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Elon Musk Shows Off The Boring Company's LA Tunnel (theverge.com)
Elon Musk is keeping to his promise of opening the Boring Company's proof-of-concept tunnel to the public on December 10th. The two-mile-long Los Angeles tunnel takes 30 seconds to get through via a sped-up video. The Verge reports: Construction on the tunnel began over a year ago, and extends from SpaceX's Hawthorne, California headquarters, to an LA suburb. Since then, the Boring Company has been selected to build tunnels for Chicago and Washington DC, and has sketched out plans to build a larger network of tunnels under LA, with the aim of reducing congestion. The tunnels will theoretically use autonomous, electric skates to move anywhere from 8 to 16 people along the system's rails at speeds anywhere from 124 mph to 155mph.
The two-mile-long Los Angeles tunnel takes 30 seconds to get through via a sped-up video.
Musk is reported to be working on a version where it only takes 15 seconds, by speeding up the video to ludicrous levels.
This place looks like such a hole in the ground.
Obviously just round numbers, but US media still can't bring themselves to use the quoted numbers. Instead they leave them out and do their best to convert to specific imperial numbers. Duh!
Booooooring!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It's a test tunnel. Most companies wouldn't open a test tunnel to anyone.
You don't just jump into a major commercial project as your first endeavour.
Nobody pushes buttons like our bunny. Big red buttons with labels that say "IGNITION", apparently.
So, it's only of use if you want to go to SpaceX.
Got it.
Ah the real issue raises it's ugly head.... Tunnels are way too expensive and are even more limited than roads. They only go from point A to B and there is no choice about exiting them in between.
Tunnels are great when everybody wants to get from point A to point B and no place else, like from England to France under water or though a mountain. But in an urban environment, they are kind of useless, especially the high speed kind, because a significant number of folks only want to go part way between A and B, and the tunnel is worthless for them..
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
It's a test tunnel. Most companies wouldn't open a test tunnel to anyone.
Maybe they're concerned about people getting hurt, insurance issues, trade secrets .... there are plenty of reasons not have the public poking around.
However, when Brunel was building the Thames tunnel in the early 19th century, he would have dinner parties down there for all the big shots in the city to show that it was safe and to raise money.
Alas, with SpaceX's 80 hour work weeks nobody ever actually leaves.
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So, it's only of use if you want to go to SpaceX.
Got it.
Ah the real issue raises it's ugly head.... Tunnels are way too expensive and are even more limited than roads. They only go from point A to B and there is no choice about exiting them in between.
Tunnels are great when everybody wants to get from point A to point B and no place else, like from England to France under water or though a mountain. But in an urban environment, they are kind of useless, especially the high speed kind, because a significant number of folks only want to go part way between A and B, and the tunnel is worthless for them..
I'm not an accountant working for the boring company so I have no idea about their finances. However, I can see how building a tunnel in certain urban environments might be cheaper than buying land at elevated downtown prices from existing developers- going through legal processes to force them to sell (which usually involves giving the owner of every building you have to demolish above market value) and then clearing away the rubble and debris and then building the road. If there is need for more roads in a high density urban area, underground might just be cheaper.
I think IF there is a financial case for the type of tunnels he wants: urban areas are much more likely to work than rural areas. In fact, it is only in urban areas that it makes any sense at all.
Now, as for whether his plans will work, I couldn't tell you. I know he envisions a whole network of tunnels spidering all throughout the land below cities going more than just one or too places. I couldn't guess if this will work financially or not, or whether cities will pay him. Chances are- he signs a contract to make the tunnels at a price that works for him- and then the cities foot the bill for maintaining those underground tunnels for eternity after that. He will be protected from the maintenance costs and get his pay cheque and leave happy.
I suspect the cost to build the tunnels may be cheaper than ploughing through high rises and commercial districts in some places... but I'm sure they won't be cheap to maintain.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
And what about spice worm attacks or zombie infestations? No, tunnels are a reckless and dangerous concept that we should stay far away from.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
However, subway tunnels are often constructed with 12' or smaller diameter
Can you give an example ? A quick search showed that most are closer to 20'
The problem here is that any "network" of tunnels that intersect or have lots of stops are NOT fast do to simple physics and passenger comfort. There are a limited amount of acceleration you can use and if you have to stop every four to eight blocks that's going to significantly limit your speed. Subways have this very limitation now, Musk hasn't fixed that or has any novel ideas about addressing any of this.
My observation here is simply that Musk banding about with his hyper loop idea AND trying to demonstrate it in urban areas is cute, but hardly useful to anybody. As a technology demonstrator? Maybe that's useful, but it's a huge expense for little benefit beyond that.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Ah the real issue raises it's ugly head.... Tunnels are great when everybody wants to get from point A to point B and no place else, . But in an urban environment, they are kind of useless ....
That explains why tunelling urban metros like the London Underground railway are always empty.
"It's a test tunnel."
We know it's possible to bore tunnels, there's lots of them in use all over the world, so I'm not sure what he's testing.
We also knew it was possible to make rockets. The concept isn't new. He just thinks he can make a better version.
But in an urban environment, they are kind of useless
Are you serious? Urban environment are filled with tunnels. From subways to bypasses to getting to the other side of a river, to anything that needs to from A to B with lots of houses in between, or specifically needs to be underneath those houses (sewers maybe?). Tunnels are primarily useful in urban environments because there's a shortage of space there.
