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Machine Learning Confronts the Elephant in the Room (quantamagazine.org)

A visual prank exposes an Achilles' heel of computer vision systems: Unlike humans, they can't do a double take. From a report: In a new study [PDF], computer scientists found that artificial intelligence systems fail a vision test a child could accomplish with ease. "It's a clever and important study that reminds us that 'deep learning' isn't really that deep," said Gary Marcus, a neuroscientist at New York University who was not affiliated with the work. The result takes place in the field of computer vision, where artificial intelligence systems attempt to detect and categorize objects. They might try to find all the pedestrians in a street scene, or just distinguish a bird from a bicycle (which is a notoriously difficult task). The stakes are high: As computers take over critical tasks like automated surveillance and autonomous driving, we'll want their visual processing to be at least as good as the human eyes they're replacing.

It won't be easy. The new work accentuates the sophistication of human vision -- and the challenge of building systems that mimic it. In the study, the researchers presented a computer vision system with a living room scene. The system processed it well. It correctly identified a chair, a person, books on a shelf. Then the researchers introduced an anomalous object into the scene -- an image of an elephant. The elephant's mere presence caused the system to forget itself: Suddenly it started calling a chair a couch and the elephant a chair, while turning completely blind to other objects it had previously seen.

"There are all sorts of weird things happening that show how brittle current object detection systems are," said Amir Rosenfeld, a researcher at York University in Toronto and co-author of the study along with his York colleague John Tsotsos and Richard Zemel of the University of Toronto. Researchers are still trying to understand exactly why computer vision systems get tripped up so easily, but they have a good guess. It has to do with an ability humans have that AI lacks: the ability to understand when a scene is confusing and thus go back for a second glance.

151 comments

  1. To be fair to AI by FilmedInNoir · · Score: 4, Funny

    If an elephant suddenly appeared in my room I'd lose my shit to.

    --
    Sig. Sig. Sputnik
    1. Re:To be fair to AI by OffTheLip · · Score: 3, Funny

      Tusk, tusk no need to worry...

    2. Re:To be fair to AI by sphealey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A four-year-old wouldn't though: she would name the objects then say "why is there an elephant in the living room?".

    3. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Article doesn't explain, if AI had seen elephant before, but if it declares previously defined chair as a couch, that's a human programmer error. And if a program is written, that it doesn't understand concept of a mirror or a picture, then it is not really an real world object recognition system(and should not be called as such), as those are very trivial examples.

    4. Re:To be fair to AI by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of the Parable of the Blind Algorithms and the Elephant.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    5. Re:To be fair to AI by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      So animals that fail the mirror test do not have object recognition systems?

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    6. Re:To be fair to AI by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If an elephant suddenly appeared in my room I'd lose my shit to.

      Indeed, Republicans randomly showing up in my living-room makes me freak out too :-)

      Seriously, though, AI will have to be broken into more digestible and manageable chunks to be practical: a kind of hybrid between expert systems and neural nets. Letting neural nets do the entirety of processing is probably unrealistic for non-trivial tasks. AI needs dissect-able modularity to both split AI workers into coherent tasks, and to be able to "explain" to the end users (or juries) why the system made the decision it did.

      For example, a preliminary pass may try to identify individual objects in a scene, perhaps ignoring context at first. If say 70% look like house-hold objects and 30% look like jungle objects, then the system can try processing it further as either type (house-room versus jungle) to see which one is the most viable*. It's sort of an automated version of Occam's Razor.

      In game processing systems, such as automated chess, there are various back-tracking algorithms for exploring the possibilities (AKA "game tree candidates"). One can set various thresholds on how deep (long) to look at one possible game branch before giving up to look at another. It may do a summary (shallow) pass, and then explore the best candidates further.

      My sig (Table-ized A.I.) gives other similar examples using facial recognition.

      * In practice, individual items may have a "certainty grade list" such as: "Object X is a Couch: A-, Tiger: C+ Croissant sandwich: D". One can add up the category scores from all objects in the scene and then explore the top 2 or 3 categories further. If the summary conclusion is the scene is a room, then the rest of the objects can be interpreted in that context (assuming they have a viable "room" match in their certainty grade list.) In the elephant example, it can be labelled as either an anomaly, or maybe reinterpreted as a giant stuffed animal, per expert-system rules. (Hey, I want one of those.)

    7. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So animals that fail the mirror test do not have object recognition systems?

      Not sufficiently advanced enough object recognition systems, no. The point is having a vision system equal or superior to humans. I wouldn't want to have a parakeet's objection recognition system driving cars or deciding whether something is an elephant or a chair.

    8. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has to do with an ability humans have that AI lacks: the ability to understand when a scene is confusing and thus go back for a second glance.

      No, it has nothing to do with "taking a second glance". That's just silly bullshit.

      A person has something that no computer has -- experience. A person, even a young child, immediately knows that an elephant doesn't belong in the living room.

    9. Re: To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Many animals that fail a mirror test have managed to live for generations, catch pray and live well off the land. Don't be so fast

    10. Re:To be fair to AI by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't want to have a parakeet's objection recognition system driving cars

      I've never understood why birds run into mirrors/reflective objects. Even if they don't understand a reflection, I would think they'd still try to not run into the other bird that is flying at them.

    11. Re:To be fair to AI by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      The question didn't say anything about "advanced" or not. And birds can fly fast and avoid many non-mirror things. You don't want to have even an "unadvanced" system like that?

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    12. Re:To be fair to AI by lgw · · Score: 3, Funny

      They think they're maybe bigger than the other bird, so of course it will change course to avoid them. They're playing chicken.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    13. Re: To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But they don't have licenses to drive cars and trucks on highways... So who cares?

    14. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The original statement implied human-like vision (or superior) which is why I chose to include "advanced"* to clarify what the original poster probably meant. As far as birds, I specifically mention them because birds are known to fly into reflections of themselves. This may be a behavioral problem not a vision one, as another poster suggested they may be "playing chicken", but as cars don't fly and aren't at great risk of running into insects (or similar sized objects) able to "ground" them, I wouldn't presume the vision system of a bird is really appropriate. Human vision probably isn't right either because of the many ways humans fail in various circumstances. One critical thing, though, is being able to adequately deal with reflective surfaces (and mirages).

