want!

  6. Let's Get rid of them all. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    However, a company harms one person - just one - its existence is forfeit.

    A multi billion dollar company somehow harms someone, it goes on trial like a person -corporations are people! - and if found guilty executed with it's management.

    So back when the Ford Pinto killed those people.

    Ford would have been liquidated and Lee Iococa (the executive in charge at the time) sent to the electric chair.

    And Tesla with its "autopilot" well, let's just say that Tesla wouldn't exist anymore and Musk would be dead now.

    1. Re:Let's Get rid of them all. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My new shoes caused a blister. Shall we cut off the feet of Adidas management?

    2. Re:Let's Get rid of them all. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Let us apply this to politicians, first. Then let's talk.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    3. Re: Let's Get rid of them all. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'll have immunity based on having destroyed or right to repair. 'Your honor, there deaths of those thousands of people cannot be it fault. Out customers had no right to remove the foil over the asbestos. They agreed to the 400 page Eula where we clearly state end users are not allowed to open the device for any reason. It's right there on page 398, clear as day in 3 point text. We cannot be held responsible for their reckless behavior.

      Did your wife like that pool boy I had sent over?'

      Or something similar.

  7. Yes like tax exemptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tax exemptions hurt the real wealth creators to benefit the parasite class. What's wrong with a flat 40% for the high income bracket, why split out investment income? see it could all be so much simpler.... (and suddenly most of the proponents of "simplicity" change their tone)

    1. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Investment income is generated by putting money at risk. There is less tax to encourage investment to offset the risk incurred. When you go to work and put in your hours, you are not risking any money. You will get paid. 100% chance. You are not putting your neck (or assets) on the line.

    2. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Immerman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And when you're investing, you're not spending a large chunk of your life for that money. Why should a supposedly democratic country have a tax system that explicitly encourages wealth concentration by taxing capitalists less than labor?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re: Yes like tax exemptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hit it on the head:
      Why is your capital income so much more important than my labor income that I need to pay 2x as much in taxes on it?

    4. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by NormalVisual · · Score: 2

      When you go to work and put in your hours, you are not risking any money. You will get paid. 100% chance. You are not putting your neck (or assets) on the line.

      No, you're putting your time on the line. Money and other assets? Those can be recovered or regenerated. Your time cannot, and wages are taxed as if your time had zero value. And by the way, there are plenty of folks that have gotten stiffed on paychecks, be it from a regular W-2 job, consulting/contracting, or whatever.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    5. Re: Yes like tax exemptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, there it is, the government should subsidize your risk. And as for there being no risk in working, you realize how stupid that sounds right?

    6. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 1

      Yup. And that's without getting into the bubbles that are generated when there are too many investment dollars chasing too few high-quality investment opportunities.

    7. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 0

      And when you're investing, you're not spending a large chunk of your life for that money. Why should a supposedly democratic country have a tax system that explicitly encourages wealth concentration by taxing capitalists less than labor?

      Er, because you do in fact have to have capital, you have to be able to accumulate it and invest it, in order to have any kind of modern economy?

    8. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure. You also need to have labor. So why should capital get preferential treatment?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    9. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capital is in the economy regardless of whether it's in a bank doing nothing or being spent on school supplies. Labor is ultimately what creates value. Nobody can feed themselves on a percentage bond increase.

      The people that constitute labor built civilization and keep it running. Hedge fund managers sit in their offices demanding more, more, more, without anything to give back to society.

    10. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Dragonslicer · · Score: 3, Informative

      When you go to work and put in your hours, you are not risking any money. You will get paid. 100% chance.

      Unless you're working on a construction project for Trump.

    11. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Nations have to compete for investment.

      If your nation's: AverageROI * (1 - CorporateTaxRate) * (1 - CapitalGainsTaxRate) is not competitive, your economy will be _shit_, as it should be.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    12. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      So why should capital get preferential treatment?

      People need to work so they can eat. People don't need to invest their savings to eat, usually. The government has a long history of tax incentives to promote "beneficial" activity.

    13. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >you're putting your time on the line
      and your health, often physically and psychologically

    14. Re:Yes like tax exemptions by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Why should a supposedly democratic country have a tax system that explicitly encourages wealth concentration by taxing capitalists less than labor?

      Because capitalists have more interest in low taxes for themselves than laborers have.

  8. New york times! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The racist news.

  9. Pops up in the most unexpected places... by The+Original+CDR · · Score: 1

    When the 85/87 interchange was being built in Silicon Valley, small hills on a lot were scraped down to become landfill for the freeway. Construction workers found a boulder-sized deposit of abestos. Caltrans picked up the tab for cleaning up that up. That lot became the future home of an auto dealership because it was so large and flat.

