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France Will Tax Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon In New Year (qz.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Quartz: France won't wait on the rest of the European Union to start taxing big tech. French finance minister Bruno Le Maire says the country will move ahead with a new tax on Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon starting Jan. 1, 2019. The tax is expected to raise $570 million in 2019. France and Germany had originally pushed for an EU-wide 3% tax on big tech firms' online revenues, in part to prevent companies like Apple from sheltering their profits in countries with the lowest tax rates. The deal, which required the support of all 28 EU states, appeared to crumble earlier this month, with opposition from countries including Ireland, home to the European headquarters of Google and Apple.
France and Germany attempted to salvage the deal by scaling it back to a 3% tax on ad sales from tech giants. That would effectively limit the tax to Google and Facebook, excluding companies like Airbnb and Spotify that might have been harder hit under the initial proposal. In the meantime, France is moving ahead with its own tax on Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon, which are collectively known in the region as GAFA. "The tax will be introduced whatever happens on 1 January and it will be for the whole of 2019 for an amount that we estimate at [$570 million]," Le Maire said at a press conference in Paris, the Guardian reported today (Dec. 17).
France and Germany attempted to salvage the deal by scaling it back to a 3% tax on ad sales from tech giants. That would effectively limit the tax to Google and Facebook, excluding companies like Airbnb and Spotify that might have been harder hit under the initial proposal. In the meantime, France is moving ahead with its own tax on Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon, which are collectively known in the region as GAFA. "The tax will be introduced whatever happens on 1 January and it will be for the whole of 2019 for an amount that we estimate at [$570 million]," Le Maire said at a press conference in Paris, the Guardian reported today (Dec. 17).
That's what you do when you're poor with finances and desperate: Steal from those who are better at managing their resources, and then pretend to be righteous about it.
Straight out of the Wealth Redistribution Handbook. Doomed to cause âoeunexpectedâ negative consequences for consumers.
In my native language, GAFA” translates as THE BLUNDER”.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
They they are slightly worse off than the US for national debt... of course in france they are trying to raise revenues, in the US we are lowering revenues and giving money back to millionaires...
So while they might be poor, they are doing something about it (boot straps!) where the US is hoping we are to big to fail ('Merica!)
France seem to be literally broke, first carbon tax, that didn't work because people started yellow vest moment, well lets tax google and wholesale has money. Some serious desperation, Macrone and his grandma are marching to the guillotine
Google and the rest of these digital giants pay a 9.5 percent effective tax in the EU compared to 23.2 percent for traditional businesses. They can squeal all they want but a hike of 3% is not going to make me cry any rivers over Google's pain. I pay way more than a measly 9.5% of my income into the state's coffers. Counting indirect taxes, tolls and fees the state takes around half of my income in one form or another.
Yes. The people that elected the state that caused the problem is going fix it by reelecting them again and again. That's the ticket.
There...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I think that is what they may want. Europe in general has been lagging behind the United States in terms of online services. Most of EU biggest tech companies are Industrial Technology (Siemens, Phillips, etc...) The Consumer Technology companies have a hard time competing against the Facebook, Amazon and Google. Primarily because they are so big, they can offer so many services so cheap that new competition will need boat loads of money to even be a threat. So making these products more expensive, it will open the door slightly enough to get their foot in.
We are in a time of a renewed sense of nationalism (Which I don't think is a good thing). But not just the United States, but every freakin country in the world seems to doubling down, protecting what they have, and preventing the "other" from coming in either physically, or with taxes and extra rules.
I expect this comes from the last Recession, because of the countries interconnection in trade that means stupid stuff done in America or China which you as a citizen has no control over, will affect your lively hood, and your countries economy. Now this works both ways, when the other countries does something good, you will also get its benefit as well. But the world is kinda feeling the pain from the last recession, and trying to lock out those "others" out.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
They all pay tax? If they don't, it is the tax system problem. Tax on revenue, not profit. Sales tax, too regressive, they say. Tax are not theft, the politicians are. They take money from you, distribute them to buy vote for the next election. You need more money? I will tax the rich and give it to you. So noble, like robin hood, which is a thief. Look at the USA, gas tax, road tax, license, vehicle registration ... all form of money due to support the US infrastructure, road are crumbling, bridge are collapsing, the transit system delay are common, you factor in your commute. The train became homeless shelter.
It is the socialist morons think they know how to distribute the money fairly while lining their own pockets. Socialism/Communism are not to blame. The peoples who think they know how to reach that are. Promoting ideas they have no way to pay for, when challenged, they label you fat cat, un-American. I mean why not say I am inhuman?
Bullshit.
You do business in a country, you pay tax in that country. Period.