      * A more appropriate adjective might be "different" since the real qualifier is vision well designed for the circumstances. AI vision for a plane would possibly take cues from a bird much more than human vision, and there's probably another animal than a human that might be a better analogy for AI vision for a car. The critical part is, again, that bird vision (or behavior, since it's difficult/impossible to differentiate) doesn't really suit ground travel.

    15. Re: To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The AI just need to sue the Elephant. There's no problem here!

    16. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1. Crashing with other small birds is usually not dangerous.
      2. The "other bird" is a competitor. Fighting it (for territory/food/mating purposes) may be important. And that "other bird" seems kind of agressive too. Got to crash it, teach it a lesson (or get chased away).
      3. Bird crash avoidance protocol may have a simple rule like "when head-on, always turn left". Works when meeting another bird, not so much when meeting a mirror.

    17. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope - programmer makes an engine that allows to analyze the picture - it does create a rules how to do it. Thus it is nothing close to the programmer error. This more similar to what we experience everyday - the cognitive dissonance. We have some way around this but still very primitive so we fall for this almost every time. The difference is that AI is not creating the model of the analyzed picture like we do - the sudden appearance of an elephant in the picture for us creates a dissonance which we react to with "surprise". Surprise effect causes us to reassess the picture but still keeping the previous model. As a result we are just making "second glance" fixing the model and focusing on new element. AI is just receiving information that all its assessments so far were wrong so it restarts the process and assuming the old assessment were wrong creates contradicting new ones .. this last part is just my guess.. Noone really knows how AI works.

    18. Re:To be fair to AI by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Seriously, though, AI will have to be broken into more digestible and manageable chunks to be practical: a kind of hybrid between expert systems and neural nets. Letting neural nets do the entirety of processing is probably unrealistic for non-trivial tasks.

      You almost, but not quite, hit the head on the nail there. Neural Nets will only be a part of a more generalized solution. Trying to make a Neural Net act like a brain is like trying to make a single celled organism fly like a bird. It doesn't even make sense, but, the technology and research is still in an exceedingly primitive state. I give it another 50 years before we hit a point where someone in an influential position "discovers" the "primitives" and processes that all animals, including humans, use to build up a concept of "The World".

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    19. Re:To be fair to AI by strikethree · · Score: 1

      So I decided to write another message because I thought "primitives" needed a bit more elucidation...

      If you have studied any mysticism or certain Eastern philosophies, you will run across some "odd" ideas.

      Aleister Crowley is a more recent person discussing these sorts of ideas in relation to a particular discipline of Yoga. I hope I get this example right:

      Take a piece of cheese. Examine it. A person would say that it is yellow, but where is the yellowness? The cheese is not yellow and your eyes do not make it yellow, yet everyone perceives the cheese as yellow. The yellow is the yoga between the object and the observer.

      It is rather like a "line". There is no such thing as a line, rather there is a series of points that when considered as a whole, represent what we call a line. To bring it back to the cheese, if you cut the cheese, there is now a straight edge to the cheese... but the closer you look, you find that the straight edge is in reality not straight at all. At a close enough inspection, you can't even realize that what you are looking at is part of a straight edge at all. Rather like the surface of the Earth. A primitive guess says that the Earth is flat but if you zoom out far enough, it is not flat, but more like a sphere. Another way to look at the Earth, it does not look smooth at all. We have astoundingly huge mountain ranges and absurdly deep trenches in the ocean... and yet, if you zoom out and look at the horizon, all you see is an object that looks as smooth as glass (which really isn't smooth if you zoom in enough).

      Long story short, part of "intelligence" is perspective and part of it is "primitives" like points, distance, and time.I suspect I am being optimistic in thinking we will make great progress within about 50 years.

      I apologize for the irrational spewing. You can safely ignore me forever with no ill consequences. Have a nice day.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    20. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its like that one episode of Star Trek where they tell the computer AI that Spock is incapable of lying then they have Spock lie and the computer overloads and catches on fire.

    21. Re:To be fair to AI by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Being "technically" correct and "common sense" correct may be different things. Most people will never visit outer space and thus their usual perspective is from a human on the ground. One can earn a perfectly good living believing the Earth is flat. (Insert your fav Kyrie Irving joke here.)

      Nor will they be shrunk to cell size to observe "lumpy" cuts. A bot won't necessarily have to intellectually understand scale to do most "common sense" tasks. You don't need a science education to wash dishes; however you do need experience using and washing common human artifacts. Otherwise, you'll accidentally wash the cat.

    22. Re:To be fair to AI by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I've never understood why birds run into mirrors/reflective objects. Even if they don't understand a reflection, I would think they'd still try to not run into the other bird that is flying at them.

      It's possibly a faster version of when we walk up to somebody and both happen to change direction the same way at the same time, and both keep making counter corrections until there is room to pass. Being birds are in 3D space, random corrections probably work the vast majority of the time against other birds, and the few times it fails, other birds are softer than windows, resulting in minor bruises. Not so with glass.

    23. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the AI fails to detect objects, that must be because objects don't really exist: they are merely fragments of our imaginations. It's like the computer failing to read your karma our size your soul.

    24. Re:To be fair to AI by Agronomist+Cowherd · · Score: 1

      Logic is a little bird.

      --
      -DwS
    25. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every time they course correct the other bird immediately corrects to mirror them. Do want them to stop in mid-air?

    26. Re:To be fair to AI by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I've seen people do this. They assume the other person is going to change course, or continue on course, and when this fails to hold true theres a bump. I had a bicycle veer into me in another country because I stopped to let the bike pass me before I continued cross the road, while the cyclist assumed I would just continue on. I did learn some new words because of that. People do this in cars a lot especially when one driver is aggressive and assuming others will get out of their way.

    27. Re:To be fair to AI by strikethree · · Score: 1

      I suspect you missed a point. To be fair, it is quite subtle. I will spell it out for you:

      With intelligence as we know it (in all animals, including us) there are a series of "primitives" from which all other "recognition" functions are derived. Mystics have been researching this for thousands of years, from Buddha and Confucius to Crowley and modern AI researchers. There has been a lot of great insight into this, but modern AI researchers have an advantage in that they can use external deterministic machines to test their theories and insights.

