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Google Training Document Reveals How Temps, Vendors, and Contractors Are Treated (theguardian.com)
"An internal Google training document exposed by The Guardian reveals how the company instructs employees on how to treat temps, vendors, and contractors (TVCs)," writes Slashdot reader Garabito. "This includes: 'not to reward certain workers with perks like T-shirts, invite them to all-hands meetings, or allow them to engage in professional development training.'" From the report: "Working with TVCs and Googlers is different," the training documentation, titled the The ABCs of TVCs, explains. "Our policies exist because TVC working arrangements can carry significant risks." The risks Google appears to be most concerned about include standard insider threats, like leaks of proprietary information, but also -- and especially -- the risk of being found to be a joint employer, a legal designation which could be exceedingly costly for Google in terms of benefits.
Google's treatment of TVCs has come under increased scrutiny by the company's full-time employees (FTEs) amid a nascent labor movement at the company, which has seen workers speak out about both their own working conditions and the morality of the work they perform. American companies have long turned to temps and subcontractors to plug holes and perform specialized tasks, but Google achieved a dubious distinction this year when Bloomberg reported that in early 2018, the company did not directly employ a majority of its own workforce. According to a current employee with access to the figures, of approximately 170,000 people around the world who now work at Google, 50.05% are FTEs. The rest, 49.95%, are TVCs. The report notes that "the two-tier system has complicated labor activism at Google." On November 1st, after 20,000 workers joined a global walkout, "the company quickly gave in to one of the protesters' demands by ending forced arbitration in cases of sexual harassment -- but only for FTEs."
Google's treatment of TVCs has come under increased scrutiny by the company's full-time employees (FTEs) amid a nascent labor movement at the company, which has seen workers speak out about both their own working conditions and the morality of the work they perform. American companies have long turned to temps and subcontractors to plug holes and perform specialized tasks, but Google achieved a dubious distinction this year when Bloomberg reported that in early 2018, the company did not directly employ a majority of its own workforce. According to a current employee with access to the figures, of approximately 170,000 people around the world who now work at Google, 50.05% are FTEs. The rest, 49.95%, are TVCs. The report notes that "the two-tier system has complicated labor activism at Google." On November 1st, after 20,000 workers joined a global walkout, "the company quickly gave in to one of the protesters' demands by ending forced arbitration in cases of sexual harassment -- but only for FTEs."
Badly.
#DeleteChrome
you racist pig! you should be in prison. you should get no trial for this hate. you should go to prison for life no trial whenever anyone says this level of hate and racism. and all hate and racism comments should be deleted from everywhere online all the way to usenet! you racist pig you will pay. and we need to shut down anonymous and free speech now. free speech does not include hate speech!
I hate google far more than even the average slashdot reader, but I can't fault a company for following the law.
I hope you're not serious, because free speech does include hate speech. If free speech included only the speech you agree with, it wouldn't be free speech. If you are serious, I can only conclude that you have a very limited education or you're what you claim others to be.
1) The two numbers add up to 100%. So, there's presumably no other category that isn't mentioned.
2) The first number is greater than the second.
How then is that *not* a majority, albeit a slight one?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Sounds like other tech companies treat there contract workers.. "CW".
I.E Vizcaino v. Microsoft
Dude, the post you replied to, and the post it replied to, were obviously from the same troll. Who you fed.
Microsoft got into hot water for abusing temps years ago. Apparently they didn't punish Microsoft hard enough to send a message to other similar orgs.
Table-ized A.I.
They used to be Temps, Interns and Contractors (TICs) but that had an obvious negative sound and it was less well know. It was mostly used to poke fun of people (usually friends but not always) and was only a few docs. It was changed to (a) not sound so bad and (b) separate interns from The Others because interns were thought to have actual value. I think the terminology changed some time around 2005 or 2006. Around the same time, a special group of temps had their badges changed to be brown (they became "Brown Badgers" in all conversation) and weren't allowed on the main campus. There was an incident with a chef and one of these folks hoarding food to take home.
Google has never cared about non engineering staff. (There are expectations, yes.) After Wayne Rosing departed, those feelings became more pronounced. This is who they have always been but now there are large enough masses of unhappy people to do something noticeable. (This is far from the first time but previously these things stayed inside and were handled differently.)
They are not wrong though.
