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IBM: Chip Making is Hitting Its Limits, But Our Techniques Could Solve That (zdnet.com)

IBM has devised materials and processes that could help improve the efficiency of chip production at the 7nm node and beyond. From a report: The company's researchers are working on challenges in the emerging field of 'area-selective deposition', a technology that could help overcome limitations on lithographic techniques to create patterns on silicon in 7nm processes. Semi Engineering has a neat account of lithographic patterning and why at 7nm there's growing interest in area-selective deposition. Techniques such as 'multiple patterning' helped ensure integrated circuits kept scaling, but as chips have shrunk from 28nm to 7nm processes, chipmakers have needed to process more layers with ever-smaller features that need more precise placement on patterns. Those features need to align between layers. When they don't, it leads to 'edge placement error' (EPE), a challenge that Intel lithography expert Yan Borodovsky believed lithography couldn't solve and which would ultimately impede Moore's Law.

50 comments

  1. Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by rfengineer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Figure out how to solve the quantum tunneling gate leakage power problem and you've got a winner. Photolithography has never been identified as a show stopper to continued gate shrinkage. Gate leakage at these dimensions is.

    1. Re: Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there will be consequences for your lies!!!!! I have no idea what they are but rest assured there will be consequences lol

    2. Re: Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like what? If they try this and it does not work, who is holding the bag and what happens to them?

    3. Re: Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The op had a stupid suggestion, but that's why he has insightful tag on slashdot. Instead, why don't they just work on speeding up electrons? That would solve the problem too. While they are at it, work on lowering heat emission, and speed up the speed of light.

    4. Re:Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There may not be any such material. Regardless, we have hit fundamental limits to Moore's law imposed by quantum mechanics. The only possible break-through would be higher temperature superconductors, which may allow us to utilize a 3rd dimension in fabrication.

    5. Re:Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by RoccamOccam · · Score: 1

      Why are you wasting your technical ability posting to Slashdot when you could be leading IBM's chip division?

      Maybe rfengineer does both!

    6. Re:Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heat prevents a 3D chip? Lay down a thick layer of heat conductive material, before the next layer of logic. Ok, you won't get 80.000 layers that way, perhaps only 800.

    7. Re:Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heat may not prevent but certainly doesn't help 3D chips.
      A heat conducting layer just helps heat up the adjacent logic layer more quickly and won't nearly as well help move the heat move sideways off the stack as you might think.
      IIRC When Eric K Drexler proposed mechanical nanotech computers, his idea was to use microfluidic channels to remove heat from 3D computers.

    8. Re:Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Megol · · Score: 1

      Really? My impression is that problems like those of shot noise inherent in the optical lithographic process are significant for continued scaling.
      Leakage due to quantum tunneling can't be solved anyway except by increasing the gate dielectric thickness.

    9. Re: Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by TimMD909 · · Score: 1

      My guess is that they want to start drastically increasing the number of layers, without shrinking the gates or anything. Imagine a CPU cube that's made of 1000+ layers. EPE then becomes way more important than gate leakage.

    10. Re:Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Tough+Love · · Score: 0

      Uh... translation: "I have no clue what they're talking about so I will spout about this thing I heard about years ago."

      Lithography has got plenty of show stoppers. Maybe you haven't heard about the transition from transmissive to reflective optics, to name one gigantic issue. Ever heard the word "pellicle?"

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    11. Re:Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Heat prevents a 3D chip? Lay down a thick layer of heat conductive material, before the next layer of logic. Ok, you won't get 80.000 layers that way, perhaps only 800.

      You will not get any layers that way; any thin heat conductive layers between chips just does not support the needed increase in thermal conductivity needed to help significantly.

      High performance chips have been thermal limited for many process generations now. Anything which increases the junction to surface thermal resistance will just make them more thermal limited. About the only thing which would help for a single chip is a better heat spreader made of something with a better thermal conductivity than copper like diamond. The power density is so high that even a heat pipe cannot be used without a heat spreader.