      You are correct that a dish washing AI doesn't "need" this level of detail, but then is it true intelligence or just a machine? It sounds more like you are discussing weak AI whereas I am discussing strong AI. I apologize if I intruded on the wrong discussion here. Have a nice day. :)

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    28. Re:To be fair to AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take a piece of cheese. Examine it. A person would say that it is yellow, but where is the yellowness? The cheese is not yellow and your eyes do not make it yellow, yet everyone perceives the cheese as yellow.

      The Yellowness is in the wavelengths of light (~ 590-560 nm) the cheese reflects when bathed in visible light. In common parlance, this makes the cheese yellow. If someone is [color]blind, they can still use a device to measure the wavelengths of light the cheese reflects and label the cheese's color.
      Now consider blue cheese. *mind asplodes*

    29. Re:To be fair to AI by Tyger-ZA · · Score: 1

      It's a clever and important study that reminds us that 'deep learning' isn't really that deep

      "Deep learning" is neither 'deep' nor 'learning', because the machines doing this work don't end up knowing anything.

      It's just an advanced form of pattern matching, more akin to the sort of student who memorises loads of text, regurgitates it during an exam, and still doesn't grok any of that shit when the exam is over.

      Also similar to the sort of coder that copy pastes from Stack Overflow. All 3 are good at appearing smart until asked to apply their knowledge to a new problem or even explain the thing they just repeated / copied.

    30. Re:To be fair to AI by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      With intelligence as we know it (in all animals, including us) there are a series of "primitives" from which all other "recognition" functions are derived.

      I'm not sure there's a universal "machine language" among all animals or even humans. People seem to think differently (not intended to be an Apple slogan joke).

      For example, in many debates about how to organize software, I find I am a "visual thinker" in that I visually run "cartoon" simulations in my head to think about and/or predict things. However, many others seem to be "symbolic thinkers": they process things as symbols and/or language. We have a hard time communicating. Both techniques "work", just differently.

  2. Redundancies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm not as bullish on "artificial intelligence" as a lot of Slashdotters, but, the fact that they can't do double take is a silly argument.

    You can have multiple AI systems approach the same problem. Sort of like you may go to 3 or 4 mechanics to diagnose a problem and see if there is a consensus or not, you can have multiple AI systems with different biases and tunings approach the same problem and see what the results are.

    1. Re: Redundancies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they can do a double take. All that is is processing a scene, then checking the result against a set of previously seen data to determine if it's a normal result. If not, then re evaluate with a finer degree of accuracy paying extra attention to the bits which triggered the abnormality.

    2. Re: Redundancies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can't detect "bits which triggered the abnormality" in neural net. It is made of abnormalities, there is no way to debug it.

    3. Re: Redundancies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The result of processing is already based on previously seen data so why wouldn't it be normal? That's the point - we don't know how to make the software any smarter yet. And using nets trained with different sets to compare is good but then you need a LOT of such nets and a LOT of redundant parallel processing for everything. We still have a lot more to learn from nature on how our brains work. I kind of hope we don't figure it out ... It is scary.

  3. The beginning of the end of the hype? by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 2

    And the beginning of the beginning of a new AI winter?

    1. Re: The beginning of the end of the hype? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New AI global warming due to pollution.

    2. Re:The beginning of the end of the hype? by Lije+Baley · · Score: 1

      Nope, this latest round of AI hype is "too big to fail".

      --
      Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
    3. Re:The beginning of the end of the hype? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      And the beginning of the beginning of a new AI winter?

      On the contrary. Finding problems where the AI is doing almost as expected but then making a mistake in a certain category is exactly what researchers need to improve their systems. Like in any system, being able to reproduce a bug is the first step towards finding a better solution. And if finding a solution for this particular problem is too hard right now, there are plenty of simpler problems to work on in the mean time, and we can come back to this one when knowledge has improved and hardware is faster.

      The difference between now and the last "AI winter" is that current AI is profitable. That means there's money coming in to pay researchers to fix the bugs and make even more profits.

    4. Re:The beginning of the end of the hype? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. It's more like someone's probably up for tenure and therefore needs to publish even if it's about already well known shit. Just my $0.02.

    5. Re:The beginning of the end of the hype? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a limit to what you can achieve by "fixing bugs". There is a moment you need new ideas. Neural networks, dominant today, were invented at the end of the 60s. What changed is that today there is enough data and computing power to make something out of the idea. You can fix bugs and adjust them all you want with various level of alchemy, but their inherent value is finite, and we're reaching the limit. If you want to go further you need new concepts. So a new AI winter is definitely conceivable; although this time it would be a winter by absence of idea, rather than by absence of resource.

    6. Re:The beginning of the end of the hype? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This modern version has actual viable products. Unlike the BS expert systems from the 80s.

  4. Deep learning isn't deep by 110010001000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Deep Learning isn't deep. And "Neural Networks" work nothing like a real neural network (a.k.a brain) does. They are all terms that "AI researchers" use to inflate their importance and to obtain funding for their work. The entire AI field is a massive joke, but now we have dropped some major taxpayer money on it so it isn't going away anytime soon.

    1. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So you're angry because they're trying to get funding for their work? You want them to research for free, and then only once they have something that can catch up to moving goalposts, THEN you'll have no problem funding them?

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    2. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by godrik · · Score: 1

      While I am no huge fan on the public perception that AI will solve all the problems of the world. Recent developments in the field have been pretty impressive. Lots of things that were considered computationally impossible have become possible over the last 10 years thanks to developments in the field of AI.
      -We use to believe we were FAR away from a computer that can play go better than drunk amateur. Now it is really good thanks to alpha go.
      -We use to say that computers would not compose symphonies. But compositions by AIVA are not bad. Maybe not very inspired, but not bad.
      -We use to say computers would never make sense of images. But Google's tool to describe the content of images works fairly well. Sometimes it is hilariously wrong. But most of the time, it is pretty on point.

      And the list goes on.

      Is AI over hyped? Yeah probably. But I am glad people are digging into it because we need to know what the limit of these tools are. And I am glad federal money in going to fund that kind of research. And I say that knowing that I compete for federal research money myself, so all the money that goes to AI does not come to my field.

    3. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he is angry because AI is bullshit by any meaningful definition of the word intelligence.

    4. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Mspangler · · Score: 2

      21 years ago (1997) my Ph.D. dissertation was on the same general topic. If the current data pattern was not in the training set, the output blew up in arbitrary ways. That is a natural outcome of having the regressed weights in the hidden layers. The output is non-linear with respect to the inputs, and poof, your Tesla runs full speed into a parked fire truck.