  10. Fear Mongering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All these articles are complete fear mongering. Asbestos is still completely banned in consumer products. All that this does is allow them in a regulated fashion to allow on a case by case basis some use of asbestos if required by industry. For example the chlorine industry heavily utilizes asbestos as filters in the creation of chlorine based products (PVC materials) and there really is no substitute material that can do the job. This is allowing companies like this not to be hurt economically where its outsourced to other countries.

    1. Re:Fear Mongering by Rhipf · · Score: 3, Informative

      If there is no alternative to asbestos in the chlorine industry then why are most plants moving to an alternative method of production.

      Many have already converted from either mercury cell or asbestos to a newer, safer option called the membrane cell process. Short of a complete conversion, many other plants switched from dangerous asbestos diaphragms to those made of polymers, that show no dangerous health risks.

      https://www.maacenter.org/blog...

    2. Re:Fear Mongering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some plants have not converted and are still importing up to 340 tons according to the blog you linked. The cost to convert is too high for these plants.

  11. mod parent up by bussdriver · · Score: 0

    Make Russia Great Again!
    Yet another pro-Russia move from Trump... no, those laws that passed forcing actions against Russia he just does them half-ass for now.

    1. Re:mod parent up by PA23 · · Score: 1

      Maybe there isn't anything really there and simply just another coincidence that Russia just happens to be the largest producer of mined asbestos remaining.

      or is it????

    2. Re:mod parent up by pastafazou · · Score: 1
      Maybe read the article first?

      Ms. Beck said that, since there is no ban on asbestos, no regulatory process currently exists to stop a company that chooses to put it in something like flooring or roofing materials. But under the rule, some of those ways of employing asbestos — which had over the decades become less common — would now be considered a significant new use. That will force companies to notify the E.P.A. and face an evaluate the risks.

    3. Re: mod parent up by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Trump has been pro asbestos for decades (according to an article I read). He probably had to remove it from some properties he owned, and like the slumlord he is thought his tenets didn't need all that expense. So here he is, still fighting battles from decades ago.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:mod parent up by PA23 · · Score: 1

      did you miss this section of the article?

      "Brazil had been the source of about 95 percent of all asbestos used in America, according to the E.P.A., but last year that country banned its manufacture and sale. Since then, Russia has stepped in as a supplier."

      The article then goes on about Uralasbest and how they are happy about the move and praising Trump.

  12. Next up by AlanObject · · Score: 2

    Let's bring back lead-based paints and gasoline.

    It creates jobs you know.

    1. Re:Next up by pastafazou · · Score: 1

      If you actually read the entire article, you might have a better understanding of current asbestos uses, restrictions, and what the actual proposed changes mean.

    2. Re:Next up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It means that Certain russians get more money because the only place in the world that produces asbestos is russia

    3. Re:Next up by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      Let's bring back lead-based paints and gasoline.

      It creates jobs you know.

      My Municipal Airport sells ONLY leaded aviation fuel for piston-engine planes.

    4. Re:Next up by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      My Municipal Airport sells ONLY leaded aviation fuel for piston-engine planes.

      What they sell is a form of avgas called 100LL. Take a guess at what the LL stands for. If you guessed Low-Lead and then further realised that it is very much different from any fuel that was used back in the day when cars used copious amounts of tetraethyl lead to increase octane then you deserve some internet points.

      The only cases where fuel with the same amount of lead is used as in the past are rare engines requiring very high octane e.g. 115 grade, special events for very unique aircraft, and some military cases.

    5. Re:Next up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The original reason for adding lead was not to increase the octane rating but rather for lubrication (especially of valves). The octane boost was a fortunate side-effect.

    6. Re: Next up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Low-lead' avgas contains more lead than any petrol sold for road use ever did.

  13. He doth protest too much by nitehawk214 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Trump claims asbestos is "safe". Trump has a lot of real estate. Hmm...

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    1. Re:He doth protest too much by pastafazou · · Score: 0

      Trump claims asbestos is "safe"

      citation needed

    2. Re:He doth protest too much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the Art of the Comeback, Trump writes:

      "I believe that the movement against asbestos was led by the mob"

      He goes on that the mob owns the asbestos removal companies.

    3. Re:He doth protest too much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      >https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/11/asbestos-trump-face-seal-uralasbest-russia

      Trump: "... asbestos is 100% safe after application."

    4. Re:He doth protest too much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, from application until demolition, sure, as long as there isn't unplanned demolition.

    5. Re:He doth protest too much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citation was given. What say you?

    6. Re:He doth protest too much by pastafazou · · Score: 1

      It looks like the citation has a bit more to it than "Trump claims asbestos is safe". The citation states he said "asbestos is 100% safe after application" in his book. I don't have a copy of the book to verify, but even so, that's somewhat different from claiming "asbestos is safe".

  14. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  15. Re:"attorneys and scientists" by Luthair · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ah yes, the stereotypical right-wing attacks on experts who have data and know what they're talking about.

