Hebei, a Northern Chinese Province, Unveils an App That Triggers a Notification When You're Near Someone in Debt (standard.co.uk)

neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:00 · Score: 1

Try that in the US and the collective noise and rumble from all the alerts going off at once would level the nation.

Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:08 · Score: 0

Don't see why USA is different. And it's not noise - you can compare the score and find most shamefull person.
Re: neat by b0s0z0ku · 2019-01-23 05:19 · Score: 2

Why is debt necessarily shameful? Sometimes, it's better to risk the banksters' money than your own.
Re: neat by edris90 · 2019-01-23 05:39 · Score: 1, Interesting

That indicates impatience, and a willingness to take what you have not yet earned. As well as indicates a certain lack of ingenuity because why didn't you find actions directly solve your problem instead of resorting the last ditch efforts like economics. Generally taken as an indicator that a person is not wise enough to self sacrifice. And not practical enough 2 find alternative Solutions to their problemm. In our culture debt symbolizes all that, accurate or no, that is the impression people are getting. At least in elite Society. Now in the Working Poor faction ofSociety. There is no shame in debt, because everyone gets underpaid and overcharge d. There's a perception nothing Real Deals available, so survive and thrive whern you can
Re: neat by b0s0z0ku · 2019-01-23 05:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

The rich are more than happy to take VC money. Debt. They're more than happy to buy commercial real estate on credit and declare bankruptcy if it doesn't work out. Debt. Fear and stigma about debt are very much middle-class, petty bourgois feelings.
Re: neat by lgw · 2019-01-23 07:15 · Score: 1

Business debt is very different from personal debt. And even then: debt for capex is fine, but debt for opex is shameful.

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re: neat by DigiShaman · 2019-01-23 07:26 · Score: 1, Flamebait

So what you're saying is that I can quickly identify who would be a quick cheap whore for the night, right?!

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Life is not for the lazy.
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 07:36 · Score: 0

It's neither shameful nor laudable, it just is. Sometimes, borrowing for opex is needed to build a business (or even build a life, too). Remember, even if one goes bankrupt, the banksters are the ones being hurt, not real people.
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 07:41 · Score: 0

You can't even form a proper sentence, why are you giving lectures about a topic you clearly know nothing about?
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:16 · Score: 0

Itâ(TM)s very hard to buy a house without going in to debt unless youâ(TM)re rich, and even the rich borrow money to buy a house because the interest rates are generally lower than what they can make by investing their money in the stock market. Whatâ(TM)s immoral about going through the standard process to own your own home?
Re: neat by HornWumpus · 2019-01-23 08:16 · Score: 1

Capitalizing opex is a great plan. It makes the company look profitable and makes it look like it's holding a valuable software system asset, not an unsupportable money pit.
Then you get yourself acquired and _RUN_.
Tricky part is getting it past due diligence. I've seen auditors sign off on mature software development efforts that call 100% of dev costs systems development (capitalized), 0% as maintenance (expensed). Think of it as a MBA idiocy bene, the flip side of all the pain they cause.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re: neat by sjames · 2019-01-23 09:48 · Score: 1

Or it means you had an emergency (such as a trip to the ER) where you accepted the debt while bent over a barrel. In some cases, you might not have accepted the debt at all but had it thrust upon you. As in you feel kind of dizzy and then you wake up as the new proud owner of a few thousand or a million dollars worth of debt.
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 10:53 · Score: 0

There are many different types of debt. I prefer to think of debt as leverage. The most important thing to think about is what are you leveraging with your debt. If I am borrowing for the latest i-gear or TV's or even a luxury sedan, the investment is not worth the debt because these goods become nearly worthless as investment vehicles. If I am borrowing to purchase a house or a business or an education that will profit me more than the price of the debt over the life of the product plus the opportunity costs - then it is a good investment.
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 11:14 · Score: 0

It's not, this deuce just hates the USA.
Re: neat by lgw · 2019-01-23 11:21 · Score: 1

It's very hard to buy a house without going in to debt unless you're rich,

I didn't buy a house until I could afford to pay cash. This comes before retirement: owning your house outright is the best and first step towards the financial security needed in retirement. But then, I've lived mostly in places with real estate bubbles, where renting was much cheaper than crazy impossible house prices, and that's not generally true.
Most financial advisors will say "no debt except a mortgage", and I think that's fair.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 11:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why is debt necessarily shameful? Sometimes, it's better to risk the banksters' money than your own.
That indicates impatience, and a willingness to take what you have not yet earned.

Open heart surgery put me $160k in debt, and it was not impatience so much as urgency to remain living.
But you are damn right I was willing to take what I had not yet earned. I would still have taken it even if I knew for certain there was no possible way I ever would have earned it. No question about it.

As well as indicates a certain lack of ingenuity because why didn't you find actions directly solve your problem instead of resorting the last ditch efforts like economics.
Because lacking $160,000 in my pocket, all other options would have resulted in my death.
Not being dead was the very problem I was wanting to avoid.

Generally taken as an indicator that a person is not wise enough to self sacrifice.

So my wisdom is now in question because I didn't self sacrifice my very life?

And not practical enough 2 find alternative Solutions to their problem.
So let's hear those alternatives solutions, I'm all ears.

In our culture debt symbolizes all that, accurate or no, that is the impression people are getting.
Perhaps some people, but all of the people in my life and most important to me all of the people that mean something to me do not seem to hold me to the impression you seem to have already made of me.
Not only was that entire debt paid in full in just a short couple years (a number of years ago now), but I am also alive, still working and contributing to society, and perhaps maybe even enriching other peoples lives by being a positive force in them.
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 11:36 · Score: 0

A mortgage is debt. Are you saying no one should buy a house until they've saved to buy it in full?
A car payment is debt too. Can't get a car to look for a job until you've bought one in full, too?
A college education means debt, too. And for many high paying careers, that's the cost of entry. Should college educations only be for those whose parents have saved dutifully during ones youth? Yes, we can argue about the outrageous cost, but until that changes, people are going to go to school and exit with student loans.
Yes, credit cards are obviously debt. But their use is so normalized, that you can get what you want today, not by sacrificing in earlier months, but by sacrificing (making credit card payments) after you've made the purchase.
None of these is wrong, I don't think.
Though I do agree that some people have debt that they can't sustain or never should have taken on, or been allowed to take on (by underwriters) in the first place.
And that goes for student loans especially. Need to take out 5-6 figures for a degree in a STEM field? Ok - you should have the earning power to pay that back. Taking out the same size loan for a liberal arts major? Well, the lenders will still give the loan, because they know the debt can't be discharged.
If student loans were dischargable, one wonders how much the landscape would shift.
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 11:56 · Score: 0

And in China this app will be used with that pettiness to further stamp down others for a brief feeling of superiority.
TL;DR humans are bastards.
Re: neat by ShanghaiBill · 2019-01-23 12:06 · Score: 1

Why is debt necessarily shameful?
Because the point of children in China is to support their elderly parents in retirement. How can they do that if instead of saving, they are taking on debt? That is selfish and disloyal to their family.
Chinese culture takes family loyalty very seriously. On a Chinese law exam, one question asked if both your mother and GF were drowning, which would you save? If you chose your GF, that was the objective legally WRONG answer, and you lost points.
Re:neat by Gavagai80 · 2019-01-23 15:26 · Score: 1

In the USA, people would be bragging about having the most debt. High debt means you have a high enough income to get lots of credit and you're living the idealized high flying risk-taking capitalist lifestyle and/or own a business.