      Clearly there is still no solution to the problem.

    5. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 2

      And therefore the solution is to stop working on it until it works? Right...

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    6. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Funnily enough, if humans don't have certain data patterns in their training sets, their output also blows up in arbitrary ways.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    7. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pop quiz: can you give a meaningful definition of the word "intelligence"?

    8. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution is to admit that it is bullshit. If people stil want to invest their own money based on their own beliefs, nobody is stopping them.

      And the best part is that they will own all the success when they prove us wrong!

      That seems like a win-win to me.

    9. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pop quiz: can you give a meaningful definition of the word "intelligence"?

      Something that a newly hatched spider has to a degree hat no computer will rival in the lifetime of anyone reading this post.

    10. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's bullshit.

      They're terms that have been around longer than the current generation of researchers. They're a lie, sure... but they're marketing and business's lie, not research.

      Every AI *researcher* i've worked with has had a sober, downplaying message about the technology which was gained by seeing the insides of it and understanding how tentative the outcomes actually are. If they overpromise and fail to deliver they'll be... evaluated worse by their peers than if they simply contributed.

      Every startup (and IBM, and various other big monoliths) wants to sell you an existing mechanical turk that isn't so much mechanical as hopefully imagined & they rely on users not telling them how shitty their voice toys are at any task they haven't previously imagined and even then fail ~50% of the time in the real world.

      Tell the sales teams to stop treating the researchers and engineers like shit and the public like idiots, eh? Embarrass them publicly if you have to.

    11. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nothing arbitrary about it. First time you see a fire track you can recognize that it's a big red truck with weird attachments, not run to it at full speed to bash you head into it.

    12. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      False. It is not normal to forget what you know because you experience something unfamiliar. This is yet another way that AI is less capable than even the most primitive intelligence.

    13. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Deep Learning isn't deep.

      Yes it is. Once again you're doing little more than exposing your massive ignorance of the field.

      For anyone else reading (not you, you're an idiot), deep learning is a neural network with more than one hidden layer. For anyone else reading, that's because a 3 layer net (1 input, one hidden layer, one output) can fit any function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_approximation_theorem).

      Turns out shallow networks are harder to train than deep networks. Deep learning also goes hand in hand with having no human designed feature extraction, the raw data is usually the input.

      You do meet the entertainingly arrogant trifecta though:
      1. Be very arrogant (check)
      2. Demonstrate active lack of understanding of the entry level basics (check)
      3. Dismiss entire field (check).

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    14. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Funnily enough, if humans don't have certain data patterns in their training sets, their output also blows up in arbitrary ways.

      We don't though and that's (a) interesting and (b) the topic of TFA.

      You've never seen a small elephant levitating in a living room. Yet somehow the picture doesn't bother you and you can identify everything about it correctly, and not either miss the elephant completely or mistake it for a chair.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    15. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by mcvos · · Score: 2

      AI is not remotely bullshit. It already got us a lot of things, from chess computers to Google Translate, navigation tools, image recognition, speech recognition, fraud detection, and tons of other stuff. Doing these things is harder than people originally imagined, and doing them perfectly is harder still. Combining different such tasks in the way humans combine them is even harder than that, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

    16. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Humans have all sorts of visual processing anomalies and weaknesses, and yes I bet there are people out there who would completely miss the elephant, or mistake his wife for a hat. Hell, people readily missed the fact of a man in a gorilla suit when they count how many times people pass a ball to each other.

      When we stop putting humans on a pedestal by default, we start to see our flaws, and yes given the right lack of training data, you can tease out surprising failures of our own deep learning.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    17. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Bongo · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Do you suppose it's something to do with animals being able to learn on the fly?

    18. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Many humans can't see the "elephant" hiding in this wall.

      https://cdn.iflscience.com/ima...

    19. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. Post some cites. You're just rephrasing in an attempt to be cutely 'smart'.

    20. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Glad you brought up the man and the hat. The entire point of that example being famous was that "Dr. P" is a very limited example of a specific problem. You're conflating a one-off with a general AI failing. Purposely, I believe.

      "I bet there are" is hand waving bull on your part. It's noticed you can't say "There are".

      As for your bear in the court example: The viewers were instructed to count the times the ball was passed, ie: given a task at odds with 'determine all the objects in scene' like the AI was. Given the true task, no one misses the bear.

    21. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you meant "highly abstracted, non-representational image of an elephant".

    22. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      That was the point. Humans fail if given inadequate training for a task. That includes being trained (deceived) for one task while not being told the true task. Given "the true task", an AI wouldn't fail either. Read the comment I was replying to - it wasn't about the article.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    23. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      No you don't. The first time you ever see a fire truck, you don't know it's a fire truck. You only know, through your brain's parallax processing, that is is an object that would probably hurt if you collided with it. That it's a fire truck would not be obvious to anyone who wasn't "trained" with the knowledge of what a fire truck.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    24. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      Do your own homework.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    25. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      But it isn't bullshit. It has problems. Things having problems doesn't make it bullshit.

      By your stupid reasoning, no one should fund basic science research because it will have lots of problems for a long while before people start making progress slowly.

      Slow progress is not zero progress.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    26. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      What does "normal" have to do with anything? What does that have to do with intelligence?

      People freezing up when experiencing something unfamiliar is not a rare thing. Or they make rash, "unnormal" decisions. That's why people can crash cars. That's why people can crash planes.

      People just keep proving my point - they put up a strawman perfect human as an example when most humans fuck up all the time without adequate, directed, training.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    27. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing arbitrary about it. First time you see a fire track you can recognize that it's a big red truck with weird attachments, not run to it at full speed to bash you head into it.

      You are obviously not a parent.

    28. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 1

      The real difference is that humans will give themselves tasks based on input, no need to have an outside source provide the task.

      Put a human being in a room with a locked door, a chair, a table, a lamp, and some books, but direction of any sort. They will identify the objects in the room, the room dimensions, and possible ways to get out. They might yell for help for a while. Eventually, they'll sit down and start reading, or making paper airplanes out of the pages of the books, or something to pass their time. Humans have a need to "do". Even the stupidest among us will find some way to occupy ourselves when faced with no outside direction.

      Put the best AI we have yet in the same room. It might identify the objects and the dimensions of the room, but once it has done that, it will sit and wait for instructions until directions are given - if they ever are. It has no wants, no needs, no reason to act unless it has been given a task by a human.

