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Nintendo's Promised Cloud Saves On Switch Won't Work For Every Game (arstechnica.com)
An anonymous reader writes: The first paid online service for Nintendo Switch, simply named Nintendo Switch Online, is set to arrive at some point later this month, and we're still waiting on a few key details. One detail about the service emerged on Friday via Nintendo's official site, and it's not a great one: there will be specific limits to the service's promised cloud-save support. Nintendo Switch Online's $20/year cost includes a promise to "save your data online for easy access" -- which, for the uninitiated, will be the only way to back up your Switch games' save data when it launches. Currently, should your Nintendo Switch be lost, stolen, or damaged, your progress in games like Zelda: Breath of the Wild and Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is toast, as you can neither move save data from one console to another nor personally back it up to a hard drive. The following current and upcoming Switch games do not support Save Data Cloud backups: Splatoon 2, Pokemon Let's Go Pikachu, Pokemon Let's Go Eevee, Dark Souls Remastered, Dead Cells, FIFA 19, NBA 2K19, and NBA Playgrounds.
I don't think I've ever seen a company lock down saves this much. It used to be save games were completely open; you could trade them with friends, experiment and so on. Nintendo seems to want to stop that for some reason. Why?
Honestly. Nintendo have a lot of restrictions and such. Always have. And it won't be for a while until people recognise it
They're good only if you like playing remakes of the same games over and over again.
Considering the number of times that hacked save games have been used to exploit consoles (even on Nintendo's own systems) it makes sense to lock it all down.
Dear Nintendo Management: A fantastic feature would be if Nintendo Online encrypted all game saves with military grade encryption that cannot be cracked. This way if some villainous "deviant" were to figure out "an illegal way to move save files", that horrible, horrible person would be unable to do anything productive with those save files. Please let me know if you like my suggestion. P.S. My CV is attached to this email. If you have an open position in the "customer shafting department", I would love to come in for an interview! Best Regards, Ivan The Bastard.
Back in the Amiga days, cracked games sometimes came with viruses, and instead of being able to play the games, we died. If only Nintendo had bought Commodore at the time and "locked everything down", there would not have been such exploits, and we wouldn't have died. And if we hadn't all died, and had in fact been able to buy further Commodore products, Commodore would not have died either. Nintendo are wonderful people. XOXO
Each of these games have mechanics in them that would be broken/exploited by having the ability to restore a save file to a previous version.
In Splatoon 2, you could restore a lost ranking, in Pokemon you could trade away all your pokemon then restore your save to get them back, in Dark Souls (which features perma-death as an option) you could die then restore your save to act as if nothing ever happened, etc. The sports games for whatever reason, have multi-gigabyte save files which are impractical to sync with a server.
While this may be Nintendo's decision, it isn't as silly or restrictive as some people are making it out to be.
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They haven't indicated why that is. Part of me just feels they're shafting folks. Some of me wants to believe that they just didn't write any of the code to do cloud saves into these games. However, that last part gets me thinking, "well shit, that means they've tossed their API together at the last minute, that's not good.". Either way, par for the course for Nintendo.
This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read, or at least the most ignorant. Nintendo is far and beyond one of the most innovative within its own franchises especially compared to any other company. They'll typically release one game from each franchise per generation, and that game will exhibit a completely new game mechanic making it quite unique. Other companies will typically tag a new IP on top of that to excite people, where Nintendo uses its older IP's - also to excite people. Those who think they know what they're talking about often make dumb af statements like you just made, it's a sign of someone talking out of their ass.
They haven't even ANNOUNCED that any of this is the case let alone why it is. This story and all of the ones like it are assumptions based on a tagline with no idea how or why things are different for these games.
Likely, it has nothing to do with the API, they've made it as simple as checking a box. These particular games probably have restrictions to their game saves or are too large for syncing.
Pokemon. Got to catch them all yourself. Can't just get someone to hack and trade you them all. That's not addictive. That doesn't draw in the fans when they know everyone can just cheat their way into maxed out whatevers to their hearts content.
Perhaps if Nintendo was at all competent with hashing, online verification, and possibly blockchain, we'd see them maybe being open to things. But, why do any of that when you can charge people $20/year for the privilege of backing up some of their precious saves? Of course another person mentioned about exploits on systems, but they really press hard on the "must be on current version" for anything online (and constantly "more system stability") and maybe eventually they'll be smart enough to use a challenge chip for each console so faking the version isn't doable.
I think in their minds, though, the real problem is Pokemon.
