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VW Says China To Become Global Software Development Hub For Autonomous Tech (reuters.com)

Volkswagen will use Chinese software developers to help design a global autonomous vehicle architecture thanks to the prevalence of qualified programmers which carmakers are struggling to hire elsewhere, senior executives said on Monday. Reuters reports: As carmakers scramble to develop advanced driver assistance systems and autonomous driving functions, carmakers are struggling to find qualified engineers to build the software algorithms needed to teach cars the right reflexes. Volkswagen has 4,000 engineers in China, with an average age of 29, spread over five research and development sites and a rapidly growing number of software engineers. "In a short period from now they will be able to do 15 to 20 million lines of programming code on an annual basis," Volkswagen China's passenger cars chief Stephan Woellenstein said in Shanghai on Monday.

The prevalence of software engineers, combined with the country's willingness to roll out the infrastructure for connected and self-driving cars, will make China one of the first markets in which autonomous cars gain widespread acceptance, VW managers said. As a result, Chinese suppliers will help Volkswagen Group to design a global autonomous vehicle architecture, he said.

21 of 186 comments (clear)

  1. Don't think I'd trust the software by melted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't think I'd trust the software developed under a sweatshop-like 12 hours a day 6 days a week regime, sorry VW. Software made in the us by foremost experts in the field is bad enough to run into firetrucks as it is, this shit will explode when you press the engine start button.

    1. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd never trust yank software developed under sweatshop-like 12 hours a day 6 days a week regime, with no universal healthcare or workers rights, sorry Boeing.

      Also your "engineers" crashed that Mars orbiter because you couldn't tell inches in cm.

    2. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't think I'd trust the software developed under a sweatshop-like 12 hours a day 6 days a week regime, sorry VW.

      Are you talking about China or a Silicon Valley startup?

      Besides, that ship sales long ago. Geely and Tata software is already in millions of cars, many of them old Western brands that they bought up.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by Freischutz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      " thanks to the prevalence of qualified programmers which carmakers are struggling to hire elsewhere" is the key phrase.

      This shortage is thanks to a long sequence of governments in the US and Europe who have put in tireless work over several decades to disassemble their education systems and stultify their populations so that they'll cheer when the money previously spent on educating them is spent to tax breaks to finance stock buybacks and CEO bonuses. You get what you vote for, especially if you allow yourself to be distracted from what really matters by non issues like immigrant caravans/flotillas supposedly coming to destroy your christian conservative civilisation. Meanwhile the Chinese put tons of money into universities and incentives for young people to go there. Is anybody surprised that their method worked better than the asinine political circus we are currently obsessing over at the expense of everything else except tax breaks for the fabulously rich?

    4. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by Freischutz · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Very well said.

      The whole entire anti-education agenda of these right wing populists just pisses me off. My great great grandfather was a serf, a cottager. He made sure his son got educated as a carpenter. My great grandfather decided that the way to an even better life was to educate his sons and daughters so he taught them to read by himself. My grandfather became a sailor, his sisters all got good positions that allowed them to live a better life. My grandparents also educated all of their kids to the best of their financial ability. That is why I could go to University and get a CS degree. I recommend people watch the below clip because this is where we have ended up:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      This is not just an American story, it's just worse there than it is in many other places. Every singe one of those people are going somewhere else to work where they'll be better paid and have an actual budget to get their job done. If you can move to China and get paid 3 times a US teacher's wage teaching Chinese high school students English in preparation for their university studies and a career as a highly skilled worker something is seriously wrong. Meanwhile the US is still busy arguing over asinine crap like whether the 'Kansas experiment', where they completely de-funded all of their schools in a quest for small government, was actually a good idea that was not given long enough to work out. Just watching that debate you begin to understand what the problem is. Being uneducated is nothing to be ashamed of, it is something you should strive to fix, not celebrate.

    5. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by Freischutz · · Score: 4, Funny

      My great great grandfather was a serf, a cottager.

      Perhaps alternate phrasing next time? https://www.urbandictionary.co...

      Cottager is one of the levels of serfdom in feudal societies, I can't help it that your mind is a sewer.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    6. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by Freischutz · · Score: 3, Funny

      Your great great grandfather was a faggot!

      I doubt it, at the time people were executed for homosexuality and it was a small community, he lived to be a very old man.

      Incidentally, back then people were also heavily fined (or flogged if they could not pay) for begin a potty mouth like you.

    7. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by Freischutz · · Score: 2

      It sounds like a grade of cheese to me. Between cottage and cottagest.

      That is because cottage cheese is literally what it says on the tin. Cottage cheese is cheese curds and whey. It was eaten by poor people for the most part. In really hard times they'd strain out the whey, dissolve bones in the whey and eat it like a soup. I tasted that dish once and never felt any desire to do so again.

    8. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 3, Informative

      I work at a chinese owned car company, a big one, but we don't yet have a sales presence in the US.

      we have thousands in china and a few hundred in the bay area.