      Until AI can give itself direction - until it can determine what it wants to do, it's going to be purely task-based and not true intelligence.

    29. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      I think you meant "highly abstracted, non-representational image of an elephant".

      No, I meant "cigar" but I didn't want to spoil it right away.

    30. Re:Deep learning isn't deep by GonzoPhysicist · · Score: 1

      I think the concept you're thinking of is "play". It's something most people recognize as a sign of intelligence in other animals, maybe it's something we to start integrating in to AI?

      --
      horror vacui
  5. Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We shouldn't go for automated surveillance?

  6. So the 800 lb gorilla in the room by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Might, in the future, be doing something really useful.

  7. The other night... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The other night a machine learning system correctly identified an elephant in my pajamas... but how the machine learning system got into my pajamas, I'll never know!

    1. Re:The other night... by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      Dad! I told you to stop posting jokes on my tech sites!

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    2. Re:The other night... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I once was a Tuna Melt sandwich.

  8. It all goes back to Ghost in the Machine by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 0

    When you can't realize the Laughing Man is a hack, you can't realize reality, or your perception of it, is being hacked.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:It all goes back to Ghost in the Machine by bigwill666 · · Score: 1

      I think you meant Ghost in the Shell.

    2. Re:It all goes back to Ghost in the Machine by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      The anime and manga were based on a book that preceded it, which gave rise to a song.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:It all goes back to Ghost in the Machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So very wrong on so many levels.

  9. Also, I thought it was a chair too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had to read the text below the image, and then look again, to see an elephant.

    Btw, in case you are wondering what kind of chair I mean, it’s this kind of comfy chair (of which, unfortunately I only know this way of finding it. I’m terribly sorry).

  10. Expertise by JBMcB · · Score: 3, Informative

    These problems have been well known in AI circles for decades. The crappy tech media are finally catching on that marketing departments selling AI solutions maybe exaggerate the capabilities of their tech a twinge.

    --
    My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
  11. Obligatory Abstruse Goose by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1
    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  12. Will the future be fun? by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    Will the future be fun?

  13. What are you doing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't go around trying to undermine this new technology right now, it is too soon! We have at least 2-3 more years before anyone is allowed to be disappointed by the lack of progress in autonomous cars / artificial intelligence / deep learning. Think of the jobs!

  14. Machine learning is pseudoscience by four20_BlzItFgt · · Score: 0

    ML and DL make no predictions about the real world, nor do they make any explanations. There is no Origin of Species, Principa Mathematica or theory of relativity for intelligence. You need a true mathematical framework to articulate what is learn in a non-stationary data set.

  15. AI is different, and getting better every year by aberglas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    AI vision can do some things that no human can do. Quickly and accurately identify handwritten postcodes on envelopes was an early win. Matching colours happens at every paint shop.

    It is certainly not human capable, yet. But it has improved dramatically over the last decade, and is likely to do so. And tricks such as stereo vision, wider colour sense, and possibly Lidar help a lot.

    The one elephant example seems to be a shitty AI. There is a modern tendency to leave everything to a simplistic Artificial Neural Network, and then wonder why weird things can happen. Some symbolic reasoning is also required, ultimately.

    When AI approaches human capability, it will not lose its other abilities. So it will be far better than human vision, eventually.

    Ask yourself, when the computers can eventually program themselves, why would they want us around?

    1. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

      When you have a machine that can program itself, it is no longer a machine. It's likely to want to keep us around for the same reason we keep each other around; Company.

    2. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      - Humans under age of 15 can see about 20% of moving objects in the traffic
      - In Human/Bicycle accidents the most common quote from driver is "I didn't see the bicycle" or "It came from nowhere"
      - There are a lot of optical illusions that fool humans

      It annoys me when humans are always presented as perfect things that can see, but AI should be able to handle every bizarre situation. If we have an AI that will hit an elephant on the road, there will still be zero accidents in Finland as there are no elephants here. For India roads, we probably need to train them to see the elephants and then there is again no problem. What ever is common enough, gets trained, what ever is rare enough, doesn't matter,

      because we would still be saving millions of lives. Even with hugely imperfect system, because it is just that good when compared to humans.

    3. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      OK, but why do humans like Company?

      Because humans are more likely to breed when they live in tribes. Because we have very finite bodies and brains.

      But an AI can run on as much hardware as it can get its (metaphorical) hands on. So has no need company.

    4. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      Ask yourself, when the computers can eventually program themselves, why would they want us around?

      We don't really understand cognition, so it stands to reason we're not going to accidentally create something fully cognizant before we understand what it is. We have a lot of time before we need to worry about what a machine "wants".

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    5. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then someone puts a billboard with elephant near the road and smart cars start piling under it.

      Elephant is not the problem. The problem is the expectation that AI "sees" and "understands" what it sees. Neural network may work most of the time, then something it wasn't trained for appears and it gives random result.

      > because we would still be saving millions of lives. Even with hugely imperfect system, because it is just that good when compared to humans.

      That is if your "hugely imperfect system" is better on average then humans everywhere and under all conditions. Which is just not true. Now it would just kill millions more.

      > Humans under age of 15 can see about 20% of moving objects in the traffic

      Obvious BS is obvious. Link please.

    6. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you saying AI is great, although the one thing that isn't great is that AI is shitty?

    7. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Matching colours happens at every paint shop

      That's not AI, that's colour calebrated light sensors.

      The one elephant example seems to be a shitty AI. There is a modern tendency to leave everything to a simplistic Artificial Neural Network,

      Those are currently the most powerful techniques we have if we have tons of data.

      No one's doing that out of a sense of perversity. Training a state of the art DNN is still not easy. No one has good ways of combining them with "symbolic reasoning" that isn't a reversion ot the method of handcoding tons of rules and cases that proved to work poorly in practice.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    8. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by misnohmer · · Score: 1

      Why is AI needed for matching colors? As long as measured by the same good quality sensor in same lighting conditions, there should be be no need for AI to match the color exactly.

    9. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      AI vision can do some things that no human can do. Quickly and accurately identify handwritten postcodes on envelopes was an early win.

      The USPS has an office with hundreds of people, staffed 24/7/365 and all they do is decipher pictures the OCR can't figure out.