This is done so that Google doesn't fall into the trap that Microsoft did in the 80's which forced the IRS to develop a set of rules and draw a line on the separation that must be maintained legally to be defined as an independent contractor. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined
Author never worked for a large company... or is just trying to stir-up negativity among people who never have.
If you've ever worked for a large company, you would have seen a presentation of "how to treat contractors (etc)" around orientation time, and probably once a year after that. This is normal for a US-based company - there's nothing unusual or strange about Google having such a presentation, and there's also nothing unusual about the stipulations therein.
(Yes, these companies are perhaps not actually "US-based" in terms of tax jurisdictions but you know what I mean.)
Now whether or not having a large number of contractors is "okay" is a different matter. You can debate all you want of whether there's some moral, legal, patriotic, or other issue with the practice of contract work at large companies. But in discussing that in this Slashdot thread, you have to at least acknowledge that Google is no different than many other large US-headquartered companies. Google's just taking advantage of a system that has been in place for decades. Let's not let this article make us think otherwise.
I work at a public university in the US. I've been both a permanent and, later, a temporary employee. I've seen the same type of thing, where my employer treats permanent and temporary employees very differently, even when the job duties are the same. Temporary employees don't get any paid holidays, so they're required to use vacation leave or be unpaid. An arbitrary decision was made to close the university for the national day of mourning last week on Wednesday. For permanent employees, it was treated like a permanent holiday. For me, I had to burn vacation leave. The university goes to some length to limit the benefits that can be paid to temporary employees, not unlike what Google is doing here.
It's not like temporary employees don't work as hard as permanent employees. The university also has a policy that temporary employees can be terminated immediately for any reason or, presumably, no reason at all. This means that when my boss engages in some very unprofessional behavior, reporting it carries the risk that I could be terminated because I spoke up. It doesn't matter that I'd be right that his behavior is unreasonable, I could be terminated for reporting it. This opens the door to a lot of abuses and, yes, I've seen them, and been on the receiving end of some of this unprofessional behavior.
The biggest thing #metoo got wrong is being just about taking down powerful men who abused their position to harass women. Any time there's a massive power differential, where subordinates don't feel they can speak up without retaliation, those abuses will happen. I've seen it happen to others, including graduate students threatened with having their visas revoked if they didn't work well in excess of 40 hours per week. I've seen faculty who frequently were nasty to female graduate students working for them, who often left meetings crying because of how nasty their advisor was. I've seen outright racism tolerated and the department refuse to do a thing.
Why am I still there? I'm working on leaving, and trying to make sure I land in a good situation next time.
because they can always dangle the threat of turning you into a temp when you get too uppity. Crap like this is why workers Unionized and why companies spend a small fortune demonizing Unions. You can't negotiate with mega companies on your own unless you're one of the top 1% of math geniuses. And let's be real here, if you're spending your time reading posts on /. you're probably not...
But damn, if IT folks aren't the most stuck up I've ever met. I think it comes from talking to people who can barely turn on a computer all day. It gives us a big head.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
The guy who designed the Ryzen platform for AMD also does cpu work for apple and intel. Do you think AMD, apple and intel wouldnt have told their own employees there is stuff they cant tell him either? This is standard procedure in ANY company that some people cant be told stuff. This isnt just towards temps and contractors but also within the permanent employees too. Do you think management tells the ground floor people everything? Do you think each department tells the other deparments everything too?
Lookup co-employment lawsuits and you'll understand the thinking on this stuff.
So Google is just like every large company on the planet? Who would have thought it.
you sweet summer child. GNAA shitposts go back nearly 18 years at this point.
As long as there is compliance with the labour laws. Anything above is moral policing. And the thing about moral is - there are too many standards.
Why would anyone want to offer career development advices or perks to "vendors" and "contractors"? Their primary employer is either themselves or another company. There's absolutely no point spending on them resources designed for internal growth.
OMG! Google has hit peak Microsoft! Lol!
I don't know why that would help you negotiate. Negotiation involves understanding your value and having the confidence to ask for it. Confidence is a personal trait unconnected to math ability. And knowing your value is hard for almost everyone.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
The united states is one of the few has no regulations requiring equal treatment of contractors, and temporary employees. See this handy chart for who does and does not:
https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/temps-around-the-world
No wonder they ditched the 'Don't Be Evil' thing - at least, they don't look quite as hypocritical. You Google people apparently can't wait to become as despicable as Microsoft.
because they can always dangle the threat of turning you into a temp when you get too uppity. Crap like this is why workers Unionized and why companies spend a small fortune demonizing Unions.