      That leaves convection cooling through microfluidics to remove heat through the volume of the chip if it is feasible.

    12. Re:Uh... Wrong Problem IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and IBM had a patent (or at least a major tech announcement) regarding a microfluidics system. It was a few years back and concerned using water in IC chips. There are obvious compatibility problems with water in an electrical chip but IBM claimed to have solved those.

      Might be this announcement here:

      https://www.cytofluidix.com/ibm-researchers-try-to-build-thermal-management-into-microfluidic-chip-designs/

      They also sponsor microfluidics research in other areas, especially medical diagnostics:

      https://www.technologyreview.com/s/416410/ibms-move-in-microfluidics/
      https://www.zurich.ibm.com/st/precision_diagnostics/

  2. Meanwhile, TSMC are already working on 7nm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With 7nm chips currently being produced in the tens of millions.

    1. Re:Meanwhile, TSMC are already working on 7nm by Solandri · · Score: 2

      nm aren't comparable between companies. Each foundry is referring to a different thing when they call their process "x nm".

      For example, TSMC's 7nm process yields 83 million transistors per mm^2. Meanwhile, the 10nm process Intel was working on yielded 100 million transistors per mm^2, indicating its average component size was smaller despite having a larger nm name. In fact, TSMC's 7nm process yields only twice the transistor density of Intel's 14nm process, not 4x as you'd expect if the nm were referring to the same thing.

  3. This is one of those articles... by BringsApples · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...that, probably, only a few people here will understand. I'll simplify it:
    They want to work at a very small scale, using very big words. /s

    --
    Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    1. Re:This is one of those articles... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      "Chip making has hit it's limits"

      Oh no! What am I going to do now?!

      "Our techniques could solve that"

      Oh thank goodness! Do you take Bitcoin?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  4. IBM : dead, iconic brand of a has been , like Sear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is some research twaddle that if / maybe / someday. My question is, how are they going to get this to market? License to ARM?

    It's sad. I worked for them when they created the PC (yes, that long ago). They've right sized themselves into a company that used to be meaningful. I guess they'll live off of mainframe and whatnot for a whole, but...

  5. Perhaps improve software first by Viol8 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Instead of using lots of scripting languages and VM with frameworks that suck up huge volumes of memory and are so poorly written they require large amounts of CPU time to do very little, perhaps there should be a return to an emphasis on more effcient compiled languages that only use what resources they need at any given time.

    Yeah I know, get off my lawn etc. But that fact that script kiddy coders don't like being told that their toy language is a bloated CPU hogging mess doesn't change the reality of the situation.

    1. Re:Perhaps improve software first by slack_justyb · · Score: 0

      You aren't wrong. However, a lot of projects have unreasonable time frames for deployment for that optimization part. There's steps to help try to make that optimization more automatic, like tree shaking, VMs that run closer to metal, lighter containers, document parsers that automatically create an index... But yeah, we need better resource management and we need people who make the calls and set the timelines to understand that it's better if we focused on optimization in the long run.

    2. Re:Perhaps improve software first by Jeremi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      False choice detected.

      The beauty of more-efficient hardware is that it will improve the performance of all software -- bloated and non-bloated alike.

      In the meantime, there's no need to wait on IBM (or to demand that IBM wait on us) to start writing non-bloated software, we can start doing that today. With or without IBM's magic beans, anyone who does so gains a competitive advantage over those who do not.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    3. Re:Perhaps improve software first by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 2

      This. I still remember when a browser (for example purposes) just needed a few MB to work (actually, mostly static pages and just a few simple javascripts but being honest did not needed much else). Now a browser to do the same job starts at over 256MB of RAM, which is more than most of the desktops of the era dreamed of having.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    4. Re:Perhaps improve software first by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 4, Informative

      Optimization is not even the problem in most cases. I have seen idiots who, being unable to understand (or worse, not interested in learning) how to properly use the existing resources of the operating system, they decide to make their own frameworks/VMs and end up making a mess that uses three times more resources than the native operating system functions and with three times as many defects.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    5. Re:Perhaps improve software first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember when chrome was sold as being a fast browser.

