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Bizarre 'Dark Fluid' With Negative Mass Could Dominate the Universe (theconversation.com)

One of the most galling mysteries in physics is that of the dark matter and dark energy. Scientists believe that together, these could account for up to 95 percent of the total mass in the universe. Now, a researcher at the University of Oxford says a new theory could explain all that "dark phenomena." From a report: The two mysterious dark substances can only be inferred from gravitational effects. Dark matter may be an invisible material, but it exerts a gravitational force on surrounding matter that we can measure. Dark energy is a repulsive force that makes the universe expand at an accelerating rate. The two have always been treated as separate phenomena. But my new study, published in Astronomy and Astrophysics, suggests they may both be part of the same strange concept -- a single, unified "dark fluid" of negative masses.

Negative masses are a hypothetical form of matter that would have a type of negative gravity -- repelling all other material around them. Unlike familiar positive mass matter, if a negative mass was pushed, it would accelerate towards you rather than away from you. Negative masses are not a new idea in cosmology. Just like normal matter, negative mass particles would become more spread out as the universe expands -- meaning that their repulsive force would become weaker over time. However, studies have shown that the force driving the accelerating expansion of the universe is relentlessly constant. This inconsistency has previously led researchers to abandon this idea. If a dark fluid exists, it should not thin out over time.

In the new study, I propose a modification to Einstein's theory of general relativity to allow negative masses to not only exist, but to be created continuously. "Matter creation" was already included in an early alternative theory to the Big Bang, known as the Steady State model. The main assumption was that (positive mass) matter was continuously created to replenish material as the universe expands. We now know from observational evidence that this is incorrect. However, that doesn't mean that negative mass matter can't be continuously created. I show that this assumed dark fluid is never spread too thinly. Instead it behaves exactly like dark energy.

36 of 166 comments (clear)

  1. I'm so terribly sorry about that,.. by AbRASiON · · Score: 3, Funny

    I had the lamb vindaloo for lunch.

  2. "Doc" Smith was right... by prhodes · · Score: 3, Funny

    I want my negasphere!

    1. Re:"Doc" Smith was right... by Drishmung · · Score: 2

      Preferably without Gharlane though.

      --
      Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
  3. Grasping at Straws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is it just me or has the physics community been grasping at straws lately?

    1. Re:Grasping at Straws by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You mean grasping at Strings

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    2. Re:Grasping at Straws by TeknoHog · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes. I majored in physics, and I find this theory utterly repulsive.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    3. Re:Grasping at Straws by lgw · · Score: 4, Informative

      Is it just me or has the physics community been grasping at straws lately?

      Certainly TFS is, or string theory for that matter. Dark matter and dark energy are a bit different: they're observed phenomena that we can't explain. Gotta call them something. It's only been a few years since is was confirmed that dark matter was even "mater" (not modified gravity or somesuch), and it's still just guesswork that dark energy is "energy" in te way we currently understand it.

      Minor quibble, but I cringe when stories talk about energy having mass. While you can express that mathematically and be fine, it doesn't match the meaning of those words in common usage. It's better to say that mass is a particular kind of energy than to say that e.g. a magnetic field "has mass" or that a spring has more mass when compressed. Being cryptic for the sake of being cryptic doesn't belong in science.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:Grasping at Straws by Sique · · Score: 5, Interesting

      At the edge of knowledge, you will always find strange concepts. That is nothing new. It never was different. Wave-particle-dualism, morphing spacetime, magnetism, electricity and light being the same thing -- all of those have been fringe ideas at first (or as Max Planck once put it: acts of desperation). Only in hindsight, when they are long established in the scientific community, we consider them matters of course.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    5. Re:Grasping at Straws by loonycyborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Entire gravity is one big phenomenon that we can't explain. Negative mass fluid sounds like the same as Luminiferous Aether, something we made up on analogy with our lower level phenomena. Occam's razor suggests that it's better to expect an explanation for metric expansion of space in future improved versions of existing theories. Perhaps quantization of gravity will help?

    6. Re:Grasping at Straws by slinches · · Score: 2

      The obvious gap here is how the "dark fluid" is continuously created. Even if the theory fits all cosmological observations, that would still need to be explained.

