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What Can We Learn From The Retraction of the Mediterranean Diet Study? (vox.com)

Remember that landmark 2013 study that found that people on a Mediterranean diet had a 30% lower chance of heart attack, stroke, or death from cardiovascular disease than people on low-fat diets? An anonymous reader quotes Vox: Last June, the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine pulled the original paper from the record, issuing a rare retraction. It also republished a new version [of the PREDIMED study] based on a reanalysis of the data that accounted for the missteps... But after spending several days talking with some of the brightest minds in nutrition research and epidemiology, I now feel the PREDIMED retraction is actually cause for hope -- maybe even a new beginning for the field.

Yes, studies with big flaws pass peer review and make it into high-impact journals, but the record can eventually be corrected because of skeptical researchers questioning things. It's science working as it should, and the PREDIMED takedown is a wonderful example of that. This process should bring us a step closer to what really matters: informing people who want to know how to eat for a healthy life.

114 comments

  1. What we should learn is not to trust studies. by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You should go on systemic reviews published in high impact factor journals.

    The reason is that the world is complex. When you look at it, even if your technique is flawless (which it won't be), you will find contradictory evidence. If you look back at landmark studies that have stood the test of time, you will just about always find procedural or analytical flaws that invalidate their conclusions. Note very carefully here: an invalid conclusion is not the same as an *untrue* one.

    The moment of scientific discovery has immense romantic appeal, but it's only the start of a long process in which that discovery is repeatedly knocked down and then propped back up again. What a systemic review paper does is go back over the *entire* chain of contradictory findings and sum up the state of the evidence.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  2. How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Any/all of Ancel Keys politically motivated bullshit studies? Let's retract his work and refigure our policy priorities in line with real science. Oh wait, can't do that and admit that 40+ years of food policy was wrong...

  3. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywhe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    shut the fuck up, nerd

  4. Re:What can we learn? There is fake news everywher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We can learn that if you really want to benefit from the Mediterranean diet, be Mediterranean.

  5. The Imaginary Mediterranean Diet ... by kbahey · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One thing that irks me, is that the Mediterranean Diet claims that it is based on what people of that area eat.

    Well, I am from the Mediterranean (Alexandria, Egypt), and I have to tell you that this diet is not based on reality. If anything, it is highly selective.

    Yes, olive oil, nuts, pulses and fruit are part of the diet. But there is also all sorts of chicken, duck, doves, beef, lamb, and fish, mostly cooked in clarified butter (almost the same as the ghee of India).

    If you look at Italy, Greece, Turkey, Southern France, and Spain, their cuisine has those claimed magical components, but also plenty of animal products (lamb, beef, pork, goat, rabbit, duck) and animal fat (lard, sheep fat).

    And you find the same magical ingredients in countries far away from the Mediterranean, such as Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, ...etc. Lots of nuts, raisins, lentils, beans, and fruit.

    So, this Mediterranean diet is imaginary at best, regardless of whether it works or not.

    1. Re: The Imaginary Mediterranean Diet ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The diet study was, ludicrously, done during lent. Hence the lack of meat etc

    2. Re: The Imaginary Mediterranean Diet ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was not a mistake. It was in keeping with the methods of the father of modern politically performed food "science" - Ancel Keys.

    3. Re:The Imaginary Mediterranean Diet ... by Lanthanide · · Score: 1

      It's based on what people ate in the 40s and 50s.

      So are you comparing to modern diets or those from decades ago?

    4. Re:The Imaginary Mediterranean Diet ... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The 1940s and 1950s for that part of Europe was not a good place for food.
      With war, poverty, the Greek Civil War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      What oil was used for cooking, was it heated?
      Cardiovascular disease, cancer, life expectancy vs northern Europe and North America?
      What food was for export, what was imported, what did the US Marshall Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... do to food?
      Rationing in the United Kingdom after WW2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      Note when sugar and confectionery rationing ended in the UK.
      Was it a good time to do a food study?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:The Imaginary Mediterranean Diet ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it isn't, it is supposedly based on what the general population ate regularly to provide such long healthy lives. IF it was based purely on 40's and 50's then it was a massive con right from the start as this was a low point for the region due to war.

    6. Re: The Imaginary Mediterranean Diet ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It definitely isn't. I am from southern Bulgaria. Our cuisine is essentially the same as Greek, Turkish and middle eastern.
      I have a cook book from 1880s. More than 60% of the dishes are heavy on animal fat and organ meats. Also heavy on green leafy vegetables and fermented food.
      Guess what they are not heavy on - starches, simple carbs and sugars. Practically no preservatives besides salt and lye. Fruits are only seasonal, as well as all vegetables.

    7. Re:The Imaginary Mediterranean Diet ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you eat more fish you'll get fewer bullet holes. Come on, this is science here...

  6. Doctors can't even agree on what we're supposed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to EAT three times a day.

    But let's trust them anyways.