Companies have been allowed to play shell games with where they claim the revenue is earned so they can pay as little tax as possible. But you can guarantee Google is making money off people in countries they aren't paying tax in.
The real wealth redistribution handbook is the bullshit playbook which makes sure the rich get richer, and the rest of us get poorer. It's time to stop following the unbridled capitalism wealth redistribution playbook, and stop making companies pay taxes.
The problem we have now is companies get to game the system and claim to not be making revenue from places when they clearly are.
Being a corporation isn't magical, and neither is being an American corporation. You do business there, you pay taxes there. None of those "oh, we don't have to pay taxes here" bullshit.
I'm still waiting for this fairy tale to manifest.
Seriously, prices have very little to do with production costs. The costs are the bare minimum for the price, because selling under would mean that you incur a loss with every item sold, but that's it. The price of a product is where the seller expects the highest profit. You think those iPhones cost almost the 1200 bucks to make that they're asking? Please.
So unless those 3% tax put the production cost over the selling price, don't expect the price to change at all. And considering the reported profits of the companies involved, I dare say it's not even close to it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Fortunately selling user data in that manner is illegal in the EU. Good thinking!
They can rise prices, not sure how that works on their free services but okay. Anyway, if they jack up prices it just helps other services compete with them, so it's a win for us.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
good intention but doing the wrong thing
This will slow innovation (which I assume Google will use its wealth to create something sequential to human), and prolong human suffering. If we decide socialism is the right system, we need capitalism to be destroyed. You can't fight a system to reinforce itself, unless you push it to critical mass, and let it self destruct. When marginal profit is zero, capitalism collapse. We are not there yet, but we are ever closer. The dirty cheap silverware that I use for my dinner, no kings or queens can afford 100 years ago. The clothes that I am wearing, no kings or queens can afford 50 years ago. The smart phone that I am using today, no one can afford it 25 years ago, not even the f*ing POTUS.
Every innovation push us towards the utopia. If you don't mind living like 100 years ago, your life could be totally free. 50 years from now, your current living standard is free for all. Not because of socialist, not because of politicians who demands (like a kids who throw temper tantrum), but because of innovation, clever engineering, and visionary.
You fools! This won't be used to reduce the borrowing even a little bit. It will just be spent and the same amount of borrowing will occur!
Quit blaming companies when the problem is your voracious spending and voting habits!
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Did you read that on Breitbart or something? Wouldn't be surprising why one issue is singled out while everything else that does not fit into their narrative is ignored.
The situation is a bit more complicated in France. Macron wanted to reform his country and the EU and bring capitalism back on track to reduce the national debt. He's more of a globalist as far as the EU goes and more of a protectionist as far as everything else goes.
He loosened the labour rights. He's for corporate tax cuts as well as income tax. Because he wanted to make France's industry more attractive for investment. He's for spending cuts in the public sector including welfare. All things that earned him the title 'president of the rich'.
The carbon tax, which is meant to cut reliance on fossil fuels of which the EU has very few on their own, mostly burdens the lower class was just the final nail in the coffin. A misguided approach, which also shows again that the is not a man of the people. This was the last straw that broke the Camel's back and what used to be frequent protests against his reforms turned into riots.
So just to make clear what this is about. They're mostly rioting because their socialism was taken away by Macron.
Force tax-cheating companies to cut their "but it is leeeegal"-bullshit and compete on equal terms as local companies.
Longterm, make EU close the loopholes that only profits big companies.
Any company that don't pay tax will of course be more successful than a company that has to pay tax.
This is like the Amazon thing about moving to Long Island City - it's not fair for everyone. GAFA in Europe have created jobs but have taken business away from other companies who just CANNOT compete. Taxes are way higher on smaller businesses. Google have got bigger tax breaks by headquartering in Ireland but really making revenue elsewhere. They also have operations and tax breaks from operating out of Luxembourg. All in all it's a direct tax on those companies to offset their (perfectly legal, but incredibly unfair) tax deals with various EU states which allow them to trade almost tax free IN OTHER EUROPEAN STATES.
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
So making these products more expensive, it will open the door slightly enough to get their foot in.
So Trump proposes tariffs to do the same thing and it is the most irresponsible idiotic thing any leader has ever proposed.
A socialist does it because his groups of friends has so destroyed the French economy they are desperate to get more money, and NOW its a smart idea?
That what you can love about progressives. They don't care if the idea is good or not, it only matters who proposes it.
https://www.bfmtv.com/economie/combien-d-impots-paient-aujourd-hui-les-gafa-google-amazon-facebook-apple-uber-netflix-twitter-au-fisc-francais-1586463.html
G**gle declared for France earning of 325M€ and payed 14M€ tax that is 4.3% ratio over declared earnings.
