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Richard Stallman Criticizes Bitcoin, Touts a GNU Project Alternative (coindesk.com)
Richard Stallman doesn't like bitcoin, and has never used it, reports CoinDesk:
To Stallman, bitcoin isn't suitable as a digital payment system. His biggest complaint: bitcoin's poor privacy protections. He told CoinDesk, "What I'd really like is a way to make purchases anonymously from various kinds of stores, and unfortunately it wouldn't be feasible for me with bitcoin." Using a crypto exchange would allow that company and ultimately the government to identify him, he said.... Asked what he thought about so-called privacy coins, Stallman said he'd gotten an expert to assess their potential, and "for each one he would point out some serious problems, perhaps in its security or its scalability." And speaking broadly, Stallman continued: "If bitcoin protected privacy, I'd probably have found a way to use it by now."
Fortunately, Stallman's GNU Project has a better answer: The GNU Project, which Stallman founded, is working on an alternative digital payments system called Taler, which is based on cryptography but is not -- forgive the hair-splitting -- a cryptocurrency. The Taler project's maintainer Christian Grothoff told CoinDesk that the system is, rather, designed for a "post-blockchain" world.... It's based on blind signatures, a cryptographic technique invented by David Chaum, whose DigiCash was among the first attempts at creating secure electronic money. Plus, Taler's attempt to create a digital money that resists surveillance by governments and payments companies aligns it with many cryptocurrency projects.
Yet, Taler does not attempt to bypass centralized authority. Payments are processed by openly centralized "exchanges" rather than peer-to-peer networks of miners because, Grothoff said, such a system "would again enable dangerous, money laundering kind of practice." Indeed, in a break with the anti-government ethos that has tended to characterize bitcoin and some of its peers, Taler's design explicitly tries to block opportunities for tax evasion.... Privacy in the Taler system, then, is limited to users spending their digital cash. They are shielded from surveillance because, Grothoff said, "the exchange, when coins are being redeemed, cannot tell if it was customer A or customer B or customer C who received the coin, because they all look identical from the exchange. Nobody," he added, "exactly knows who has how many tokens." Merchants (or anyone) receiving payments, on the other hand, do so visibly and in the open, making it possible for governments to assess taxes on their income -- not to mention harder for the recipients to participate in money laundering....
Currently, Taler is in talks with European banks to allow withdrawal into the Taler wallet and also re-deposit from the Taler system back into the traditional banking system.
"I wouldn't want perfect privacy," Stallman says in the interview, "because that would mean it would be impossible to investigate crimes at all. And that's one of the jobs we need the state to do."
Fortunately, Stallman's GNU Project has a better answer: The GNU Project, which Stallman founded, is working on an alternative digital payments system called Taler, which is based on cryptography but is not -- forgive the hair-splitting -- a cryptocurrency. The Taler project's maintainer Christian Grothoff told CoinDesk that the system is, rather, designed for a "post-blockchain" world.... It's based on blind signatures, a cryptographic technique invented by David Chaum, whose DigiCash was among the first attempts at creating secure electronic money. Plus, Taler's attempt to create a digital money that resists surveillance by governments and payments companies aligns it with many cryptocurrency projects.
Yet, Taler does not attempt to bypass centralized authority. Payments are processed by openly centralized "exchanges" rather than peer-to-peer networks of miners because, Grothoff said, such a system "would again enable dangerous, money laundering kind of practice." Indeed, in a break with the anti-government ethos that has tended to characterize bitcoin and some of its peers, Taler's design explicitly tries to block opportunities for tax evasion.... Privacy in the Taler system, then, is limited to users spending their digital cash. They are shielded from surveillance because, Grothoff said, "the exchange, when coins are being redeemed, cannot tell if it was customer A or customer B or customer C who received the coin, because they all look identical from the exchange. Nobody," he added, "exactly knows who has how many tokens." Merchants (or anyone) receiving payments, on the other hand, do so visibly and in the open, making it possible for governments to assess taxes on their income -- not to mention harder for the recipients to participate in money laundering....