You need to be choosier on who you work for. I used to work in a union environment and it was a nightmare. Office politics out the wazoo. I still have friends there and all they talk about is how a third of their coworkers are incompetent and un-fireable, and how it's generally impossible to get anything fix or improved. The people who are lousy at their job get promoted so competent people can fill in the positions that actually do work.
I now work for a medium-sized IT company and, basically, have complete control over how I do my job. Everyone helps each other. If I need any additional resources I get them. I can work from home when I want to, unless there are meetings, which are rare. There are zero office politics, nobody is gunning for anyone else's job. Best of all, my boss, his boss, and HIS boss are all ex-programmers and IT guys. I can walk into any of their offices with any kind of problem and they'll try to get it fixed.
I'm sure such an environment could exist under unions, but I think unionization stems from a bad work environment to begin with. It certainly doesn't seem to help.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
FTE get free healthcare, free masters degrees, vacations, sick days, whatever they want...the part time staff which does the actual day to day work get an hourly wage and nothing else. Then the really sad sacks are the temp contractors they hire to do janitorial work, who invariable do not speak a word of English and are of dubious immigration status.
And fools still swallow the bare hook, time and time again. Just because it's always been a troll doesn't make it less a troll.
I remember stories: 1) About unions during the 1970s complaining when some employees got preferential treatment; 2) PHBs employing contractors then spending corporate money to up-skill them. (Skills those ex-employees can provide to their next employer, most likely, the competition.)
There is no reason why unions should make people unfireable, and in most of the Western world it does not. One third incompetent sounds unlikely, though. Office politics... that happens almost everywhere, unions or not, because it is a function of people.
I worked at IBM. Almost the same policies there. What I had heard was that at one time IBM treated contractors more like regular employees, but then some of the contractors sued. Those contractors claimed that since they were being treated the same as regular employees, then they should receive benefits like regular employees.
Also, IBM used to report the number of employees they had in the US. But for the past several years, as I saw US jobs being moved overseas, IBM stopped reporting how many US employees they hire.
I would be surprised if any tech company did not treat contractors as second-class employees.
Save the blatant hypocrisy of a company who purports to be all woke and shit, but is doing historically-company like things.
Paraphrasing Ghandi, Googles think, say and do are not aligned.
I can't fault a company for following the law.
You can fault them for taking what are essentially regular full-time positions and engaging in hand-waving to avoid the obligations of employing them.
Some fraction of those workers are actually engaged in short-term contracted work; some fraction desire to be contractors rather than regular full-time employees. Most, however, are just working as contractors because it was the job they could get.
I work as an independent IT contractor in the UK and I would never want to be part of the payroll at the companies that I work for.
Being off the payroll means I get far more flexibility in the hours and days I work, which gives me a much better life/work balance and the time to follow my other interests. In a normal year I work around 180 days.
I have also escaped corporate politics and the bullshit that goes with it.
So please donâ(TM)t feel sorry for me, I donâ(TM)t want any wage slave t-shirt and having less meetings in my life is a positive thing
I worked somewhere like that ... for three months.
They had a gym/workout center ... in the basement of the building where most of us IT contractors were. I was shown it on my welcome tour, but told that I couldn't use it.
A department was really happy with what I did for them (with their website) so they invited me to a department picnic ... then their secretary called me back sheepishly to un-invite me; said she that wasn't allowed to invite me after all because I was a contractor.
I left in three months because the commute sucked, but the silly and frankly childish stuff like that didn't hurt when making the decision to leave.
"Every leap of civilization was built off the back of a disposable workforce. We lost our stomach for slaves. Unless... engineered. And I can only make so many." - Niander Wallace
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
"not to reward certain workers with perks like T-shirts, invite them to all-hands meetings, or allow them to engage in professional development training."
A) Working for a large contracting firm on a government agency contract - includes all of the above
B) Having also been a sub-contractor for said contracting firm, when such - included all of the above
PS - I work for one of the largest IT contractors in the world, which was formerly a part of one of the largest companies in the world, on a project for one of the largest government agencies in the world.