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Re: neat by fubarrr · 2019-01-23 20:14 · Score: 1

Fly to Cuba, India or China, and have a cheaper surgery
Re: neat by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 23:05 · Score: 0

Hahahahahahahahah that is the stupidest thing Ive ever heard. So its a safe assumption that either youre rich with a high liquidity or youre not college educated. And more specifically if you are then it wasnt university which means not an advanced or highly technical (STEM) degree. It is very hard to do such a thing without some debt.
You must ride a bike or walk, or drive a shitty car that pollutes. You are limited likely in your ability to commute so your job opportunities are lower (generally older cars dont last super long commuting, and before some asshat says they have a car from the 80s they commute everyday, they arent telling you how hard it is to keep that car running and that they should have just bought something newer...ya know with all that debt they dont have)
China will eventually be debt based, you cannot have an economy of scale for long that can survive recession without debt.
Re: neat by alexgieg · 2019-01-24 02:41 · Score: 1

So let's hear those alternatives solutions, I'm all ears.
In China and other Asian countries people are obsessive about saving. I remember reading it's common for people to save 50% of their income. Besides, healthcare costs in the US are much higher than basically everywhere else due to the insane way American laws on this area are structured. Combine both things and you get a much more reasonable outcome.
So, googling a little I found that in China a surgery as the one you had costs about 7.5 times less than you paid, ~$21k (no idea whether that's up to date though). Beijing's average salary is ~$1.3k/month. Supposing one saves half that per month, that's ~33 months (~3 years) of savings to pay for the surgery. Twice that much if one saves 25%, or a little bit more (~7 years) if one saves 20%. Expensive for sure, but not backbreaking.
Now let's look at the $160k you paid. The average US salary is ~$3,7k/month. Supposing it's an average person who follows the soundest advice for saving 20% of their income, that's ~$740/month, or ~216 months (~18 years) of savings to pay for the surgery. So the US "typical best case" scenario is still 2.5 times worse than the Chinese worst case scenario. And few do even that much, so getting into debt it is.
And for a third point, here in Brazil an excellent health care plan, as the one I have, costs about $180/month, and covers surgeries such as yours plus hospitalization plus all related costs, including 365/days of UCI per years if needed. That's the full price if I were to pay for it out of pocket, but given my job pays most of it, it actually costs me $65/month.
A mix of minimally sane laws plus a culture of saving, as done in China, is therefore one alternative. Another is sane health care prices prices with continuous oversight of the government and competition from free (even if bad) free public hospitals, as done in Brazil, which combined force private health care prices down. And then there's the actual best alternative, which is European-style good free health care.
Why you Americans opt to suffer the way you do when it comes to health care, that's what I absolutely don't understand. You have the hugest GDP in the world. It'd be orders of magnitude more than what's required to fix this nonsense. Why you don't do that is, for me, a mystery.

--
Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.

Yuck! Poor people by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:02 · Score: 0

Get out of my way peasants!

The US does this already ... by CaptainDork · 2019-01-23 05:03 · Score: 1

... but they don't let the peasants know about it.

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It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.

Re:The US does this already ... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:06 · Score: 0, Insightful

You are comparing a Spanish Inquisition dungeon with a modern minimum-security prison and saying that they're essentially the same.
Please remove your head from your anus.
Re:The US does this already ... by fortythirteen · 2019-01-23 05:11 · Score: 1

Google knows a lot about you: what you look like, how you sound, your favourite place to get coffee. But all that information stays within Google, it isn't handed over to the UK government, who can then use it to decide if you deserve a mortgage or can go on holiday.
Anyone who believes there isn't a major caveat to that statement should read When Google Met Wikileaks
Re:The US does this already ... by alvinrod · 2019-01-23 05:23 · Score: 2, Funny

You don't need an app to alert you. In the U.S., the peasants will gladly make the identifying noise themselves when they tell you all about their art degree.
Re:The US does this already ... by CaptainDork · 2019-01-23 05:26 · Score: 0

My anus is a dungeon-like prison, you insensitive clod.

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It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Re:The US does this already ... by CaptainDork · 2019-01-23 05:27 · Score: 1

I've heard it.
It's a suppressed sneer.

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It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Re:The US does this already ... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:43 · Score: 0

Whenever I come across dumbshits like this. I just think about the CS degree hanging on my old bedroom at my parents and that I'm currently 100% debt free and should have a seven figure retirement.
Thanks Papa Trump!
Re:The US does this already ... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:05 · Score: 0

Bad, but still not the same.
Re:The US does this already ... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:10 · Score: 0

Don't lie. Men are in and out of it constantly.
Re:The US does this already ... by HornWumpus · 2019-01-23 08:20 · Score: 1

Comfy restraint chair?

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:The US does this already ... by CaptainDork · 2019-01-23 12:24 · Score: 1

Like Trump is in yours?

--
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.

Just constantly sound the air raid sirens... by Drethon · 2019-01-23 05:04 · Score: 1

... since everyone is in debt.

Re:Just constantly sound the air raid sirens... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 07:22 · Score: 0

Since when is debt a "negative social credit" factor? Unless they are saying it is positive, which seems even more unlikely?
I thought we abandoned the negative moral overtones surrounding debt when we abandoned debtor prisons. Modern economies would seize up and become non-functional if we abandoned debt.
Thus, simply signaling "hey, this person has debt" is about as useful as signaling, "hey, this person has shoes!" The signal-to-noise ratio on that alert is 100% and therefore entirely useless.
If you could signal that someone was late in making payments on their debt, that could potentially be useful. But even then, is such an alert socially appropriate? Does it have business value? There are social norms and expectations about when such a subject can and should come up. This sounds too much like generic citizen shaming. Why not resurrect the Scarlet Letter if you're going to do that? Hester Prynne is an Adulterer, and everyone must know it! Shame! Shame! Now let's go burn a witch!
Re:Just constantly sound the air raid sirens... by Luckyo · 2019-01-23 07:35 · Score: 1

Not in China, nor most of the world. The idea of bank-financed mortgage and consumer credit card debt hasn't really spread outside a few select countries of the West.
Most places use family financing for major purchases and debit/cash for consumer items. Personal debt being what it is in the West is largely absent in developing world for a wide variety of reasons.
Re:Just constantly sound the air raid sirens... by Luckyo · 2019-01-23 07:36 · Score: 1

Since always. The better question is "when did debt become a positive factor". Which is very recently, and in a very few countries that represent but a tiny fraction of planet's population.
We slashdot visitors just happen to overwhelmingly live in those countries.
Re:Just constantly sound the air raid sirens... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:23 · Score: 0

Since always. The better question is "when did debt become a positive factor". Which is very recently, and in a very few countries that represent but a tiny fraction of planet's population.
We slashdot visitors just happen to overwhelmingly live in those countries.
That's fine and all, but it is a little silly to tell someone they can't own a home until they save up 200,000, while also paying rent every month until then.
Especially when you can forgo rent, and use that exact same money to just pay a mortgage instead. Worst case scenario, you sell the house and pay off the rest of the mortgage and pocket the equity.
It would be financially foolish to not do this.
Re:Just constantly sound the air raid sirens... by Luckyo · 2019-01-23 10:05 · Score: 2

You seem to forget that a major part of home pricing is the availability of mortgage. When most people can't afford to pay 200.000 in whatever currency outright, homes in that place aren't priced that high.
Which is why it's "financially not foolish" to put most of the nation into debt. You increase the size of economy via home price inflation, and you ensure that your population is severely punished for ineffective economic status by loss of their home. It's a massive stick for the population and massive carrot for elites.
Which is in large part why it's not done in most of the world. Most of the world isn't stable enough to the point where elites can count on population not rising up and fucking them to death with bayonettes when things go south in the economy. When people don't lose their homes just because elites made some bad financial bets, they're a lot less violent, because they retain that thing which is cross culturally considered one of the most precious things one has, their own home. Rising up against elites would risk losing that in places where people own their homes, rather than just lease them from banks as long as they can make payments.
It's a harsh risk:reward calculus, and in many places in the world, the risk massively outweighs the reward.
China makes for a great example of economy transiting from one state to the other. Their elites are utterly horrified of their own populace going on long marches. Not only because said elites got their own jobs by doing just that, but because they know just how unstable system becomes when sufficient amount of population is deeply in debt to banks. A state into which city dwellers of China are increasingly pushed into.