Currently, Taler is in talks with European banks to allow withdrawal into the Taler wallet and also re-deposit from the Taler system back into the traditional banking system.
"I wouldn't want perfect privacy," Stallman says in the interview, "because that would mean it would be impossible to investigate crimes at all. And that's one of the jobs we need the state to do."
The GNU Foundation plans to release Taler alongside Hurd 1.0.
#DeleteChrome
The funny thing about them, is they're even WORSE than existing crypto algorithms. We have a hard deadline of 2023 before quantum computers can break pre-quantum algorithms with vary slightly modified versions of Shor's algorithm based on a decade-old linear trend in qubit count. That means we are looking at just a few years to get everyone switched over to post-quantum algorithms. Post quantum algorithms are largely shit because they have at absolute best (smallest) signature sizes of 31KB, which has it's own set of issues (specifically, about 4-8TB/year of signatures on transactions which you can never delete without voiding the integrity of the blockchain, which from a logistical standpoint will lead to centralization.) Post quantum algorithms have another MAJOR failing: there is no such thing as a post-quantum algorithm which supports blind signing. It can't be done in a provably secure manner, there is some (very sketchy) research suggesting lattice based cryptographic algorithms MIGHT get there, but there is no proof those are even secure against traditional computers at the current level of development.
TL;DR: This is FUD, there are no post-quantum blind signature algorithms known at this time, at least systems not relying upon blind signing have some (terrible) methods available to them to patch the system and make it post-quantum safe, something based on blind signatures doesn't even have a roadmap beyond the next 4 years.
Its private, supposedly, but by design it requires a centralized authority and also by design it can easily be controlled and shutdown on the merchant end anytime the powers that be want. So in other words we have a boondoggle johnny come lately with the worst of both worlds neither the governments or the antigovernment side wants or needs. Maybe Stallman fried his brain some years back toking MJ and thats why he's changed from OS pioneer to jumping on and trying to split the difference on every hipster and SJW tech trend these days.
Projects before Bitcoin were shut down; The 'Trustless' feature of Bitcoin is mandatory; A central server is only a 'single point of failure' and must be avoided at all price. Bitcoin will grow using layers. We must work on the 'Bitcoin Standard' now; Inventing the well again is only a waster of time.
No if you actually read the text above you will see that it is exactly the opposite.
If you think Bitcoin as a payment system, you are missing the point. Bitcoin is a store of value; 'Lightning' is the payment system of Bitcoin and 'Lightning' can scale without issue. 'Layers' are the answer.
cease fire stand down.. there are moms & babys in every town..
Wait so Stallman wants privacy, but also wants the State to be able to investigate crimes? That sounds suspiciously like "privacy for my use case and noone else's". Furthermore, being able to send money anonymously STILL allows money laundering: "Yeah I sent that money to my restaurant chain, employees paid in cash. Why no I don't own any banks in the Caribbean, why do you ask?"
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
You are a retard. If you break down and learn to read before you blather, he's against it. Inclusively blurting nonsense about hipsters and SJW's for no reason just makes it obvious, you've got mental problems. Good luck in life.
Learn to read or stfu.
ummm I think you somehow misread that. It is that bitcoin completely LACKS privacy.
that's the spirit...
Where have we heard that before? A breakdown of these flaws they found would be nice.
What's wrong with Monero?
Crypto is a hipster tech trend. Claiming you don't want a CoC and then putting up one (not as bad as Linus but still) which demands gender neutral pronouns is an SJW techtrend. Stallman has done both more and more over recent years.
Did this idiot really just say "fried his brain some years back toking MJ" to top off the rest of his mindless rant? - Wow. I wonder what kind of crazy pills his doctor has him on. What a wacked out old dumbass lol.
side.
The good comes with the bad. Much like the 'think of the children', 'copyright infringement' and 'terrorism' excuses for encryption weakness/backdoors, having anonymous currency without the possibilities of money laundering, forgery, or criminal activity are impossible.