    1. Re:Doctors can't even agree on what we're supposed by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Doctors don't get much training in nutrition, and they've forgotten most of it by the time they graduate.

      Heck, most nutritionists and dieticians don't keep up-to-date on advances in their field. Most will tell you that everyone can get optimum nutrition from consuming nothing but food (i.e. no supplements), which is quite untrue. (Note, I said "optimum", not "adequate".)

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    2. Re:Doctors can't even agree on what we're supposed by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

      Depends a lot on a lot of things. But the only ones I'm aware of, given reasonably good soil and access to modern first-world supermarkets, would be D (comes mainly from sun, not food), and B12 (which becomes more difficult to absorb as a person ages). Where I live, iodide is required by most people also, as is vitamin C since fresh fruits are much more expensive and most people don't eat enough of. Am I missing any others?

  7. What's good for you today is bad for you tomorrow by olsmeister · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't even pay attention anymore. Just use common sense and you'll be farther ahead than you would be chasing whatever the current recommendations are.

  8. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    specialty engineered food

    Yep, those Hostess HoHos really hit the spot.

  9. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywhe by Seewhatidonehere · · Score: 0

    Definition of science: " Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. " Studies of current dieting fads should not be concerned at all as science. Correct diet is based on INDIVIDUAL needs of a person, that person's lifestyle and circumstances. No universal law can be applied to diet that would be as good for one person as to the other, aside from the fact that we NEED to eat to stay alive and we already know that without any science needing to get involved. So get these fake scientists off here and send them to the holistic section of the filing cabinet..

  10. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck you you filthy mouthed creature

  11. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywhe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Fake News" is a terrible term. The correct term would be "misinformation" and all sides do it.

    When people define themselves by what they "hate" their is little chance of actually solving the problems we face. Rallies and marches do not solve problems thy only amplify the discord between those holding and supporting differing views. There are just too many people who think "Well I read it on the Internet so it must be true!"

    What we are dealing with today fits the description of "Yellow Journalism".

    "Yellow journalism and the yellow press are American terms for journalism and associated newspapers and media that present little or no legitimate well-researched news while instead using eye-catching headlines for increased sales. Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism. "

  12. Re:Don't eat any food that is white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Racist.

  13. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and peanut M&Ms

  14. the foods that make me feel best are by FudRucker · · Score: 1, Interesting

    mostly cereals & vegetables with just a little bit of meat, and not raw vegetables because they can be hard to digest, i like them gently sauteed, i dont stick with any particular diet and just pay attention to my insides and what makes me comfortable and happy when it comes to foods, i stick with fresh fruit & veggies, sometimes frozen, but almost never veggies in a tin can

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:the foods that make me feel best are by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Keep us informed.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  15. Two steps forward, one step back by enrique556 · · Score: 1

    Diets have improved out of sight since my grandparents were young. Science can and does get things hilariously wrong, but on average, the correct ideas outlast the incorrect ones, if only on account of them being stronger memes. Scientific method should be seen as an accelerator for natural selection of beneficial memes; we're still nowehere clever enough to do this stuff without 95% of it being empirical study / trial and error.

  16. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everyw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    eat my ass and suck my balls, fool

  17. god bless the microbiome by epine · · Score: 5, Informative

    Use common sense when you choose things you put into your body.

    Good lord, welcome to the middle ages.

    Is it common sense that the fructose half of sucrose is metabolized in the liver by much the same pathway that processes ethanol (which if abused, in either case, contributes to fatty liver disease)?

    No, it is not.

    Is it common sense that the pancreas contains a melatonin receptor, so that your metabolic response to carbohydrates varies throughout the day?

    Is it common sense that ulcers are mainly caused by Heliobacter pylori?

    Is the effect of Toxoplasma gondii on motorcyclist and mouse behaviour common sense?

    Is it common sense that fecal microbiota transplants would prove more effective in treating C. difficile than vancomycin?

    Is it common sense that wholesome fresh fish potentially contains toxic levels of methyl mercury that bio-accumulate in adipose tissues?

    Is it common sense that the high-productivity crops introduced during the agricultural revolution (not yet using GMO breeding techniques) remain as nutritious as the original heirloom crops?

    (Besides, that was a trick question. There were three separate agricultural revolutions as human population exploded, so there are—logically—three entirely different tiers of heirloom throwbacks; the only reason this hasn't shown up at a Whole Foods near you is that Amazon's marketrons have yet to figure out how to make Silver Heirloom, Gold Heirloom, and Platinum Heirloom sound appetizing—though it does accurately reflect viable price points, given the associated yields.)

    Diet is super important. We can't go around making naive assumptions. Neither can we trust failed epidemiology to untangle these incredibly complex signals. However, from the microbiome (and proteomics) much truth shall flow, even if it proves to be slow going.

    1. Re:god bless the microbiome by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      Diet is super important. We can't go around making naive assumptions. Neither can we trust failed epidemiology to untangle these incredibly complex signals. However, from the microbiome (and proteomics) much truth shall flow, even if it proves to be slow going.