Notification tone... by deathcloset · 2019-01-23 05:04 · Score: 5, Funny

"You are within zero meters of someone in debt..."
Notification tone...
"You are within zero meters of someone in debt..."
Notification tone...
"You are within zero meters of someone in debt..."
[Throws phone off bridge]
Fading notification tone...
"You are within thirty meters of someone in..."

Re: Notification tone... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:20 · Score: 0

Oh that was excellent - mod points whoever you are
Re:Notification tone... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:39 · Score: 4, Informative

I think what the summary misses - is that this is referring to social credit debt, not just any debt in general. This whole discussion is off the rails.
Re:Notification tone... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:05 · Score: 0

Good point. But the joke still works.

Social experiments by sinij · 2019-01-23 05:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

Communist Party of China is not afraid of massive scale social experiments of this kind. However, consequences of this are unpredictable. The CCP expects orderly society that could be easily subdued on individual level. This is one possible outcome (i.e. 1984). However, it is one of many possible situations. Humans are not designed to conform 100% of the time, and even Pope at some point watched porn.

I am hoping China taking a leap forward so the rest of us could watch from distance. However, last time they tried Social Engineering on a massive scale (i.e. Great Leap Forward) it didn't end well.

Something tells me the way society operates is hard-coded to a large degree, and trying to patch any of it drastically has a great chance to cause kernel panic.

Re:Social experiments by b0s0z0ku · 2019-01-23 05:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'd argue that China collapsing into civil war might be a good ending for the rest of the world...
Re:Social experiments by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:31 · Score: 0

Indeed. Let them destroy themselves and save us the trouble.
Re:Social experiments by cayenne8 · 2019-01-23 05:36 · Score: 1

I'd argue that China collapsing into civil war might be a good ending for the rest of the world...
And exactly how would that happen?
They don't allow the populous to have guns over there....
A civil war, or at least one against the tyranny of government doesn't work if the govt has guns, and all you have are "pointy sticks".

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Social experiments by GameboyRMH · 2019-01-23 05:47 · Score: 1

There's no meaningful difference difference between a pointy stick and a man-portable gun to a modern military with killer robots.

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"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Re:Social experiments by dryeo · 2019-01-23 05:58 · Score: 2

Well, somehow the Soviet block (E. Europe) seems to have successfully changed their repressive governments without guns while in the middle east where guns are common, it seems to be a shit show.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Re: Social experiments by Type44Q · 2019-01-23 06:31 · Score: 1, Funny

... and even Pope at some point watched porn.
Yeah but I'd to actually find out what kind... but think of the possibilities: Opus Dei pedo/snuff... Knights of Columbus 'Cops & Firefighters Undressed' 2019 pin-up calendar..."Irish Nuns Volume 3: Low Squats in the Cucumber Patch"
Re:Social experiments by Immerman · 2019-01-23 06:45 · Score: 3, Informative

In fairness, whenever the Middle East starts getting their shit together, Western powers overthrow their democratically elected governments and install puppet dictators in their place. Ditto when the puppets stop doing what they're told. Can't have a government that answers to the populace and their own interests interfering with the cheap flow of that sweet, sweet crude.

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--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Re:Social experiments by Oswald+McWeany · 2019-01-23 07:01 · Score: 1

I'd argue that China collapsing into civil war might be a good ending for the rest of the world...
Maybe long term it would... but... short term it would mean a global recession; scarcity for many products and technologies. Also... the uncertainty of a nuclear power being at war with itself and potential detonation by unknown activists.
I'd much prefer a bloodless revolution and I suspect that would be more likely too (and more likely to succeed). What we need is someone with modern ideals and human rights in mind to take ascendancy in China and guide them down a better path.

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"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Re:Social experiments by Oswald+McWeany · 2019-01-23 07:05 · Score: 1

There's no meaningful difference difference between a pointy stick and a man-portable gun to a modern military with killer robots.
Indeed. A modern military with missiles, bombs, mines, guns, tanks, planes, drones, helicopters, satellites, ships, etc... would make mincemeat out of any rebellion with guns. Guns alone will get you nowhere these days. To overthrow a tyrannical government you need access to heavier weaponry and higher technology.

--
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Re:Social experiments by dryeo · 2019-01-23 07:05 · Score: 1

Mostly true, though there is a lot of hatred between the various sects. There's also parts of Africa where the armed population seems more interested in killing their neighbours then overthrowing their repressive governments.
While there are lots of reasons to allow people to be armed, overthrowing better armed governments doesn't seem like one of them in today's world, and even in the past it has seldom helped.
Part of the well armed population usually likes the government, and the government, besides being better equipped, is usually better organized.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Re:Social experiments by b0s0z0ku · 2019-01-23 07:10 · Score: 1

A global recession can be a good thing, too -- recessions are the only time when carbon emissions go down globally.
Re:Social experiments by cayenne8 · 2019-01-23 07:11 · Score: 1, Informative

Well, somehow the Soviet block (E. Europe) seems to have successfully changed their repressive governments without guns

Hey, it can happen occasionally....but it happens faster with guns if it has too....and, having guns helps PREVENT the govt from becoming tyrannical to begin with....
Our US founding fathers knew this, and hence were often quoted, even outside of the constitution, etc.....as saying how important it was for the populace to be armed and stay armed as a last resort protection against the very govt. becoming tyrannical.
And yes, I know there are a lot of memes going around that have been shown to not have been said by the founding fathers, but there are plenty of quotes that are true.

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Social experiments by dryeo · 2019-01-23 07:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

Unluckily, starting with the whiskey rebellion, having a well armed population doesn't seemed to have helped. Even the one success I can think of in Athens Georgia, they actually broke into the government armory rather then use their own guns.
Has there ever been a success story of the people overthrowing a repressive government? The American Revolution was (colonial) government vs (overseas) government and still needed help from one of the major powers of the day.
It has also failed in one other way, mainly removing the need for a standing army, which at the time was considered a major enabler of tyranny.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Re:Social experiments by lgw · 2019-01-23 07:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

China is not a modern military with killer robots.
And lets not forget that the US revolution started with weapons far below the standard for the military at the time. However, before the shooting started, people had been quietly "stealing" (always an inside job) rifles and artillery from armories. Heck, the war started when the British tried to confiscate guns - not hunting rifles, but actual artillery. The only cannon they found were the ones too big to move with small teams of horses.
The arms you currently have in hand are a small factor compared to people willing to fight, and veteran leadership who knows how. US nationalists made British armories their first targets, and a lot of troops were armed with then-modern military weapons that way.
Most revolutions start with military units themselves opposing the government, but armed civilians hitting military bases before they quite know that a war has begun is the other way it plays out.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Social experiments by DigiShaman · 2019-01-23 07:30 · Score: 1

Cute. You think the rest of the world would actually learn from history, never doomed to repeat it?