But you know what? None of that matters. Because the wealthy can find a way to skirt all of those every day. The criminals find a way to skirt all of those every day. The only people lack of security and anonymity hurt are those who *OBEY THE LAWS*. And for those people, truly anonymous cash, being able to move freely without their every movement being recorded, and the ability to be secure that their possessions are THEIRS and not controlled from behind the veil by a third party are more important than keeping the criminals, politicians, and other miscreants from finding a different loophole only someone with money, illicit knowledge, political connections, or criminal contacts can leverage.
The protection of the average joe's rights should trump all. But instead we're all trumping outselves by political and legal self-flagellation, while giving the criminals both power and authority while taking it away from ourselves.
"I wouldn't want perfect privacy," Stallman says in the interview, "because that would mean it would be impossible to investigate crimes at all. And that's one of the jobs we need the state to do."
You need the state to define and enforce laws, but can't you hire your own (perfectly) private investigator?
Just go to Germany and see what's going on there regarding privacy. The ridiculousness of "Anti-Terrorism" laws preventing a lot of lawful businesses from doing anything. Go as a foreigner to buy a SIM card, you can't, and as a German citizen, you have to divulge your entire life to them now to get one. It's quite surprising to me considering how powerful privacy lobby is in Germany.
You are missing the point of this. It's about preventing companies like Visa and Mastercaard monitoring all your transactions, and about making sure that the government has to follow legal process to get that information.
In other words it's like cash. Semi-anonymous, but the shops you spend it in can be regulated.
Admitted TFA isn't very good, but come on, SJW nonsense? You could at least try to understand it before throwing in such ridiculous claims.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
There are other alternatives for centralized coins, including the ones that use symmetric crypto only.
It seems as if GNU has been infected with NIH.
Have they heard the good news about Open Source? They can take someone else's code and build on it.
And I've never used it.
Can we get a story on slashdot about it?
The state should have reasonable ways to investigate crimes that involve large amounts of money. Right now a lot of crimes like kidnapping for ransom are effectively impossible to do because the payout can be traced (even with cash, by serial numbers on banknotes). A truly anonymous currency makes them possible.
What is a good use for anonymous currency anyway? Buying drugs and hookers?
parrotcoin?
OMG it's mooning right now and I'm hodl'n onto it for dear life.
You are missing the point of this. It's about preventing companies like Visa and Mastercaard monitoring all your transactions, and about making sure that the government has to follow legal process to get that information.
Have a National Security Letter. We'll take everything please, and kindly remember the part that says you're not allowed to tell anyone.
Seems nobody who's into alternative currencies, whether "blockchain" based or not, understands the principle by which money gets and retains its value, even though it's perfectly simple. No, it's neither by government decree nor by belief, that would be too simple, but then again it's only slightly more complex. It is by the objective trustworthiness of the promise that money invested in the currency area will come back as more money, meaning how reliably the promise is backed by the industry's profitability and growth within the currency area. Any alternative currency needs to be widely established and used in production, commerce and the payment of wages, before it gets such an ability, or the value needs to be fixed to an existing 'real' currency with an institution that can reliably guarantee the exchange into that currency.
> Taler's attempt to create a digital money that resists surveillance by governments and payments companies aligns it with many cryptocurrency projects.
This is the opposite most crypto currencies.
They all use a public ledger, where everyone knows what everyone else is doing.
The exact opposite of privacy and resisting surveillance.
Okay, but how is that worse than cash?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
He probably refers to the part about preventing tax evasion, which by definition requires some deanonymization.
For the receiver, not the sender
Eh, SJW has become shorthand for anything certain types of people do not like.
I see yet again wasting our time with some of the worst navel gazing and pontification. This guy needs to shut up
You expect too much from AC. That information is in the second line of the summary.
No sig today...
Well, now we have it. Unbathed-one himself has now jumped on the crypto currency bandwagon.
Certainly, this is the kiss of death for ShitCoin et al.
Eh, SJW has become shorthand for anything certain types of people do not like.
It was one from the start.
It was one from the start.
No, actually it wasn't, fellow AC.