      Shit man, with your knowledge you are going to live forever.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    2. Re:god bless the microbiome by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Agreed. And I'm already dead.

    3. Re:god bless the microbiome by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Agreed. And I'm already dead.

      Well, there ya go!

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  18. Nothing we did not already know... by godrik · · Score: 2

    We should replicate studies and confirm analysis independently before we get too excited about any results. It is hard to run this kind of studies, there are lots of variable to consider, lots of potential misreported event. We need to be careful. I don't mean that the authors are always lying on purpose, but they could have missed something important, they could have made an error. Peer review does not quite catch these things.

    Any kind of study should be taken with a grain of salt until it is replicated in multiple place.

    And I say that as a computer scientist. There are things that appear to make a lot of sense when you describe them. It does not always mean they will work. And sometimes it works in one paper, and not in other ones. Machines are never quite the same, the instances could have slightly different characteristics. Lots of things can happen. We need to be careful.

    Of course, the media just loves a good headline. So they'll print pretty much anything to sale some papers.

    1. Re:Nothing we did not already know... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      We should replicate studies and confirm analysis independently before we get too excited about any results..

      That's true, but the hitch is there will be financial interests working and braying about whatever study gives them better profit opportunities.

      Not to mention the special interest groups like vegans.

      Or what I consider the ultimate insanity of the food puritans. Healthy sugar!

      And we don't hear much about Nitrates in veggies, but Got damn! Cured meats are shit!. Holy Botulism Batman!

      Remember when cooking in Aluminum utensils was going to give us Alzheimers?

      Eggs

      All you have to do is look at who loses, and who profits.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    2. Re:Nothing we did not already know... by umafuckit · · Score: 1

      We should replicate studies and confirm analysis independently before we get too excited about any results..

      That's true, but the hitch is there will be financial interests working and braying about whatever study gives them better profit opportunities.

      That doesn't stop the individual from looking at Cochran reviews and so forth to get a more balanced picture and making up their own minds. I do this whenever the media bring up a new study making some claim or other.

    3. Re:Nothing we did not already know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you've never heard of the Juice Cleanse Diet (TM)... Drink nothing but liquid sugar for a month, I guarantee you will feel better!

    4. Re:Nothing we did not already know... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      That doesn't stop the individual from looking at Cochran reviews and so forth to get a more balanced picture and making up their own minds. I do this whenever the media bring up a new study making some claim or other.

      But it won't cause them to look either. A lot of people want to hear that sucrose is healthier than High fructose corn sugar, and that diet drinks cause heart attacks. Now they slurp their Healthy sugar Big Gulps with a clear conscience.

      Peeps is peeps, and for some reason they want to think that if they only eat this, or avoid that, they will live forever - at least in their minds.

      Moderation has always and remains the best advice. They won't take that advice either.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    5. Re:Nothing we did not already know... by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

      Sucrose, HFCS, and most artificial sweeteners are ALL unhealthy. You want to avoid all of them insofar as possible. Stevia may (or may not) be an exception. The jury is still out. It increases insulin resistance according to a few studies, and decreases it according to many others. I suspect there are mechanisms by which it does both, and that the very fact of its sweetness may be part of the mechanism behind the former. I'd prefer it over the others, but the best thing is to try to phase out sweet drinks in general.

  19. That Slashdot "editors" Can't capitalise Properly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What Can We Learn From The Retraction of the Mediterranean Diet Study?"

    I learned that Slashdot Editors don't care enough about their job to capitalise "the" consistently.

  20. Astroturffers of th World Unite! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh wow! Oh great! Apologists and astroturffers for McDonalds get a healthy diet paper pulled.

  21. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Burning calories gives you cancer. This should be obvious because metabolism with oxygen produces free radicals.

    Low activity, and very low caloric intact is the only option. Marathon runners might be healthy as middle aged adults, but they don't make beyond their 90's.

  22. What Can We Learn? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look at this XKCD comic.

    The farther you get from pure mathematics, the more skeptical you should be of so-called 'scientific studies' and the more you need to question the study's methodology and statistical analysis.

    What we should already know is that agenda-driven 'researchers' can do everything in their power to bias 'research,' submit their findings to non-trustworthy 'journals,' and most unskeptical people will tout the findings without knowing the bogus processes behind the results.

    Why, this week alone, we've seen several 'studies' posted on slashdot with dubious research:
        1. Study about violent video games without large samples, representative samples, and survey based data collection.
        2. Study about glyphosate that purposefully used only 'high exposure' data to derive their 41% cancer increase.
        3. Investigation into Tesla's 'autopilot' where a difference of 18 cars worth of data causes a 100 percentage point swing (+40 to -59).

    We as consumers of this information just need to be more skeptical that farther away the research gets from hard science. Sociology research should be ignored outright; medical research should be taken with a large grain of salt; physics/chemistry research should be relatively reliable.