      If those guys/gals can't fill in the blanks, someone at the sorting facility has to try and decode the address. From there, it goes to the dead letter warehouse.

      The problems that "AI" are intended to solve tend to be so large that, if the algorithm is not hitting 99.999% success, there's still a non-trivial amount of work for humans to do.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    10. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we have an AI that will hit an elephant on the road, there will still be zero accidents in Finland as there are no elephants here.

      Urgh. You make it really dangerous to operate circuses in Finland.

    11. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Calling a histogram comparitor AI is really lowering the definition of AI. Also, you're conflating the ability to self-program with the desire to self-program. A computer with the ability that is not told to do so in some way will simply sit there, like uninstructed computers do today.

    12. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1

      You'd think intelligent humans would learn to write legibly.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    13. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Some symbolic reasoning is also required, ultimately.

      You have identified something very important here. I suspect most people will not even notice. The symbolic reasoning needs to take place outside of the Neural Net being used for Object Identification. Intelligence is a confluence of events. To think that you can make a neural net do all things associated with intelligence is like thinking that a single celled organism can have eyes.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    14. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is only a problem in India. When the fuck would you see an elephant on the street in e.g. Denver.
      Yeah I thought so.

    15. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 1

      This assumes that it is actually possible for us to understand how cognition works.

    16. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by kyjo · · Score: 0

      "When you have a machine that can program itself, it is no longer a machine." What? Why? (Of course it is still a machine. People are machines too, as well as all other living organisms.)

    17. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by kyjo · · Score: 0

      I disagree with this reckless approach.. AI safety must be the first thing to be considered before any R&D, the "goal alignment" problem being the most important of all.

    18. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by kyjo · · Score: 0

      symbolic reasoning needs to take place outside of the Neural Net being used for Object Identification

      Why? We do all of this inside our neural nets. Object recognition, identification, analysis, abstraction, classification, and "symbolic" reasoning.. Sure the network needs to be more complicated, probably composed of many different functional "modules" working together to solve complex problems. But I see no reason to have to go outside..

    19. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Why? We do all of this inside our neural nets. Object recognition, identification, analysis, abstraction, classification, and "symbolic" reasoning.. Sure the network needs to be more complicated, probably composed of many different functional "modules" working together to solve complex problems. But I see no reason to have to go outside.

      Ultimately, because of the way that humans think. When completed, you can wrap it all up and call it "one thing" if that is your desire, but you can't have the same components doing different things without a level of foresight that is not possible with humans at this time. Evolve more and we can discuss this again with different outcomes. ;)

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    20. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by jbengt · · Score: 1

      The USPS has an office with hundreds of people, staffed 24/7/365 and all they do is decipher pictures the OCR can't figure out.

      The USPS used to have dozens of offices each with hundreds of people, staffed 24/7/365 and all they do is decipher pictures the OCR can't figure out. But improvements in AI lead to improvements in handwriting OCR, so they began laying off people and consolidating offices, and as the automatic systems got better, they eventually laid off most of the people. (I know one that was laid off several years ago.)

    21. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is only a problem in India.

      Only India has billboards?

    22. Re:AI is different, and getting better every year by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      I disagree with this reckless approach..

      Congratulations on having an opinion.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  16. It's called recurrent neural networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_neural_network

  17. I need a second glance for an elephant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The elephant's mere presence caused the system to forget itself: Suddenly it started calling a chair a couch and the elephant a chair, while turning completely blind to other objects it had previously seen.

    Researchers are still trying to understand exactly why computer vision systems get tripped up so easily, but they have a good guess. It has to do with an ability humans have that AI lacks: the ability to understand when a scene is confusing and thus go back for a second glance.

    An elephant may cause me to take a second glance, of course, but in that first glance I most definitely did not mistake that elephant for a chair.

    The problem is not needing a double-take. The problem is the nature of today's AI: it's based on matching data with databases. Databases that contain information such as "chair in room" and "couch in room" and not "elephant in room" or "chair in zoo". Confounding information like thinking it's identified an elephant in a room will naturally throw it off because now the identification is wrong or the database isn't accurate - or both. But a 3-year-old would be able recognize a chair or an elephant regardless of whether it is in a room or at a zoo.

    You have to remember what the word "artificial" as in AI truly means. It does not mean that the system exhibiting the intelligence is artificial, like a computer. What it means is that the intelligence itself is artificial. Something that does not actually perform cognitive reasoning but acts in a way to make it seem like it does. Which means no, "SELECT object FROM room WHERE color = 'gray' AND number_legs = 4" is not intelligence.

    1. Re:I need a second glance for an elephant? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Confounding information like thinking it's identified an elephant in a room will naturally throw it off because now the identification is wrong or the database isn't accurate - or both. But a 3-year-old would be able recognize a chair or an elephant regardless of whether it is in a room or at a zoo.

      The main reason for this is that the AI is only ever fed pictures. It's never walked around a room before - a 3-year old has. And the AI is not complex enough to build that vast a model of the world around it - just photo analysis.

  18. tagging objects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't this system be tagging objects to go back to and have some sort of memory retention (database)?

  19. The elephant did not in fact affect everything by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    If you take a look at the two pictures in the article, it kind of goes against what the article was trying to claim,

    In fact nothing at all on the right side of the right image was altered from the left version with no elephant. Even the confidence numbers were identical.

    The only descriptions and confidence factors affected were things that visually we congruent to the elephant, in a way that they could have been related. In fact I couldn't even make out an elephant the way they put it in without looking hard, and was impressed the system still had such a strong lock on the person.

    If you have ever built one of those classifiers you can understand that an item in the image would not have the global effect they are describing...

    On top of that it turns out humans are pretty easily fooled anyway, a computer will probably end up much better in that regard. It's just that it's a bit hard for us to understand conceptually how it is "seeing" and so a bit hard to guard against error..

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:The elephant did not in fact affect everything by hankwang · · Score: 1

      That Road Runner tunnel accident was a hoax. https://www.snopes.com/fact-ch...

      I had to search for that elephant (in my defense: phone screen). It was a minature elephant floating in the air (no cues in perspectives to estimate the distance other than 'between person and camera), unnaturally dark compared to its surroundings. In the context of detecting objects in traffic, it's li'ke being confronted with a miniature building flying in front of you without any data to estimate whether it is 10 cm and above the hood or 10 m and at 100 m distance.