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Life is not for the lazy.
Re:Social experiments by Immerman · 2019-01-23 07:32 · Score: 1

Not much better there - again, it's European colonialism that caused most of Africa's problems. The U.S. got a bit of an "advantage" there, since instead of exploiting the natives we massacred them and recolonized, so that the fight for independence was between Europeans and European emigrants, and once we won our independence we built a new government explicitly to avoid the worst problems we saw with Monarchies.
Europe learned their lesson from that, and afterwards the colonial powers mostly loosened their grip to fade into a "power behind the throne" role, avoiding outright rebellion, while leaving exploitative colonial power structures in place in the hands of native-born bureaucrats.
As I heard it well expressed once - Africa doesn't have what most of the rest of the world would consider "governments" - institutions at least nominally looking out for the well-being of the nation and its people - instead they have colonial wealth-extracting bureaucracies established for the sole purpose of putting wealth into the pockets of the top bureaucrats. And since those bureaucrats are now (mostly) elected locals rather than foreign powers, it's far more difficult to foster the public outcry needed for a revolution.

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--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Re:Social experiments by cayenne8 · 2019-01-23 07:44 · Score: 1

Indeed. A modern military with missiles, bombs, mines, guns, tanks, planes, drones, helicopters, satellites, ships, etc... would make mincemeat out of any rebellion with guns. Guns alone will get you nowhere these days. To overthrow a tyrannical government you need access to heavier weaponry and higher technology.
Hmm...I seem to recall several hot spots in the world, where under armed (but armed) guerrilla groups/armies have held off super power countries for years and years.
And if you consider it happening in your OWN country, you're gonna have defections, at least in the US, as that a lot of the armed services would refuse to take fire and wipe out their own brother citizens.
Its one thing to shoot a foreigner in a war, its a very different thing to shoot your neighbors.
If there were a civil war....armories would be raided (voluntarily or not)...and some of the weaker forces would have tanks, planes, missiles...etc....
I"m guessing if things broke down into anarchy, well, no one would care too much about ATF laws and punishments, and a lot of those rifles (sporting or not) would be quickly converted to full auto.
Guerrilla fighters can do a LOT, especially if they have help from the local populace, which would happen if another civil war occurred.
God forbid it comes to that, but the populace should always have that last ditch option open to them.
One of the last things a tyrannical government does before running roughshod over the people, is to take their arms away.

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Social experiments by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 07:59 · Score: 0

East Germany, Poland, and a good chunk of Europe all revolted with little to no bloodshed.
Re:Social experiments by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:10 · Score: 0

Same way every other revolt has acquired weapons... isolate and overwhelm. Isolate a few police/guards/soldiers and overwhelm them with numbers. Or simply turn them to your side.
Re:Social experiments by ctilsie242 · 2019-01-23 08:11 · Score: 2

I do worry about that. A revolution where power changes hands completely may wind up making things worse. For example, Iran went from a Shah who was trying to get the country modernized into a theocracy.
The problem with violent revolutions is that the most brutal, bloodthirsty tyrants rise to the top. We saw that in the Iraqi power vacuum earlier this decade when the US pulled out. If the existing Chinese government completely collapses, there is a good chance we may get another Mao... who would not hesitate to nuke the West to give his people Lebensraum. Best thing we can hope for is more transparancy and democracy to actually happen, so Chinese laws don't "mysteriously" come into being from nowhere, but there is some public oversight before things happen.
Hopefully China can reform from within. They can do a lot of good in the world, and in some ways, have been bestowed the mantle of being the world's moral leadership.
Re:Social experiments by kaatochacha · 2019-01-23 10:02 · Score: 1

There's no meaningful difference difference between a pointy stick and a man-portable gun to a modern military with killer robots.
Indeed. A modern military with missiles, bombs, mines, guns, tanks, planes, drones, helicopters, satellites, ships, etc... would make mincemeat out of any rebellion with guns. Guns alone will get you nowhere these days. To overthrow a tyrannical government you need access to heavier weaponry and higher technology.
Your quote is like something teachers in the future will point to as the flawed thinking of governments after citing various guerrilla insurgencies.
Re:Social experiments by dunkelfalke · 2019-01-23 10:44 · Score: 1

Without guns? What are you talking about? Army caches were almost immediately plundered. How do you think the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan got so bloody? The conflicts in Transnistria, Georgia and several -stans were similar, but not quite on the same scale. Besides, don't underestimate the amount of firearms available to the general population - hunting licenses were common and easily obtained.

--
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re:Social experiments by dryeo · 2019-01-23 11:40 · Score: 1

As the AC above you says,

East Germany, Poland, and a good chunk of Europe all revolted with little to no bloodshed
Which is more what I was thinking of.
But you are right, often lots of hunting rifles, which are generally better in an armed revolt and government caches to raid, so some restrictions on firearm ownership don't matter when it comes to a revolt. Hand guns and such are more important for personal protection.

--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
Re:Social experiments by dunkelfalke · 2019-01-23 12:22 · Score: 1

Poland has been under martial law for several years, and as for us in the GDR, we were lucky because the Soviets essentially sold us to West Germany so it wasn't quite a real revolt in the first place.

--
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re:Social experiments by dryeo · 2019-01-23 12:31 · Score: 2

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Revolts often don't result in improvements and some people seem to like totalitarianism, as long as it is their totalitarianism.
I guess with the GDR, it was fallout from what was happening in the USSR.

--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

What would be the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:09 · Score: 1

So, there is someone, half a kilometer away from me, with a loan to their name.

Now that I know this, what am I supposed to do with this information?

Re:What would be the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:19 · Score: 0

So, there is someone, half a kilometer away from me, with a loan to their name.
Now that I know this, what am I supposed to do with this information?
Hand them a Dave Ramsey book, I guess.
Re:What would be the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:28 · Score: 0

There has to be some peculiar aspect of Chinese culture at play here. Or the translation confuses things.
Re:What would be the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:31 · Score: 1

I don't know what you are *supposed* to do with that information, but I know what people *will* do with it, human nature being what it is.
There will be bias against those people, sometimes conscious, sometimes subconscious. They will be treated as less trustworthy and will have a harder time doing things other people can do. It will impact their relations and interactions with others. Some may avoid them entirely.
No, none of that is rational, but people are not rational creatures.
Re:What would be the point? by zidium · 2019-01-23 06:02 · Score: 1

Over here in the U.S., my dad is literally the only person I know who has zero debt.

--
Slashdot Valentines Beta Massacre: iT WORKED! The boycotts killed Beta!!
Re:What would be the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:14 · Score: 1

I think the idea is that if you then see that person eating in a fancy restaurant, or buying a large screen tv, or gambling you are supposed to report them because they are supposed to be paying off their debt not having a life.
Re:What would be the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:23 · Score: 1

Same for myself and the wife here in the UK. People relish in spending on crap. I own little. I need little.
now i' debt free, I also give a portion of my wage that went to debt + interest to different charities.
It's a bit embarrassing sometimes when people have conversations about debt, or not being to afford a sandwich. I prey they do not ask me questions.
Re:What would be the point? by Oswald+McWeany · 2019-01-23 07:09 · Score: 1

Over here in the U.S., my dad is literally the only person I know who has zero debt.
I had zero debt until I got married. I lived completely within my means. I saved for a car before needing a new car and then bought with cash... I was saving up for a house whilst living in an apartment. Over half my income went into savings. Didn't last long into marriage... 20 years later I look at my bills and weep.