      The only thing I can think of is that it would accumulate like the scum on a sea quantum foam.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    7. Re:Grasping at Straws by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      Occam's razor suggests that it's better to expect an explanation for metric expansion of space in future improved versions of existing theories.

      "inflation" theories have been all the rage for a decade (strange overlap between cosmology and QM). A big percentage of dark energy theories are just new versions of inflation theories. But "inflation" is not much better understood than dark energy, so I'm not sure that helps much. The cosmology of the first tiny fraction of a second of the universe is going to be stuck without evidence until someone invents a neutrino observatory.

      Heck, it's not even certain dark energy is a change in the metric (though it's pretty likely), all we know for sure is that distances are increasing, at a possibly accelerating rate. Dark energy as a sort of negative pressure (tension) in space is I think the leading idea, but that's not really explaining anything interesting, just restating the problem in terms of general relativity.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    8. Re:Grasping at Straws by 14erCleaner · · Score: 2

      After all, straws are evil.

      --
      Have you read my blog lately?
    9. Re:Grasping at Straws by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

      The cosmology of the first tiny fraction of a second of the universe is going to be stuck without evidence until someone invents a neutrino observatory.

      Like this one?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    10. Re:Grasping at Straws by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2

      Wave-particle-dualism, morphing spacetime, magnetism, electricity and light being the same thing -- all of those have been fringe ideas at first (or as Max Planck once put it: acts of desperation).

      And wave-particle dualism still sounds hinky. There has to be a better explanation for the double slit experiment. Wave-particle dualism sounds like a bad analogy for whatever is really happening.

      And so we have this argument.

    11. Re:Grasping at Straws by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      That's what science is. You grasp at straws to explain the unexplained, until you find the right straw.

    12. Re:Grasping at Straws by lgw · · Score: 2

      That's a detector, not an observatory, despite the jumped-up name. To measure the CNBR, we'd need to be able to measure a large sample of neutrinos coming from an arbitrary direction with a controlled aperture. What we can measure now is the light cone of Cherenkov radiation from the decay products of neutrinos interacting with stuff, and the knowledge that neutrinos passing through the Earth behave slightly differently than those that don't.

      It's the difference between a telescope, and measuring the current from a solar panel on your roof. Calling the latter "an observatory" is a bit of a reach, don't you think?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    13. Re:Grasping at Straws by techno-vampire · · Score: 2

      This dark fluid concept is clearly not in the same class. It was literally made up just to make the numbers add up and isn't based on any different claims or observations or evidence than we already had.

      Yes. Exactly like the Luminiferous Aether was made up, and exactly like neutrinos were made up to make the numbers come out right. The only difference, of course, being that neutrinos actually exist. This "dark fluid" may exist, but I'm not planning to put any belief into it until there's some actual evidence to support it.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
  4. Nope by krray · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just NOPE. Dark fluid ... being magically replenished ... wrong answer to a rather complex question.

    They need to explore / understand the fabric of space *itself*. It is stretchable. It can contract. It is also, itself, simply coming apart. If you try to measure this "coming apart" the problem (that I have) is that the measuring instrument itself is coming apart (expanding).

    One day the cohesion of space itself will come to a breaking point (the end).

    1. Re:Nope by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Why is dark fluid being "magically" replenished any less plausible than dark energy being magically replenished?

      And what evidence do you have that space itself is coming apart, much less the things within it? I've never heard of any model that postulates such a thing.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Nope by rkordmaa · · Score: 2

      You can't really claim right or wrong before you put an idea to the test. But I do claim that this shameless self plug is not newsworthy until the author does so and gets some sort of results. Crackpot physics hypotheses are dime a dozen, some of them even mathematically and logically appealing, doesn't mean they in any useful way describe reality. Worth nothing until you test them.

  5. Speaking of dark matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Am I alone in Iâ(TM)m getting tired of looking at comments because I donâ(TM)t want to sift through pages of creamer/apk/nazi/racist posts.

    It wouldnâ(TM)t be so bad if these were original. Today it really looks like a few bits running and spamming every post.

