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Elon Musk Breaks Ground on Tesla's Shanghai Factory (cnbc.com)
Tesla CEO Elon Musk and Shanghai Mayor Ying Yong celebrated on Monday the ground breaking of the electric automaker's first non-U.S. factory. From a report: "China is becoming the global leader in electric vehicle adoption, and it is a market that is critical to Tesla's mission to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy," Musk said, according to a company statement coinciding with the ceremony for the Shanghai factory. In Twitter posts before the event, Musk said that the factory will produce "affordable versions" of Model 3 and Model Y vehicles for the Greater China region, and that the plan is to "finish initial construction this summer, start Model 3 production end of year and reach high volume production next year."
According to the company, the so-called Gigafactory in Shanghai "will allow Tesla to localize production of Model 3 and future models sold in China, with plans to eventually produce approximately 3,000 Model 3 vehicles per week in the initial phase and to ramp up to 500,000 vehicles per year when fully operational (subject to local factors including regulatory approval and supply chain constraints)."
According to the company, the so-called Gigafactory in Shanghai "will allow Tesla to localize production of Model 3 and future models sold in China, with plans to eventually produce approximately 3,000 Model 3 vehicles per week in the initial phase and to ramp up to 500,000 vehicles per year when fully operational (subject to local factors including regulatory approval and supply chain constraints)."
It had been leaked previously that the Shanghai factory would only be producing the Model 3 and Model Y. Model S and X would continue to be built exclusively in California. But earlier this morning Elon tweeted that it would only be producing the least-expensive versions of the 3 and Y. The Performance version of the 3 in particular is apparently going to be made only in California. That was a bit surprising. It looks like the rest of the world is going to have to pay a rather sizable premium for that top versions of the Model 3 compared to the price of the base vehicles.
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Maybe the top versions are harder to connect to China's shaming points system?
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
On the other hand, it's quite possible that the cheapest versions of the Model 3 will be cheaper in China than in the rest of the world. Labour and supplier costs are certainly lower there than in Fremont.
Battery cell costs are an open question. Panasonic isn't going to be as closely involved there as they are with Tesla's US operations; Tesla plans to use predominantly Chinese cell suppliers.
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
Or, start with 156,000 a year
Full battery cars hit the trifecta. They are greener, not more expensive, and better. The acceleration and low CG are just the beginning. two, three or four independent motors which can rotate at different RPMs, with time lag between them controlled by computers, torque vectoring.... We are bare scratching the surface of handling superiority of BEV.
I wish Tesla will get a good chunk of the future profits to be made by BEVs, I am sympathetic to it for taking the risk and betting the farm on it. But even if that does not happen, and this century Tesla is also remembered, like the last century's, as a "great vision, but poor execution", the world will be a better place.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
That isn't surprising. All car companies do the same. Look at Volvo: only the "cheapest" models of a line are made in China. The rest are made in more expensive places.
Good for them. Why do you want more expensive polluting shit?
Absolutely a direct result of tariffs. Thanks Trump. Impeach this motherfucker.
You're right - I'm everywhere. I'm everyone. Nothing happens without my nod; all that transpires is due to the sheer force of my will. I am a shape shifter. I live in the cracks. I'm watching when you least expect it. I live in the shadows of your darkest fears. In your weakest moments when you are naked and vulnerable, I'm there. Watching, waiting, posting. I live through you all, within you, and beside you. I am the breath on the back of your neck, the breeze in your hair, the moisture in the air.
Cheers!
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
Also a direct result of China's bigger market and faster growing middle class. (Not shrinking like the USA)
Has far more to due with the Chinese tariffs that existed long before Trump. Before you had to manufacturer there with ownership of the plant just under 50 percent (going from memory not sure of the number) to avoid the 25% tariff. Trump might be right about Chinese existing tariffs, I wish there was someone more competent than Trump to handle the situation. He is not so likely to handle it well
How about a more affordable car without all the auto-driving bullshit?
Something to compete with the Smart EV, the Nissan Leaf, etc.
You are criticising somebody else for spamming Tesla stories?
Pot, meet kettle.
I wonder if they might be planning to export some of those cheap Model 3s. For example they already export from the US to Europe, with some reassembly done in the EU to avoid tariffs. Maybe that's one way they can get the price down far enough to make the $35k model worthwhile.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I am the breath on the back of your neck, the breeze in your hair, the moisture in the air.
Wow! Cool! It sounds like you are a Huldufólk!
You are most welcome on my lawn!
Not that I would notice you anyway . . .
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Chinese battery tech has proven to be reliable and robust in harsh use cases such as commercial vehicles. Buses and taxis running them hard every day, that sort of thing.
With a battery made up for many, many cells it's not necessarily the case that you want the highest quality, because that pushes the price up a lot. It can often be better to over-provision and accept a slightly higher failure rate among individual cells.