    But still be wary, snake-oil salesman exist in all areas of research -- anyone remember cold fusion?

  23. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mosr people donâ(TM)t make it beyond their 90s. If marathon runners are making it to 90 then theyâ(TM)ve far exceeded the odds based on life expectancy in the US.

  24. The four food groups by PKI+Champion · · Score: 1

    I ate pretty good in my younger days when we still had the 4 food groups: Carry-out, Frozen, Pizza, and Ramen. I also had generous servings of Malt, Barley, Hops, and Yeast!

  25. Re:What we should learn is not to trust studies. by Goldsmith · · Score: 2

    The driving force in science today is grant funding, which is itself driven by citations. For example, the NIH measures "research productivity" primarily with # of citations/dollar spent. In nanotechnology, my field, we have also measured research effectiveness by number of citations. This is not some idle interest, but leads to how research funding is distributed by scientific field. This results in a negative financial incentive for in-field scientists to disagree, and positive financial incentive to show that related scientific fields are problematic (and thus less worthy of funding). In this context of correlation between funding and citations, reviews should be viewed with great skepticism.

    In this case, science was advanced by introduction and acceptance of better statistical standards driven by competitive cross-disciplinary communication. (Leading to a main conclusion of TFA at Vox: the system works.)

    In my experience, validation only happens when scientists from other fields are able to reproduce and expand upon your results.

  26. The original study about this ignored locations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The team that originally made the Mediterranean Diet claims ignored the similar results and longevity from non-Mediterranean countries in Europe. The marketing with those pesky other countries just didn't work.

    The Germans were at the front of nutritional knowledge, but due to wars, those studies were suppressed. The USGovt need to make cheap food "ok" also had a hand in nutritional findings based on wishes instead of science. The USDA was (is?) owned by agribusinesses who demand that their products cannot be on the "limit eating" list, as most of them should. This goes for the flavored water and sugar and wheat industries too.

    So, what should humans eat to stop the heart disease, obesity, diabetes that was seldom seen in the past? Eat like your ancestors did in 1900-1935. They didn't have access to many flavored waters, coffee, tea, wine, beer and spirits. They didn't have easy access to sugar except for sweets. A sweet was something eaten once a week, in small amounts. They had fresh breads, cheeses, limited meats, limited fish, limited fruits. So what did they mostly eat? Vegetables. Also, they preserved/pickled everything to have those foods over winter. Cabbage, carrots, beets, you name it - it was preserved, slightly fermented, then ready to eat with all those natural bacteria.

    Not too much meat, fish, chicken - the very expensive stuff from the time.

    No need to eat like cavemen, just like our grand and great-grand parents.

    1. Re:The original study about this ignored locations by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Coffee, tea, wine, and beer have been around for millennia. Many coastal regions were heavily dependent on fish. Coffee, tea, and fish all have hundreds of studies demonstrating their health benefits.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  27. I agree with John Mortimer by digitig · · Score: 0

    "I refuse to spend my life worrying about what I eat. There is no pleasure worth forgoing just for an extra three years in the geriatric ward."

    --
    Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    1. Re:I agree with John Mortimer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular diseases and even cancer could be much more likely due to a poor diet and don't only affect dying geriatrics...

    2. Re:I agree with John Mortimer by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      "I refuse to spend my life worrying about what I eat. There is no pleasure worth forgoing just for an extra three years in the geriatric ward."

      That of course the question. While people mostly assume that all the dietary restrictions they put on themselves will somehow make them live foreveer, the shivering truth is even if these restrictions keep you from keeling over from say a heart attack, any reduction on one cause of death, can only increase the likelihood of dying from something else.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:I agree with John Mortimer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what should one eat in order to ensure that one "keels over from a heart attack"? Why would anyone not want the end to be sudden, complete, and catastrophic? Do you plan to enjoy that malingering slow death?

    4. Re:I agree with John Mortimer by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      So what should one eat in order to ensure that one "keels over from a heart attack"? Why would anyone not want the end to be sudden, complete, and catastrophic? Do you plan to enjoy that malingering slow death?

      You eat what you like in moderation, and hope the end comes like a thief in the night.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  28. Re:Don't eat any food that is white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alcohol is a literal poison. Drinking a lot will kill you, drinking a medium amount is bad for you, drinking in moderation is still harmful.

  29. Re:Don't eat any food that is white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can drown in water. That's why I'm very careful to make sure I only have it in very small quantities and the rest is alcohol.

    I've never heard of anyone drowning in alcohol.

  30. Re: Don't eat any food that is white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No white flour? It sounds like you have not lived in the area. They eat a lot of white bread in Greece and Italy.

  31. trust me, I'm a scientist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Trust me, I'm a scientist" starts to sound at the same level as "Hold my beer and watch this". The guys with the degrees find that to find funding (which keeps them alive) they need to 'adjust to the agenda at hand', whether its big-pasta, big-oil, big-pharma or big-whatever.
    Just ignore these guys, avoid processed sugar-laden (or now aspartame-laden) foods and carry on with life. Even the mighty MIT cannot unbundle itself from the money entanglement it is in due to overseas meddling and influence. Science needs a re-approach, all of it.