    6. Re:Perhaps improve software first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In China only old people remember that.

    7. Re:Perhaps improve software first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you're right. Lets rewrite everything in C. Get to it.

  6. One platform at a time by tepples · · Score: 1

    Instead of using lots of scripting languages and VM with frameworks that suck up huge volumes of memory and are so poorly written they require large amounts of CPU time to do very little, perhaps there should be a return to an emphasis on more effcient compiled languages that only use what resources they need at any given time.

    With VMs:

    Start $APP Now

    Without VMs:

    We're Sorry!
    $APP is not yet available for $PLATFORM. We apologize for the inconvenience. [System Requirements]
    To purchase a device that runs $APP: [Shop PCs] [Shop Mobile]
    To be notified when preorders for $APP on $PLATFORM become available: [Join $APP Ports Mailing List]

    In an environment with "more efficient compiled languages" replacing VMs and big frameworks such as React or Qt, how would you recommend to bridge platform gaps?

    1. Re:One platform at a time by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      Most *progams* only run on one architecture anyway but perhaps you've not heard of compile time options in code that allow you to use the same source code for multiple platforms.

      Do you actually work with computers or did you get lost here on the way to Facebook?

  7. Reversible moon shot by cdibbs · · Score: 2

    I hope someone or many someones out there are working on reversible computing. It sounds like the only long-term way forward. https://spectrum.ieee.org/comp...

    1. Re:Reversible moon shot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't hold your breath.

      So far they haven't even made practical circuit (meaning not just a few gates but a complete system, no matter how simple) that demonstrates the advantages. In theory there are lots of them, in practice, well, it's still unclear if it can be done at all, physics might still throw you a curveball when you try to build a fast, complete system with it.

  8. IBM: We're still relevant, honest! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why won't anyone belieeeeeve us?

    1. Re:IBM: We're still relevant, honest! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, IBM does have the Power line. That gives them a lot of credibility in this space. But then IBM has been trying to sell off Power for... how many years now?

  9. Re:IBM Nazi Holocaust Results Speak Volumes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're next on their lists, Americans.

    Don't worry Comrade, we'll be spreading our special brand of democracy and freedom to your land soon enough.

  10. Re:IBM : dead, iconic brand of a has been , like S by ogdenk · · Score: 2

    What did you do there AC? Empty trashcans or get coffee for people with a clue?

    Basic R&D is what got us the cool toys we have today. Companies doing research for the sake of research that may not be immediately profitable. This is what brought us wonderful things like the UNIX operating system and the microprocessor.

  11. Sharing view code; cross-testing by tepples · · Score: 1

    Most *progams* only run on one architecture anyway but perhaps you've not heard of compile time options in code that allow you to use the same source code for multiple platforms.

    If you have designed your application with a model-view-controller paradigm, you can reuse the model layer across multiple platforms. However, you cannot so easily reuse view code across Win32, Cocoa, X11, Android, and Chrome OS DOM platforms without a multi-platform framework such as Qt, and I assume Qt is one of the "frameworks that suck up huge volumes of memory" that you mention. And even if you cross-compile your application to a platform that you don't have, it's a bit harder to cross-test the responsiveness of a GUI application, such as to test the macOS and iOS ports of your application without owning a Mac and an iPhone or iPad.

    1. Re:Sharing view code; cross-testing by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the heads up on your 1990s design pattern knowledge, but I was talking mainly about backend code on proper computers, not silly little smartphone apps. As for Qt, its one of the better ones out there.

    2. Re:Sharing view code; cross-testing by tepples · · Score: 1

      I was talking mainly about backend code on proper computers

      And I was talking about frontend code on proper computers. You'll have trouble building an application using X Athena Widgets for a non-*n?x target, one using Win32 for a non-Windows target, or one using Cocoa for a non-macOS target. If Qt papers over these differences and isn't considered bloat, that's solved. But the difficulty of testing an application for a platform you don't own remains, particularly if you don't yet have enough capital to set up an in-house testing lab.