Back in the day, "SJW" was very limited in scope. There were only a few overly PC people, only a few really radical feminists, and the like. They had a limited range of complaints, and as such the label "SJW" only referred to that really small set of things.
But over time, the things that would rile people up expanded, so what "SJW" covered also expanded.
Before you say "well that's progress", that would be a very naive view of history.
So, Monero/Dash/ZCash/dozens others are not enough according to Stallman and thus he intends to create the 4000th cryptocurrency which will be the "best" among all of them instead of fixing the existing ones which have nodes/users/miners behind them.
That will certainly work out.
Actually, cash makes tax evasion a lot easier than this system. That's why some businesses like cash.
Personally, not being a criminal, I'm with Stallman: privacy to prevent companies from building and selling profiles of customers is good, but privacy for tax evasion is bad and I'm happy for the government to have the ability to round up those bastards. Technically illegal purchases are private under this system, but fortunately when the police raid the criminal merchant they're likely to discover the customers through other means.
This space intentionally left blank
It actually started with "whiteknight" and developed from there on. It used to refer to people promoting doing good deeds simply for earning street cred among peers (nowadays called "virtue signaling").
"What I'd really like is a way to make purchases anonymously from various kinds of stores," so terrorist cells can build bombs and there will be no way for anyone to find them.
"What I'd really like is a way to make purchases anonymously from various kinds of stores," so drug dealers can safely sell on the internet.
"What I'd really like is a way to make purchases anonymously from various kinds of stores," so child molesters can safely buy and sell children and child porn on the internet.
Richard Stallman needs to shut the fuck up.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Cash doesn't keep records.
"Yet, Taler does not attempt to bypass centralized authority. Payments are processed by openly centralized "exchanges" rather than peer-to-peer networks of miners because, Grothoff said, such a system "would again enable dangerous, money laundering kind of practice." "
And this is why it is useless. If it can't be used to do an end run around a fascist government then it can't be used at all.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
When you withdraw cash over a certain amount, the banks are required to notify the authorities as part of anti-trafficking and anti-money laundering efforts. Also, please explain in detail how one can, say, purchase child porn on line with cash and not leave a trail.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Claiming you don't want a CoC and then putting up one (not as bad as Linus but still) which demands gender neutral pronouns
undermines your argument because he didn't. You can read the GNU Kind Communications guidelines at the link in my signature, and you will find that it doesn't demand anything, much less that.
"Maybe try not to be a complete prick" isn't a demand, it's a suggestion. A suggestion you might want to follow.
Crypto is a hipster tech trend
Yeah, it's not a cryptocurrency, even says so in the summary, in fact it's not even a currency. Did you even read past the headline?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
You are missing the point of this. It's about preventing companies like Visa and Mastercaard monitoring all your transactions, and about making sure that the government has to follow legal process to get that information.
It doesn't do either of those things. It will wind up in the hands of a massive payment processor immediately, and they will share the data with the government. The government is supposed to have to follow legal process to sniff your internet traffic and phone calls, but they do it to all of us without that anyway.
In other words it's like cash.
It's nothing like cash, except that it's serialized.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Nah, he's just like everyone else in the end - if he can't exercise some form of control over it, then it's shit and must be replaced by something he can. See: his objection to the BSD licenses that are freer than his GPL.
And Hurd is an alternative to Linux.
When I purchase things anonymously, I use cash. My heroin dealer appreciates it. In fact, my Hit Man ONLY accepts cash. No checks or credit or that funny bitcoin shit. In the world of guns & trafficking, Cash is King.
We have a hard deadline of 2023 before quantum computers can break pre-quantum algorithms
Really? Wow! I'll have to tell my colleagues working on Quantum Computer research that they might as well research something else for a few years since they are not going to make any breakthroughs until 2023. Perhaps you could also tell me the hard deadline for when we are scheduled to discover the nature of Dark Matter so I too can avoid wasting my time researching it before it is due to be found?
We shall name this new crypto-currency after it's creator, Richard Stallman.
Stallman is absolutely right to draw attention to the privacy-stripping nature of crypto-currency, but this is far from the only challenge that this type of model can experience.
