EU Drops Court Case After Apple Repays More Than $16 Billion In Taxes and Interest To Ireland (theguardian.com)

"Ireland's government has fully recovered more than [$16 billion] in disputed taxes and interest from Apple, which it will hold in an escrow fund pending its appeal against a European Union tax ruling," reports The Guardian. From the report: The European commission ruled in August 2016 that Apple had received unfair tax incentives from the Irish government. Both Apple and Dublin are appealing against the original ruling, saying the iPhone maker's tax treatment was in line with Irish and EU law. Ireland's finance ministry, which began collecting the back taxes in a series of payments in May, estimated last year the total amount could have reached -- [$17.5 billion] including EU interest. In the end the amount was [$15.2 billion] in back taxes plus [$1.4 billion] interest.

For its part, the commission said it would scrap its lawsuit against Ireland, which it initiated last year because of delays in recovering the money. "In light of the full payment by Apple of the illegal state aid it had received from Ireland, commissioner (Margrethe) Vestager will be proposing to the college of commissioners the withdrawal of this court action," the commission spokesman Ricardo Cardoso said. Ireland's finance ministry said its appeal had been granted priority status and is progressing through the various stages of private written proceedings before the general court of the European Union (GCEU), Europe's second highest court. The matter will likely take several years to be settled by the European courts, it added.

Comments

Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has not repaid anything. What they have done is use the tons of money they have doing nothing in Ireland, and put it in a escrow account.

Now that money is sort of working for Apple. The EU wants a big chunk, and Apple will go to court to prevent that. Meanwhile, Ireland will be beholding
to Apple for preventing the EU suing Ireland. The EU knew it could not win against Apple, so they went after Ireland. Now we have a proxy court battle.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Tough Love]

Ireland collects disputed Apple taxes in full ahead of appeal

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

"which it will hold in an escrow fund pending its appeal against an EU tax ruling" Read it. If it's in escrow you can't really say they've collected it. It's in escrow, pending appeal which is going to take a while.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Tough Love]

Ireland's escrow account, not Apple's. I hope you understand the difference.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

It makes no difference until the appeal is exhausted, I hope you get that. They can't collect or use that money until they actually win the decision in court, so to say it's really collected is a misnomer. It's in escrow, pending appeal. I don't see why this is hard for you or why you'd need to push back like it were subject to opine.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Tough Love]

Possession is nine-tenths of the law.

Is it really necessary for you Apple astroturfers to try to spin every little thing, no matter the facts? What do you think this behavior does to Apple's rep?

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ireland couldn't put it in escrow until they had collected it. So although Ireland cannot use it, Apple most certainly does not have it any more. This isn't hard to understand.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

How am I "with Apple" or "astroturfing" to correct you on the difference? The ESCROW company is in possession, under the law, until the appeal is exhausted.

Keep ramming your head against the wall and assuming I'm Tim Cook if you need to, but the facts are the facts here whether you can deal with them or need to lash out in ad hominem instead.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Tough Love]

So you admit that Apple no longer has that $16 billion.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of spin?

If anyone is spinning this, is The Guardian (mind you that outlet is a STRONG, very STRONG supporter of the EU in the United Kingdom) and the iHater group.

No, Apple hasn't paid anything.

No, Apple isn't accused of anything (that's why this is between the EU and Ireland, but they throw "Apple" to the mix, because that helps sell newspapers and helps create an image of "The EU attacking rich Apple", and not "The EU attacking Ireland".

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Tough Love]

Apple is a tax evader and got caught. Not like we haven't known this for many years. Apple is far from the only perp, just the worst one.

Re: Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

It makes a fuck load of difference. One is under Apple's control one is not. It also is not the EU after money, EU just wants to ensure they are not getting illegal tax thus ciphoning taxes away from other countries.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Escrow means escrow. Apple had to put it there to satisfy their legal obligations to the court. That doesn't mean it's Ireland's money, it means if they lose the appeal it's Ireland's money. If they win, they get it back. Simple.

"Tough luck" doesn't want to understand why they don't mean the same thing either, I guess he was personally affected by Apple not paying Ireland that tax money or something? Weird. Get well soon.

Re: Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, such innocence.
You see the escrow will be held by one of the Rothschilds banks, they will happily make a tidy penny on it until the court case plays out. Several individuals in that family will in turn invest their portion of the profits... in Apple.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

I seriously wonder if you're illiterate or don't know what escrow means now. If Apple wins, they get the money. Escrow is a holding company. I said it was in escrow right off the bat. Learn to read?

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Ireland tweets:

"Funding secured! We're buying Tesla and taking it private!"

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

>If Apple wins, they get the money back
This sentence is only possible after a certain event.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't know what you're talking about if you think they alone are the worst evaders. https://corporateeurope.org/pressreleases/2018/07/big-four-big-influence-architects-corporate-tax-avoidance-embedded-eu-policy

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll repeat what I said: It makes no difference until the appeal is exhausted. They can't collect or use that money until they actually win the decision in court, so to say it's really collected is a misnomer.

