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California Voters Embrace Year-Round Daylight-Saving Time (sfchronicle.com)

Californians warmed to the idea of year-round daylight-saving time, approving an initiative that would urge state lawmakers to junk the annual springing forward and falling back. From a report: With 43 percent of precincts reporting Tuesday night, Proposition 7 was leading 61 percent to 39 percent. It's a long way from here to year-round daylight-saving time. First, the Legislature would have to approve it by a two-thirds vote. Then Congress would have to allow California to deviate from standard time when most of the rest of the nation shifts to it.

16 of 279 comments (clear)

  1. OR and WA to follow suit by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's get real, it's highly probable that both Oregon and Washington State will follow suit. Just easier.

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    1. Re:OR and WA to follow suit by mark-t · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That will be problematic for Washington, where for a period of about 10 weeks in the winter, sunrise already doesn't happen until after 7:30AM, and up near the Canadian border it doesn't rise until after 8AM... having DST in effect year round pushes that sunrise to after 8:30 AM and as late as shortly after 9AM. Peak morning rush hour commute time is 8:00 AM which means that more people will be getting deprived of having sunlight exposure at all early in the day, which is a very critical aspect of maintaining proper melatonin levels and having a healthy sleep cycle. This, in turn, is going to cause a sharp uptick in the number of health disorders related to inadequate sunlight exposure and/or restful sleep... having that extra hour in the evening might be convenient, but does not convey the same health benefits as exposure to sunlight shortly after waking up.

      But hey.... gotta love those unintended consequences, right?

      #eyeroll

    2. Re:OR and WA to follow suit by Strider- · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As someone who lives in Vancouver, BC, I’m all for sticking with DST year ‘round. While it means that the morning commute will be dark, it’s dark already. Sticking to DST year ‘round means that i’ll At least have some dusk and natural light for the drive home, or even when I’m at home after work.

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    3. Re:OR and WA to follow suit by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is to maximize sunlight hours when people aren't at work or school. Yes morning commutes will become more hazardous but you'll have more nature light for whatever outdoor activities after work.

      And evening commutes will become much, much less hazardous. People can easily use artificial lighting to wake themselves up in the morning for their morning drives. But at the end of a long day, when they get in the car for their evening drives, they're tired, so darkness has a much bigger impact. Thus, I would expect a significantly larger reduction in traffic deaths from moving to year-round DST when compared with moving to year-round ST.

      Of course either approach is better than the two days of carnage that we get under the current scheme.

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    4. Re:OR and WA to follow suit by Strider- · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I’m guessing you don’t live up here. I work a typical white collar, 9-5 job with a relatively short commute (~30 minutes or so).

      Right now, for the months of December and January, working that schedule means that I basically never see the sun except through the windows at work (and when I take a walk at lunch). Sunrise at the winter solstice is roughly 8:39am, and sunset is at 16:26. It’s deep into the dark by the time I get home.

      Sticking to DST means that the sun rises at 9:39, which means it’s no difference to me since I’m already waking up in the dark, but sunset is at 1726, meaning that I at least get to watch it go down as I drive home, and have some dusk as I’m out and about.

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    5. Re:OR and WA to follow suit by fibonacci8 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Except that it's not, including according to the video you linked.
      https://www.businessinsider.co...

      Granted, carnage is a bit of an exaggeration to describe it...

      There is a measurable change in health related deaths near one solstice. There's is a roughly equivalent and opposite health benefit near the following solstice. A non-trivial number of people die as the result of the one, and aren't there to enjoy the benefit that follows.
      Perhaps calling it government mandated human sacrifice would be more appropriate. It's certainly more accurate.


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    6. Re: OR and WA to follow suit by edwdig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most people hate how early it gets dark after the change from Daylight Saving Time to Standard Time. Most people don't understand the time zones that well and refer to the act of changing the clocks as "Daylight Savings Time".

      Permanent Daylight Saving Time is what most people want, but most people don't understand time zones well enough to express the idea properly.

    7. Re:OR and WA to follow suit by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      #eyeroll

      That's about the only part of your post that is relevant. The rest of your post comes across the same way as all the other pro / anti DST arguements such as the curtains fading, the cows getting upset and every other bit of bullshit.

      An hour change in the morning won't affect humans in the slightest. You want a healthy sleep cycle? Sleep at healthy intervals. Your "body clock" is not your master and if you for some reason are its slave then get yourself some blackout curtains and sunrise alarm clock and let the rest of the human race enjoy the additional sunshine.

      Sidenote: Only good things come from not having peak hour *during* sunrise. The accident rate is the highest at any point in the day right as the big bright ball crosses the horizon.