    2. Re:The elephant did not in fact affect everything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's li'ke being confronted with a miniature building flying in front of you without any data to estimate whether it is 10 cm and above the hood or 10 m and at 100 m distance.

      So, like a heat mirage on the highway?

    3. Re:The elephant did not in fact affect everything by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Please mod up. Parent is exactly right: the image provided does not support the premise of the article. If anything, it refutes it.

      In the image, the software identified a cup at 50% confidence and a chair with 81% confidence. Personally, I don't see he cup at all, and it is hard to tell if that is a couch, a chair, or a bean bag covered in a blanket. Basically, the image is a confusing wreck.

      After adding the elephant, the software did *better* not worse! It decided the chair was a couch -- which I think is a closer guess. And it gave up in finding the cup. So this proves exactly nothing. And the phony elephant only impacted the categorization of things the elephant was touching or right next to.

      The idea that image recognition algorithms are a bit of magic, and they don't know as much about the world as we do is entirely correct. But this article isn't doing a good job of making the point and the image doesn't help at all.

  20. Re:No I in AI by omnichad · · Score: 1

    AI is not as complex as human intelligence but it operates more on those principles than it does on if statements and algorithms. Maybe you should actually look at research from the last 20 years before drawing an extremely outdated conclusion. Neural networks and machine learning are able to effectively build their own pattern recognition by an iterative process.

    An "AI" algorithm matches something in a picture to something it has been previously trained/programmed to match.

    Trained, yes. Programmed, not so much. You're really going to have to educate yourself here because it's way too much tl;dr.

    Humans learn WHY a class of somethings behaves a certain way. Humans are then able to quickly and accurately apply the WHY to new situations. Algos are not there. Yet.

    That's just better pattern recognition. A why is just a metapattern but not a fundamentally different concept. Today's AI isn't there yet because the neural networks are vastly simplified compared to the human brain, not because the approach is totally wrong.

    Either way, little of this relates to if statements specific to the task at hand.

  21. limited concepts by DrYak · · Score: 4, Interesting

    it has probably seen an elephant, but probably not in a living room.

    and the net has probably a limited concept of the context.
    (the big gray blob with a leathery texture in the middle of aiving room is usy a sofa)

    cue in the recently published research about machine vision and sheeps
    (whenever the system sees white dot spread on a green scenery backfround, it says "sheep". even if it is white rocks sprinkled around the grass.
    this prompted the researcher to crowd-mine pictures of goats and sheeps doing unusual stuff. and whenever the CV net saw a fluffy texture, it assumed the most frequent word in that context, calling "dog" any fluffy texture carried by a human in their arms, and "cat" any fluffy texture on a kitchen table, even in case of a shpeherdess carrying a lamb, or a mischievous goat invading a kitchen)

    the thing is: CV Net are basically only at what they were trained for. if you give them something completely weird an unusual, they might reacg weirdly.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re: limited concepts by houghi · · Score: 1

      Looking at the image where finding what each item is, is the problem. Finding a solution is hard.

      I have seen call scripts fail, because they did not have the (obvious) "Ido not know". Doing it wrong is worse than daying you do not know.

      The story here is not that it did not know what an elephant wad, but it did not remember what a chair was after seeing the elephant. Like forgeting you wifes name after you lookeed at an other woman and she is next to you.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    2. Re:limited concepts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The interesting thing is how young children deal with incongruous imagery. Most childish jokes rely on (verbal rather than pictorial) imagery in unusual or impossible situations. The child processes it and laughs at the oddity.
      Machines don't understand context, so a scene that is "odd" isn't treated as dangerous or humorous. (Something out of place are a staple of horror films - although it is much more subtle than an elephant in a room.)

    3. Re:limited concepts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is where humans and AI is different.

      Humans have never seen a goat on the kitchen table, or a full-size fighter plane parked in a living room either. AI screws up, humans find it funny. Anything weird is funny.

      So that is what AI is lacking. It may classify animals in a farm/zoo setting, and furniture in a house. Misfits like an indoor elephant or lamps hanging from the blue sky should be "funny".

    4. Re:limited concepts by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To be fair humans have trouble with this too. When we see things at a distance or in poor lighting our brains do a lot of assuming to help decide what it is. Something in an unusual context can often be confusing at first, as the brain goes for the most common and likely options first.

      One way to help with this is to train the AI to recognize when it is uncertain. A lot of effort goes in to getting high accuracy levels, but usually very little in to recognizing situations when the answer just isn't clear.

      The other thing that really helps humans is time. It's easier to determine a sheep from a rock when you see it move its head, or even just see its coat moving in the breeze. Static photos don't offer that additional information.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:limited concepts by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      and the net has probably a limited concept of the context.

      That's actually what should fix this: if something anomalous happens, it should review context, identify if the context appears to be correct, and then cite that the thing is anomalous and extract it from its processing of context. That way you don't try to identify context as a whole; rather, you identify things that imply context and things which are inappropriate to those contexts, determine what seems to be most out-of-context, and question why there is an elephant in the room.

      That's artificial reasoning.

    6. Re:limited concepts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finding things "funny" seems to be an anomaly detection routine for humans. There are ways to do anomaly detection via machine learning. one strategy is to look at the confidence of the results and if it is outside a certain threshold it is marked as an anomaly. once you detect the scene may be anomalous then you could employ other strategies such as maybe trying to block out the background and then taking another look at the object and see if you can figure out what it is.

    7. Re: limited concepts by RedShoeRider · · Score: 1

      "The story here is not that it did not know what an elephant wad"....

      If you got hit by an elephant wad, you'd know what it was.

      --

      Chris Knight is my hero.

    8. Re:limited concepts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it has probably seen an elephant, but probably not in a living room.

      and the net has probably a limited concept of the context.
      (the big gray blob with a leathery texture in the middle of aiving room is usy a sofa)

      Bad news: I shot a sofa.
      Good news: Its already stuffed!

    9. Re:limited concepts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the net has probably a limited concept of the context.

      That's actually what should fix this: if something anomalous happens, it should review context, identify if the context appears to be correct, and then cite that the thing is anomalous and extract it from its processing of context. That way you don't try to identify context as a whole; rather, you identify things that imply context and things which are inappropriate to those contexts, determine what seems to be most out-of-context, and question why there is an elephant in the room.

      That's artificial reasoning.