    I sometimes wonder how many of these ACs actually believe the nonsense they spout or whether they're some loser sitting at a desk in China or Russia being paid peanuts

  16. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need to get rid of 2 regulations for every new one we create.

    Drain the swamp!

    BUT, do you have any idea how many permits it takes to drain a swamp?

  17. As well they should by TimeElf1 · · Score: 1

    Asbestos is nasty stuff, dying of Asbestos-related diseases is a horrible way to die. What's next bringing back DDT and PCB's?

    --
    Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
    1. Re:As well they should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asbestos is nasty stuff, dying of Asbestos-related diseases is a horrible way to die. What's next bringing back DDT and PCB's?

      You voted in criminals, don't go crying when said criminals start killing american citizens en masse. You deserve what and who you vote for. As they say shit in , shit out. Well there's plenty of shit raining down on you rednecks and everyone else as well.
      Make America Great Again hell yeah. One dead citizen at a time.

    2. Re:As well they should by Jaime2 · · Score: 2

      All true. However, asbestos can be used safely, so allowing it under a set of well designed rules does make sense. For example, the US has spent many millions of dollars to replace asbestos containing floor tile when there is so little risk in that particular product that it's likely that more people died in the resulting construction activity than would have died had in been left there. Even if the building was used as a daycare, heck even if the building was eventually demolished with explosives.

    3. Re:As well they should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asbestos is nasty stuff, dying of Asbestos-related diseases is a horrible way to die. What's next bringing back DDT and PCB's?

      DDT maybe. It has about the same toxicity as aspirin, caffeine and acetaminophen. It saved millions of lives by killing malaria carrying mosquitoes and its effect on predatory birds was overblown. Maybe some modern research would be prudent. If a mosquito borne pandemic were to occur, having DDT around would be useful.

    4. Re:As well they should by pastafazou · · Score: 2

      1. They're not "bringing it back". Read the article first.
      2. Asbestos is currently not banned in the US. Asbestos is currently used in many products. There are currently no regulatory processes that stop a company from using asbestos. This proposal will actually force companies to notify the EPA and go through a risk evaluation.

    5. Re:As well they should by rlitman · · Score: 1

      Agreed. The problem with DDT was not so much with the chemical as with it's irresponsible application. Today, we have substituted worse things instead, but get away with it by having tight EPA regulations on application. Knowing that, my though it that DDT probably should be brought back into the fold, in a way that is compatible with today's safer application practices. PCB's OTOH are just plain bad.

    6. Re:As well they should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right that it CAN be used safely, as can most dangerous things. The problem, as was stated in the article, is that the EPA will now only review 15* specific uses of asbestos. If someone wants to use it in something NOT on that list, the EPA will take a hands-off approach with regards to reviewing the shiny new product.

      * I found the proposed new rule and I only see 14 items on that list.

    7. Re:As well they should by TimeElf1 · · Score: 1

      Nah, I didn't. I voted but not for the orange one in the WH.

      --
      Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
    8. Re:As well they should by TimeElf1 · · Score: 1

      Eh, that will teach me to read the articles rather than trust the click bait summary.

      --
      Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted.
    9. Re:As well they should by Jaime2 · · Score: 1

      The new rules certainly shouldn't be approved as is. However, this isn't a fight about what uses of asbestos are within our tolerance of human health risks, it's about the fact that the proposed rules are procedurally stupid and full of loopholes. The coverage of this policy seems to be painted with the brush of rolling back regulation to an excessive extent when that isn't the issue here. If you read the actual complaints from the scientists ( https://int.nyt.com/data/docum... ), none of them cite any content in the new rules that is inherently unsafe, just that the rules are written in a way that if a use is left off the list, that use is by default allowed rather than prohibited.

      The comment I responded to equated this rules change to bringing back PCB's. This is not true for the reasons I stated. As a side note, he also equated it to bringing back DDT, while the extent to which we prohibit DDT seemed to be the cause of millions of deaths in impoverished nations around the turn of the century. This fact is certainly arguable, but it does make a good example that the real world is often a balance of several courses of action, all of which have negative consequences.

    10. Re:As well they should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, asbestos can be used safely, so allowing it under a set of well designed rules does make sense.

      Until Trump or his successors decide that using it safely costs too much, so we need to get rid of those pesky "well designed rules" AKA: regulations. *Gasp!* Then it will be completely legal to use it unsafely.

      BTW, you do know that asbestos causes lung cancer? Or how about that the only reason it wasn't banned outright in the US was due to it not being profitable enough to do so?

      Once again, more proof the only thing these idiots care about is money. To hell with all of them.

  18. Re:"attorneys and scientists" by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    I sometimes wonder how many of these ACs actually believe the nonsense they spout or whether they're some loser sitting at a desk in China or Russia being paid peanuts

    Don't worry, they can easily be both.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  19. Mesothelioma... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I whish that anyone who thinks asbestos is a matter of opinion or alternate-fact-bussines does not have to see a loved one go down with the type of cancer this stuff is known to cause...