It's in escrow, pending appeal. No 9/10ths of law bullshit, no theory required. Escrow is holding it, pending appeal. Basic, factual statement.

I STILL don't see why this is hard for you or why you'd need to push back like it were subject to opine!

Re: Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither is under Apple's control. Both are under the control of the EU justice system. If Apple didn't submit it to escrow they'd just seize assets instead. It's in escrow, pending appeal, which is a better deal for everyone.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[cavreader]

This is just a common EU shakedown operation used to collect money from any company with deep pockets. And Ireland is appealing the decision rendered by the EU. What's interesting is when Ireland offered Apple various incentives to enlarge it's footprint in the country they were not violating any existing EU rules and regulations at the time.The EU changed the applicable rules and regulations AFTER the Ireland-Apple agreements were formalized. And in this particular case the EU are trying to apply their updated rules and regulations retroactively. Think about the consequences of a governing body being able to create and update laws and regulations and then applying them retroactively.

Re: Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, such specific ignorance.

Does Rothschild own all Central Banks?
by Anthony Migchels on July 15, 2013
Central Banks Rothschild
Controversy continues to rage about Central Bank ownership. Most major Central Banks, except for the FED, are publicly owned. However: this is not really important. Control is what matters and Central Banks are the Money Power’s centralized controllers, private or publicly owned.

By Anthony Migchels, for Henry Makow and Real Currencies

The shocking realization that the Federal Reserve Bank is privately owned by its member banks is one of the defining moments in any Truthseeker’s path. Eustace Mullins, coached by the indefatigable Ezra Pound, wrote ‘the Secrets of the Federal Reserve’, listing the banks owning the system. Ed Griffin then infamously plagiarized this book with his ‘the Creature of Jekyll Island’, to push the John Birch/Libertarian poison of the Gold Standard as a solution. We’re still dealing with this today, as seen in the ‘End the Fed’ movement.

The FED itself is now starting to move against its critics, claiming they ARE a Government institution, although partly independent. As Central Banks should be, which is today’s conventional wisdom in the Mainstream.

Here’s some text from the link, from the FED itself:
“The 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by the Congress as the operating arms of the nation’s central banking system, are organized similarly to private corporations–possibly leading to some confusion about “ownership.” For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.”

So while the FED tries to downplay private ownership, it does not deny it. Its stock cannot be traded, but this is not a limitation, it’s a sure way of keeping outsiders out. After all, it’s a club, and we’re not in it.
Furthermore, a dividend of 6% per year is not bad. It depends on the value of the stock, of course.

On the other hand, after paying its shareholders, the Federal Reserve returns what remains to the US Government, so it’s not entirely fair to say that the FED is printing money and then has the State pay interest on it. It paid the State 89 billion over 2012.

Nowadays the situation is even further confused by the fact that people like Tom Woods from the Hate the State crowd openly call Central Banks ‘statist’ operations, messing up the ever so fair ‘free market’ operations of the banks. They will say funny stuff, for instance claiming or implying that Central Banks are responsible for ‘money printing’, their dreaded enemy of ‘inflation’. However, it is the private banks that do by far the most of the money creation. They are the ones lending, after all, and they lend freshly created ‘credit’.

Europe
It becomes even more complicated when we realize that all European Central Banks are completely publicly owned. They are corporations with 100% Government ownership. They do operate as ‘independent’ entities, though. Before the ECB they set interest rates and managed the volume without Government interference. Nowadays this is done by the ECB, which in turn is owned outright by the national Central Banks.

Before the second World War, all European Central Banks were owned privately. But the massive upheaval caused by the Great Depression and the powerful monetary reform movements that shook the Money Power had raised awareness about private ownership of the financial systems of the West and nationalizing the Central Banks was a handy way of diverting this attention. After the war all major European Central Banks became publicly owned.

It is therefore simply wrong to state that Rothschild owns all Central Banks!

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Tough Love]

They can't collect or use that money until they actually win the decision in court

EU will collect interest on it during the appeal period. The joint appeal by Apple and Ireland (putting its own interests above the rest of the EU) is unlikely to go in Apple's favor. You can always hope, but Apple can basically kiss that money goodbye. From here on out Apple better stop cheating on tax or things will get much worse. As far as I know there were no penalties this time. That could well change if Apple continues to act badly.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ireland's escrow account, not Apple's. I hope you understand the difference.

Escrow means that the account is controlled by neither of them.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's "beholden", not "beholding".

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

From here on out Apple better stop cheating on tax or things will get much worse.

Do I think Apple should pay more in taxes? Yes. But the governments over there had been accepting Apple as paying it's taxes for over a decade, and personally I think coming back over a decade later and going "yeah.. you know all those years we said you were paying enough in taxes? We've decided that you weren't and must now pay more, plus interest" is a very very bad thing. Ex Post Facto bad. What is to stop the government from doing the same to you or I? Now that we have precedent, nothing.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

So you admit that Apple no longer has that $16 billion.