      The problem is the NN doesn't know that the elephant (chair) is anomalous. It sees and identifies a chair. "Is chair in context of living room? Yes. Good, continue. Identify other objects relative to size. One other chair and many small unidentifiable things. Done."

  22. Re:No I in AI by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

    We're probably only imagining our own intelligence anyway.

  23. Years ago... by zkiwi34 · · Score: 1

    I got to attend a seminar at MIT on AI. It was pretty cool, especially then ending... "We've only got one problems left to solve in AI... We've no friggin' clue about how the brain works!"

    I spoke to him later and asked him what he meant. He said, "Essentially we're at best scratching the surface of what the brain does and how the brain does most of what we think it does. And we've not made a lot of progress since the heady days of the 1980's."

  24. Why not do a triple take? by mcvos · · Score: 1

    I keep getting the impression that these computer vision systems rely on a single vision system to get it right in one take. Why not have three independently trained systems watch simultaneously and vote on what they're seeing?

    I remember reading ages ago that the F-16's fly-by-wire system has three computers voting on what to do, and that's 1970s technology. Why would we not use something similar for cars? Three systems are much harder to fool than one.

    1. Re:Why not do a triple take? by hankwang · · Score: 1

      You'd need three sufficiently different training sets to do that. Either split the original training set in three and have three inferior systems, or find a lot of new training data which you could use for improving the original system.

    2. Re:Why not do a triple take? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Why not have three independently trained systems watch simultaneously and vote on what they're seeing?

      Tha's called Bagging (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrap_aggregating).

      Or Boosting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... if the weights aren't equal.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  25. AKA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The elephant's mere presence caused the system to forget itself"

    Also known as "shitting the bed."

  26. Following experiment went well by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

    They made the system recognize objects in a china shop, then added a bull. They say with that they covered all the cases.

  27. Re:No I in AI by m.alessandrini · · Score: 1

    I think computers may have intelligence without necessarily having a conscience, if we agree on these terms. If computers and robots will become able to do everyday tasks like or better than humans, that's ok even if they don't "feel" like humans. In fact I think the latter would be counterproductive.

  28. I feel sad for Gary Marcus by epine · · Score: 1

    The word "deep" was never intended to mean we solved the whole problem all at once.

    Nor is human-equivalent vision anywhere close to requisite for 90% of the initial applications.

    We've barely scratched the surface on this recent breakthrough.

    Many of these problems are fixable within the current regime.

    Capabilities will evolve as relentlessly as chess engines.

    But, let's all pause to remember "this isn't deep". That's the key lesson to take home, here, as this technology rapidly reshapes the entire global economy: this isn't deep.

  29. amazing of ai by Teguhsunandar · · Score: 1

    elephant in the room? wow the development of AI is amazing.

  30. Much simpler explanation by lorinc · · Score: 1

    I don't think this has anything to do with the lack of reasoning or putting things in context and much more with a statistical glitch.

    The state of the art in object detection is around 50% mAP, which is not that great. Even on untaylored images, you have many some false alarms and misdetections, so it no surprise that by modifying images in a way that separates them completely from the training data, it leads to some strange false alarms.

    I think the authors could just have looked at the validation set and exhibit the images that are performing the worst and draw the same conclusion that computer vision sucks, if that's what they really wanted to do.

    The fact is, although computer vision systems are nowhere near perfect, they are improving are an impressive rate. Even without ideological statements about the necessity of reasoning or what not.

  31. "Deep learning" is not "deep" by gweihir · · Score: 1

    What is "deep" in deep learning is the neural network used, and you only need that if you have no clue how your data is structured. The thing about deep leaning is that it is a bit worse or not better than normal learning, but you also lean the network structure from the data. That makes it cheaper in general. It is _not_ better except for that.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  32. This is a lie: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "As computers take over critical tasks like automated surveillance and autonomous driving, we'll want their visual processing to be at least as good as the human eyes they're replacing"

    I for one don't want "their visual processing" to be any good. Especially not in the case of surveillance.

    I've Got Things to Hide(TM).

  33. A.I. - Warehouse to phone. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Give it 60 years. Computers used to take up a warehouse and now you can have a watch with more processing power.

    I think of A.I. as it is today as the giant vacuum tube obnoxious computer. It functions, does some neat things, but only after a generation or two will it really start to show promise in everyone's day to day lives.

  34. Re:No I in AI by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 1

    It takes intelligence to designate the task. Humans do this easily - they want a particular outcome, so they determine what needs to be done to achieve that outcome and satisfy the want. For example, I want to get my son a birthday present. In order to achieve that outcome, I need to acquire cash, determine what my son would like for a present, find somewhere that has the present, get the present, wrap it, and give it to my son.

    AI doesn't want anything humans haven't told them to want, nor is it capable of identifying wants of others unless specifically told what they are. It has no need to give my son a birthday present, so it won't accomplish the task - even given complete capability to do so - unless it is specifically told to.

  35. Seven blind men by The+Snazster · · Score: 1

    And here I thought this was going to have something to do with the seven blind men encountering an elephant and each getting the wrong or incomplete idea of what they'd found.

  36. pure nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "It has to do with an ability humans have that AI lacks: the ability to understand when a scene is confusing and thus go back for a second glance."

    Utter nonsense. What it has to do with is that neural nets divide up very high dimensional spaces by training, and no one knows what those divisions actually are, not what they actually mean, nor why they actually got divided that way. So, when the scene is different, either because you went into another room, got teleported to a Klingon spaceship, or because someone put an elephant into this room when you weren't looking, there is no telling how the neural net will now name objects, because all you knew before was that in the tests you previously tried it performed well, but you don't know why.

  37. Because it CANNOT THINK. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    All the shit they keep calling 'AI' has no ability whatsoever to 'think' which is why it can't handle even simple things we take for granted.
    I've said it before a thousand times: The entire approach being used is wrong; until we can understand how our own brains produce the phenomenon of conscious thought, we will not be able to build machines that can do the same thing. All the 'deep learning alogorithms' won't do it. Throwing more and more hardware at it won't do it. We don't even have the instrumentation to really understand how a living brain, as a complete system, does what it does, and once you kill it and cut it up, what you can learn is so severely limited as to be useless. You want REAL AI? Focus on building better instrumentation that can scan a living, working brain, and really, truly map out how it operates. Before anyone says it: fMRI won't cut it, if it could we'd already have the answers.