  20. Re:EPA killed a very needed bypass road now there by sanosuke001 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe not destroying our environment is more important than your commute. If you don't like how long your drive is, move somewhere else.

    --
    -SaNo
  21. US of A sinking lower than 3rd world shitholes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quiz : What's the best way to be poisoned in the US of A ?
    Answer : Support Trump's E.P.A the Extra Poison Agency.
    EPA brought to you courtesy of the fucktards that voted for the orangutan.

  22. Re:The administration of regression by Mashiki · · Score: 1

    Hey let's bring back arsenic-treated lumber, trans fats and CFCs

    What do you mean "bring back" all of those things still exist, and are in use to this day, hell mills pump out CCA lumber but the metric fucking shit ton. Remember all those studies that said CCA was bad, it'd kill ya, cause all sorts of problems and there was a mad rush to restrict and ban it? Yeah, and guess what? Nothing, not a damn thing to show that it actually caused problems in wildlife or even humans. What was the solution when CCA was being restricted, well shit we'll just SOAK IT IN OIL(creosote) far worse for the environment, especially since it leeches as it's broken down. Should note that in north america rail road ties are still creosote soaked because it's cheaper then concrete and survives the environmental swings and abuse better then say concrete ties. At least ACQ, you've only got to worry about introducing copper into the environment. Of course, this can lead to copper poisoning in lakes as they discovered, and occasionally copper poisoning in humans if the water source people use to drink is already high in copper.

    Trans fats are still everywhere, and CFCs are used in nearly every industry in the world still. The difference is, there's regulations on how it can all be used. Hell asbestos is an amazing fire stop, highly non-conductive, and makes excellent insulation. The problem has to do with the fibers that come off of it when a wire is broken, pipes coated with it have it break off and so-on.

    Before someone goes hur-dur-dur, ur and ididot. Yeah, look. I was apprenticing when asbestos was still used in truck and automotive brakes. I spent the better part of 8 years breathing the dust from it, chances of me developing something from it? Low. More likely the shit in automotive fluids(brakes, transmission, oil, gasoline) will be what kills me, providing the general hereditary diseases or old age don't get me first. But even at that, I still believe that we should be researching ways to make asbestos safer and use it, rather then letting it sit in the ground doing nothing while we spend twice or four times the energy to make a synthetic that degrades three times as quickly.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  23. That's not enough, I demand more asbestos! by rsilvergun · · Score: 0

    More asbestos! More asbestos! More asbestos!

    Seriously, we literally elected Bart Simpson. What's wrong with my country?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:That's not enough, I demand more asbestos! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're what's wrong with all your sky-is-falling over the top neuroticism. I hope by the end of Trump's 2nd term, you are off the internet comfortably resting in an insane asylum (which Trump will bring back into existence with an executive order). Then, maybe the rest of us will get some peace and quiet.

  24. Re:The administration of regression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the US money is king, actually it is more than king, it is a religion. All other considerations are null and voided. This is the natural consequence of late stage capitalism. Enjoy living in a poisoned country with a destroyed environment.
    If you don't die from fires, tornadoes or flooding, poison sanctioned by the government will kill you.
    Make America Great Again hell yeah.

  25. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by danudwary · · Score: 1

    So, I assume there are strict regulations in place to enforce safe installation then, right?

  26. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK, so then there would have to be regulation on the proper use of installation, but no let's just blindly trust that ciompanies will do things in our best interest and not their bottom dollar.

  27. US already has a high tax on saving by raymorris · · Score: 1

    There are basically two things you can do with your money after you've bought groceries and paid the water and electric bills, the basic necessities. You can spend the rest, buying things like lattes and Air Jordans, or you can save / invest it. Spending means the money is basically gone, saving means you'll have it when you need it later. You won't be homeless when you get hurt, sick or old.

    Most saving is also investing - the money is used to build something, such as a semiconductor fab or a ship, which produces useful things. The saver gets back their money as chips are sold, plus more money. A LOT more, if they save for retirement while they are young. Having things like semiconductor fabs, next-gen battery research labs, etc is good for a country. A country with no investment is a tribal society living in tents.

    One very important example of the spend / invest decision is housing. I was renting an apartment, which meant I was spending over $1,000 / month, $12K per year was just going away from my bank account. Now I spend about the same amount to BUY a house, meaning I'll get most of the money back when I sell the house. Over time, I'll be $300,000 better off buying (investing in the house) than I would renting (spending).

    (Getting a house three times as expensive as you need can be a bad idea, whether renting or buying - still renting is generally worse.)

    Anyway saving and investing is really good, for the individual doing the investing and for the country. As Barak Obama said, "if you want people to do less of something, tax it". A high tax on investment tends to get people to invest less, which is bad for them and bad for the country. That's why most developed countries tax investment at a much lower rate than the US does. They WANT their people to save an invest, because it's good for them individually and good for the country overall.