--
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Re:What would be the point? by slipped_bit · 2019-01-23 07:09 · Score: 1

Most of the people I know who are debt-free and live below their means tend to be pretty low-profile.
Re:What would be the point? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:47 · Score: 0

It's supposed to be "social credit score debet" which includes but is not limited to financial debt.
And knowing that somone with a low score in nearby you're supposed to avoid that person. It's basically a like a Black Mirror LARP played by matrix rules (die in the game die in real life).
Re:What would be the point? by kaatochacha · 2019-01-23 10:06 · Score: 1

The house does it. Without my home, I'd be totally debt free. The tax credit alone are enough to push you down that road.

Positives by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:10 · Score: 0

Could come in handy and avoid being tricked by someone nefarious. There are positives, right?

Well, I "own" a house by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:11 · Score: 0

I mean technically it owns me, but I guess this app covers unsecured debt. We already have an app for that, it's called "using Apple products".

How does this work? by Roger+W+Moore · 2019-01-23 05:11 · Score: 1

Why would anyone in debt or who misbehaves on public transport sign up for this app? I suspect all it will show is lots of wealthy, well-behaving people because they will be the only ones who use it.

Re:How does this work? by sinij · 2019-01-23 05:13 · Score: 1

From what I heard, a lot of apps are mandatory in China. That is, police could check your phone and you better have it installed.
Re:How does this work? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:27 · Score: 1

I think the app will detect and identify the people around, and check their credit score. The indebted won't need to install the app, only be carrying a phone.
captcha : repress
Re:How does this work? by zidium · 2019-01-23 06:03 · Score: 1

It probably comes pre-bundled.

--
Slashdot Valentines Beta Massacre: iT WORKED! The boycotts killed Beta!!

What a great idea by whitroth · 2019-01-23 05:12 · Score: 3, Insightful

So, any thieves can and will use it to find people who *aren't* in debt, and mug or burgle them, since they'll have more money.

Re:What a great idea by CanadianMacFan · 2019-01-23 05:49 · Score: 2

But they could be in debt because they bought the latest iteration of a smartphone from any manufacturer and that would be worth stealing.
Re:What a great idea by Solandri · 2019-01-23 06:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

Debt and net worth are very different. 7 years ago I had no debt. Today I have several hundred thousand dollars in debt because I bought a house with a mortgage. But my net worth has increased because my home value has appreciated (by more than the amount of my mortgage) since I bought it.

If properly managed, debt isn't a bad thing, and can in fact be good. It allows you to buy things sooner than you would be able to otherwise. In my case if I had waited to save up enough to buy my house for cash, during the time I waited its price would've increased by more than the amount of debt I took on buying it immediately with a mortgage. So I actually saved money by going into debt. I only retain the debt because shedding it wold require me to liquidate the house, leaving me with no place to live, forcing me to buy a new house at today's prices and interest rates, which would actually be more expensive than keeping my current house.

In fact, the way credit ratings work, I would say the people with more debt are more likely to have more money. Banks won't lend to people with poor financial management skills and thus poor credit. So those people who tend to live paycheck-to-paycheck with little cash on hand end up having less debt. OTOH if someone has $10 million in debt, then his house is probably chock full of expensive items worth burgling. On the flip side, he is more likely to have security cameras and can hire a good lawyer to prosecute you if you're caught. So maybe the small fish with little debt are indeed better targets for a thief.
Re:What a great idea by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:56 · Score: 0

Rationalize living beyond your means however you need to.
Re:What a great idea by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 07:03 · Score: 0

Wrong! Your net worth is still negative. You don't own your house!
Your net value will jump up when you pay your house in full, but at the moment you don't own it, if you have a mortgage. Only if you have enough liquid money to pay your remaining mortgage in full you can claim that your net value is non-zero.
Don't believe me - stop making payments, the bank will take your house away, and all the money you have paid until this moment are gone, like you have paid rent.
Re:What a great idea by ewibble · 2019-01-23 07:43 · Score: 1

It really depends what the debt is for, buying an asset that appreciates in value like a house sure, invest in a business that is going fine, education that is going to earn you more money in the long run why not. Buying the latest shinny gadget, taking a holiday, getting a car, (take public transport usually cheaper than maintaining a car). Even buying a house that is excessive to your needs.
Net worth is not everything either, if you are living paycheck to paycheck because you are paying of your mortgage for the rest of you life, that is not a good way to live.
Re:What a great idea by Rick+Schumann · 2019-01-23 07:48 · Score: 1

Worse: any criminals can use it to target people in debt, with scams, blackmail them into committing crimes, etc etc etc
Re:What a great idea by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:04 · Score: 0

Uh, no. As a rule, those in China save. They save so much that it's really abnormal to be in debt in city. So, there's no real need to use some device to figure out who to rob. The question is if you can successfully do it because they probably have most of it in a bank or similar.
Re:What a great idea by HornWumpus · 2019-01-23 08:26 · Score: 1

How can you be so sure of yourself and so wrong?
Foreclosure is a shitty way to cash out your equity, you're much better off selling. But you're just wrong about it being gone, by definition.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:What a great idea by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:31 · Score: 0

It really depends what the debt is for, buying an asset that appreciates in value like a house sure, invest in a business that is going fine, education that is going to earn you more money in the long run why not. Buying the latest shinny gadget, taking a holiday, getting a car, (take public transport usually cheaper than maintaining a car). Even buying a house that is excessive to your needs.
Net worth is not everything either, if you are living paycheck to paycheck because you are paying of your mortgage for the rest of you life, that is not a good way to live.
In most places in America a car is a necessity, and public transportation is the luxury. When your work is 30 miles away and the nearest bus stop is 47 miles away in the opposite direction, and you'd be the only one, maybe 4 at the most, riding it, public transportation cannot make sense in this situation.
So in this situation it's go into debt to buy a car(if you can't outright afford one), or starve to death.
Re:What a great idea by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 09:12 · Score: 0

Depends. In most countries on the planet when you default on a load, foreclosure is not an option. Also you can't initiate a sell on something you don't own, it is outright criminal offense. So what may work in US is not working in other places.
Ask the people in Hungary and Poland what happened to them circa 2007 who found out that the homes they "bought" were just rented if you default on the loans. You could of course semi-legally promise to transfer ownership of a future property to another person if they loan you the money to buy out your mortgage in full, but almost no-one was willing to do something so risky. That is sharking at its best.
Re:What a great idea by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 10:09 · Score: 0

Ah, yes, the old "in Hungary and Poland" argument. works every time...
Re:What a great idea by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 14:16 · Score: 0

That's not living beyond your means. Living beyond your means is taking on debts that you cannot cover. Taking on debts that you can cover as leverage for investment is living within your means and using those means wisely.
Large Mortgages require a steady job with confidence you won't lose it (and a little extra money to be able to bridge yourself if you do until you can sell the house and downsize). Credit card debt should basically only be used if you can pay in full before any interest charges happened -- by definiton, living within your means -- at which point they are usually the wisest way to pay for things, unless somebody will give you a discount for cash-only purchases that exceed credit card rewards.
But besides all that, somebody who is living beyond their means is *also* a better burglary target than somebody living frugally, because they're carrying more expensive shit on average, so his point still stands even with an unwise person in debt.
Re:What a great idea by jezwel · 2019-01-23 15:09 · Score: 1

Wrong! Your net worth is still negative. You don't own your house! Your net value will jump up when you pay your house in full, but at the moment you don't own it, if you have a mortgage. Only if you have enough liquid money to pay your remaining mortgage in full you can claim that your net value is non-zero. Don't believe me - stop making payments, the bank will take your house away, and all the money you have paid until this moment are gone, like you have paid rent.
The bank may foreclose and sell the house, and any excess money after paying down the mortgage is your to keep - the bank can't keep it as they are creditors to only a certain amount.
Now, since the bank doesn't care about getting any excess and just wants its debt paid off, they'll do a quick sale that recovers as much of the debt as possible. If you lose out a chunk of equity then it's too bad for you.
Of course, you might live in a backwards country where you don't receive the excess, but I can't do anything about that for you.
Re:What a great idea by twosat · 2019-01-23 23:19 · Score: 1

Reminds me of this saying: If you owe the bank $10,000 and can't repay, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $10 million dollars and can't repay, the bank has a problem.
Re:What a great idea by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-24 09:36 · Score: 0

Like the UK

Re:1984? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:18 · Score: 5, Funny

My friend, if furries have a direct and measurable impact on your life, that's far more on you than them.

never goung to happen in th US by houghi · 2019-01-23 05:21 · Score: 1

That thing would go ding-ding-ding till the batteries are dead.