As we saw in Bitcoin trading in early 2018, an even greater threat may be speculation. Earlier this year, investors and speculators all "piled in" to Bitcoin, driving up the value of coins as demand far out-stripped supply. Now, less than a year later, the value of Bitcoins is tumbling to about $3,750, roughly 20% of the value it held at the beginning of the year. That's a shocking rate of loss.
It is worth mentioning the "speculation risk" with respect to crypto-currency, because there is nothing that Mr Stallman has said which gives any indication that his GNU Project Alternative would in any way mitigate the risk of speculative trading. An only slightly smaller annoyance than the speculators would have to be the conversion fees charged by the so-called "Exchanges".
As this MSNBC report from last December shows, some exchanges were charging an average of $28 per transaction. There are examples of people being charged $15 to send $100 in value - which is ridiculous.
This is frustrating for many reasons, not least of which is the fact that Bitcoin briefly had the potential to be something that could bring down the banking hegemony on currency conversions: you convert some of your local currency to Bitcoin for next-to-no overhead... you fly to another country... you convert your Bitcoins to local currency for next-to-no overhead. This, had it come to pass, would have allowed Bitcoin to become quickly established in the world and to also force established financial institutions to offer fairly-priced products instead of creaming fat profits off of travellers.
So even though I'm sure that Mr Stallman and his colleagues will have done some excellent work on enhancing the privacy of their alternative crypto-currency, the simple fact remains that privacy is just one of a multi-faceted problem. In fact, it's entirely possible that different exchanges, working in concert, could price this new offering out of the market by demanding even higher transaction fees (on the basis that they are not getting marketing information out of their users).
The entire "marketplace" looks to be increasingly rigged by "establishment middlemen". Sadly, I don't think that there is any way of circumventing that, at least not within the scope proposed here.
How do you spend something without first receiving it? Do you really want a world where governments actively track everything you do from birth to death?
How will it end up in the hands of a payment processor? It's specifically designed to prevent that.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
nt
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
For a guy so very, VERY into privacy, Richard M. Stallman, son of Terry and Maud Stallman, of 325 North Maple Street in Sheffield, * ... sure does like to talk publicly a lot, using his own name.
Does really no one at all besides myself find that odd?
It’s a bit like a scantily-clad, gorgeous, and voluptuous woman going out into the public square and shouting at people to stop paying attention to her and that they’re DEFINITELY not to look at her heaving, ample breasts.
(Pauses a moment to picture this mental image.)
MMMmmmm yeah. Sorry, what was I talking about?
* J/K on all that made-up detail, LOL ... though how funny would it be if ANY part of it were correct? Hehehehe...
Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
It's a kind of virtue signalling, except that most of the people who read it think you are an idiot.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Taler's design explicitly tries to block opportunities for tax evasion
In other words, whatever government has the ability to use this will have advantages over other governments who might try to claim citizens against it. It is intrinsically set up *against* the possibility that we might overthrow our government and replace it with a more democratic one. You might think that things are going swell with Trump/Queen Elizabeth/Merkel/whatever but we have seen how fast governments can go autocratic and you do *not* want to lock in government's ability to surveil and tax *at the payment layer*.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
It only works if you use Hurd ...
There is no need to write a post if you have nothing useful to contribute.
AmiMoJo is SO TRIGGERED right now, you guys...
And this doesn't? You can see received payments. A little bit of forensic accounting can connect the dots. What if undermining the government is exactly the point?
Bitcoin doesn't lack privacy unless you are converting it to some other currency. You at least have anonymous options like conducting business in BTC and cashing out with actual cash. This lacks any privacy at all. What is the point of privacy if you leave it vulnerable to government, the group you most need protection from?
the fat kike wants to jump on the bandwagon and profit off the most insanely profitable open source scheme since ever
More properly it's GNU/Taler.
Wow Stallman is such a fake jackass, as always.
This is a cryptocurrency.
He's doing this specifically to get a slice of that $100+ billion market.