    You may say "that's not fair that people who save up do better than people who spend all their money as soon as they get it!" Waa. Reality is, not every course of action gets the same results. Your choices matter. Doing smart things, like saving, gets better results. That's why those things are called "smart".

    1. Re:US already has a high tax on saving by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      All developed countries tax investment at about the same rate.

      Some just tax corporate earnings more and cap gains less, or vice versa.

      They have to, or they get no investments. High ROI lets them tax a little more.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  28. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 5, Interesting

    And yet the death rate by fire has steadily fallen since asbestos was banned in 1970.

  29. Re:The administration of regression by pastafazou · · Score: 1

    You didn't actually read the article, did you?

  30. The problem with Asbestos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with Asbestos isn't that some strains cause cancer (only a tiny percentage of all possible strains). The problem is that it's a total headache to deal with if you open up the walls in your house and discover some.

    First of all, how do you know it's Asbestos or stuff that looks like it?
    Second of all, how do you know which strain it is?

    You have to send a sample to a lab and wait a few weeks every time. Do you know what a nightmare this is when you are doing renovations?

    We would all be better off banning the use of this substance in construction. It's just not worth the headache.

  31. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yep. That's right, pardner. The government shouldn't stop god fearing corporations from using whatever the hell they want, however the hell they want to. Who care if they put asbestos into every God-damned thing. Slap a warning sticker on it and move on.

    It's not like every damned fool in the world would do something as stupid as, say, remove a floor that might have asbestos in it, or shingles, or ceiling tiles, or insulation.

    Hell, if you are too stupid to know that every thing in the world could potential kill you in the most painful, drawn-out way, then maybe you don't deserve to live.

    Also, fuck you. Both of my maternal grandparents died from Asbestosis. My grandfather dragged home asbestos fibers on his clothes from his work in a steel mill. Those two gentle people suffered for years and then died coughing blood.

    Maybe you should, too.

  32. LITERALLY MURDER THIS MAGARITY FAGGOT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone needs to tear this Magarity faggot's head clean off, dip it in "clean, wonderful asbestos" and shove it up HIS TREASONOUS FAGGOT ASS,

  33. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  34. FFS, what's next? by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    What's next? Bring back DDT? Deregulate formaldehyde? Radium jars? Start letting tobacco companies advertise that smoking is healthy?

  35. Re:The administration of regression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you mean "bring back" all of those things still exist, and are in use to this day,
    You're right about CCA. You're mostly wrong about CFCs which have largely been eliminated in most of the world, and are severely restricted. Trans fats were just banned by the FDA as a food additive, and largely have disappeared from food. So I'd rate the OPs statement "mostly accurate".

    . Remember all those studies that said CCA was bad, it'd kill ya, cause all sorts of problems and there was a mad rush to restrict and ban it? Yeah, and guess what? Nothing, not a damn thing to show that it actually caused problems in wildlife or even humans.

    Arsenic has been a known toxin for hundreds of years. The lumber doesn't appear to be a huge problem because mostly the arsenic gets attached to soil particles. it's more a problem if you burn the stuff.

    Yeah, look. I was apprenticing when asbestos was still used in truck and automotive brakes. I spent the better part of 8 years breathing the dust from it, chances of me developing something from it? Low.

    Not really the answer I'd want. Low? I'd want zero.

  36. Right Action, Wrong Justification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, Big Giant Orange Head wants to bring all those back again! MAGA, remember? It's strong doses of DDT, formaldehyde, radium and tobacco that MAG in the first place. Look, those things were around "when America was Great", so obviously they Made America Great. Get with it!

    However it's not because they are healthy, it's because they are cheaper. When you kill your population off with those substances, you don't have to worry about "healthcare", "insurance", "old folks homes", all that loser stuff. We want winners!

    So MAGA and bring on the toxins!!!

    1. Re:Right Action, Wrong Justification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please learn to enclose your sarcasm comments with the appropriate tags:

  37. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  38. Re: Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck me, you win

  39. What to ban next? by nsaspook · · Score: 1
    --
    In GOD we trust, all others we monitor.
  40. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    Each new one we create will be 3 times as complicated.

    It isn't the number of regulations but the complexity of existing ones.
    Starting a business if the local government came in and offered free guidance to businesses on what to do and not do. It would make things easier.
    You business deals with hazardous chemicals. There should be guidance telling how to properly dispose of them, so they can include it in their business plan.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  41. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by magarity · · Score: 2

    So, I assume there are strict regulations in place to enforce safe installation then, right?

    It's right there in the summary, never mind having to go to the article: " The proposed new rule would create a new process for regulating uses of asbestos"

  42. Hopelessly confused by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    Does anyone know what is actually going on here?

    From TFA I expected to see text replaced or removed but all it seems to do is add Asbestos and a specific list of uses to substance list of 40 CFR 721.