--
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.

So in China or the US by presidenteloco · 2019-01-23 05:22 · Score: 1

The system would be raising the alarm everytime you came near a US person, since each one is in debt USD$ 62,034 as their per capita share of the national debt.

That could get noisy fast.

--

Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?

Re:So in China or the US by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:29 · Score: 0

That's less than year's income for me... while it would cause some amount of hardship for a few months, does that mean that if I can afford to pay that share of the debt all at once, does that mean I don't have to pay taxes anymore? Because that would be totally worth it.
Re:So in China or the US by Oswald+McWeany · 2019-01-23 06:56 · Score: 1

That's less than year's income for me... while it would cause some amount of hardship for a few months, does that mean that if I can afford to pay that share of the debt all at once, does that mean I don't have to pay taxes anymore? Because that would be totally worth it.
I know you're joking... but say everyone who COULD pay back their share of the debt decided to do so by living frugally for a year buying only actual necessities to put aside $62k to pay back their share of the debt... what that would do is... cause more debt.
If people stopped buying goods and using services to pay back the national debt, the national economy would slow down because the taxes from those goods and services would not go to the government, so they would have to borrow even more money to finance the budget.
.

--
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Re:So in China or the US by ewibble · 2019-01-23 07:17 · Score: 1

A bit of round about logic, yes the tax take would be lower, but the reason we are in debt is that we spend (consume) more than we produce, the solution consume less, yes we could also produce more stuff that we really don't and sell it to other countries that really don't need it either, but there are environmental impacts to that. I could pay off my portion of national debt out of savings, however I would never do it because all that would happen is politicians would say look we have no debt we could borrow and build a new stadium, overpriced piece of art or other unnecessary thing.
Re:So in China or the US by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 14:06 · Score: 0

Not entirely. When you consume more, the production side can hit economies of scale and become more efficient. An economy of increased consumption *can* (not always is, but *can*) cause increased production in a virtuous cycle.
Moreover though, government revenues are based on consumption. If you don't consume, the government doesn't get revenues. But that doesn't mean that the government consumption decreases.
The thing is, you'd have to pay the national debt *and* the future debts incurred by all future projects of the government. Because your taxes aren't just for paying for the debt. They are for paying off current expenses too.

Unclean! by cascadingstylesheet · 2019-01-23 05:23 · Score: 2

Unclean! Unclean!

Re:Unclean! by Ichijo · 2019-01-23 05:56 · Score: 2

Indeed, an app like this that notifies you when you're near an unvaccinated person would be useful.

--
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
Re:Unclean! by sheramil · 2019-01-23 12:28 · Score: 1

I see a need. Different alerts for vegans, sociopaths, violent alcoholics, people with eleven twitter or facebook accounts, people who post to 4chan's /pol/ forum, PETA members, religious fundamentalists of any stripe, emacs users, vi users.. the hard part would be coming up with different audio alerts for each one.

Re:1984? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:24 · Score: 0

Then we'll make one for incels like yourself. The alert will be someone saying "Hey look everyone! Point and laugh at that incel cuck!"

The "Like" button run amok by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:24 · Score: 1

China's "social credit score" plays on the dopamine dynamic than makes people in the west make their lives look better than they are to get those "likes" coming in. And on the flip side, it lets china 'unperson" you, if you have said something unflattering about the party, or you are known to hold the "wrong" opinions. Not just that you can be prevented from traveling or sending your children to good schools, but you may be socially shunned by others. That is such a powerful de-motivating factor that people will conform to what is expected, to avoid it. See also Black Mirror. I even see a minor version of that in the workplace. An idea is obviously being raised by management simply "for image", but no one dares speak up, because they do not want to be hammered back down or go against group-think.

Do not under-estimate how much levering the mechanisms of social dynamics can be used to control a population. This kind of lever has existed before, but never on the scale and scope that we have now, when everyone can be under constant surveillance. We here in the west are behind China in using those levers of social control, but ahead in building them. We are moving in the wrong direction of our own volition.

Sounds like... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:24 · Score: 0

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5497778/

You forgot by presidenteloco · 2019-01-23 05:25 · Score: 0

MAGAts (short form of MAGA ass-hats)

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Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?

Re:You forgot by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:49 · Score: 1

MAGAts (short form of MAGA ass-hats)
Hillary, go back to the woods. Please.

Renounce and repudiate! by b0s0z0ku · 2019-01-23 05:25 · Score: 1

But it's only about $2500 to renounce one's citizenship, and nothing else due for net worth under $600k or so. So renouncing one's citizenship has a positive return on investment for many people.

Re:Renounce and repudiate! by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2019-01-23 05:37 · Score: 2

But it's only about $2500 to renounce one's citizenship, and nothing else due for net worth under $600k or so. So renouncing one's citizenship has a positive return on investment for many people.
While I get where you are coming from, such as no more US tax on all income, you can still face a tax liability upon exits. Further complicating the issue is if you've been a dual citizen by birth but never paid US taxes because yo never lived in the US or only recently found out you are a dual citizen; you could face tax compliance issues. Finally, returning to the US can be more difficult as yo uno longer are a citizen and thus must meet visa requirements, etc.

--
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Re:Renounce and repudiate! by b0s0z0ku · 2019-01-23 05:46 · Score: 1

You're assuming that returning to the US is such a great thing.
Re:Renounce and repudiate! by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:04 · Score: 0

Wouldn't trade it for the world. :)
Most valuable and sought after citizenship.
Re:Renounce and repudiate! by b0s0z0ku · 2019-01-23 06:06 · Score: 1

Most of the EU is essentially equal to the US at this point... https://www.passportindex.org/...
Re:Renounce and repudiate! by HornWumpus · 2019-01-23 08:19 · Score: 1

Dual citizen!
Neener neener.

--
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Re:Renounce and repudiate! by ShanghaiBill · 2019-01-23 12:14 · Score: 1

The smart time to renounce citizenship is as soon as you graduate from college. You have near zero net worth, and likely are in debt. But you have plenty of earning potential.
Returning to the US is not a big problem if you establish your new citizenship in a country with a visa agreement. Eduardo Saverin, co-founder of Facebook, chose Singapore, which has a visa waiver agreement with America. He can travel back-and-forth at will.

Cool! by Locke2005 · 2019-01-23 05:27 · Score: 1

So Black Mirror's "Nosedive" episode is real now? I can't wait!

--
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.

Re:Cool! by Spritzer · 2019-01-23 05:28 · Score: 2

Or The Orville's "Majority Rule" https://orville.fandom.com/wik...

not that kind of debt by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:29 · Score: 0

I think the point is more that you are near someone the state doesn't like. Social debt is a bit of a foreign concept here.