I never said they did. I simply said that it is incorrect to say that Ireland has it. You were so fixated on the idea that the money must exist either in Apple's hands or Ireland's hands, that you never considered that me saying Ireland doesn't have it is not the same as saying Apple has it.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Tough Love]

the governments over there had been accepting Apple as paying it's taxes for over a decade

Not so, this is about back taxes.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[rtb61]

Not so, this is about organised and extremely corrupt tax fraud with corporations corrupting governments to cheat on taxes. It is all about income shifting, and cunt countries like Ireland enabling it.

The Irish government being a raging pack of cunts and scheming with corporations with the idea "Hey lets be a jack pack of greedy fuck head cunts. We provide hugely reduced taxes for licences fees, corporations will shift to Ireland and we will steal other countries social services. Whilst we get great big huge deposit in our tax haven banks accounts for first class luxury holidays for the rest of our lives. Fuck those idiots in the countries we are cheating of taxes upon the revenue generated there, fuck them to death, suckers, morons, let the infrastructure die, let them die for want of health services, we are Irish Cunts and we come first".

Those countries who the Irish government in a total cunt act, cheated, so sue the fuck out of the Irish government and drive them to bankruptcy, let the fuckers economy burn in poverty. All taxes should be paid at the point of revenue, all profits, every single last fucking cent, should be declared at the point of revenue and all taxes paid there. Cunt countries like Ireland should be driven into poverty and pay with decades of suffering for the suffering they willingly inflicted upon others, in a wanton act of economic piracy and the resulting suffering and death it did cause.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[JaredOfEuropa]

This is a case about illegal state aid, and was always against Ireland first, ordering them to collected taxes they should have collected in the first place. Apple has very little to do with this as far as the Commission is concerned. And had Apple decided not to pay, Europe would still have had no business suing Apple, they would - again - have to lean on Ireland instead to prosecute Apple for not paying. That is how all these cases work.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Apple negotiated with the Irish government and came to a mutual agreement to locate in Cork in exchange for tax breaks and other considerations. Some 4th Reich bureaucrat got her panties in a bunch over Ireland winning Apple's business, and decided to abuse the courts to sabotage the deal.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has not repaid anything. What they have done is use the tons of money they have doing nothing in Ireland, and put it in a escrow account.

Now that money is sort of working for Apple. The EU wants a big chunk, and Apple will go to court to prevent that. Meanwhile, Ireland will be beholding
to Apple for preventing the EU suing Ireland. The EU knew it could not win against Apple, so they went after Ireland. Now we have a proxy court battle.

The EU does not want the money nor will they get it.* The EU is monitoring fair competition between EU Member States. Fair competition also means that EU Member States cannot pay subsidies without EU approval - local subsidies are easily used as discrimination against businesses in other EU Member States.

The EU is classifying the tax discounts as an illegal subsidy as it had not been approved by the EU. Of course, it is going against Ireland, who has illegally granted the subsidy, not Apple as the recipient. The fact that Apple has to pay the money back is simply because allowing recipients to keep illegal subsidies would entice EU Member States to simply grant them, knowing that the recipient will be able to keep the money and that the subsidy will still have the intended effect.

*Ireland's contribution to the EU budget is calcluated from VAT and GNI, both of which are not affected.

Re: Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ireland is in a surprisingly good position to tell the EU off. "Rule in our favor or we will hold it a breach of the treaty creating the EU and leave with the UK." Only trouble is the EU might be dumb enough to call the bluff.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Megol]

The correctness of that is in the eye of the beholder.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Plumpaquatsch]

They can't collect or use that money until they actually win the decision in court

EU will collect interest on it during the appeal period.

The EU will never own more than 0/10 of that money - how they hell do you think they can collect interest on it? Oh wait, there's your problem: thinking. Stop doing that, you always come up with something stupid. Always.

Re: Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll lose the case.

Re: Apple has paid nothing.

[Anonymous Coward]

The piece of shit is in the eyes of the beholder.

Re:Apple has paid nothing.

[Plumpaquatsch]

the governments over there had been accepting Apple as paying it's taxes for over a decade

Not so, this is about back taxes.

"Apple Owes $14.5 Billion in Back Taxes to Ireland, E.U. Says" - your source proves his point in the fucking headline.

Fault?

[balsy2001]

How does making apple pay “back” taxes to Ireland punish Ireland for making an illegal tax agreement with Apple? Not that I agree with the ruling, but shouldn’t the money go to EU coffers or charity? This just sends a message to countries to cut whatever deal you want, if you get caught the worst that happens is you get the money anyway.

Re:Fault?

[JBMcB]

How does making apple pay “back” taxes to Ireland punish Ireland for making an illegal tax agreement with Apple?

More to the point, why does the EU care if Ireland collects taxes from Apple? If it has to do with EU contributions, it's practically rounding error.

Re:Fault?

[msauve]

Because Ireland currently gets taxes from Apple above the proportion at which Apple does bona-fide business there. Forcing equitable payments removes the tax advantages of Apple having profit making pseudo-businesses there, which should ultimately result in their moving those businesses to other locations which can still offer those tax advantages.