  32. Re:Don't eat any food that is white by alvinrod · · Score: 2

    Alcohol is a literal poison.

    That was the reason humans started producing it. It killed all of the microbes and other parasites that they didn't understand and couldn't see and meant that you wouldn't shit your own eyeballs out from illness you could get from water due to poor sanitation. Historically beer had much lower alcohol levels for the stuff that workers were drinking out in the fields or that was being served at meals.

  33. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whoosh!

  34. What we should learn is not to trust Republicans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Oil workers in Alaska would do fine on a Mediterranean diet, there's nothing "cutesy" about it. You're a moron who knows nothing about this.

  35. Re:Don't eat any food that is white by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    Alcohol is a literal poison.

    That was the reason humans started producing it. It killed all of the microbes and other parasites that they didn't understand and couldn't see and meant that you wouldn't shit your own eyeballs out from illness you could get from water due to poor sanitation. Historically beer had much lower alcohol levels for the stuff that workers were drinking out in the fields or that was being served at meals.

    Exactly. Beer, with it's much lessened microbial hotel load, it's yeast provided B vitamins, and it's sedative effect has probably saved many more lives than it has hurt. But the puritans apparently believe they are going to live forever

    BTW, the next big push will be eating insects. The UN is pushing that hard already.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  36. Re: "I've never heard of anyone drowning in alcoho by Petronius+Arbiter · · Score: 1

    Read Shakespeare's Richard III.

    George Plantagenet, 1st Duke of Clarence, was allegedly drowned in a butt of Malmsey wine on 18 February 1478.

  37. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    Low activity yields weak muscles and weak bones. Weakness is unpleasant and does not promotes a long life. Moderate activity and a good low calorie diet gives a better chance for a long, pleasant life.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  38. Excellent comment. Mod parent UP! by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    Interesting parent comment: "Studies of current dieting fads should not be [considered] as science. Correct diet is based on INDIVIDUAL needs of a person, that person's lifestyle and circumstances. No universal law can be applied to diet that would be as good for one person as [for] [an]other..."

    I think there are general facts about diet that are correct, but most articles and books say some things that are reasonable, but also add a lot of ideas that are imagination.

    Readers didn't like my comment: "There is fake news everywhere. People don't think carefully." However, it seems to me that is the overall issue. There are literally thousands of diet books. All of the diet books I've seen are very limited in their understanding.

  39. Re: Don't eat any food that is white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually this on only modern. The bread used to be rye or whole wheat

  40. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywhe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Fake News" is a terrible term. The correct term would be "misinformation" and all sides do it.

    When people define themselves by what they "hate" their is little chance of actually solving the problems we face. Rallies and marches do not solve problems thy only amplify the discord between those holding and supporting differing views. There are just too many people who think "Well I read it on the Internet so it must be true!"

    What we are dealing with today fits the description of "Yellow Journalism".

    "Yellow journalism and the yellow press are American terms for journalism and associated newspapers and media that present little or no legitimate well-researched news while instead using eye-catching headlines for increased sales. Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism. "

    Fakely important. What's different is "social media". There has never, ever been anything even remotely similar in scope and immediacy. Not newspapers, not radio, not television. Nothing.

    And the populations. They really are getting dumber, but I don't know if social media has influence there too.

  41. Re: What we should learn is not to trust Republica by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using seal blubber instead of olive oil

  42. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Burning calories gives you cancer. This should be obvious because metabolism with oxygen produces free radicals.

    Low activity, and very low caloric intact is the only option. Marathon runners might be healthy as middle aged adults, but they don't make beyond their 90's.

    Everyone already knows free radicals are isomers of Glyphosate Einstein.

  43. Re:Don't eat any food that is white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's because your not drinking literal

  44. alternate version of Appeal to Authority fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a society, we in the west became enamoured of "experts" and scientists, probably as a result of all the breakthroughs we saw that occurred in WWII. In the post-war era popular films frequently portrayed some terrible problem being solved with the assistance of lab-coated experts. While this was rolled-back a bit in the 1970s with lots of movies depicting "experts" who were wrong or using their expertise for dubious ends, it seems we still as a culture cling to some elements of "the fellows in the lab coats will save us" meme.

    I suspect this is why we so often fall for a headline touting some "study" by scientists or other "experts" to the point that we demand our politicians encode the findings into public policy, and many of us even re-order elements of our lives to comply with the "findings".

    In all things it's wise to keep in mind that ALL humans are "only human". In an altogether different context president Reagan used to say "trust, but verify" - healthy yet perhaps too trusting attitude. The fact that some supposed authority or expert says it, does not necessarily mean it's true. It may well be easy to say "that expert over there told me this", but do you really know what methodology that expert used? Are you certain that expert has no bias?