  2. Re:What the hell? by Dan+East · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What they are saying is instead of going with the natural time (noon is midday, and midnight is... well, midnight), they want to keep the shifted time where we get up an hour earlier, so that we have more daylight later in the day after work.

    It's interesting because two issues are being convoluted. One is having to change times twice a year, and the other is it getting dark earlier than people want. The former is a pain in the butt and disruptive, the latter is natural.

    The "right" way to do it is do away with time changes and DST, and simply move schedules an hour earlier. School starts an hour earlier, work starts an hour earlier, etc. But apparently this is psychologically too difficult to embrace so instead we'll just pretend 8 PM is 9 PM, and call "6 AM" "7 AM", so we don't think we are waking up earlier and going to be earlier.

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  3. Re:What the hell? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Informative

    There is. It's called Pacific Daylight Time, or Mountain Standard Time. Or UTC-07.

  4. Re:What the hell? by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Informative

    No, the headline is sort of wrong. The oficial summary includes "Permits the Legislature by two-thirds vote to make future changes to California’s daylight saving time period, including for its year-round application, if changes are consistent with federal law." So it could mean that the legislature could change DST to happen on different dates as well.

    And I voted against it I think. Permanent DST is stupid, where as permanent abandonment of DST is smarter. I agree that the change in time twice a year is dumb, but permanently being off by an hour and effectively being in a different time zone altogether is dumber. I think it's confusing to people who just want to get rid of the twice a year time change but who don't realize that DST is not the "standard" time.

    Overall this proposition will have zero effect because states can't change these rules unilaterally. However, currently states are allowed to choose to not have DST at all, which applies to most of Arizona, and California probably doesn't even need a proposition for that. Hopefully the legislators are smart enough not to push forward with this.

  5. Re:What the hell? by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The "right" way to do it is do away with time changes and DST, and simply move schedules an hour earlier. School starts an hour earlier, work starts an hour earlier, etc. But apparently this is psychologically too difficult to embrace

    It's more about coordination than psychology. Maybe software developers are used to flexible hours but retail, healthcare, transportation and a lot of other sectors are tied to the clock. What happens if the school changes but work doesn't? What about contracts that specify working hours? Are stores willing to switch if customers split between early and late? What about rules for overtime pay that kick in at night? There's a million little things that make it easier for a majority to change the time zone rather than change everything else and then those who don't like it can try scheduling things an hour later if they can.

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  6. Re:What the hell? by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I like to have dinner around 6:30 PM. I could wait until each member of my family happened to be hungry and then feed them individually, but I don't. Because we all know dinner is coming at 6:30, everyone times their earlier meals they're ready to eat at 6:30. This is not natural behavior, but neither is it somehow underhanded. It's simply a logistical convenience made possible by the invention of the clock.

    That's pretty much how all non-agrarian work is coordinated: we agree on when we'll show up for work and when we get home.

    The purpose of daylight savings was to give people working industrial jobs more daylight leisure time in the summer. Remember, when it was first adopted electric lighting wasn't something those people would have. They could have got the same effect by telling everyone in your society to adjust their schedule twice a year, but the government doesn't regulate the start and end time of work shifts. It *does* regulate the time standard, making that the simplest mechanism for accomplishing this.

    Daylight savings never made sense in near-tropical or near-arctic regions. Nor is the case for shifting back and forth between standard and daylight savings compelling in a world of ubiquitous electric lighting. You can either stick with standard time, and lose summer daylight leisure time, or stick with savings time year round, getting ready for work in the winter with the aid of light bulbs.

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  7. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  8. Re:What the hell? by adolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nobody's suggesting getting rid of the clock.

    But even as it stands, some businesses are open from 6-2, some are 7-4, others from 8-5, some are 8-4, and some are 10-6 [...]. It seems that we get along just fine with these already-wide variations in operating hours, where the first-shift factory worker's day is half-gone before the shop that is open from 10-6 even opens the doors. This is normal and it works as well as it needs to. Further discussion of this aspect is a really stupid thing to be doing.

    Plenty of us are fed up with the twice-yearly tomfoolery of changing the clocks, though.

    Solar noon happens at the same time every single day of the year for a given meridian.

    If we stop doing DST, then the days just get shorter as winter approaches: The sun comes up a bit later, and goes down a bit earlier. The opposite happens after winter is over and the days get longer. No big deal.

    If you need daylight to perform your job, you're already adjusting your schedule based on the sun.

    The rest of your questions can be answered with "Figure it out once, and then write it down. And then change it later if it seems like a good idea." Just like every fucking thing else in business.

  9. Re:What the hell? by Nutria · · Score: 3, Informative

    Just get up and hour earlier and go to work an hour earlier

    Unless you need to work with people who work 8AM-5PM, not 6AM-3PM.

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