We've known since the program was first mentioned that Cloud Saves wouldnt work for all games.
Give a man a Fred Fish disk, and he has a Fred Fish disk. Teach him how to download Fred Fish disk LHA files from Aminet, and he has all of the Fred Fish disks he pleases.
Just because you don't like that you can't copy savegames, doesn't mean you need to turn into a reeee-ing idiot and for no reason start shitting on what's widely considered to be one of the best game developers.
My friend, I think you are confused. Explaining a thing is not the same as endorsing a thing.
In Splatoon 2, you could restore a lost ranking,
Could you? Isn't this information already stored on Splatoon's servers?
in Pokemon you could trade away all your pokemon then restore your save to get them back,
So what?
in Dark Souls (which features perma-death as an option) you could die then restore your save to act as if nothing ever happened,
So what?
The sports games for whatever reason, have multi-gigabyte save files which are impractical to sync with a server.
Finally, a reasonable reason. Though I wonder if Valve/Microsoft/Sony also have such restrictions.
Games are supposed to be fun. Worrying about losing all of ones progress should be a thing of the past. Companies shouldn't be going out of their way to ensure it's continued existence no matter how many people might game the system to avoid consequences.
This isn't about their games, this is about their system and services. They're widely considered to be about 20 years behind the rest of the world regarding anything that involves the internet.
For example, on the Switch you get a popup notification when friends come online. You can also look at their name and icon and see what they have played recently.
That is the extent of the Switch's friend list capabilities. There is no voice chat on the system. There is no text chat. There is no way to invite a friend to play a game with you.
You have to call/text/whatever your friend outside the system and ask if they want to play a game. If you want to voice chat in Nintendo's game you need to download an app on your phone to do so. If you want game audio and chat audio, you need a headset, a mixer, a voice chat app (official or otherwise), and wires / dongles out the ass.
THIS MONSTROSITY IS THE OFFICIAL VOICE CHAT SOLUTION FOR THE NINTENDO SWITCH
https://www.vooks.net/img/2017...
Because malformed saves have been used time and time again to exploit shitty save parsers in games, and run unsigned code. It's been a thing since long before the Switch. Remember rooting the original Xbox using a USB stick? But if you're worried about Switch savegame lockdown, worry not. You can short a few pins together and boot an unsigned OS, thanks to a buffer overflow in their secure boot implementation. Then use JKSV to copy your saves to your card and edit them.
Splatoon 2's data, and any competitive multiplayer game's data, should be stored SERVER SIDE.
Pokemon? They literally sell a separate service called Pokemon Bank for this shit.
Dark Souls has a minimal online component, and anything related to it can be stored online on the same servers than handle invading / assisting.
If someone restores their save file from the cloud and their account online has a later timestamp than the current save file, flag the account and trigger a local file save to update its timestamp. If someone's account is flagged, show a warning when they connect to assist / invade. Show the warning only once. Clear the flag in 30 days.
If someone's console dies / is stolen, they can restore on a new console and be fine. They'll see a warning once and that's it.
If someone's local save timestamp is earlier than the server's timestamp (for invading / assisting) and they've already been flagged? Deny them access.
This works for any online game. You just need access to the local save's timestamp and the last time the user did anything on your server.
Shitty sports games? I don't give a shit, but people should be able to sync it anyway. Make EA pay for the storage.
Anything else, including iron man modes, doesn't matter. If people want to cheat that way in single player games, let them.
It is STILL fucking retarded that you can't backup your save game. Who owns the data??? You or Nintendo??? According to Nintendo's fucked up logic, they do which is bullshit.
Consoles eventually break down, get stolen, etc. Why should *I* be penalized for Nintendo having their their head up their ass ???
What year is this again? 1984 copy protection all over again???
> best game developers
It seems like one obvious reason is that a lot of Fremium games contain paid in-game resources and their whole business model would be ruined by save game editing.
After many years of ignoring nintendo (Since I had owned an nes/snes/n64/wii) because of the massive shortcomings of the wiiu I was tempted to get a switch of late. Boy am I glad I held off. I mean, gunning down your own fan base is just a level of bullshit that leads me to thumb my nose at. Just like sony for their fu efforts, I have squarely place nintendo deep into my far queue round filing cabinet.
You are penalized because it was you who made the choice to (beg your parents to) buy their crap (and at that time firmly stuck your head in the sand, ignoring the less positive aspects of the device).
All I hear is an entitled brat speaking ...