Yeah, Just hopped back on slashdot after a long hiatus followed by a short hiatus, I am glad to see some things never change,
It's hard to have confidence in negotiating a better wage or benefits when your job title is "Temporary Worker" and you know if you're "let go" (not "fired"), it'll possibly be exceptionally hard to get your foot in the door anywhere else.
Temp is short for temperamental - which is why they can't get full time employment.
"It's expensive, stupid, last only seconds - but makes your mouth hurt for days - it's BEE IN A BALLOON" - Kibo 3/1/95
I worked at a large company that make networking equipment. I was a "contractor" for way to many years. When a permanent position came up, I was allowed to "interview" for it. I was told that I was not smart enough to work there (after taking the initiative to fix there completely broken test automation system).
I was gone by the next week, but I still kick myself for waiting around so long on continued promises of a permanent position. Particularly galling was the senior engineer's snide remarks that contractors weren't "loyal". WTF? I work for you for years without vacation or health benefits, and you want to decry my "loyalty".
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
There is no reason why unions should make people unfireable,
In the union situation I was involved with, you weren't promoted based on ability. You were promoted based on how long you've been there, and, more importantly, who you suck up to. Your career path was entirely dependent on the union reps liking you. There were shenanigans you wouldn't believe.
One manager was sleeping around with her subordinates. Her uncle was the union rep (which is how it was theorized she got her job in the first place as she didn't really know what she was doing.) When the *clear* violation of work rules was discovered, her punishment was having to fill out a form and a reprimand was filed in her record that was expunged after a year.
A year later, another, less well-connected, union employee was fired for going on a date with a co-worker. They weren't even in the same department, and the complaint was filed by a third party manager who just happened to not like that employee. The fired employee's position was then filled by a friend of themanager whom filed the complaint.
A friend of a union rep got himself fired for outright stealing from the organization. It was so egregious the union couldn't really help keep his job, as police reports were involved and couldn't really be covered up. However, he managed to get re-hired a year later in a different department at a higher pay grade than before.
I could go on and on with stories like this. A friend of a union rep managed to I'm not saying the union is the cause of this utter nonsense, but it certainly is an enabler.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
...Google just wants to ensure that their employees don't cause contractors to be reclassified as Full-Time Employees by the IRS. This is a very common issue and is of particular focus for the IRS currently. If you've paid someone as a contractor/1099 and the IRS audits your payroll taxes, Google would owe the "unpaid" payroll taxes (7.5%) plus penalties. Here is information about employee classification: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/u... In addition to the items listed, thing like including them in all company meetings, giving bonuses, giving direct/day-to-day instruction are all things that companies have to do in order to avoid this issue. The penalty is assessed against one year of the person's wages if they're reclassified. This helps limit the damage as, even if a contractor has worked for 20 years at a company that should have been treating them as an FTE, they'll only assess back payroll taxes and penalties on that one year. All that said, I'm not saying I agree with what Google is doing - they could certainly afford to hire FTEs - but this strikes me as good policy given the regulatory environment around this issue.
narcissistic much? this isn't about you, its about the people working at google doing jobs that would be considered full time employees anywhere else, not just an IT contractor. This is also about a company that has as many or more contractors than full time employees. There is a big difference between someone with a specialized skill who has bargaining power and people working as "contract" employees who would otherwise be considered full time employees. The difference is that the contract employees that they are talking about dont have the bargaining power that you have nor do they have the ability to work for multiple employers like you do. For them that is there only job, its 9 to 5 and the only difference is that google pays a staffing agency more than they are paying the employee so that google doesn't need to take on the liability of benefits for those people. The main difference is that the TVC's keep at it is the hope that they can be first in line for a FTE position when it opens up. Google doesn't want your kind of contractor, for the money that they pay you, they can pay 2 guys to be on site 60 hours a week who are going to work them selves to the bone trying top become a FTE. From googles standpoint, the idea is that they hope that the 2 guys combined have more knowledge and skill than you and overall its a win for them.
Why does free speech include hate speech? Does all speech have to be allowed without consequence to have free speech? If that is true then does freedom mean freedom to do anything you want without consequence? If it does then surely no one who lives in a country where there are laws they aren't free?
Saying that any form of freedom requires absolutely no restriction although perhaps true in a very literal interpretation isn't actually very helpful in practical situations.