  45. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywhe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, what you call "Yellow Journalism" is what the rest of us call "Sensationalist Propaganda".

    Chinese newspapers are "Yellow Journalism".

  46. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Define "moderate activity". How many times a day should I get up off the couch to get a beer in order to have "moderate activity"?

  47. Re:/. TROLLS learned about their "diet" vs. me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Truer words were never spoken. Day after day, APK silences his critics.

    ALL HAIL APK

  48. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywh by pslytely+psycho · · Score: 1

    Interestingly enough, I can find no such study at the Pew Research Center.

    One article I found on some obscure site (fellowship of the mind...??) said it was a 2012 study but only links back to other pages on the same site. Not to the Pew Research Center.

    Care to provide a link? There are thousands of Pew studies, and an hour search on the site found nothing, even using 2012 and searching.

    --
    Donald Trump, on a crusade to make Nixon look respectable
  49. Re:What we should learn is not to trust studies. by tsa · · Score: 1

    Every good scientist knows that.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  50. Re: Don't eat any food that is white by tsa · · Score: 1

    The only countries in Europe that I can think of where they don’t eat primarily white bread are Germany and the Netherlands.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  51. Re:alternate version of Appeal to Authority fallac by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
    In all things it's wise to keep in mind that ALL humans are "only human".

    However, the evidence here in front of your very eyes is that some are more human than others!

    The only thing we should demand of politicians is that they walk the plank.

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  52. Re:What we should learn is not to trust studies. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    You should go on systemic reviews published in high impact factor journals.

    Systemic reviews aren't great, either. If it's a topic you care about, you should read the study yourself and evaluate it. Reproduce it if it's important enough, but with a knowledge of statistics you should be able to filter out most of the problematic ones.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  53. Re:What's good for you today is bad for you tomorr by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    Just use common sense

    wtf is common sense?

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  54. So why do scientists keep screwing up science? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 0

    This is far too regular occurrence and it looks like ar too large a percentage of scientific studies are flawed and many are so badly flawed that their conclusions are completely wrong and sometimes the complete opposite conclusion is true.

    So why aren't universities teaching people how to do science properly and why are scientific papers constantly missing all of the bad papers they are supposed to be reviewing?

    The system looks very broken to me and I do not agree with " It's science working as it should," it's a mess that literally affects whether people live or die.

    --
    Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    1. Re:So why do scientists keep screwing up science? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      So why do scientists keep screwing up science?

      becaue science, it turns out, is hard.

      This is far too regular occurrence and it looks like ar too large a percentage of scientific studies are flawed and many are so badly flawed that their conclusions are completely wrong and sometimes the complete opposite conclusion is true.

      90% of everything is crap and science has never been any exception. The thing about science that works is that it isn't ultimately about the individual results, but about the corrective process. And it demonstrable works.

      So why aren't universities teaching people how to do science properly

      They are, but there are several problems. One, science is hard. Two, if scientists don't produce high profile results then they lose their jobs, so corners often get cut.

      The system looks very broken to me and I do not agree with " It's science working as it should," it's a mess that literally affects whether people live or die.

      It's the only way we know. No one's come up with a better way of doind things yet.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:So why do scientists keep screwing up science? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      I think the thing you're missing is there are correct methods and those methods aren't always being followed.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    3. Re:So why do scientists keep screwing up science? by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Or to put it another way, it seems that the same mistakes happen over and over and over again. What's stopping universities from determining what the top ten most common mistakes made are and tackling those through their education?

      Normally we call people who make the same mistakes repeatedly idiots.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    4. Re:So why do scientists keep screwing up science? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      [replying to both messages at once]

      I think the thing you're missing is there are correct methods and those methods aren't always being followed.

      Yep that's certainly true.

      Or to put it another way, it seems that the same mistakes happen over and over and over again.

      Also true. Though I'd like to emphasise that science keeps marching forward despite that. The same mistakes are repeated over and over again. You can pick any decade and find it, but the corrective process works, which is why we do make forward progress.

      What's stopping universities from determining what the top ten most common mistakes made are and tackling those through their education?

      You're conflating the research part of universities and the education part. Those are generally different. But let's ignore that for now. The problem is the incentive structure encourages over interpretation of results and going for high impact over quality.

      Because if you don't get high impact papers you lose your job. It doesn't matter what you teach them in the classroom if you then threaten to take away their livelihood if they stick to it.

      And if the funding bodies don't bias towards high impact researchers, then people start asking them why they're funding less good scientists. The public/government want oversignt and they want to see the money is being well spent, i.e. going to the best scientists. and how d oyou tell they're the best? Well what can you measure...

      IOW this is not a problem universities can solve, since it's a structural problem with the whole machine (they're just a cog and they don't control the funding) and anyway we don't even really know what a better structure is. But we know what doesn't work.