For example Kia and Hyundai have both released 64kWh usable capacity cars with lifetime, unlimited mileage battery warranties. Most other manufactures only offer 8 years and 100-120k miles. They don't state the full capacity of the batteries, only the amount they guarantee is available when new and for warranty purposes. The full capacity is probably a trade secret, as it depends on LG's manufacturing capability and how much they need to over-provision to offer the lifetime warranty.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I wonder what color paint the Chinese prefer these days. Any ideas?
LG isn't Chinese; it's Korean. But I agree with your general point; Chinese li-ions have seen widespread use, and while they're generally not "top end", they're perfectly fine. Any differences vs. Panasonic will be compensated for with a higher cell count.
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
"Nazi China is becoming a world power thanks to its innovative use of slave labour to keep prices down..."
It all comes back eventually.
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Where there are no pesky ethical matters to concern ourselves with. Apple got absolutely bitch slapped for this years ago. I guess our collective consciousness has slipped more than few degrees given that millennials aren't in possess of any consciousness.
White.
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
I wonder what color paint the Chinese prefer these days. Any ideas?
Lead White?
No, but you keep posting BS Tesla crap. Everyone knows it is you doing it. Keep on hyping it up.
Two toned! Burnt umber and Taco Bell beef color
I don't. Are you talking about Tesla's, or Vovos. Both pollute.
...aaaaaand it's gone
Are they gonna sell these trucks rednecks use to drive around and terrorize citizens? Is China putting anything in place to officially prevent this?
I don't know if your assertion is true, but using slashdot to 'hype' something, is like using the Dalton Daily Post, population 310, to 'hype' something.
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
It's worth pointing out that the Chinese and Koreans are perfectly capable of producing top notch cells. Korea in particular supplies a lot of phone batteries that are the highest grade. It's just that economics of large automotive packs mean that the sweet spot on the price/performance curve is in a different place.
BTW I didn't imply LG was Chinese... I had switched to talking about Kia and Hyundai, Korean manufacturers, by that point :-) And it's worth saying that LG is actually the leading automotive battery manufacturer right now, in terms of tech and price per kWh. Their pouch cells look like being the way forward, with higher density and lower weight than cylindrical cells.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Rei has level 45 achievements, 2^4 submitted stories. Way better than your record of 0 stories submitted. 2^10 +5 insightfuls too.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Maybe... It's hard to take anything Musk says too seriously, let alone his tweets.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Five six years down the line, there is going to be another industry to unpack, salvage still good cells and create refurbished batteries from salvaged cells. Down graded cells might be repacked into less demanding applications like power wall.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Elon Musk Breaks Ground on China's Tesla Factory.
As of right now, any automotive company in China must be at least 51% State owned - meaning, it's a Chinese company and they get to run it as they want, and will do so as soon as Musk is no longer needed. Banking, steel, transportation, telecom - those are the big ones the Chinese Government reserves for itself.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
That's old fake news. What rock have you been hiding under?
Fully disagree with your second paragraph. Panasonic is generally considered the leader in tech and price per kWh. Check out, for example, the Munro teardowns; they've studied all of the cells on the market used by all major EV manufacturers, and put Panasonic way out in front. Panasonic's cells have simultaneously the lowest-cobalt of the cobalt-bearing EV chemistries (lower than the cobalt targets of most manufacturers next-gen cells), yet the among the highest energy densities, and are around $100/kWh (and falling). GM has stated that their cells from LG for the Bolt cost $145/kWh. None of this should be surprising; Panasonic makes over half of the world's EV kWh.
As for cylindrical vs. pouch cells, cylindrical cells are simultaneously more gravimetric energy dense, easier to cool, lower thermal expansion, greater durability, and offer much higher redundancy. Pouch cells are the "junk" of the li-ion battery world. They swell heavily and offer almost no mechanical resistance against damage.
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
Besides assuming Slashdot achievements mean anything, which they don't, Rei is also a Tesla shill who will say ANYTHING to defend both the company and Elon himself. Take your lips of his cock and maybe you'll think just a little more clearly.
I'm going to sing a song,
about mayor Ying Yong,
who along with Musk,
worked from dawn til dusk...
Munro haven't looked at a Kona as far as I can tell, and I couldn't find anything to indicate that they have looked at an LG pouch cell pack in any detail.
Cylindrical cells do have some advantages, that's likely why Panasonic recommended them to Tesla for automotive use. But since most people don't need sub 2 second 0-100 times or sustained track performance, if you want to get the price down you can just go with a bit less cooling performance. Redundancy isn't much different in practice as cylindrical cells are grouped together electrically in similar density anyway.