It's a long term lose-lose situation.

Re:Fault?

[ShanghaiBill]

More to the point, why does the EU care if Ireland collects taxes from Apple?

Because Apple is reporting profits in Ireland that were not actually earned in Ireland. This gives Apple an unfair competitive advantage and compels other companies to seek similar tax shelters, and compels other countries to lower their corporate tax rates in a "race to the bottom".

There are two solutions:
1. Harmonize corporate income tax rates, so all countries, or at least all EU countries, tax at the same rate.
2. Stop taxing profit. Profit is very easy to manipulate and shift around. Instead, tax sales, or payroll, or dividends, or charge resource excise taxes, or infrastructure use fees, or whatever. None of those can be easily shifted between jurisdictions.

The EU's lawsuit against Ireland is trying to impose #1, but #2 would be better for Europe's economic future.

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Because Apple is reporting profits in Ireland"

Apple is not reporting profits in Ireland, Apple is reporting profits in the United States of America.

"Stop taxing profit. Profit is very easy to manipulate and shift around. Instead, tax sales, or payroll, or dividends, or charge resource excise taxes, or infrastructure use fees, or whatever. None of those can be easily shifted between jurisdictions."

Do you realize that the EU has high income taxes, and the sales tax here hover above the 23% mark for most countries?

Re: Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol no apple is Not reporting profits in the US. At least not any more than they have too. They have various eu and other islands based tax havens to avoid wherever they can

Re:Fault?

[balsy2001]

I get that, but Ireland was complicit in the deal. Their punishment, get $16 Billion. I just think the money should go somewhere else so both sides in the illegal deal are punished currently, not just by the los of future jobs. For example, make Apple estimate where the sales came from in the EU and give proportional payments to those jurisdictions.

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

They have yet to be punished, that's a separate action and entirely different process.

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think they can do any harmonizing of rates with a simple court case. It's more about the application of Irish tax rates, not about harmonizing between the various rates. Rather than rates, it's more about tax treatment which is mentioned in the summary.

Re:Fault?

[s4080326]

A) Ireland is part of the EU B) The EU wants to prevent a race to the bottom on corporate taxes

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop taxing profit. Profit is very easy to manipulate and shift around. Instead, tax sales, or payroll, or dividends, or charge resource excise taxes, or infrastructure use fees, or whatever. None of those can be easily shifted between jurisdictions.

Sweden taxes sales, payroll, dividends, resource excise, infrastructure use, profit, and more...

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Their punishment is nothing. That suit was dropped since they got the back taxes from Apple.

Re:Fault?

[khchung]

So how do you define where profit was “actually earned”?

The product was designed in country X, made in country Y and sold in country Z. Was the profit “actually earned” in X, Y or Z?

The company C paid $50 to designing company A in country X and $50 to manufacturing company B in country Y and sold the product in country Z for $100. Does that mean it made no profit at all?

Companies A and B “actually earned” profits in country X and Y, right?

Both were actually owned by the same company C headquartered in country W. Now, would where the profits were “actually earned” changes?

It is so funny to see people take an purely imagined concept like “profit” and treat it as if a concrete physical phenomenon that can be well defined.

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's one suit. Not the end of the line.

Re:Fault?

[Solandri]

2. Stop taxing profit. Profit is very easy to manipulate and shift around. Instead, tax sales, or payroll, or dividends, or charge resource excise taxes, or infrastructure use fees, or whatever. None of those can be easily shifted between jurisdictions.

I've been advocating this for years. People need to stop thinking of taxes as a way to "stick it to x" (where x = rich person, corporation, someone you don't like). And start recognizing taxes for what they are - diverting a part of the country's productivity to the government coffers to fund government programs. Because the economy is circular (every purchase is a sale, every paycheck is an expense), the point where you do the diverting (the person/company who pays the taxes) is irrelevant. If you tax companies, it just gets passed on to the rest of the economy as lower wages, lower dividends, and higher prices. And on average, everyone pays for the corporate tax. Exactly the same as if you converted all the corporate taxes to a sales tax. Or converted all the corporate taxes to an income tax (profit for a company becomes income for someone else, which can be taxed). Or converted all taxes to a corporate tax.

Corporations are just trickier to tax than people because they can exist simultaneously in multiple tax jurisdictions, which is what allows them to shift income around from country to country. People by definition can physically exist in only one place at a time, making it a lot easier to tally up their income or sales (purchases) and tax them.

Re:Fault?

[hankwang]

No. The reason the EU cares is that a country must treat all its residents and resident companies on an equal footing. Ireland offered lower tax rates to Apple than it does to other companies, which is illegal in the EU.

Ireland is allowed to and does undercut other EU countries in corporate tax rates in order to attract businesses. That practice is frowned upon, but allowed, for the time being.

Re:Fault?

[serviscope_minor]

I get that, but Ireland was complicit in the deal. Their punishment, get $16 Billion.