      I've bumped into academia on and off over the years, and I know it pretty well. Lots of people have discussed these topics inside. If you like you can propose some solutions and I can tell you why I think they won't work. This is not to say your ideas are bad, but the problem is a hard one and I've already had this conversation many, many times and had every idea shot down for irrefutably good reasons.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:So why do scientists keep screwing up science? by tomhath · · Score: 1

      What you're missing is that humans aren't perfect. Compare our health and lifestyle today to what people had no more that 100 years ago (e.g. the 1918 Flu pandemic that killed millions of people). You can't expect every study to be done perfectly, there are reviews and occasionally retractions. But overall the progress has been tremendous.

    6. Re:So why do scientists keep screwing up science? by Obfiscator · · Score: 1

      In my mind, that's the key: universities don't teach how to do research.

      Universities teach how to use a number of tools found in research through coursework at both the graduate and undergraduate level. But that's very different than teaching how to do research. Even working on a semester-long or year-long research project as an undergraduate is very different than what an independent researcher will see. More importantly, how you approach the problem is very different as well.

      Research is writing grant proposals. Research is designing experiments. Research is using cutting-edge tools published by groups of other scientists who probably made mistakes in the single paper documenting the tool and the results.

      Universities give you a problem that is solvable, with high probability that the tool you need to solve it can be found in the preceding chapter (or chapters). I have yet to see research do that.

      While I agree knowing the ten most common mistakes would be very useful, they mean very little to someone who has not yet already done research. As such, I expect a single class teaching them would have little impact.

      If, on the other hand, you are proposing to redesign the whole curriculum and teaching methods to eliminate those mistakes, I think that might have a chance of being successful. On the other hand, given the amount of work that would take, you'd have to have very ambitious deans, department heads, and teaching faculty to make it happen.

      --
      "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." -Indiana Jones
  55. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news every by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's no gourmet Mediterranean food in Prison, Trump Traitors

  56. Re: Don't eat any food that is white by Venerable+Vegetable · · Score: 1

    And even there, a lot of the brown bread is just colored white bread; the mild taste and soft texture of white bread, and the healthy feeling of brown bread (win / "win"!).

  57. Re: Don't eat any food that is white by tsa · · Score: 1

    Yes you're right. And then there is Waldkorn, with extra added sugar and other niceties. It's very tasty though.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  58. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How the populations and social media having anything to do with the corrupt science?
    The scientists of Mediterranean diet did not find it of Facebook.

  59. So in the Meantime.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone will shill their personal dietary preference because the scientists left the room.

  60. Re: What can we learn? There is fake news everywh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You fell for the current Republican strategy of just making shit up. Your research and disproof of the statement is a waste of your time. It just spreads the original statement farther.

  61. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For me it's 6, but I'm trying to improve to 10 or so.

  62. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody pays you to reproduce studies.

  63. /. TROLLS learned about their "diet" vs. me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    /. TROLLS learned about their "diet" vs. me: They now know that EATING THEIR WORDS != GOOD NUTRITION & they're dyring of MALNUTRITION due to it (lmao).

    * ESPECIALLY when they RAM those words back down their CHICKEN-NECK whimp THROATS since they put their FOOT in their MOUTH to taste that "fine flavor" of EATING THEIR WORDS!

    APK

    P.S.=> They're STARVING but they do ENJOY the BITTER TASTE of SELF-DEFEAT vs. me, everytime - lmao.. apk

  64. Re:What we should learn is not to trust studies. by hey! · · Score: 1

    Systemic reviews are the best way for layman to evaluate evidence. If you *do* choose the read *a* study, you need to real *a lot* of studies that cite it before you put any credence in it.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  65. Re:Don't eat any food that is white by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck! My life is devastated. Would you at least allow soy sprouts? Pretty please? No? Onions maybe?

  66. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    I don't even think you are right. Systemic reviews tend to be written by the same crappy scientists who wrote the original crappy studies. In my experience they are poorly written as often as not. Ultimately if you don't understand statistics and can't calculate the margin of error on a study, then you are hosed and there is nothing you can do.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  67. Re:What's good for you today is bad for you tomorr by sound+vision · · Score: 1

    When it comes to diet, common sense is to eat as wide a variety of foods as possible, in reasonable quantities.

    People lack common sense because they think the quantities of food that get served to them are OK to eat all in 1 go - they're not. Your meals should not be 1000 calories unless you're bodybuilding. Every time I go out to eat, even just fast food, I usually have a third of it left over to save for later in the day.

    Oh, metabolizing what you eat helps as well. That doesn't mean join a gym, it means don't sit motionless all day.

    Common sense boils down to "Diet & exercise", somehow people manage to turn both these words into a gnarled mess of contradictory ideas as they look for an easy way out that doesn't involve standing up and lowering your intake. The researchers try to detach themselves from that wheel, but as the impetus behind their research is providing an answer people want to hear - magic foods to eat that make you healthy - they can't totally decouple from it. Thank God there's been a retraction on this one, my faith in the system of scientific inquiry is a little stronger today.