But the total market of online advertisement in France is 2G€ and G**gle is credited of 90% marketshare there. So real earnings should be around 1.8G€ only for France.
See the article for the complete figures ... all the big ones have the same oddities in their accounts and do no contribute much to the country's finances. The government is more keen on talking about GAFA but the problem is there for all the big corps in CAC40 as well.
France only have taxes on benefits an not earnings and that's the trick here. If you find a way to have low benefits, you will get no/little tax. How ? Well, you only have to go sufficient expences to pay to your mother corp (brand rights, "bundled services", etc) to make cost higher and get less benefit and thus taxes.
One other trick is to create a "global" product or offer that is delivered acually locally by a local entity. When the real cost of the service at the local entity is X, you will bill the customer say n*X but only pay back the entity that delivered (and got the cost) X plus a tiny amount. This amount will be just enought so that the local entity does not earn too much. Hence they do not get benefit and their applied taxes. The delta is kept at the holding level usually in a "well known finacial friendly" location.
Meanwhile, small businesses that contribute the more job in a country have a tax of around 33.3% of benefits !
That one of the reason of the Gillets Jaunes protests.
They are not taxing the US at all. These corporation make money in France and pay very little tax there. It's not fair, and this new tax is a good starting point. These corporations will be free to avoid France if they don't like the tax.
Only 23% in Europe? My company in the netherlands has to pay around 40% in taxes on profit, only foreign companies that wish to setup a company in the netherlands get to pay less taxes.
I think the 23% is an average after all loop holes and tax avoidance schemes have been taken into account. Another thing to consider is that the large majority of companies are smaller companies who do not have the resources to avoid taxes like Google/Amazon/Facebook/Apple and the likes can so they pull this average up. The big players pay way less taxes than small to medium businesses because they, unlike the little guys, can afford to hire entire financial services companies who dedicate themselves 24/7 to help the likes of Google to dodge taxes. I've heard figures of Google and friends paying as little as 2-3% effective taxes in the US.
So far I saw the term GAFA only on /.
I doubt it is a common term in any part of Europe.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Vacation is around 30 days, give or take, that are 6 weeks.
As we have school holidays of about 12 weeks per year, actually more, those 6 weeks are badly needed.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
If the taxing authorities go after the big tech companies hard enough, they will ultimately just abandon the markets trying to profit from their success. Think how great it'll be in France were Amazon/Google/Apple to abandon them--they would have to rely in China for tech and ultimately end up like N. Korea and Cuba with 20 year old technology and a thriving market for second- and third-hand smart phones.
When the taxes to do business in a market climb to a certain point, it's no longer profitable or worth the effort to service said market. And it's not like there are a lot of viable options besides Google (and technology partners) or Apple for mobile devices. Paying taxes is one thing, but what France and the EU are trying is more like pay-to-play or straight-up graft.
What's success? Europeans on average have longer life expectancy, better services, more vacation, and generally happier lives. Per-capita GDP isn't the only appropriate measurement of a country's success.
The yellow vests? At least the French have TIME to protest and their police and military aren't vile enough to pull Kent State II (as would happen if there were mass protests in the USA).
More like 6 weeks, but are you jealous that some people live in countries where they're not worked until they get ill? 60-80 hour weeks in tech are a sad life, nothing to be proud of.
Gotta pay for all the free stuff given to all the illegal aliens coming from Africa somehow.
We won't know 2018 tax revenues until mid/late 2019 when all tax returns are filed and refunds given.
Then they'll be fined until they mend their ways. If they're run out of the EU, good riddance to bad trash.
I'm pretty sure this is going to fall apart. France is trapped in the EU and this kind of decision will cause many issues if it's doing this on its own. It's never going to work IMO. Just sounds like a bullshit announcement. It's part of the announcements to calm down the protesters which amongst many things, protest against tax injustice. As the french government refused to reactivate the "rich tax" (ISF), this is done to compensate, knowing that they most likely won't be able to enforce it anyway. EU rules promote tax optimization. The rest is just comedy.
Fiscal year 2018 had record revenues. Remember the fiscal year is NOT the calendar year.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
So when a customer in France orders a product from me (in the US), I should pay French corporate income taxes on that product?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
A tax on a corporation is a tax on its customers, not on its owners. The costs are always passed along. Not that I cry any tears for marketeers buying ads, either.