The EU's job is not to punish Ireland, which in practice means punishing its citizens who had little to do with this. The EU's job is to keep the internal market regular and uphold the four freedoms and so on.

Re:Fault?

[JaredOfEuropa]

It depends on the circumstances in which the deal was made. If there was clear wrongdoing on Ireland's part, then a fine would be in order. But if Ireland acted in good faith and the Commission merely ruled differently on the interpretation of the rules, then the message to Ireland is: "Sorry, but you can't do that. You'll have to collect those taxes retroactively"

Re: Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

So your proposition is that you collect little to no taxes from a multi billion dollar company, worry you're going to lose said pitiful amount, and then keep letting them pay little to nothing to pay for, say, infrastructure

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

I get that, but Ireland was complicit in the deal. Their punishment, get $16 Billion.

That is short term thinking.

Their punishment is that companies see that it isn't a safe tax haven where they can "move" their headquarters.
This means that Ireland has to come up with a better deal than "Hide your money here" if they want companies to stay.
It is going to cost them a lot more than $16 Billion in the long run.

Also, EU doesn't take that money because $16 Billion is nothing compared to the value in getting fair competition going.

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

It should be that the rules are deemed unclear and they should then go through a process of updating and being made clear.

The fact that it's a grey area has worked in apples advantage, and should be allowed and the rules should be tightened up so this can't happen again.

"Play on, advantage".

Re:Fault?

[JaredOfEuropa]

In normal cases about taxes, yes. But it rarely works like this if a tax ruling is deemed to constitute illegal state aid as well. In that case the EC think they have to re-level te playing field as it were, and roll back whatever was given as "state aid".

Re:Fault?

[Tomahawk]

Profits earned from apple products sold in all EU countries were routed through Ireland, thus a phone sold in France was, according to the books, sold from Ireland.

Re:Fault?

[houghi]

That monmey was Irelands money to begin with. This would be like a joyrider giving the car back and you saying it should be given to the neigbour.

Now if you are talking to have fines, that is something completely different. Just because they did not get a fine and charges where dropped does not mean they got a blank slate.

If they try it again, they will be seriously fined, on top of the taxes they need to pay.

Going after the people who agreed with it in Ireland is not an EU matter, it is a matter for Ireland to see if the person or persons did something illegal and to presecute them.

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

More to the point, why does the EU care if Ireland collects taxes from Apple?

It does not.

What the EU does care about is that EU Member States are not granting subsidies that are illegal under EU law because this has a potential to amount to unfair discrimination against businesses in other EU Member States. An extraordinary tax discount is basically a subsidy in disguise.

Re:Fault?

[thegarbz]

but shouldn’t the money go to EU coffers

The EU is not some overarching federal goverment. It's a join agreement of nations on rules. They don't act indepdently.

Re:Fault?

[thegarbz]

More to the point, why does the EU care if Ireland collects taxes from Apple? If it has to do with EU contributions, it's practically rounding error.

The whole purpose and point of the EU was to level the European playing field economically and prevent countries from fighting with one another economically (which in the past has not so indirectly lead to them fighting physically too). The EU's only concern here is that Ireland doesn't offer tax breaks to corporations and gain favourable treatment as a result.

Most EU rules are based around this common economic model.

Re:Fault?

[AmiMoJo]

which should ultimately result in their moving those businesses to other locations which can still offer those tax advantages

Unlikely, because the EU thought of that. The new rules are making it so that corporations pay tax proportionate to how much business they do in each country, regardless of if they funnel all the profit to some tax haven or not. So there really isn't any point pulling out of Ireland, it won't help them.

Re:Fault?

[JBMcB]

Because Apple is reporting profits in Ireland that were not actually earned in Ireland. This gives Apple an unfair competitive advantage and compels other companies to seek similar tax shelters, and compels other countries to lower their corporate tax rates in a "race to the bottom".

That very well may be, but seems to be outside the scope of the EU's charter of things to regulate - primarily rules on trade and travel. Taxation is an internal state matter.

Re:Fault?

[JBMcB]

Ireland offered lower tax rates to Apple than it does to other companies, which is illegal in the EU.

It most certainly is not. There are hundreds of companies across the EU that get special tax incentives, subsidies, etc... And they are absolutely targeted, in the same way Apple gets breaks in Ireland.

Re:Fault?

[JesseMcDonald]

This would be like a joyrider giving the car back and you saying it should be given to the neigbour.

Not even close. Both Ireland and Apple assert that the money belongs to Apple, not Ireland. The EU is stepping in and saying that Ireland must take more of Apple's money in order to comply with EU treaties. In effect the EU is acting as if this money belong to the EU, not Apple or Ireland, to allocate as the EU sees fit.

The EU's problem is with their treaty partner—which is Ireland, not Apple—but their response to this supposed treaty violation is apparently to hand the offender—Ireland—an extra $16 billion. This makes no sense. From an incentive point of view (and disregarding the moral issues with taxation in general) if the EU wants to set a tax floor then the EU should just claim the difference between what Ireland actually collected in taxes and what the EU treaties say they should have collected for itself so that other member countries won't be tempted to make similar arrangements. The precedent set by this Ireland case is that it can be profitable for member countries to violate the treaties; in the end they get the money and an established corporate headquarters.