As for being "junk", maybe you think call cell phone batteries are "junk" or something... I don't know what to tell you, Kia and Hyundai offer a better warranty than Tesla so clearly they think they are pretty decent. There are plenty of junk cylindrical cells too, I don't think you can judge the form factor based on those.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Monroe is still talking about the tear down of an early 2018 model. Battery side there are small improvements. But on the body/assembly it became significantly better in May, (my car) and then even better in July/Aug.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
OMG, the Musk-hating Bitzstream sockpuppet strikes again.
They do seem to have improved the fitting of the bodywork considerably. Paint is still a bit hit and miss, but improving too.
Of course how much they pay per kWh for the batteries is a secret, but it does seem to be a bit more than Kia/Hyundai are paying for them. Either that or they are just ripping their customers off more.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
They just want some access to Tesla s network.
Doesnâ(TM)t matter if their crappy versions are built there. Sure, build the factory here and we will steal all your shit once we plug a couple usb drives into your network, arrest whatever VP we set up in China and then take the plant over.
Or just copy 10 more of them and all of our citizens will ignore the Tesla s.
They will by our homebuilt Tezla s.
By building a factory in China, Musk is providing the communist Chinese govt with a factory THEY will ultimately own, and training the Chinese workers and techs, and ultimately transferring all the know-how for Tesla cars, thus China will be able to out-produce and under-price Tesla within 20 years.
With this action, Musk has guaranteed that Tesla will fail by about 2040 and there's no reason to invest in it for the long term.
[facepalm]
In a Communist country there is by definition NO SUCH THING as a non-government "business", and all tech deployed there is given to that government. There's simply no way around this fact no matter how much any Wall Street inbvestor moron might want to pretend otherwise as he sells out the west for a short term illusory profit based on a supposed huge potential customer base in a land where the very idea of a "consumer" is illusory. Totalitarian governments suck, and any mirage of a marketplace is only a temporary fiction maintained by a government bent on vacuuming-up foreign tech.... for now.
Don't be surprised if China "requests" Tesla that if Tesla is to operate their business in their country, not only do their vehicles call home to Tesla (which they already do), they'd also need to call home to the Chinese government so people's location could be fully tracked at all times.
Seems like a simple thing to tweak to the current implementation and one that Elon Musk would have no problem doing whatsoever.
Absolutely they are. Cell phone batteries are terrible. The whole lot of them.
And remember that aforementioned swelling problem? Yep. (both types of failures were caused by swelling during operation, albeit for different reasons). Pouch cells are what you choose when you want something cheap and easy to make, but durability and reliability are not at the top of your concerns list.
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
Oh wow, a high character. I wonder when we can do curly quotes
This seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of lithium cells. For example, the cylindrical ones will swell just as much if they don't have proper venting. If they are made poorly and short out they are actually more dangerous than the defective Samsung cells you link to, as the resulting explosion is inside a pressurised metal can. That's why the decent ones have pressure vents, although inside a sealed automotive pack it might not help much.
Pouches should vent safely too if properly designed. Your own article notes that. That's what makes the Samsung debacle such an epic screw-up.
Pouch cells are chosen because of their form factor. No-one wants a phone the thickness of an 18650. Even the Nokia 3310 wasn't that thick. I'm curious to know what you think the alternative is.
I hate to say this but it really sounds like you are just making up ridiculous reasons why the technology that happens to be a bit ahead of your beloved Tesla is total crap. And this happens every single time. How long did it take to convince you that Kia/Hyundai/Nissan have a decent autopilot system? I bet even now you are thinking of reasons why it's awful and will certainly murder the user.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I doubt that it will be cheaper than elsewhere. For starters, the batteries in China are more expensive than Tesla/Panasonic. And since Tesla produces the bulk of their parts in-house, coming from China shops, will likely be more expensive.
As to the batteries, if Panasonic produces in China, it will just be their low-end stuff so that they do not have to worry about theft. Apparently, that is the same approach that Tesla will use. The motors will be low-end similar to what you would find in other Chinese cars. So, it appears that Tesla will NOT be allowing China to steal their manufacturing secrets. This is a Good thing.
Windbourne (moderating).
No, LG does not even come close to what Tesla's batteries has in terms of energy density, wh/kg, wh/$, etc. Right now, Tesla's cell controls the car market. It is exactly why Tesla has the lowest price for what they deliver, as well, as most cycles (over 3000 full cycles before hitting 80%; Chinese junk are all less than 1000 ). In addition, BYD has shown that their batteries are incapable of dealing with a bit of heat or cold. It kills their batteries quickly. Long beach, Phoenix, and Albuquerque are all returning their buses due to so many issues. And BYD is the best that China has to offer.
How is Tesla 'ripping their customers off more' when all 3 of their models are the top 3 highest sold EVs, all 3 have the highest resale value of ICE and EVs ( and Kia/Hyundai are actually below ICE average), and $ for $, Tesla is the most wanted vehicle going?
Sie müssen aufhören, für China zu arbeiten, und Ihren Hass auf Amerika anderswo einsetzen.
no.