    I've been saying it for years, I don't trust nutritionists or economists... The weather man has gotten quite a bit better these days, though.

  68. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies. by hey! · · Score: 1

    YMMV of course, which is why I suggested restricting your search to leading journals that are difficult to get published in. But looking at an *individual* study is useless, unless you are committed to looking at a large number of of other papers that cite that study. Most researchers get a lot of things wrong on the first go, even the good ones.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  69. You're right! +anecdote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anecdote: I failed a class once. We had a mandatory final project, and I chose to reimplement an algorithm from a paper and try it on some new data.

    Their code didn't work.

    Their ideas, rewritten in new code, didn't work.

    I couldn't get anything at all to work, and so I handed in nothing, took a ZERO on the class. Professor never once hinted to me that maybe (I was a naive undergrad) they'd falsified their data.

    Ah well. Nobody will ever care about that zero now. But it stopped me from getting into grad school.

  70. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    I don't think it's that bad. Most papers follow a format kind of like this:

    1) Assuming X (which relies on other studies)
    2) We tested Y
    3) And conclude Z

    Usually the parts you are interested in are Y and Z. So the first thing to look for is the methodology. Is it an experiment you could reproduce and get the exact same results (assuming you had funding, of course)? In other words, did they describe it in enough detail to be reproducible?

    The next thing to look for is error bars. Have the calculated the margin of error, and does the calculation make sense?

    The next thing to look for is the effect size. A lot of studies baaaarely show any significant effect at all, and that's a good sign that the paper isn't very good.

    If you get past those things, there's a good chance the study would be able to be reproduced if someone tried. Of course, that's the next step: reproducing the study if you want to be sure.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  71. Re: Don't eat any food that is white by Obfiscator · · Score: 1

    I would say Finland, as well. I've heard many a Finn complain about how difficult it is to get good rye bread outside of Finland.

    Then again, perhaps diets have changed. This is just based on my experience.

    --
    "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." -Indiana Jones
  72. Re:/. TROLLS learned about their "diet" vs. me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is actually the funniest APK post I've seen in a long time. Bravo, good sir.

  73. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

    Conservatively speaking? Get a beer or two (no more) per day anytime you want. But also make sure you have 30 minutes of moderate activity (brisk walking or better) at least 4 times a week. More is better, but this much is known to have significant benefits.

  74. Re:What's good for you today is bad for you tomorr by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

    Good advice IMO.

    There's a lot that remains unknown and/or disputed, but there seems to be a growing consensus regarding the following, including both alternative and mainstream schools of nutritional medicine:

        * Aim for more nutrients (vitamins/minerals) and less calories, especially empty ones.

        * Avoid sugars and high-glycemic carbs (white, refined starches). At most they should be consumed as rare treats, not part of one's regular, daily diet.

        * Eat healthier things first; this will reduce one's appetites/cravings for less healthy things.

        * At least 30 minutes of moderate exercise, at least 4-5 times per week. Brisk walking seems sufficient for most people, though strength training has proven benefits as well.

        * Most people need more vitamins C and D than can be provided via diet and sunlight exposure alone, and should consider supplementing (but NOT all vitamins and minerals can be supplemented adequately or safely; most can and should be derived from food). B12 deficiency also is very common, and can be treated by occasional (at most monthly) injections since the body can store a lot, but can't always process dietary B12 properly.

        * While there is still debate around high vs. low carb, high vs. low fat, high vs. low protein in general . . . and individual health circumstances that could either require or proscribe any of these . . . most people need a diet that is neither excessively high in, nor devoid of, any of these.

  75. Re:What's good for you today is bad for you tomorr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eat what thou wilt shall be the whole of the diet.

  76. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies. by hey! · · Score: 1

    I don't necessarily disagree, but I would like to respond to this:

    If you get past those things, there's a good chance the study would be able to be reproduced if someone tried.

    This is true, but it does *not* necessarily mean that other equally valid but contrary studies could take place. The more complex a system you are talking about, the more apparently contrasting evidence is bound to be found. This is particularly true in fields like nutrition, where the funding available is low relative to the complexity of the problem being studied. It's like trying to paint a 360 degree panorama that you're studying through a drinking straw.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  77. Re: What we should learn is not to trust studies. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    This is particularly true in fields like nutrition, where the funding available is low relative to the complexity of the problem being studied.

    Most studies in the field of nutrition fall into the "inconclusive" category.

    The more complex a system you are talking about, the more apparently contrasting evidence is bound to be found.

    Now you're talking about this kind of thing. Fortunately, if someone does yet another study to determine whether coffee causes cancer, they summarize previous research briefly, in order to explain why their study is special.

    A lot of times the problem is the media misrepresenting a study in order to be sensationalistic, and if you read the actual paper instead of the reports, it's more tame and accurate. (and sometimes scientists are complicit in it, by the title of their paper something surprising or by giving interviews to the media that are not entirely supported, or they are misquoted.)

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."