Re:Fault?

[balsy2001]

The way to keep markets regular is to have punishments as deterents for unwanted behavior.

Citizens of various jurisdictions and socio-ecomomic classes will be punished by Apple forfeiting $16B too, you have just made value judgments about who its ok to punish for this and who it isn’t.

Re: Fault?

[cheesybagel]

In the US they have an office at Reno, Nevada to avoid paying taxes IIRC.
They also park (or used to park) the money of their international operations ofshore in the British Virgin Islands IIRC.

Much of the tax evasion is due to abuse of patents and the like. They have an offshore companies which "own" the patents and license them at a cost which makes the subsidiaries operate at zero profit.

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

The way to keep markets regular is to have punishments as deterents for unwanted behavior.

Citizens of various jurisdictions and socio-ecomomic classes will be punished by Apple forfeiting $16B too, you have just made value judgments about who its ok to punish for this and who it isn’t.

Rather than punish the citizens of Ireland, perhaps we could jail the Irish politicians who colluded with Apple.

Re:Fault?

[cheesybagel]

The EU is a Confederation basically.

Re:Fault?

[cheesybagel]

1) It does not have an army.
2) It cannot collect taxes directly.

Re:Fault?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop taxing profit. [...] Instead, tax sales

There's a big problem with this: it means that, if there's a multi-step supply chain, the production gets taxed multiple times.

For example, consider two scenarios. In scenario 1, company A manufactures foos, at a cost of $10 each, transforms them into bars, then sells the bars to consumers for $12 each. In scenario 2, company B manufactures foos, at a cost of $10 each, and sells the to company C for $11 each; company C transforms the foos into bars, and sells the bars to consumers for $12 each.

If you tax profit, then in scenario 1, you tax company A on their profit of $2 per bar sold. In scenario 2, you tax company B on their profit of $1 per foo sold, and tax company C on their profit of $1 per bar sold, for a total of $2 of taxable profit. The taxable sum is the same in either scenario.

If you tax sales, then in scenario 1, you tax company A on their revenue of $12 per bar sold. In scenario 2, you tax company B on their revenue of $11 per foo sold, and tax company C on their revenue of $12 per bar sold, for a total of $23 of taxable revenue. The taxable sum is higher in scenario 2.

This means that taxing sales/revenue, instead of profit, applies a disincentive to having a multi-step supply chain. (Thinking about it, you'll see how it gets worse the more steps there are in the chain.) This is a *really big* deal. Almost the entire modern economy - including every case in which components are shipped internationally - depends on supply chains, in which companies at different steps of the chain can improve their efficiency by specialising in that step.

In short, taxing sales/revenue instead of profit would instantly and catastrophically destroy most of the world's economy. There are real problems involved with taxing profit effectively - as we see with the case with Apple and Ireland - but your simple alternative suggestion would be utterly calamitous.

Re:Fault?

[thegarbz]

1) It does not have an army.

Maybe not directly, but the CSDP comes pretty damn close to being an army, and it's powers are expanding.

Well you see

[rsilvergun]

punishment only deters crime when working class people are involved. When corporations and the extremely rich are involved there's just too much risk to jobs and the economy to significantly punish. Now don't forget to vote for your local pro-corporate political candidate or they'll ship your job overseas and the price of a hamburger will treble.

Re:Well you see

[Tough Love]

Microsoft finally learned to respect the law in Europe after getting whacked with multibillion dollar fines. Amazing thing: it took more than one. But they eventually did learn to jump when the EU says jump.

Re:Well you see

[AmiMoJo]

Actually we don't punish people for civil matters like this in Europe.

There is no concept of punitive damages when suing someone or some entity. There is no restorative justice, which means the amount of money awarded is calculated to restore things to how they would have been if the problematic thing hadn't happened.

So in this case the back taxes and interest need to be paid to the government that will spend it on the citizens who are entitled to it under EU rules, and also remove the incentive that Ireland has been giving to Apple and others.

You could argue that Ireland should have to distribute some of that money to other countries that lost out on having businesses set up there because of Ireland's illegal subsidies. But it wouldn't be like in the US where there is a large amount added on top of their losses just as punishment, it would be based purely on losses.

well it's a major hardship

[Anonymous Coward]

but if Ireland don't want the 15 billion and change I would be willing to take it off their hands if they pay me a small commission.

FORMAT ERROR

[Anonymous Coward]

No "See subject" text detected

It's not illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

EU doesn't have authority over taxes, and Apple's agreement with Ireland is not illegal.

Apple have paid it back under the previous agreement, I'm sure Ireland will simply word it so the tax discount applies to all similar companies, which is how the EU got its foothold here.... by claiming that Irelands tax rebate for Apple, was unfair to other handset makers based in Ireland (!). i.e. claiming taxation as a national anti-competitive action.