There is no voice chat on the system.
Given what voice chat is like on the Xbox this is a feature!
Plus it also creates for some very funny moments when playing overcooked with someone who has no idea what you're doing. It's quite funny shouting at the TV for actions that could very easily be blamed on very poor coding of NPCs :-)
Several reasons.
1.Hacking - Nintendo isn't really good at securing their HW and SW so they restrict the attack surface.
2.Cheating - save editing can't happen if you can't get your hands on your saves.
3.Save scumming - with this level of control they can prevent people from doing that - see gatcha system for rolling Blades in Xenoblade chronicles 2
This list is subject to change
That is the extent of the Switch's friend list capabilities. There is no voice chat on the system. There is no text chat. There is no way to invite a friend to play a game with you.
I have a kid. This is exactly why he plays the Switch instead of computer games/xbox/ps4. He's a bit too young to handle Barrens chat. So much Splatoon. Couldn't be happier with that game.
I remember a single case. Sega's Phantasy Star Online on Dreamcast encrypted save files with salt made from the serial numbers of both the console and the game GD. Changing either one, such as trying to access the save on a different console or changing the disc, made the save data appear as corrupted. This was supposedly a cheat prevention measure.
Later on Sega stopped being stupid and the later versions of the game did not have this issue. None of their other games that I'm aware of tried pulling this, either.
Son, I haven't lived with my parents for 20+ years.
But keep trying to apply a red herring fallacy.
In other words you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
some of their own games are listed? i really hope they will update those so that 'cloud' saves will work.
i can understand some 3rd party games won't be supported.
can't figure out this company, making games that are loved by millions of people, but they get about everything else wrong.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
And thats exacly why I put that part between brackets. I could not be sure about your age.
Guess again.
Its not your age that I'm putting at question here (which is just your attempt at throwing a red herring), its your "Whaaa! Things do not work as I want/expect/demand them to go" attitude that I'm pointing out to you.
Just keep repeating that to yourself. :-)
But ain't it grand ? You know absolutily zero about me, but you already know for sure that I have absolutily no idea.
How's that saying going again ? "The pot claims the kettle being black ?" Yeah, rather applicable, wouldn't you say ? :-D
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Kiddo, You've made a choice, and if you want to complain about that choice to someone than you only have to take a look in a mirror. Nobody forced you to buy it (nonwithstanding all the info you had - or could have had - about it), yet you did. Now you have to live with that choice.
tl;dr: Nonwithstanding your age, grow up for heavens sake!
Because hackers have abused save games multiple times in the past to get code execution on Nintendo's hardware. Nintendo, being the conservative company they are, decided to ban save game exports (3DS) and then exports period (Wii U) in a desperate attempt to prevent that. Of course they could get off of the trusted client security model and move into the 21st century by just serializing the save game parser as part of the firmware and mandating it's use by developers. That would make 3rdparty buggy save parsers a non-issue, and if a bug was found easily fixed for every game at once. But of course Nintendo still can't figure out how to make a decent anticheat so I doubt their development team has ever thought about that.
As far as marketing for the cloud saves "feature" goes this gives them a potential new revenue stream by renting back to you the functionality they took away. While simultaneously making it easy to ban hammer anyone who might try to abuse it. That's why some games, like the upcoming Pokemon game, are banned from the service. Some people are actually cheering that because it means others will not be able to clone a pokemon by restoring an old save file. Despite an RPG that you dump a lot of time into is one of the biggest reasons for having a save backup feature in the first place. That idiocy and mad hatred of "cheating" makes Nintendo look good. So Nintendo will flaunt it. Despite the fact the cloud backup feature was* one of the few selling points for their new online multiplayer subscription service.
Note: I say "was", because although I never had any interest in subscribing, I did see it as at least some attempt at justifying their locking of their matchmaking server behind a paywall beyond the NES game bundle they want to push as the other justification. Now I don't see any justification, as we all know they have no desire to actually fix their trusted client problem which is the root cause of their multiplayer woes.
They're widely considered to be about 20 years behind the rest of the world regarding anything that involves the internet.
Yep. 100%. And if you'd just made that comment and left it at that instead of coming off as a shitposting hater nobody would have questioned it.
How is somebody modifying a save file something that needs to be protected against? Oh, that's right. Competitive multiplayer. Nobody buys a Nintendo console for competitive multiplayer. Not even Smash players. They shouldn't ruin their products for a potential market.
No it don't. That's a blame-customers-for-product-deficiency kind of solution.