Fortunately for us in the US, bills of attainder are unconstitutional. You can't just tax someone you don't like, or because they have money. That was one of the specific things that led to the Revolutionary War (though the event that kicked it off was attempted confiscation of "assault weapons", as we'd call them today).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
A tax on a corporation is a tax on its customers, not on its owners. The costs are always passed along. Not that I cry any tears for marketeers buying ads, either.
Fortunately for us in the US, bills of attainder are unconstitutional. You can't just tax someone you don't like, or because they have money. That was one of the specific things that led to the Revolutionary War (though the event that kicked it off was attempted confiscation of "assault weapons", as we'd call them today).
They are not going after Google because Google is an American company that they don’t like. They are going after these corporations because they use public services but contribute next to nothing in return and what little they do pay in taxes they pay iin tax shelters and not the county where the profit is made. Critics of corporate taxation in the US have the exact same complaints of these same corporations over the same shenanigans.
They're going after them because they have money, and France needs money. Don't confuse the reason with the sales pitch. Meh, I guess if you look at this as a tariff on digital goods, it's a fairly normal thing for a government to do.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
As a small business, our ownership leans progressive.
Private healthcare benefits large business hugely as they can create huge groups and get big discounts.
We want equal footing when competiting, that means no subsidies and universal healthcare (or at the very least all healthcare purchased through the marketplace and no discounts for big companies).
The price difference we pay for healtchcare vs a large company would go a long way towards good times for us.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
How can the French Tax Office gauge and check all those companies' profits?
No way! Unless the big companies will friendly declare all their revenues.
Ah ah ah ah!
They will end up with a totally gratuitous lump sum, aka tarif forfaitaire.
You make me laugh out loud, Mr. President!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
Please, Mr. Slash Dot, notice the fine UTF-8 related bug I am showing up here!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
They are not taxing the US at all. These corporation make money in France and pay very little tax there. It's not fair, and this new tax is a good starting point. These corporations will be free to avoid France if they don't like the tax.
They are big enough that they just might do that at some point. Be careful what you wish for ...
They are not taxing the US at all. These corporation make money in France and pay very little tax there.
Well, what one would say is... while Google earns money from French companies buying ads to display on their Google Search website: the amount the French authorities want to tax is an amount disproportionate to the amount of money Google makes in France. It looks like France wants to lay a tax on what amounts to 15% of their profit for the entire Europe, Middle-East, and Africa region.
These corporations will be free to avoid France if they don't like the tax.
Its not so easy.... these greedy countries are likely arguing that since Google's website is on the internet -- it therefore can be accessed worldwide, and therefore, always operates in France no matter what; French internet users can access their site, therefore the revenue from the ads displayed when their website is accessed remotely count.
They arent going to leave. Even paying higher taxes they will still make money.
What's wrong with 20-year old technology and second-hand smartphones? I'm of the opinion that 24/7/365 connectivity is actually harmful and doesn't add much to society. In fact, a cell phone is a tracking device. The problem with North Korea and Cuba isn't lack of cell phones; it's lack of other aspects of freedom.
The idea of a free low-tech society is fine with me. The corporations like Google? Screw 'em and good riddance if they leave -- their entire business model is to track, invade privacy, mine data, slice, dice, until we have no privacy and freedom left.
Commodities are most of the market. They aren't priced like iPhones or Rolexes.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
not only their web site is accessed from France, but they sell advertisements to corporations and individuals based in France
the amount the French authorities want to tax is an amount disproportionate to the amount of money Google makes in France
I disagree, given the so low tax rate to begin with.
The big players pay way less taxes than small to medium businesses because they, unlike the little guys, can afford to hire entire financial services companies who dedicate themselves 24/7 to help the likes of Google to dodge taxes.
Bingo.... this is the problem (1) Legislators always want to carve out special exceptions and credits in the tax laws to benefit themselves, special interests that helped them, write in credits for activities they would like to encourage and penalties for activities they would like to discourage --- resulting in enormously complex steaming pile for the tax code, And Then (2) Accountants and Lawyers specialized in tax Available for hire by these companies are law are smarter than the legislators who make the laws.
So don't blame Google. Blame the stupid legislators that came up with the tax codes --- the only way you avoid unintentional loopholes and other situations where the tax code unfairly harms or unfairly helps someone else is to KISS (keep it simple stupid).
Basically, throw out all the dumb enormously complicated income tax crap, credits, and subsidies of all type, and impose say a 5% Trade Tax that is enforced equally against EVERY Person coming into a trade (including corporate persons).