If it seems like people are shunning you like out of a bad dystopian scifi epic. That is more of the point. Get right with the state or very disturbing things are going to start happening.

This is part of a larger game by Headw1nd · 2019-01-23 05:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

China has seemingly made a policy of enforcing social shaming and isolation by using surveillance to make the effects transmissible by proximity, i.e. you go to a place undesirables live or hang out, or talk to or even sell things to undesirables, you become an undesirable yourself. Some reports suggest that this policy has been used to great effect in Xinjiang, leading to a situation where the population is so afraid of being blacklisted they will shun anyone they even think might be out of the government's favor. I suspect there is a similar aim with this, and that its true purpose is not to you know you are around debtors, but to remind you that the government knows you are around debtors. Hang out with them too much and your own credit may start to go down.

Re:This is part of a larger game by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:52 · Score: 1

Not quite. This is the consequence of what happens when your country doesn't have any personal bankruptcy laws. (Which china does not)
It's possible in china to rack up a ton of personal debt with no intention of paying it back, and there is very little recourse that a lender can take to get it back from you.
So they're going that ol' confucian route of ccp-endorsed public shaming to get people to pay up who have the means to pay up, but are consciously choosing not to and are instead flouting their debt. After all, people forget that outside of Beijing and Shanghai most of china basically still exists in the 15th century, including most of their legal system.
Re:This is part of a larger game by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:52 · Score: 0

>China has seemingly made a policy of enforcing social shaming and isolation
Oh you mean like what they do to catholics in the united states? if they even so much as smile it's a national incident followed by death threats.
Re:This is part of a larger game by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 07:13 · Score: 0

a policy of enforcing social shaming and isolation by using surveillance to make the effects transmissible by proximity, i.e. you go to a place undesirables live or hang out, or talk to or even sell things to undesirables, you become an undesirable yourself.
Are they learning from "progressives" in the USA, or are the "progressives" in the USA learning that from the Chinese?
Re:This is part of a larger game by Rick+Schumann · 2019-01-23 07:49 · Score: 1

Anything to keep Chinese citizens under the thumb of The Party 24/7, cradle-to-grave. Can't raise good little automatons if you allow them to think for a moment that they have anything like Free Will.
Re:This is part of a larger game by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:55 · Score: 0

Also possibly to reduce the paranoia and make the system more sustainable as you can expect your phone to warn you if you are around actual "undesirables" so you don't have to jump at ever shadow of undesirability you think your see.
Re:This is part of a larger game by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 10:14 · Score: 0

oh, I thought you were referring to two senators badgering a court nominee for belonging to a catholic church social group.
Seems to be going around....
Re:This is part of a larger game by EvilSS · 2019-01-23 10:42 · Score: 1

China has seemingly made a policy of enforcing social shaming and isolation by using surveillance

Seems expensive. They use just use Twitter and Facebook to do that, like we do in the west.

--
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.

Could this end the new housing bubble? by damn_registrars · 2019-01-23 05:30 · Score: 1, Interesting

I know this is being implemented in China as part of their system, but something like this could potentially be valuable at bringing an end to our current housing bubble. Too many people spend a lot of time drinking the kool-aid that is served up 24/7 on HGTV (and other Realtor advertising networks) and have allowed themselves to fall back into the broken thinking of houses being good investments. I would support damned near anything that would wake people out of this stupor. In the current situation going forward, the only people who will make money off of the purchase and sale of houses are the realtors and the bankers - regular people (or "homeowners") can only lose.

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Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.

Re:Could this end the new housing bubble? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:21 · Score: 1

I disagree. Owning a home is a viable option if you can afford the mortgage payment long-term. It's far better than the alternatives of living on the street (i.e. not something that is good for one's long-term health) or renting (i.e. paying for someone else's mortgage but not your own). However, owning a house isn't for everyone. You have to have a certain minimum level of financial liquidity before owning a home makes sense.
The trick is timing it to get a house a year or two after hitting the bottom of a bubble burst (i.e. when people who planned poorly in life are forced to sell). That way the interest rates are kept fairly low. You also have to be able to cover up to 30% of the purchase price of the house in case you lose your job so as to not miss any mortgage payments. That said, owning a house is a better deal than the other options. In general, you keep whatever principle you put into the mortgage (and lose x 3 whatever you put into the interest end of the equation). Repairs and renovations are loss leaders that MAY improve the home's value but owning a house is supposed to be a long-term investment for your own enjoyment NOT something you do for profit. So, the general rule of thumb is to buy the amount of house you need and can maximize the use of that requires the fewest structural changes and then take care of it and enjoy it for many years to come.
The best option for home ownership is to pay off as much principle as possible on the house as quickly as possible without going too aggressively for the "just in case" scenario (e.g. losing a job, getting injured, etc). It can be a tricky balancing act and your income should far exceed the mortgage payment so you can pay it down faster (e.g. turn a 30 year loan into 10). I tend to err on the side of caution and, while I could actually pay the entire mortgage off today on my own house, I won't do that as that carries too much risk and is actually detrimental from both the short- and long-term financial health perspectives.
Re:Could this end the new housing bubble? by DigiShaman · 2019-01-23 07:37 · Score: 2

Are you talking about China, or in the rest of Western nations? See, in China, the state massively builds residential space (including entire ghost cities) that they artificially restrict what's on the market so as to not deflate prices. Artificial scarcity is exceedingly effective at generating maximum revenue, and still having enough inventory left to hold a large market share. But when the government calls the shots, no one else is available to blink.

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Blackmail opportunities by amorsen · 2019-01-23 05:32 · Score: 1

So the app triggers on someone, you go to them, you threaten to report that they were spending money on frivolous things...

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Re:Blackmail opportunities by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:14 · Score: 0

Report to whom? Everyone else can use the app too.

In completely unrelated news by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:34 · Score: 0

Suicide rates in China jump to 6 out of 10 people

Re:In completely unrelated news by Oswald+McWeany · 2019-01-23 07:12 · Score: 1

Suicide rates in China jump to 6 out of 10 people
They're developing an app to notify you when you come with 100ft of someone who attempted suicide.

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Re:In completely unrelated news by sheramil · 2019-01-23 12:31 · Score: 1

Or someone who, according to their phone's accelerometer, is currently in the process of committing suicide. The alert is the Wilhelm Scream.

Re: China heading for the Great W^HFa!! by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:35 · Score: 0

And why would it matter if someone had debt unless you wanted money?

Re: China heading for the Great W^HFa!! by Potor · 2019-01-23 05:41 · Score: 1

It's called shame, and it's designed to modify behaviour. Consider it an extreme version of nudge theory.

Criminal Record by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:46 · Score: 0

I might like to be notified when there are known criminals and how near they are. Being able to specify types/time(when) might be useful.
Thinking I would like that feature.. I can maybe understand how people with their act together(no debt) might want to avoid those that don't...
Then again... How about a warning about people nearby with low/high IQ levels, and you can set your range. Maybe that should be affixed to foreheads .

Re: Criminal Record by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:56 · Score: 0

So you think treating people who have made bad choices like complete pariahs is somehow going to make the situation better?
The mind boggles...

Poverty is NOT a vice by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:50 · Score: 0

I loathe China more and more every day.

Since China itself is in debt... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:51 · Score: 0

Wouldn't this just go off every waking moment while in the country?

Is debt contagious? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 05:53 · Score: 0

Actually, here in the US debt is considered a sign of prosperity.

Welcome to by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 06:03 · Score: 0

your dystopian cyberpunk future.

