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At an All-Hands Meeting, Uber CEO Said The Company Deserves Some Fault After Its Self-Driving Car Killed a Pedestrian (businessinsider.com)

During an all-hands meeting at Uber earlier this week, CEO Dara Khosrowshahi and the head of the self-driving car unit, Eric Meyhofer, were questioned by employees over the culture at the self-driving unit. An anonymous reader writes: They asked about allegations of infighting and dysfunction in the unit prior to a tragic accident that killed a pedestrian, based on Business Insider's newly published investigation. (The investigation found that engineers were pressured to "tune" the self-driving car for a smoother ride in preparation of a big year-end demonstration of their progress, but that meant not allowing the car to respond to everything it saw, real or not.) What followed was a strange couple of minutes in which the executives told odd stories and quoted wrong statistics leading up to Khosrowshahi admitting, several times, "we have screwed up."

[...] Khosrowshahi showed his support of his senior leader by saying some negative things about Business Insider. And then he said, "we did screw up" and that "we are radically changing how we develop, how we test, etcetera. So we've gone through changes. We have screwed up." Sources tell Business Insider that Khosrowshahi had not been paying much attention to the self-driving car unit in his first year because he was so busy fighting fires with Uber's main business, but that this is changing now. On Tuesday, Khosrowshahi indicated as much saying, "A year forward from all the controversy that we saw last year, we are better, stronger. And I think ATG is going through that same journey," he said.

17 of 122 comments (clear)

  1. OOps we're sorry by makotech222 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We'll do better next time. We promise. Execs should be in prison for murder.

    1. Re:OOps we're sorry by mattyj · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My guess is that their board didn't learn a basic tenet of software development: when a system is malfunctioning, you fix it instead of disabling it.

      Eagerly awaiting the day when there are hundreds of driverless Ubers on the road and some exec's decision to beta test in the field results in a Blues Brothers-esque pile of dead Ubers in the middle of the street.

    2. Re: OOps we're sorry by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Informative

      Bullshit. Long disproven statistic.

      Cars with lane assist and auto brake have lower accident rates on divided highways than humans in all driving. Which has been turned into the lie you repeat.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re: OOps we're sorry by Travis+Mansbridge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They sure do, when the features are enabled that allow them to stop because an obstacle is present. This feature was disabled in Uber's test cars (because false positives cause frequent stoppage - thus the reference in the summary to them tuning to a "smooth ride," i.e. one without these AI-initiated stops), and the human driver was using a mobile app at the time of the incident.

      Rather than do the hard work of improving their AI, they simply disabled obstacle detection for the appearance of progress. This was less of an accident and more of a completely avoidable mistake up the entire chain of responsibility. But why it surprises anyone that Uber, perhaps the most amoral company in the world, behaves this way is beyond me - and Arizona state leadership deserves some of the blame for inviting this company to test these products fully unregulated on its streets, knowing their corporate mentality.

    4. Re:OOps we're sorry by Travis+Mansbridge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Normally killing a person due to incompetence is still manslaughter. But when you're a corporate entity, it's a "journey."

    5. Re: OOps we're sorry by Type44Q · · Score: 2

      Self driving cars already have a significantly lower rate of death/injury per mile than human driven cars.

      To be fair, they mostly have a rate of zero deaths/injuries per mile but it takes a special sort of moron to ignore the obvious reason why.

    6. Re:OOps we're sorry by ClickOnThis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This. This tragic episode was on the level of criminal negligence or manslaughter, but definitely not murder.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    7. Re:OOps we're sorry by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      You realize Uber put out a very misleading video of the conditions at the time?

      Humans (driving prudently) would not have hit her. They would have seen her.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:OOps we're sorry by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Informative

      OK, agree with you it's not murder, but no, a human driver would not have killed the pedestrian. The video that came out shortly after the death has since been revealed to be highly misleading about the conditions that lead to the crash - there was more lighting, the pedestrian's path was clear 6 seconds before the accident, and the speed of the car was such that an emergency brake operation could have kicked in 1.3 seconds before the impact and prevented the accident. 4.7 seconds is plenty of time for a human driver to react.

      (Oddly enough, the Volvo's own automatic emergency brake system, which had been disabled to avoid clashes with Uber's own system, would have prevented the accident according to the data available.)

      It was very bad, and Uber is 100% liable, but it's hard to see how it's murder given it was clearly an accident.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    9. Re: OOps we're sorry by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      WTF?

      The CEO of the leading 'self driving' car company says self driving cars are impossible. On what planet is that FUD?

      Point to the self driving car? One of them? 'Self driving' does not mean 'smart cruise' or 'lane assist'.

      There are NO self driving cars.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    10. Re: OOps we're sorry by Kjella · · Score: 2

      There are no relevant statistics on self-driving cars in the real world. This is because there are NO self-driving cars available in the hands of consumers which self-drive in complete control in all the same conditions (snow, ice, rain, darkness, etc) on all sorts of roads (rural, dirt, highways, freeways, under construction, traffic control devices out or missing, road routing changed without notice, detours, worn out lane markings, areas highly congested with pedestrians and children etc) that humans drive in regularly.