    Does the presence of this text somehow weaken existing new use restrictions of Asbestos? Or is it just that the text added while intentionally nerfed does not in any way reduce existing regulations/laws/whatever governing use of Asbestos?

    I'm so confused...

  43. Re:The administration of regression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not of regression (well, yes, that, too), but of Russia.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/russian-asbestos-trump_face

    On 25 June 2018, a Russian mining company named Uralasbest, which is one of the world’s largest producers of asbestos, posted a message of support for President Trump on their official Facebook and VK (a Russian version of Facebook) pages. The post included photographs of packed asbestos material adorned with the face of Trump and the text “Approved by Donald Trump, 45th President of the United States.”

    They aren't even trying to hide it anymore.

  44. Re: Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Die in a fire, troll.

  45. Re:"attorneys and scientists" by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

    Russia has some large (maybe the largest?) asbestos mines, so they can use the same trolls they use on political stuff.

  46. Hoggish Greedly!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's like we've elected a cartoon villain for president. Where's Captain Planet when you need them.

  47. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by k6mfw · · Score: 1

    You are right in the sense if we can get more people to die sooner, less burden on social security, traffic, etc. Problem is you will not like it if you or your loved ones were selected to die sooner than others.

    --
    mfwright@batnet.com
  48. Russian asbestos company puts Trump's face on[...] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is anyone surprised that a Russian asbestos company is putting Trump's face on their packaging? And is anyone surprised that the company is Russian?

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/russian-asbestos-trump_face/

  49. Re:EPA killed a very needed bypass road now there by orlanz · · Score: 2

    The sad part is that such people will move to mess up something pristine once they tarnished where they lived.

  50. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Sir+Holo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, who give a shit about things like peoples health or the environment we live in. Lets just do whatever the fuck we want!

    People's health? Asbestos is hands down the greatest fire retardant ever discovered; it's only cancer causing when breathed in shredded microfiber form. Banning it everywhere no matter what is wild overreaction. More asbestos installed safely would prevent fires and improve heath.

    Maybe. But it is the removal of the asbestos -- in a fire where particles form an aerosol -- or when the building is torn down -- that it gets into the air. I've been in plenty of buildings with asbestos. They were built long ago, and the stuff is fine while it remains undisturbed.

    US buildings are primarily 'throw-away', meaning that the building will probably come down within 50 years, creating an asbestos problem.

  51. Re:The administration of regression by hey! · · Score: 1

    There is a persistent error even experts make in nutrition: attributing the effects of a particular compound to a wider class of compounds to which it belongs for classification purposes. Not all saturated fats are bad, not all unsaturated fats are good. Trans fats (which by definition are unsaturated) are not all bad; the ones that are reasonably common in nature like CLA are good for you. It's when hydrogenation creates products with very high quantities of stuff like elaidic acid, which is rare in nature, that you have problems. Elaidic acid looks enough like the more common vaccenic acid that your body tries to process it, but with subtle differences in the long term.

    As for CFCs, global production is much, much lower than it was in 1987. The global goal is a complete eradication by 2030, and in general most of the world has been making steady progress in reduction, but evidence shows somebody in East Asia has been cheating since around 2012. Since it is unlikely to be Japan or Korea, I leave it up to you to figure out who has a large enough economy to hide the emission of 13,000 tons of bootleg CFCs annually. It's probably not Mongolia.

    Asbestosis usually requires heavy and regular exposure. However it's not the absestos directly that causes problems, but the long-term effects of chronic low-level inflammation. It takes twenty to fifty years for symptoms to manifest. If I'd had moderate occupational exposure I wouldn't freak out, but I'd take extra good care of my lungs to keep that inflammation down. That means not smoking, getting your flu shots, an anti-inflammatory diet and living somewhere with low air pollution -- all things that are good for you anyway.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  52. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hate-filled A/Cs are really bringing down this site.

    I absolutely, positively, 100% agree. But...

    Is your dad proud of your dialog or do you not know who he is?

    In this case I don't think the GP was out of line. Well, maybe at the very end with the "you deserve to die coughing blood" part. There's never any cause for that in a civilized discussion.

  53. Re: EPA killed a very needed bypass road now there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, they are doing it to my country now.

  54. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My grandfather dragged home asbestos fibers on his clothes from his work in a steel mill.

    These Trumplodytes would have it so that he would be charged with theft for bringing those fibers home and fired so they could get him off of their health insurance.

  55. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's only cancer causing when breathed in shredded microfiber form.

    Then why did people at every step of the supply chain, from miners to end-users, suffer from exposure to it?

  56. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    go fuck yourself you piece of shit putin cock sucking faggot

  57. Re: Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look on the bright side. The asbestos is instant death to all Trump Supporters because they will buy this dangerous evil cancerous substance. Liberals are too smart to touch this stuff. Also our lungs are so advanced that we are less susceptable to mesothelioma. There might be a few liberal deaths, but many more Republicans will die. I mean how can we establish our people loving liberal utopia that values human life unless we kill all the evil old white republicans.