I've wanted to use Bitcoin or similar to go shopping on the DW for something I can't buy in my state.
Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any simple, safe way to turn my $ into Bitcoins.
I'll get into this stuff only when there's a simple, safe way to turn $ into Bitcoins(or ?), IF it's still free from government overview.
Otherwise, I couldn't care less.
Fuck CoC and fuck SJW.
Everyone needs to both fucking man up, and be good to each other.
Putting fucking CoC because worthless SJW autistic aspies got a bug and want to play where they don't even fit naturally, is stupid. All you're doing is propping up artificial things instead of finding and fostering real things. And bringing down all that is real in the process.
FUCK SJW.
There they go again copying obsolete technology, just like their main claim to fame i.e. doing a half-assed incomplete knockoff version of UNIX that some Finish grad student had to finish for them.
n/t
This GNU project has the putrid stench of the US federal government behind it. I also detect the odor of WA state in there somewhere.
Who is this Richard Stallman, and what has he done with our Richard Stallman?
I mean he makes a nuanced argument, balancing privacy with the need for policing, without sounding like he has sold out to either. This is not the Richard Stallman we were looking for!
Good luck with your mental illness, old bitch.
Articles like this (Stallman denunciates project X because it doesn't fit his ideals, promotes alternative Y from the GNU foundation) come up every now and then.
Over the years, I have read several such articles, some of his interviews, and have attended one of his presentations. Something struck me: Richard Stallman is an extremist - in the sense that he doesn't do compromises at all. It's either his way or nothing at all. There is no such thing as "good enough" for him. When is the last time you heard him supporting a software project that isn't endorsed by the GNU foundation or a comparable free software organisation? Note that I mean free software, apolitical open source isn't "good enough".
This means that arguing with Stallman is pointless to a degree, he's not going to change his opinion. You can't meet him half-way, neither will he meet you half-way.
Nevertheless I consider Stallman's opinions worth listening to and thinking about.
The 4th amendment should apply to our banking records. They should be private.
oh fuck off
Because you are a nígger.
No actually true, with some care you can use a pseudonym(wallet address) not tied to your legal identity. What you can't do is partially reveal transactions, if the address is associated with a person once, it no longer provides privacy.
No I made no comment on what I think of his idea, for the record I think it ALSO sucks balls, probably less so than BTC but still awful. Was merely correcting the OP inability to read.
Get a load of this queer. I bet he'd like a loan on his face. LUL
You asking for a friend?
Fucking sicko.
My grievances with traditional money supplies are:
Taler does not appear to address these problems. I don't see the appeal.
He should go eat bits of hit feet again.
me thinks you are not optimistic enough
Lame-o-rama rehash of don't tread on me by RS /. should consider the worthiness of these political opinion pieces by RS and whether or not they deserve /. front page placement.
I prefer gov's to giant American businesses actually.
Do you believe there's any real distinction between them? I've always thought of their relationship being rather seamless. Manus manum lavat or "One hand washes the other."
After nearly a century of corporations' mudslinging PR campaigns against "Big Gubermint" the American public are willing to accept anything that's anti-government & therefore anti-democratic, up to and including unbridled vicious neoliberal capitalism. The problem isn't democratic government, it corporate corruption of democratic government. Democratic reform is the solution, not corporate fascism. Bitcoin et. al. are simply ponzi schemes aimed at people who swallow the corporate anti-government PR hook, line, & sinker.
Its private, supposedly, but by design it requires a centralized authority and also by design it can easily be controlled and shutdown on the merchant end anytime the powers that be want. So in other words we have a boondoggle johnny come lately with the worst of both worlds neither the governments or the antigovernment side wants or needs.
Maybe Stallman fried his brain some years back toking MJ and thats why he's changed from OS pioneer to jumping on and trying to split the difference on every hipster and SJW tech trend these days.
Critical of marijuana and a fan of Shitcoins? Pull the other one you fake fuck. How much money did Putin send you to post this?
If you need to take extreme care 100% of the time IT LACKS FUCKING PRIVACY. One mistake and you can reveal everything about you.