I don't know how good or cheap the Boring Company's tunnels are, but cheaper tunnels would be incredibly useful. (I'm less convinced about Musk's vision of underground cars on moving platforms, but who knows how that works out.)
As I understand, the concept is to use high-speed tunnels to further destinations (like LA to San Diego), then slower vehicles inside the urban areas.
That's silly, verging on stupid. You don't need a tunnel between cities. You only need a tunnel to get out of a city. Once you do that, there's plenty of open land which could be used to build a cheaper surface-based system. The big benefit of the tunnels is that you can go under urban areas.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I could see it working in the US. In the US the rails are owned by companies. In Europe, not so much. So where in Europe they van add a train on the rails anywhere they already exist, in the US the rails-owning company can easily ask higher prices if they think they can get away with it.
In Europe the high-speed trains will have right of way, after that the intercities and then the local trains. At the end their is cargo. That way the more expensive trains with humans on them will be more on time. In the US, a company can easily give advantage over their slower freight trains. And thet is just right of way. You can not force a company to renew their rails.
So where in the US you need to build a new infrastructure, in Europe you can build on the existing one.
e.g. many high speed trains where operational on standard speed rails and high speed zones where added as they where finished.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Tunnels certainly have limitations, but the biggest one is cost. And that is EXACTLY what The Boring Company is focused on - reducing the cost and construction time of tunnels. Tunnels currently cost ~10x what a comparable elevated road would cost to build - if they can make the construction costs roughly equivalent, as they're hoping, then you can get all the benefits of an elevated road, without any of the the eyesore or right-of-way issues, and much greater earthquake safety.
After all, they're not replacing roads, they're complementing them. Got a road that's heavily congested by through traffic? Replace it with a tunnel with very few on-off ramps, so that the surface streets can be used primarily by local traffic, and the underground throughfare doesn't get congested with cross-traffic.
Then there's all the Loop automated transportation network stuff, but that's a secondary / marketing goal.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
It's a reusable tunnel. Shut up!
Exactly this. Many cities have a desire to build or further their tunnel infrastructure. The biggest issues with this? First, it's hugely expensive. Second, it's slow. Third, it requires the movement of massive amounts of earth that must be deposited somewhere (often many many miles away).
What Musk is trying to do is demonstrate how modern tech and some creative thinking can make tunnel building both time and cost effective (something I'm sure Boston would have liked during their "big dig" and Seattle could surely use today). Further, as I understand it, the Boring company aims to transform tunnel waste into bricks that can be used in other construction projects - limiting waste and it's transportation while generating income that can be used to help reduce the overall cost of the project.
All these "tunnels aren't new" comments completely miss the point. That's like watching someone 3D print a figurine and saying "figurines aren't new." The point isn't the figurine, but the process used to create it.
Where are you getting 90 seconds from? From what I can find subway trains generally run every 2-10 minutes during rush hours, or 120-600 seconds between trains. Your basic passenger throughput comparison still holds, just not quite as dramatically.
Construction costs though I must disagree with - the primary purpose of The Boring Company is to revolutionize tunnel-boring technology, which has pretty much stagnated in terms of cost and speed for many, many decades. I believe they're targetting an eventual order of magnitude reduction in time and cost to build a tunnel. At which point yes, absolutely, forget the Loop nonsense, they would make great sense for tiny 12' subway tunnels as well. My sense is that the Loop system plan is still under-baked. If you forgot the outrageous speeds, and just figured your automated skate would take you wherever you wanted to go at highway speeds with bumper-to-bumper traffic but no congestion, then maybe it makes sense - highways have a pretty respectable throughput when running well.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
He is trying to reduce the cost of tunnel building. Subway tunnels cost $150m+ per mile. He is trying to get it down by improving drilling speed and other facets of tunnel creation. So the tunnel itself may end up being not so much to look at besides different techniques used to build it.
Musk talked about this project in an interview last week. He talks about how surprisingly little innovation has occurred in tunneling technology lately. Everything is still running on diesel power, requiring massive infrastructure to feed fresh air to the operation. In early talks with experts, he asked if they were limited by power or by heat, and they didn't have an answer.
So that's a big part of the reason why he started the Boring Company in the first place. He not only had the selfish motivation to alleviate his own commuting woes, he also found an industry ripe for disruption. Just switching from diesel to electric (an area in which he has some expertise) they can greatly reduce the cost, and that's just the first step in a longer plan.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
The problem with that line of reasoning is that the "additional costs" are where tunnels actually take the advantage.
Yes, their stations are more expensive, but they don't have to lay out tracks around mountains, avoid residential areas, or consider (much) the impact on wildlife. Tunnels don't need reinforced-embankment bridges over every waterway. They're (mostly) deep enough that their noise and vibration isn't significant. They aren't going to make any new barriers to existing traffic, human or otherwise.
What makes railway expensive isn't the labor. It's the logistics of complying with the demands of everyone and everything who might be impacted by the project. With a tunnel, much of that complexity disappears, making everything about the project more direct, including the actual route.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
What a load of bullshit. News to me that tunnelling machines are diesel powered, although in a remote aea without electric power there can be diesel generators on the surface supplying the cutter motors by cable. In fact tunelling technology is doing fine without Musk - there have been a lot of big tunnelling projects in Europe recently, with the Crossrail project and the Northern Underground Line extension to Battersea in London alone.
I know things are a bit behind in the USA regarding railways, but even so, Musk deluding himself and his fans that he is the pioneer in railways (so he calls them by another name) and tunnels is a bit rich.