    3. Re:Sharing view code; cross-testing by pezezin · · Score: 1

      I have coded in Qt for years. It's really pleasant to use, and not bloated at all. Yes, on Windows the DLLs take quite a big amount of space, but only on disk, not so much when running the program.

      A framework that sucks huge amounts of memory and that runs on top of an scripting language is Electron.

  12. Why IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IBM sold their chip manufacturing facilities to Global Foundries. They literally laid off all of the people capable of creating microchips. Now IBM is saying that they have a new technology that will solve chip manufacturing issues? Sounds like another patent ploy to me.

  13. I didn't known IBM was still researching SemiTech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did they sell all of their semiconductor business except designing POWER chips to Global Foundries?

  14. Re:IBM Nazi Holocaust Results Speak Volumes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like the spreading kind!

  15. Re:I didn't known IBM was still researching SemiTe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They did not sell it, because they did not get money for it.
    They bought getting out of the semiconductor manufacturing business by giving GloFo their factory and a significant amount of money (I remember about $1.5bn but don't quote me on this).
    Now IBM is, among other things, a fabless chip design company (like many others), since they design the Power and Z (mainframe) processors.

  16. DIPP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not keep it simple, & return to the DIP package (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_in-line_package). What I wouldn't give for a desktop with a multi-level backplane & card-cages.

  17. Improved programmer productivity at cost of CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are programmer boot camps, which can turn people with limited experience in programming, into low end developers for specific web programming stacks, complete with experience in certain IDEs. For a sub top 1000 web site, the bloat will be economically worth it. A well visited web site, like Amazon, will spend the bucks on good programmers, and avoid the bloated frameworks.

  18. Re:IBM : dead, iconic brand of a has been , like S by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is what brought us wonderful things like the UNIX operating system

    quote the opposite. multics tanked, OS research was BANNED. employee(s) who had their computer/OS taken away decided to write a spare one. started one person IIRC. on company time. borrowed a computer from another department.

    when it was discovered, they could have been fired and perhaps "theft of company resources (computing time, power) " ... instead "make a word/text processing type system for office use, and we'll sell that, with the OS underneath"

    other unix people covered this up partially, not necessarily for ego or embarrassment, but likely a) guilty parties themselves, part of an agreement b) still on company dime/time, just basic marketing thing.

    skunkworks from day one. you take their os/computer away from an operating system research people, tell them they can "Design" but no longer implement since multics tanked ....well, that is what happens. they come up with a new one anyway.

    it was DESPITE management and IN SPITE OF "companies doing research" that got UNIX.

    they had forbidden it at that point, due to overhype of multics and it failing to be the ONE operating system to rule them all, licking their wounds.

    the "OS research team" IGNORED what they were told to do (no more implementing)

    i can totally see IBM doing the same thing. dunno if an employee would ignore them and do it anyways.

    to research this, read interviews from the unix people.

  19. DLL download cost at $10/GB by tepples · · Score: 1

    Yes, on Windows the DLLs take quite a big amount of space, but only on disk

    Is this true of macOS as well? This becomes doubly important as Macs switch to SSDs. And for developers who have a lot of users stuck behind satellite Internet or cellular tethering at $5 to $10 per GB, how well do Qt DLLs compress for distribution?

    Besides, testing cross-compiled macOS binaries can still prove expensive for a micro-ISV.

    1. Re:DLL download cost at $10/GB by pezezin · · Score: 1

      I have never owned a Mac, nor do I plan to do so, so I can't answer your question.

      Regarding compression, I just did a test with the first Qt5 program I could find installed on this Windows machine. Uncompressed size 57 MB, compressed size 18 MB. If you build Qt yourself and statically link only what you really need, I think the size would be smaller.