EU withdraws the legal challenge because it would likely lose. It was a claim to regulate taxation disguised as a competition issue with fictional disadvantaged 'other Irish handset makers'.

"This just sends a message to countries to cut whatever deal you want, "

Once again, the EU does not have regulatory authority over taxation, countries CAN set taxes how they wish.

Re:It's not illegal

[Tough Love]

The issue is, Apple cooks its books to create the appearance of earning profit in Ireland that was in fact earned in other European states.

Re:It's not illegal

[Solandri]

So what's the difference between taxing Apple's profit, versus taxing its sales sufficiently to generate the same tax revenue? In both cases the customer will pay $x for an iPhone, and a certain percentage of that will be sent to the government as tax revenue. In the former case, Apple Inc. is the intermediary so gets to play international shell games to try to avoid taxes. In the latter case, the local Apple Store is the intermediary, and hands the tax revenue directly to the government before it can play shell games. Both taxes have the same result (same percentage of what each customer pays is sent to the government as tax revenue), one is just a helluva lot easier to track and collect than the other.

Re:It's not illegal

[cheesybagel]

Sales are already taxed in the EU. It's called VAT. This is about Corporate Tax.

All this means is...

[maroberts]

...that because Ireland and not Apple is holding the money in escrow pending the legal decisions on the validity of the Irish tax legislation and incentives in respect of Apple, there is no need for the EU to take Ireland to court for not collecting the money from Apple.

Lol, "EU could not win against Apple"

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not the US government. This is the EU. They actually get a kick out of taking on the biggest bull in the ring.
If you think the EU has problems just banning Apple from the EU or seizing all their buildings, to make Apple come crawling, you're sadly mistaken.
Apple, with its falling market share, can't live well without us.

Re: Lol, "EU could not win against Apple"

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia should just nuke the fuck out of Brussels!!! Twice to be sure. EU is nothing but a den of thieves!

Re: Lol, "EU could not win against Apple"

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia has a different set of idiots in it's iron sights and nukes are not their weapons of choice

Also, if I steal money, and put it back, thats OK?

[Anonymous Coward]

So I can just commit any crime, and if I get caught, I just undo it, and they drop all the charges?

THAT I like to see happen. lol.

The average person would probably go to prison. I'd like to see the equivalent happen to Apple. Let’s say 2-5 years of theapy in a closed institution for the entire hierarchy of board/management, and the company falling under EU control for 2-5 years too. To eradicate all the criminal culture elements in the company. (I'm the guy who prefers fixing criminals and getting back working members of society, instead of hurting them in childish revenge and breeding even more crime like a moron who isn't better than what he "punishes".)

Apples Smapples...

[Anonymous Coward]

This company is rapidly becoming the poster-child for rampant corporate p*** taking.
Sickens to the core that a company with more in assets than most countries is arguing over taxes.

One reason some people will never ever use their products. Their products represent the worst excesses and corporate evil.

F*** apple.

Re:Apples Smapples...

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly this.
I hope apple executive end up in jail over this.
Some of them should all ready be in jail for lying on the stand when apple lost the ebook collusion trial.
Totally unethical company.

Re:Shakedown? Apple used our infrastructure!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple could bleed the EU dry for all I care. And the countries comprising the EU were evidently asleep at the wheel when the PC and Internet revolution took off. Their only option is to "shakedown" every deep pocketed corporation to make up for their abysmal contributions to the tech world.

And rich corporations are a fact of life. They are what they are. It is perfectly normal to want to protest and condemn some of their actions but that only works when those protesting are not a foaming at the mouth imbeciles who think pithy slogans will save the day. And those protesting and bloviating their unbalanced opinions across the internet don't seek resolutions to fix whatever they are complaining about. Instead the hype up their positions and are only interested in finding someone to blame. Once that is accomplished they move on to the next outrage on their list.

"Tough tits" here can't admit he was wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

"EU will collect interest on it during the appeal period." Wrong. " is unlikely to go in Apple's favor." And yet your guess is irrelevant, and it won't change until it's decided.

Your loose no-teeth threats mean nothing to me, Apple, or anyone. They made money either way, I don't think they're hurting as much as you are lol.

It's weird how you can't admit you were wrong, that Ireland hasn't collected the money yet. You went all this way unable to admit that basic fact that's still obviously true. You're a fucking head case lol.

Re:"Tough tits" here can't admit he was wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

English guy above is right (I assume he's English. Only English people get feverishly angry about Ireland getting cash that they think they don't have a right to! Let's call it punishment for not paying your Brexit divorce bill.)
In reality, this money will be sypphoned off to the EU in the end..not for Irish people do worry not Englishman, your deep state won't lose sleep over your former rebelling colony not getting the money.

Why do Ireland not want tax money? What's going on

[Anonymous Coward]

and what is the deal between Apple and Ireland making Apple suddenly pay what it owes? The whole situation is highly suspect, does anyone know what's going on?