The blurb even spells it out: contractors and others don't get full benefits of employment, any more than any joe on the street would, not being full employees.
What's the issue?
I manage 30+ of what the article calls "TVCs"
Why on earth do you manage 30+ TVCs? Do you manage 30+ employees? If not, why not? TVCs are meant to fill temporary holes. It certainly sounds like your company (assuming you're only managing 30+ TVCs which I find likely) is dodging various labor laws and the costs and obligations associated with FTEs. Which merely implies that the laws and regulations aren't properly set up to promote employment.
This isn't odd at all, and "temporary" is a relative term. I used to work for one of the largest US banks. I managed testing teams, and at one time had more than 30 contractors that made up bout 90% of my team. That was the way it worked there. At one point, there were contractors that had been there 5+ years, then the rules changed. You got 2 years, then you could come back after 6 months off. At least how it worked for me, I was in a testing organization and we worked on lots of different projects. If a project came along and needed testing done, I had to be able to spin up a team of 5-10 people within a couple of weeks. Hiring contractors or using some of the big contracting houses (on/off/near shore) was what we did. When there were budget cuts, usually once or twice a year, contractors were the first to go. Although if they were with one of the contracting places, they usually just went to another project in the bank or sat on the bench until a new spot opened up. If you had someone you wanted to bring on full time, it was very hard to do because that is how their company kept their value at the bank.
It was a model that worked reasonably well, but was a lot of work to manage. I had a core team of employees and as long as there was funding available from the project, I could always spin up teams to do the work.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
People like to think that we don't have a 'caste' system in the United States like some countries do, but when it comes to working, we do, as you can see here.
I've worked for Intel as a green badge. Never done it? I'll tell you what it's like: between the parasite staffing companies (or pimps, if you prefer), and the corporation (or 'John', if you prefer), as much isolation and barriers as possible are put between the blue badges and us. In some cases only another green badge 'supervisor' (or Uncle Tom, or mid-level pimp, if you prefer) commicates with the rest of us, relaying our work orders to us. We're excluded from many things. In some cases we're told we have to park in places far away from the buildings, because the good parking is reserved for the blue badges. Been working as a green badge for 10 years without a pay increase? Barely surviving, because everything gets more expensive over time? Tough shit, nobody is interested in seeing that you prosper, they could care less if you're living paycheck to paycheck, you don't like it you're told "You can always quit and find another job", while they wear a mocking expression on their faces. You get miserable because of this? You complain? All it takes is a phone call, and you're *fired*, and you have no recourse. To be fair, many of the blue badge employees don't even realize how shitty you're being treated. If you're even allowed to fraternize with them, say when they want to go to get coffee, some of them are shocked that you have to *pay* for the coffee, and will express how stupid that is. Being on the other side of the isolation and obfuscation, many are not aware of how you're being treated, or that the 'policies' are designed to prevent you from getting ahead, and prevent you from ever being hired as a direct, blue-badge employee. It's practically slavery.
I've had real jobs before, and this whole arrangement makes me feel dirty, feel like I'm being taken advantage of, being used like a toilet, and I resent it. I'm old enough to remember that things didn't used to work this way, people used to get real jobs with companies and the companies would make an actual investment in them, value them, work as part of a partnership with them to give them an incentive to stick around and grow with the company. We don't seem to live in that world anymore, we're living in a world where most people are considered disposable, you're used until you're used up and ready to burn the place to the ground, then you're done away with by a single phonecall, and nobody gives a shit. All the government cares about is that corporations, not people, are doing well, making good profits, and they don't care if it's done on the backs of contractors and temps who are just thrown away like a discharged primary battery.
Some of you talk (whether you're serious or just trolling) about how 'robots are going to take our jobs'; well guess what? Being a 'contractor' or a 'temp' or a 'contingent worker' is more or less being a robot. You break down for some reason? You're not needed anymore? Into the e-waste bin you go.
Shit's got to change. We need to fight against this dystopia.
Oh, TVC15
then their secretary called me back sheepishly to un-invite me
I would have told the worthless cunt to go fuck herself and quit on the spot.
Yeah, Just hopped back on slashdot after a long hiatus followed by a short hiatus, I am glad to see some things never change,
It's oddly comforting to know that no matter how bad, ugly or nasty the world becomes one can always find the best of the worst right here on Slashdot.