I've seen this Doctor Who episode... by Matheus · 2019-01-23 06:18 · Score: 1

...this season! It was a pretty good one too.

#WhatCouldPossiblyGoWrong

Why? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 07:05 · Score: 0

I don't really get the point of the app. I know they have this social credit system going but if you couldn't pay your debts before, shame isn't going to change that. I'm sure the social credit system already calculated your current social score taking debt into consideration and unless there's some net benefit to me why would I really care if there's someone in debt beside me? Maybe if there was some bounty on them and I get a fee for bringing them in then it's worth my time, otherwise it's just something you know about someone else that you don't really care about

Re: WAT? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 07:22 · Score: 0

Stop smoking crack.

China is an authoritarian SHITHOLE.

The US is a free but moral SHITHOLE.

One will alqays be better than the othet, you fucking chink goof.

Black Mirror by Only+Time+Will+Tell · 2019-01-23 07:29 · Score: 1

Seems like this is straight out of a dystopian future piece of fiction. Perhaps everyone can wear a collar displaying their social score or bank account amount for all to see. I wonder how many loose threads, when tugged, will unravel the Chinese social fabric and threaten the government's longevity.

Soviet Russia and Gulag by kaur · 2019-01-23 07:53 · Score: 1

Not fiction, not history.
This has happened before and probably many times.

I am currently reading "The Gulag Archipelago" by Solzhenitsyn, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....
It describes the regime and atmosphere in Soviet Russia before and after World War II. The setting is eerily similar. People are afraid to talk to each other from the fear that they might get wrong "connections". Anybody can be working for the secret police, your best friends or closest relatives cannot be trusted, you must assume at all times that every person you meet or talk to will "betray" you in some ridiculous but fatal way.

If you have read narratives about Germany before WWII, then the feeling is similar.

Great empires have been built on fear.
They have all fallen - so far.
We will see what will become of this one.

Re:Soviet Russia and Gulag by ctilsie242 · 2019-01-23 10:37 · Score: 1

This also has echos of East Germany and the fear of winding up on the wrong side of the Stasi. Guilt by association, and know too many "guilty" parties, and there would be a knock on the door.

What's Oxford Street got to do with anything? by shabble · 2019-01-23 07:53 · Score: 1

It's like being on Oxford Street and being able to work out everyone around you who was in debt. According to the financial charity, the Money Charity, the average UK household debt (including mortgages) was $76,000, in June last year. That's a lot of notifications.

Because everyone, or even the majority, of people on Oxford street would be 'average' and 'from the UK,' instead of, say, those who work in the City, or tourists?

Money Charity clearly shroud-waving here...

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Nudge? Oy. by fyngyrz · 2019-01-23 08:12 · Score: 1

I consider it one of the modern versions of stocks.

And to be clear, I don't think this is a good thing at all.

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Re: Nudge? Oy. by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 10:55 · Score: 0

It's sort of dumb.
"Hey! Look at this homo! He has a house and a car!"
Uh....ok?
Re:Nudge? Oy. by ShanghaiBill · 2019-01-23 11:56 · Score: 1

Personal debt is much less common in China than in America or the UK, and it is considered more shameful. People usually pay cash for cars, and many own their houses out-right, with no mortgage. It is even harder to get a mortgage for a 2nd home.
Most Chinese don't even have credit card debt. Their mobile payments system, which is nearly universally used, is based on direct debit, not credit.
Before you can marry a Chinese girl, her family will run a credit check. If you are in debt, you are going to be a genetic dead end, along with the other 30 million surplus single men.
Re: Nudge? Oy. by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 22:59 · Score: 0

So youâ(TM)re saying we should figure out a way to make debt more common in China?

Why can't we have a system like that in the US? by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:38 · Score: 0

A social credit system would help things immensely in the US. First, it would deal with trolls by immediate and directly stopping that. It would also deal with rudeness, both in-your-face and passive aggressive stuff.

If our society is to survive as a whole, stuff like this is needed. Yes, it has shades of Black Mirror, but it does work, and it makes life livable for everyone.

Re:Why can't we have a system like that in the US? by kaatochacha · 2019-01-23 10:24 · Score: 1

"The social credit system has parsed your posting, and determined that it's detrimental to the general well-being of society.
Your social score has been lowered ten points, and will continue to drop should you persist in unhelpful actions. See https://www.socialcredit.com/s... for assistance on how to avoid this in the future.
Please try to be more kind and attentive int he future. This is an automated message"

Lost in translation by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 08:59 · Score: 0

Debt here probably mean owning delinquent accounts.

Won't people just borrow from loan sharks? by rsilvergun · 2019-01-23 09:05 · Score: 1

e.g. the Mafia and the like?

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Social Credit derivatives market? by edi_guy · 2019-01-23 10:10 · Score: 2

I hope they find a loophole where social credit can be bought, sold, leased...then you can have derivatives, then you can speculate on a person, a group, a whole region of people. That would make The Chicago Merc look tame.

Control of the masses by robot5x · 2019-01-23 10:22 · Score: 1

All the comments on here debating whether debt is 'good' or 'bad' or not, are totally missing the point. The point is that this system allows the Chinese government to set social norms, 'moral goals' and whatever else they want remotely - across the whole population - very easily.

Sure this example is about debt. But if this is 'successful' (however the hell they measure that), why don't we trigger notifications when you're passing a homosexual, an immigrant, or ... I don't know ... an actual Muslim , if you can imagine such an atrocity.

This system lets the government decide what is good, and what is bad. I have absolutely no idea why the Chinese population have simply rolled over and let this happen - what they're doing there is arguably worse than some of the 'regimes' that the West have felt compelled to invade.

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Hej! Nasi tu byli!

Ya Taliban ain't shit by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 12:46 · Score: 0

That's why we liberated and left Afghanistan 6 months after we invaded. Imagine if that war had lasted 15 or 20 YEARS... ... ...

Does it still count as porn... by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-23 15:15 · Score: 0

If the Pope was watching an Arch Bishop ream an altarboy in the Vatican in person? :)

In this comment section: Credulous dinguses by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-24 03:22 · Score: 0

In this comment section: Credulous dinguses who will believe anything written about an 'enemy' government. Have you all already forgotten the last ninety articles about this system that have been walked back and exposed as blatantly false propaganda to play up how dangerous and evil the Chinese government are? And how meek and in need of rescuing the Chinese people are?

Just you wait, once the US manages to bankroll the right people you'll be seeing the exact same moves that are being made in Venezuela today starting in China, and you'll fall for it then, too.

Here's the Ignorant One! by Anonymous Coward · 2019-01-24 05:57 · Score: 0

This is almost certainly a particular type of Second Amendment American. One who thinks they know everything, and thus winds up knowing nothing.

Civil wars are about power groups fighting each other. Those power groups are frequently already armed, already part of "the tyranny of government", and seek to establish control of that government for themselves.

But what if they aren't part of established power groups? Then they acquire weapons, which is actually rather easy.

Humanity has never had a problem involving itself in conflict, arming itself, and waging war. And most rebel leaders, having won against a despot, then go on to become the new despot in turn.

You start from the wrong premise, wind up arguing about relatively unimportant issues, and arrive at an irrelevant conclusion.

He/she who dies with the most debt wins! by presidenteloco · 2019-01-28 11:28 · Score: 1

You can't fool all of the people all of the time,
but you can fool most of the people most of the time.
- D. H. Trump

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Slashdot Mirror

Hebei, a Northern Chinese Province, Unveils an App That Triggers a Notification When You're Near Someone in Debt (standard.co.uk)

182 comments