For individuals it does look similar to income tax --- Since performing labor for salary would be a Taxable Trade -- the employee pays 5% tax on the cash the employer pays 5% tax on the value of labor presumed to be the same as the cash unless shown to be more, but for Google, Etc, it cannot be avoided in any way, because at the end of the day ---- the only way for a company to generate a profit is by trading away a good or service in exchange for cash or another good/service, and each Trade is individually taxable at the gross value of the trade, without regard to whether its profitable ----- Buyer pays 5% tax on the cash that changes hands plus the seller pays 5% tax on the cash that changes hands: each party is required to ensure that every transaction is electronically reported to the government with banking or employer information when the trade is made, And tax will be automatically witheld from the individual's either next paycheck or banking deposit transaction Plus if one participants of the trade paid in raw Currency not monitored by the banking system -- then double the tax should be witheld from that one side, as well --- when a corporation deposits a payment or an individual or company deposits cash in any form, the trade tax will be automatically witheld from their deposit; with refund for cases where tax was over-collected, (Only after the the financial reports are filed by the company or individual showing all their trades and what transactions the raw currency came from).
Rather convenient propaganda for wealthy people to say "oh don't tax us, you are only hurting the poor!" when there's an entire industry supporting corporations and their owners evading taxes.
It's simple. Tax the owners, not the corporation. There, done.
If the owners want to in any way get money from what they own, then they have to get a dividend or sell stock or something.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I am not sure about google or Facebook, but I know France has a hefty VAT tax so makes a good chunk of change off every Apple product sold.
Progressive lies.
Gets called out and told the truth.
Progress repeats SAME lie pretending he didn't get called out.
Gets called out second time for lying.
Progressive then gets upset and calls other people names for being called a liar twice for same lie and can't refute it.
And progressives are not sociopaths? You are a moron.
Yes, destroy us by leveling the playing field, exactly.
Taxes are almost irrelevant (since we pretty much break even, the owners basically have jobs because of the companies existence, nobody is making money not working), and terrible regulations like having healthcare? we did that anyway.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
If you allow International companies to do business in your country it's only fair that these companies should pay for the privilege ofbeing allowed in the country. It is in a country's best interest to not allow it's value to be siphoned out, bur rather absorb value into the country. Basically you better be giving France back at least what you are taken out of France, are you represent a slow erosion of France's control over its own prosperity
For every french fry sold at McDonald's.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
It was before the last recession-- Starting in the 70s markets were deregulated (Reagan/Thatcher) rightwing, romanticizing immigration cultures left wing. It is sweeping through the EU.
It's almost like I was comparing a revenue tax vs a profit tax.
Our current state and locality does not have one, and no progressives are trying to make it happen.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Google's customers are the ad buyers, and costs are passed along to them. When costs rise, they buy fewer ads, and the business doesn't do as well, so the taxes are also paid by the owners. As an owner of Google stock, France is taxing me.
I'm proud of the work I do and what I create, and I'm proud of the US work ethic.
The people that built Google and made it great, so great that people in France who work 35 hours per week can't compete with it, deserve to reap the benefits.
Macron and his grandma are marching to the guillotine
Quite the opposite: taxing the GAFA is something that the yellow vest movement has been asking for.
funny thing is the the US govt spends more on health in terms of % of GDP than the UK does and the UK has a full national health service free at the point of (ab)use (my wife is a GP in the NHS so i hear the stories).
Not sure if France has a better taxation system, but in Canada, corporations such as Netflix and Google are well known to avoid the VAT (GST/PST) because of loopholes. What they do is that they create a corporation called Netflix Canada, which is based in Canada and receive subsidies for TV/film production.
But the main service (the video streaming monthly subscription) is sold by Netflix USA/Luxembourgh/Whatever which claims has no physical presence in Canada and therefore doesn't have to charge/collect GST. You can't do that for physical goods since GST would be collected at the border (unless sent as a gift like many chinese ebay sellers do) so it's a loophole in the tax code made before the Internet.
No, but their calculation still follows the rule that the price is set at the point of the most profit, not "cost + a little bit".
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
GP stated "You do business in a country, you pay tax in that country. Period." How does that apply to products ordered from outside the country, via the Internet? Is that doing business in the destination country or not?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
I'm proud of my work too, but I'm not going to kill myself, ruin my health, and ignore my family just to make a CEO up top a few million extra while they throw me a few thousand for my trouble. Ever seen Con Air -- love this scene with Steve Buscemi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
The costs are always passed along.
I'll cry for the Advertisers a bit later tonight once I'm done with my Dr Evil laugh.
I wonder if my town can level a tax on just the grocery store and hardware store? Or can they tax the auto parts store on the East side of Main Street, but not the one on the west side? The sandwich shop, not the burger place? Can you create a tax on select individuals? Mark, but not Bill?
I suspect the answer is yes in all cases, but that you just don't write it that explicitly in the legislation.