TYPICAL EUROPEAN NONSENSE

[Anonymous Coward]

So Ireland didn't collect 12€ billions. For what reason ?
To preserve the 6000 jobs in Apple Ireland ?
So we (european citizen) were paying 2 MILLIONS FOR EACH SINGLE JOB preserved in Ireland AND at the same times (2010) we were funding a preservation plan for Ireland of 85 billions ?
This should be the least efficient use of public money ever.

Pure european nonsense.

Why don't we just collect the right taxes from the beginning instead of being stolen by Ireland (or Luxembourg or Holland)

Ireland does not have this money

[Tomahawk]

The title is misleading.

Ireland have setup an escrow account. (due to legalities around this, this took some time).
apple have lodged the money plus the interest into this escrow account.

While Ireland owns the account, it cannot touch the money. However, apple's 'debt' is paid at this point (so no more interest is owning on this).

What happens next is various court cases and appeals. Funnily, if Ireland _loses_ these court cases, then it gets all that money. If Ireland ultimately win, apple gets all the money back.

So I'm hoping Ireland lose so that we'll have a few extra billion to do something good with. Too many planned projects have been cancelled here due to lack of funds. We could do a lot with that cash.

Re:APK Hosts File Engine for MacOS!... apk

[f3rret]

; Protects against Spectre & Meltdown + redirect poisoned or downed DNS/botnets/malware downloads/malcript/email malicious payloads... apk

Please explain - in-depth please - how adding stuff to the HOSTS file will prevent speculative execution from accessing arbitrary memory under certain conditions.

c6gunner = "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!"... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

c6gunner shot himself down w/ his FAKEname on a post impersonating me https://linux.slashdot.org/com... & w/ c6gunner altering /. user's words there.

All since I challenged c6gunner to show better work than mine he did & you can't c6gunner "ne'er-do-well"!

Right after you tried to mock me 1st https://linux.slashdot.org/com... for no good reason & I didn't bug you @ all!

YOU DEMAND PROOF OF OTHERS "I've yet to see you provide any evidence of that." by c6gunner on Monday March 15, 2010 @10:02PM (#31490942) ?

I DEMANDED IT OF YOU & YOU FAILED!

* You're FAKENAME trash you childish dishonest punk + YOU are a DO-NOTHING "ne'er-do-well" CHATTERING dolt w/ ZERO to show for yourself!

APK

P.S.=> You say hosts are shit here https://slashdot.org/comments.... ?

50++ /.ers & security pros + RESULTS SAY DIFFERENT:

Proof's here from /.ers https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... from SECURITY PROS https://slashdot.org/comments.... & REAL RESULTS w/ hosts working vs. threats https://slashdot.org/comments.... so EAT YOUR WORDS... apk

c6gunner IMPERSONATING me again?

[Anonymous Coward]

c6gunner your FAKEname's on a post impersonating me & worse is you altering /. user's words https://linux.slashdot.org/com... as I challenged you to show you do better work and you can't after you tried to mock me you hypocrite LYING loser https://linux.slashdot.org/com... .

* You're online FAKENAME trash c6gunner & a childish dishonest punk.

PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH TOO saying what I don't on spectre/meltdown https://tech.slashdot.org/comm... & I haven't had a MacOS X version recompiled for me yet (I don't own a Mac but I have a friend who does & can code (to a good extent, good enough to load FreePascal 3.0.4 + patches & Lazarus 1.8.2 IDE for it in 64-bit to do so but he is a BUSY guy, just waiting on him for it to do this as a FAVOR to me...))

APK

P.S.=> Impossible to deny FACT of your FAKEname (for your FAKE wasted lie of a so-called life) on that 1st post link above you unbelievable loser... apk

You have no idea what escrow is

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You have no idea what escrow is. If the two parties are Apple and Ireland, the escrow account would be held be someone else (a third party), specifically neither Apple nor Ireland. This is literally the definition of escrow.

Wasn't I: It was c6gunner (you I suspect)

[Anonymous Coward]

c6gunner's PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH saying what I don't on spectre/meltdown https://tech.slashdot.org/comm...

I haven't had a MacOS X version recompiled for me yet either!

(He keeps saying I do but I don't own a Mac! I have a friend who does & can code (to a good extent, good enough to load FreePascal 3.0.4 + patches & Lazarus 1.8.2 IDE for it in 64-bit to do so but he is a BUSY guy, just waiting on him for it to do this as a FAVOR to me...))

c6gunner's FAKEname's on a post impersonating me & worse is him altering /. user's words https://linux.slashdot.org/com... because I challenged him to show he did better work than I have & HE COUDN'T after he tried to mock me 1st for NO REASON as I did not bother him @ all ever afaik https://linux.slashdot.org/com... .

* PROOF ENOUGH OF HIM DOING IT IS RIGHT THERE & he has SEVERAL TIMES (see his post history for proof).

APK

P.S.=> He's a jackass (I suspect you're his sockpuppet now actually f3rret) DO-NOTHING big talking BLOWHARD "ne'er-do-well" & nothing more + he KNOWS it PROVING IT above with his "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" when I made a FAIR challenge to him... apk