    I miss hot grits, Natalie Portman, Beowulf clusters of thingiemabobs and even the goatse man himself. Well, I donâ(TM)t miss him that much.

    How did we go from meme to vile?

    1. Re:Speaking of dark matter by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Anonymous troll posts have existed on Slashdot for as long as I've been reading, but the sheer volume of them started climbing dramatically a few years ago.

      Back in the day, I used to read with my threshold at 0 because you would see a fair number of thoughtful comments which were anonymously posted for whatever reason - I was willing to tolerate the crap posts in order to see the good ones. But the sheer number of garbage posts we see nowadays drove me to change my mind - nowadays my "one line comment threshold is set to 1. I know I'm missing some things which probably deserve consideration, but I am unwilling to slog through the cesspool.

      --
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  6. Gaming the system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Step 1: Write a peer reviewed article challenging accepted cosmology. Leave open the option that it may be nonsense, so no one can say you're a total crackpot and can pass peer review.
                          Bonus step: resuscitate a long dead competitive cosmology model.
    Step 2: Write an opinion piece to generate publicity and buzz for your crazy theoryle (helpful if on Slashdot).
    Step 3: Sit back and watch the refutations publish over and over, thus generating citations for your article and increasing your H-Index.
    Step 4: Leverage H-Index to qualify for further grant awards, thus pushing up your value to the University and increasing your salary. Profit!

    My theory is debunked only if H-Index isn't the major factor in grant awards they way it is in the US; not sure about the UK. But honestly, this strikes me as being written because bad publicity is better than no publicity.

  7. The answer is simple by plague911 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While all the material we see in our universe is due to one big bang, my theory is that the larger universe of truly far away objects is the result of a collection of as many big bangs as there are stars. These big bangs are far enough away that they are unobservable (with current tech) and distributed in such a way that our observable material is pulled apart by them.

    This has the benefit of explaining why our universe is accelerating outwards, and gets away with the fools assumption that the big bang is the one thing in the universe that is unique (hit anything that happens can happen over and over again. Additionally we have no need for some fancy jumping though hoops to explain why we cant see some dark matter that would have to comprise the vast majority of our IMMIDATE surroundings (on a astrophysics scale)

    There it is, give me my Nobel prize. That darn Hawking stole my other one for his obvious theory that black holes decay (nothing lives forever)

    1. Re:The answer is simple by TeknoHog · · Score: 2

      Quoting one of our most famous physicists:

      I am interested in the backreaction conjecture, according to which structure formation would lead to the observed larger expansion rate and longer distances without the need for dark energy or modified gravity.

      Not quite your multi-big-bang theory but similar elements wrt dark matter/energy. And something that's being studied by professional physicists around the world.

      I'm not familiar with the multi-big-bang theories (I've only seen some headlines) but I have some understanding of the classical idea. Basically, we're inside the ongoing big bang, and it looks like a black hole to the outside. There are probably a lot more out there (see this book for one fun idea) but they would be fundamentally out of our reach.

      (I have a master's degree in physics and I did study proper General Relativity, but I haven't had much of a research career, at least not in cosmology.)

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  8. Good right up to to the last part by petes_PoV · · Score: 2

    However, that doesn't mean that negative mass matter can't be continuously created

    and that's were I got lost. I fail to see how a theory can be dependent on something so fundamental, yet fail to account for it.

    There is also the question of how a negative mass fluid would react with other n/mass fluid particles around it. If positive masses attract each other, and a positive-negative mass interaction results in repulsion, how would two negative-mass particles interact with each other?

    --
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    1. Re:Good right up to to the last part by painandgreed · · Score: 4, Informative

      There is also the question of how a negative mass fluid would react with other n/mass fluid particles around it. If positive masses attract each other, and a positive-negative mass interaction results in repulsion, how would two negative-mass particles interact with each other?

      If you did the math or read the original paper, you'd know that positive masses attract, positive-negative masses accelerate in the same direction, and negative masses repulse.

  9. Physicists believe in negative mass.... by little1973 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    because math allows it. But not everything is real what math allows. Just look at the epic failure of SUSY or read "Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray" from theoretical physicist Sabine Hossenfelder.

    "However, studies have shown that the force driving the accelerating expansion of the universe is relentlessly constant."