  58. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    "Greatest" =! "only".

    He's right btw. Asbestos is an excellent fire retardant to use in insulation layers. We have nothing even close to it. Nowadays we use various mineral wools and fibreglass instead. Those are much worse in terms of their ability to retard fire.

    Problem is, it costs a lot to actually dismantle structures with asbestos, because of cancer risks from breathing in the microfibre form. And if something does go seriously wrong, such as for example building collapse, there's no way to contain the asbestos dust from spreading. Now if there's strict regulation, there are places where asbestos may be used safely. Military applications where maximum ability to retard fire is critical come to mind.

    But for general use, it's unlikely that asbestos will ever become usable in Western world again. This move for example, suggests that new regulations must be put in place for using it instead of blanket ban. Such regulations would likely place strict limits, enabling usage in some areas where fire retarding ability is critical at a great cost, and nowhere else.

  59. MAGA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trump will have children's toys made from asbestos in no time.

  60. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

    Water works pretty well. As in sprinkler systems.

  61. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately the asbestos used in insulation was also the most friable form and dangerous to health that we used. I live in an asbestos house. But I wouldn't be caught... errr. alive near an asbestos fire blanket, or a place with asbestos insulation.

  62. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    If you think you can just shove water into the isolation layer and that will prevent fires, you're beyond stupid.

  63. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Correct. But nowadays, asbestos when used in building insulation is typically used in self-contained panels (as far as I have seen). These would be safe until you break them apart, and breaking apart a self contained panel would require quite severe efforts.

    Also, I'm fairly certain that you would in fact be caught alive near asbestos fire blanket in a raging fire. See, dying of fire is a very painful way to go, and at that point you will choose "possible, potential lung damage that may materialise in many tens of years" over "immediate and excruciatingly painful death". The issue isn't that this is a dichotomy however, because it isn't. And while I would consider an asbestos fire blanket to be a good thing if it's properly sealed when not in use, it's not like I wouldn't prefer something that would be significantly more expensive that would be almost as good of a job and that wouldn't be a hazard to long term health to my lungs.

    Notably, I put my money where my mouth is on this one. I paid for a decent fire blanket for my home. Of course, I also don't smoke, and generally avoid smoker-filled areas, because I like to have my lungs working long term in general.

    Asbestos insulation, depends on how it's done. Properly contained panels are safe. You should probably be more worried about radon in the air if you live at ground level, and street dust and smog if you live in a big city. Those will give you much worse lung problems than properly contained asbestos insulation ever will.

    But if it's one of those older constructions which are nowadays torn down specifically because you have asbestos fibres flaking off, we're in total agreement. Luckily it's exceedingly unlikely that many (and in most places in Western world, any) such buildings are still standing. Most of the current asbestos problems are about condemned buildings being torn down safely, not about safety of people living in intact ones.

  64. Re:The administration of regression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't believe you understand the casual factors for Asbestos and Cancer. 1 fiber of Asbestos in your lungs will eventually cause cancer. you will probably just die of something else first. It is a very small sharp item that can cut the DNA in the cells. eventually it will cut something important. enough fibers and the odds of it happening become sooner rather than later.

  65. Re:"attorneys and scientists" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MAGA!

  66. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Also, I'm fairly certain that you would in fact be caught alive near asbestos fire blanket in a raging fire.

    Nope, because they are banned and the alternatives are equally as effective. ;-)

    But yes we are generally in agreement in contained panels. I think the hysteria has exposed more people to asbestos than would otherwise have been exposed. I decided last time I inspected my roof (corrugated asbestos) to get it re-sealed. My local school on the other hand closed a building off for a month and had a borderline hazmat bubble built around it (think of the children) because the perfectly fine condition panels was made of asbestos. Just coat the thing in paint if you're worried, but in generally don't be. That stuff lasts a really long time.

  67. Re:The administration of regression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It doesn't "cut the DNA in cells" - it interferes with chromosome segregation during cell division, leading to chromosome abnormalities in the divided cells.

    And no, asbestos is worse than "something that will kill you after you're dead". It's not just an initiator of cancer, but also a promoter. If you have asbestos in your lungs and smoke, it will also significantly raise the cancer risk from smoking, more so than either risk taken on their own, for example.

  68. Re:The administration of regression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    America is a nation whose national religion is the worship of the demon Mammon. You can see this from their fake priests "send money now!" to their warped morality (dollars is the only value that exists in their world)

  69. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    They're only banned in small amount of Western countries. Worldwide, overwhelming majority of countries does not ban them.

    Reminder: do not project Western values upon the world. We're a tiny minority.