The Tesla models that will be made in China, will be using Chinese made batteries and other low quality garbage.
As such, Tesla will not be exporting from there.
As to the 35K model, it will be out before July 4th and by next Christmas will be shipped from America all over, except to China.
A shill they may be, but at least Rei generally stays on topic. Which makes Rei's posts infinitely more interesting to read.
Try stopping the ad hominem attacks, and have a go at arguing some points that are actually on topic. We, the Slashdot crowd, will appreciate the effort.
Such a wanker with your head in the bog.
How Chinese Batteries Can Make You Explode. And this was just 2 months ago.
The Slashdot crowd is full of incel faggots like you. I don't give a damn what you appreciate. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop licking Elon's ass. The Donald Trump of Tech... and you're right there on your knees, tongue in overdrive.
They do not. Cylindrical cells mechanically resist most swelling from normal operation. Venting is only from abnormal operation, e.g. short-induced overheat.
All li-ion cells will fail severely in the event of a short. Shorts are self-propagating (a small short through the separator burns itself into a larger short just from the heat of the arc alone). What determines the consequence of a short at the cell level is mainly the electrolyte, although the rest of the cell's composition matters as well. There are electrolyte options that are entirely non-flammable, but there are performance tradeoffs.
Samsung's two back-to-back failures were both due to swelling (for different reasons), something that is minimal in cylindrical cells. Not due to "a failure to vent".
I'm not saying that there's a better alternative for phones. I'm saying that phone batteries suck. You don't want your car made like a cell phone when it comes to its power source. You tried to defend pouch cells in cars by bringing up cell phone batteries. That's not the sort of comparison you want to be making.
The fact that cell phone batteries suck isn't exactly a closely kept secret.
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
Wait, you are talking about the normal changes in size that are not a fault condition and which are designed to happen, either in a pouch or inside a metal tube? What exactly is the problem again?
Samsung's failures were both due to internal shorts due to manufacturing defects, causing abnormal swelling. If they had somehow released a brickphone that used cylindrical cells that had similar shorts they would have either vented or exploded. In that case having the pouch expand but not, in most cases, fail catastrophically, was actually better.
None of which explains why you think pouch cells are worse for automotive use. It's not like they are using actual phone batteries.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Internal shorts are always fatal for li-ion cells, regardless of the type. You should never have an internal short. You can't say "The problem was due to internal shorts causing abnormal swelling". Any sentence about li-ion failures ends when you get to the "internal short" problem.
You're confusing cause and effect. The swelling - something most pronounced in pouch cells, as they do not mechanically resist it - caused the shorts. Normally swelling does not cause shorts, but two different types of manufacturing defects caused the swelling to cause short circuits. The first one was due to an insufficiently small packaging to handle worst-case swelling. The second was due to sharp protrusions which punctured the membrane during the flexure that occurs during swelling. Neither would have happened in cylindrical cells, because cylindrical cells resist swelling.
Pouch cells are just not as mechanically durable as cylindrical cells. Any list of battery cell type advantages and disadvantages will tell you this. I'll repeat: pouch cells are the junk of the li-ion battery world.
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
I think AmiMoJo is confusing "warranty length" for "battery lifespan". It's a common fallacy when looking at low-volume EV production where people assume that all vehicles have similar profit margins and you can do a feature-for-feature comparison to determine manufacturing costs, properties, longevity, etc from this. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of manufacturers lose money on their EVs (and freely admit to this) or earn only de minimis margins, so things like warranty length (aka warranty costs to the manufacturer) are mostly unrelated to the actual longevity.
Tesla has a 20% (and rising) margin on the Model 3 (see its earnings reports). Hyundai has a barely over breakeven margin on even its Ioniq EV (which has a much smaller battery than the Kona).
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
A telling factor is that Tesla has made it clear that even for the Chinese market, high-end Model 3s, and all Model S and Model X, will be made in the US and exported to China. Only low-end Model 3s and Model Ys will be made in China.
Even in China, "Made in China" is not seen as a mark of quality. Affluent Chinese generally prefer imports to domestic goods.
Musk needs a safer hobby than Twitter. Fire juggling? Cage fighting? Solo hot air balloon trips?
Thing is cylindrical cells will not be any better, as I already explained. They change geometry internally too, which can cause a short if they are not properly manufactured. It's nothing at all unique to pouch cells. It's just that because pouch cells can expand and usually vent along the seams they mostly don't become high pressure bombs in the event of such a failure.
But none of that is relevant to automotive packs because the packs themselves are sealed, meaning that ultimately both types of cell are enclosed in a metal box with its own vent.
As for less durable, sure if you are handling them. But these are automotive cells inside a sealed pack.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
There is much anger in this one.
No problems. I'll just downvote all comments like yours. The Slashdot crowd doesn't need to put up with that sort of shit.