    And there are several studies which claim that the accelerating expansion of the Universe is an illusion. I think it would be simpler(?) to explain the galactic rotation problem and/or the Bullet Cluster without dark matter with a model. And if that model also says something about the expansion of the Universe which matches the observations that would be an extra. But no model should be built upon solely on the accelerating expansion of the Universe.

    "It therefore appears that a simple minus sign may solve one of the longest standing problems in physics."

    I have read a study which claimed that the bending of light around a galaxy was consistent with the velocity of the stars around the galaxy. That means space-time is really curved with the right amount since there cannot be any repulsive force which bends light.

    A precise extragalactic test of General Relativity
    http://science.sciencemag.org/...

    --
    Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
    1. Re:Physicists believe in negative mass.... by painandgreed · · Score: 3, Interesting

      because math allows it. But not everything is real what math allows. Just look at the epic failure of SUSY or read "Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray" from theoretical physicist Sabine Hossenfelder.

      True, but you can also look at anti-matter which was shown to exist mathematically but dismissed, only to be found later. I've skimmed over the original paper and it seems pretty good. The author admits that it is just a "toy model" based on the assumption that negative matter exists, but that several known constants can be derived from that model and several observations explained. They go on to list more than a half dozen experimental tests for the same model. Even if just a gedanken experiment that will later prove to be false, it seems they have done better than any of the MOND people with their theories or any of the string theorist people for that matter.

    2. Re:Physicists believe in negative mass.... by gtall · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hossenfelder's book is good, Lee Smolin's are better. After reading his first, I found hers to be repeating the same argument except less professionally. And she didn't even have the courage to site him seeing as his arguments predate hers by years, although at the end she does mention Lee couldn't talk her out of writing the book. My guess is he felt it would be bad for her career seeing as she doesn't have nearly the physics chops he has.

  10. Cool by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

    I can't wait to get a hold of some of this stuff. Just think of all of the applications. I'm going to compress it, remove the wheels from my kids skateboard and attach it to the bottom to make the first real hover-board. It should make jet packs a reality too. We shouldn't need as much thrust since it will only be needed for directional control. And just think of the applications for cars. using it to repel some of the mass away from the road will make the car more fuel efficient. And if traction is lost, you can simply pump the liquid to the top of the car to regain traction. I feel like it's the 1950's all over again. Nuclear powered vacuum cleaners, robot butlers, weather control and glass dome houses are coming. I'm sure this will make fusion viable in just 20 years too.

  11. Hey, I Needed Negative Mass for my Alcubierre... by Ken+McE · · Score: 4, Informative

    There is a Mexican mathematician by the name of Miguel Alcubierre who came out with description of a theoretical method of propelling a solid object in space at extremely high speeds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    His theory pencils out as internally consistent, but when you start to match it up the the observable universe, you get into things that we didn't think actually existed - like a requirement for a material with negative mass.

    Fellow Slashdotters, I need a few hundred liters of this stuff for my DIY Alcubierre drive. Anybody got any advice on how I can collect a material that starts to run away faster and faster as I get closer and closer to it?

    TIA!

  12. Re:Hey, I Needed Negative Mass for my Alcubierre.. by G00F · · Score: 2

    you mean get in front of it and have someone with more mass than you chase it towards you.

    --
    The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
  13. Re:Hey, I Needed Negative Mass for my Alcubierre.. by balbeir · · Score: 4, Funny

    Anybody got any advice on how I can collect a material that starts to run away faster and faster as I get closer and closer to it?

    TIA!

    It's called a woman

  14. Prior research by manu0601 · · Score: 2

    There is this retired cosmologist called Jean-Pierre Petit, who has been pushing such a model for years, with a few papers published in peer reviewed journals. His videos are very interesting for an introduction to cosmology. Some were translated in english.

  15. More likely by Sqreater · · Score: 2

    It is more likely something simple, like matter and space being the same thing with one being able to convert into the other. Thus, with matter turning into its space equivalent, the farther out you look the more volume of included matter turning into space you have and so an acceleration away from the viewer. I have an intuitive feeling that space and matter equivalence explains a lot in Relativity and QM. 50 years?

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.