  70. Re:The administration of regression by hey! · · Score: 1

    An asbestos fiber is gigantic in relation to a DNA molecule. It's the inflammation, not mechanical damage.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  71. Re:The administration of regression by Mashiki · · Score: 1

    Yeah, so you've got two workers who were exposed to LIQUID CCA. Seriously, I worked at a mill that made pressure treated lumber with CCA, you suited up when handling it. Your entire study has to do with direct exposure to CCA, not surface contact. You get more arsenic from eating hot dogs.

    Not nearly as prevalent as they once were, although this was primarily market-driven.

    True and give it another 10 years and they'll discover that maybe they weren't really as bad as they thought, just like butter, milk, eggs, bacon, and various other fats.

    Correct. But remind me why R12 and R22 are being phased out? The Trump EPA could just as well allow the mass-manufacture of this stuff again because, you know, the destruction of the ozone layer is fake like global warming.

    Well that's easy, because they were more damaging to the environment. Problem though, because the "replacement coolants" are smaller in size then R12 and R22 the devices they're used in(fridges, AC and so on), tend to have more leaks. Half a dozen of one, half a dozen of the other right? Don't forget that various cutting fluids also count as CFC and they're still in use in everything from milling to machining.

    I'm not going to take a chance on something so easily avoidable. Wouldn't you?

    It's not easily avoidable though, the stuff is everywhere. If you live within 70-200 miles of any type of open-pit mining you've probably been breathing in trace amounts all your life. There are ways to make it safer though.

    Agreed. But until then keep that crap away from me. It's a known carcinogen when inhaled and I'm not going to sign up to take such a silly risk.

    Then don't breath broken fibers, simple enough right? That's the thing, it has amazing, absolutely amazing industrial properties far beyond anything that we make right now. It's the decades of improper handling followed up by massive lawsuits that have caused issues. There's a very good reason it was used as a fire-stop between connected buildings, for example. Even the manufactured board that we use now that's absolutely permeated with an assload of toxic chemicals is shit compared to it. Oh and the chemical residue from it burning? More toxic and has more immediate health issues then asbestos, by more toxic I mean will cause immediate and permanent scaring of lungs, and can kill an unprotected person in 20 minutes. That's what we replaced asbestos with, which is perfectly fine unless you start hammering away at it.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  72. Re:The administration of regression by Mashiki · · Score: 1

    Not really the answer I'd want. Low? I'd want zero.

    Then don't go outside. You're more likely to die from melanoma(skin cancer) then I'd die from mesothelioma(asbestos cancer).

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  73. By Neruos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Asbestos is only not-important to those who didn't have to live with a close family member dying from it.

    carcinogens are bad, and we as humans should work very hard to avoid using them, because it's the right thing to do, not because it's easy or hard or cheap. Its Right.

  74. Re:EPA killed a very needed bypass road now there by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    He's not trying to destroy his environment, he's trying to destroy your environment.

    Verily, he is a son of Trump. Ready to be thrown under the bus when needed. Because buses are so un-American.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  75. Re: Too many regulations hurt job creators by Xman73x · · Score: 0

    Thatâ(TM)s really stupid if our government is now telling Americans that itâ(TM)s safe to use dangerous materials such as Asbestos along with artificial colors and flavors including high fructose corn syrup when itâ(TM)s at not! You see these ingredients and materials to build houses are banned in most parts of the world! But there jumping to conclusions with it would hurt jobs and the creators of the jump market ðYðYââ(TM)ïðY¦ðYââ(TM)ï

  76. Re: Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's banned in the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Japan, Korea, Australia, New Zealand and quite a few other countries. Some of the countries that still allow its use are Western: tge USA and Canada, for example.

  77. Re: Too many regulations hurt job creators by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Did you notice that every country you listed falls within "Western" umbrella, and their totality is indeed a small fraction of the world?

  78. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because new always equals safer, especially where the Trump administration is concerned.

    Goit.

  79. Re: Too many regulations hurt job creators by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    South Korea and Japan - and their values in particular - are not Western. Industrialized, sure. Modern, you betcha. But Western? Nope.

  80. Re: Too many regulations hurt job creators by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Actually both are considered "hybrid Western".

  81. Re:The administration of regression by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    That's as embarrassing as a Birther seeing a picture of Obama eating humus and using it as proof that the man is a Muslim who was born in Kenya.

  82. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    They're only banned in small amount of Western countries.

    Because asbestos (and DDT, and leaded gasoline, etc) are only health problems in western countries. Insert eyeroll emoji here.

    Reminder: do not inflict Western capitalist exploitation upon the world. We're a tiny minority.

    FTFY

  83. Re:Too many regulations hurt job creators by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Because the incredibly unproductive risk aversion of Western countries doesn't really exist outside them. Case for DDT vs malaria for example is clear. Take DDT if you're sane. Same for leaded gasoline vs billions of people not being able to afford fuel.

    As for your last statement, there's an old quote: "If you're not communist when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not capitalist when you're old, you have no brain".

    Hopefully you're still young. No one likes edgy and ignorant adults.