      But you're assuming we can't break down those statistics and create more relevant apples-to-apples comparisons or at least put some bounds on how much that skews the statistics. I'm sure the insurance companies sit on more than enough data to know what the accident rate is on daytime, overcast highway driving in the summer by low risk drivers that are not found during the investigation to be drunk, drugged or anything like that. All you need is a few representative roads with traffic counters/license plate readers to get volume and the rest of the data you get from accidents. Or one of those on board GPS insurance deals.

      I think it's likely that some categories of accidents will become much less common with self-driving cars (esp. those involving drunk drivers piloting the car in question and those that existing collision avoidance, lane keeping, etc would also reduce). On the other hand, I expect some categories of accidents will be more common with self-driving cars - mostly those where a human driver has to make a logical decision based an somewhat unusual circumstances (such as a downed tree or noticing that there is a stop sign but it's been run over or a new traffic control sign appearing warning of a difficult to anticipate transient situation).

      We may not have statistics but we can speculate, for example >70% of the fatal road accidents here in Norway involve head-on collisions or driving off the road. That is to say a car with OCD that always stays in its lane should be pretty good even if it struggles with pedestrians (11%), intersections (8%), lane changes/overtakes (3%) and other misc accidents (4%). There's a lot of data to suggest impaired drivers cause a lot of accidents whether it's intoxication, drugs, sick, tired, old age, inexperience/panic and then there's distracted or reckless driving. Now that in itself doesn't say anything because we don't know how often we use or human mind to get out of accidents, but... I think we fail much more often at the basics than pull some amazing insight out of the hat.

      People drive even when they know they probably shouldn't all the time, I've driven to the point where I almost fell asleep behind the wheel. Not proud of it but honestly it was just luck that my wake-up call wasn't in a ditch. I've driven angry. I've driven stressed. I've driven distraught. I've been so caught up in things that I was barely paying attention to the road. And when you've driven your commute 999 times before you don't expect the curve ball. I've fiddled with the radio or my cell phone. I've been hung over. I've been sick. I've been a newbie behind the wheel, I've seen my parents drive a bit too long. I'm not sure if the computer can beat us at our best, but I'm quite sure we're not at our best quite often. I just don't think we get the opportunity to shine anywhere near as often as we get the opportunity to fail spectacularly.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    11. Re: OOps we're sorry by reanjr · · Score: 2

      You missed several zeros which make it seem like Teslas are way more dangerous than they are. The number is 130 million, not 130 thousand. 2 deaths in 130 million miles is pretty good. 2 deaths in 130 thousand miles is Thunderdome.

    12. Re: OOps we're sorry by swillden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Waymo's director of 'self driving' cars recently said in an interview that 'level 5 self driving cars are impossible.'

      Link: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/21...

      The money quote: 'But L5 is impossible, said Krafcik.'

      You're taking that quote out of context. Read on and he clearly says that self-driving cars *are* going to be doing a lot of fully-automated driving, with no human involvement. The snippet you quoted is merely him trying to reassure the journalist that there will always be some place for human driving, some sorts of specialized driving that computers won't be trained to do. I suppose that makes sense; there is a lot of specialized driving that very few human drivers can do either.

      The article goes on to point out that self-driving cars will initially "operate in designated areas on familiar roads", and then widen those areas, diminishing the need for human driving. This is obvious. It makes perfect sense to start in the most controlled conditions and then gradually widen the scope as experience is gained and problems are solved.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  2. Re:$100M payout and 100M fine should cover it by geekmux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    $100M payout and 100M fine should cover it

    Sorry, but that bullshit isn't good enough anymore. It sure as hell isn't a deterrent. Look at the banking industry.

    Time to start shutting businesses down and looking at jail time for those who prioritize a "smoother ride" over a human life.

  3. Re:$100M payout and 100M fine should cover it by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

    You can't expect it to be perfect

    We don't expect it to be perfect, but Uber was unnecessarily reckless. They intentionally disabled safety checks. It is hard to imagine Waymo doing that. Waymo has WAY more road-miles than Uber, and has had no fatalities, or even injuries. Tesla has killed a few people, but they have WAY WAY more road-miles, and their fatalities were honest errors, not intentionally crippled software.

    I understand why Uber is cutting corners. They are losing money and under pressure from investors, with no obvious path to profitability. They can't raise rates without losing customers to Lyft. They can't cut driver pay, since they are already having trouble recruiting drivers. So self-driving-cars are their only hope, so they needed to show progress before the VCs pulled the plug.

  4. Re:$100M payout and 100M fine should cover it by uncqual · · Score: 2

    Actually, it was carelessness or negligence by two people (the safety driver and the pedestrian).

    It was malfeasance by others (the persons who ordered the safety feature to be shut off/tuned down and the programmers/techs who turned it off /tuned it down and should have known that would be dangerous -- the "{Hitler, TheBoss} told me to do it" doesn't work. That's not to say that a low level tech who may have been told to "Change the setting for Sensitivity to 5" is liable if they had no reasonable way to anticipate that "5" was an unsafe setting.

    --
    Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  5. Re: $100M payout and 100M fine should cover it by reanjr · · Score: 2

    You don't need to shut them down. Just need fines that are more expensive than the money saved from malfeasence. $100 million fine for a business pulling in $2.7 billion in revenue is just ridiculous. That's like me getting a $2k dollar fine for killing someone.