      I often can see the difference in approach and code quality between east and west.

      all I will say is: code and design from china mostly sucks. they are STILL windows-based (in thoughts and machinery) and while e-cars are all going qnx and linux (and android), the windows people still are the majority of the so-called programmers over there.

      they can throw 10x as many people at a project and it will still suck.

      there is a REASON software is done here in the US, for complex projects. china simply cannot do it; if they could, they would not ALL have local bay area offices where the real design is done.

      the bay area engineers are more skilled and experienced, but being a chinese owned company, we are a little too, uhm, 'thrifty' and this is going to hurt us, long-term.

      we also don't pay for performance and we don't reward top performers. the china way is: burn people out and hope they leave on their own, soon.

      this is NO WAY to do business. but sadly, its how it is, right now.

      (perhaps hold off buying chinese-made cars for a while, is my advice)

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    9. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by e3m4n · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are delusional if you think this is a right wing problem. The vast majority of the kids I see going to private schools come from right wing families. I’m not even talking about super rich elite private schools. I am sure that they could find better ways to spend that $15,000 per year on tuition if they thought they had a choice. They are doing it so that their children have a decent shot at succeeding later in life. Three of the four largest and most successful private schools in my city (not even tier 3 in size) are religious in some sort of charter. Lexington Catholic, Lexington Christian Academy, Christ the King, etc. their academic program is far from substandard. They have the highest percentage of high school graduates qualifying for and in rolling into college.

        So I do not think they are anti-education. Some do not like the anti-religious aspect of school, but a vast majority are doing it because of the substandard education that’s being offered up in public school that’s now deemed “good enough“. My daughter goes to public school. She’s finishing up her sophomore year. For the last four years I have been telling her that her writing skills are shit. I am constantly complaining about the quality of homework she hands him. Sometime she answers questions and doesn’t even use a complete sentence. Of course, she would argue back that the teacher said she doesn’t have to. Thinking I’m being lied to I reach out and ask the teachers. Guess what? She didn’t fucking have to! I am far from religious, but I’m starting to develop an anti-public education attitude based on these shitty reduced standards. In the early 80s, when I was in junior high, they didn’t call it middle school back then, you are not allowed to turn in any work that did not contain complete sentences. I do believe that the damn Scan-tron Machines that instantly graded those fill in the circle multiple choice test were the beginning of the stupidity. Sure it made it easy for the teachers, but recognizing the correct answer when told is not the same thing is actually knowing the correct answer.

    10. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by Freischutz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are delusional if you think this is a right wing problem. The vast majority of the kids I see going to private schools come from right wing families. I’m not even talking about super rich elite private schools. I am sure that they could find better ways to spend that $15,000 per year on tuition if they thought they had a choice. They are doing it so that their children have a decent shot at succeeding later in life. Three of the four largest and most successful private schools in my city (not even tier 3 in size) are religious in some sort of charter. Lexington Catholic, Lexington Christian Academy, Christ the King, etc. their academic program is far from substandard. They have the highest percentage of high school graduates qualifying for and in rolling into college.

      So I do not think they are anti-education. Some do not like the anti-religious aspect of school, but a vast majority are doing it because of the substandard education that’s being offered up in public school that’s now deemed “good enough“. My daughter goes to public school. She’s finishing up her sophomore year. For the last four years I have been telling her that her writing skills are shit. I am constantly complaining about the quality of homework she hands him. Sometime she answers questions and doesn’t even use a complete sentence. Of course, she would argue back that the teacher said she doesn’t have to. Thinking I’m being lied to I reach out and ask the teachers. Guess what? She didn’t fucking have to! I am far from religious, but I’m starting to develop an anti-public education attitude based on these shitty reduced standards. In the early 80s, when I was in junior high, they didn’t call it middle school back then, you are not allowed to turn in any work that did not contain complete sentences. I do believe that the damn Scan-tron Machines that instantly graded those fill in the circle multiple choice test were the beginning of the stupidity. Sure it made it easy for the teachers, but recognizing the correct answer when told is not the same thing is actually knowing the correct answer.

      The right-wing elite is not completely anti-education, they just encourage it in their political followers. It is the right-wing that energetically courts the evangelical movement that agitates against provable scientific facts like evolution. I have never seen a modern mainstream left wing movement in the US or EU declare a multi front war on science. The most impressive thing that the right wing has accomplished in the last 30 years is to convince about a third of America's working poor that their best friends looking out for the interests of the working poor are a bunch of trust fund babies who shit into golden toilets. They go to Trump rallies, give speeches about how you should hate and scorn the 'intellectual elite' ... "We golden toilet shitting billionaires who pay no taxes aren't the Elite!!! the college professors are the elite and must be destroyed!!! .... then they turn around and spend $2.5 million to get their idiot son (Jared Kushner in this example) into a university. It is a quite interesting hypocrisy but for some reason they feel they'll benefit from turning the broad masses of the poor into a bunch of illiterates by defunding education. Ill give the Chinese quite a lot of credit for spending large amounts of money to do the opposite.

    11. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by Freischutz · · Score: 2

      > Say the right wing is anti-education
      > Gets examples of the right wing not being anti-education
      "Well of course those specific guys aren't!!! But everyone else is!!! I'm not wrong! I'm not wrong!"

      Are you really unable to understand the concept of hypocrisy? ... As in: some right-wingnut spends money to get their idiot kids into a university and then goes to a Trump rally and rages against the educated. That's hypocrisy. Let me help you educate yourself on hypocrisy: https://www.google.com/search?...

    12. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by e3m4n · · Score: 2

      I think we are engaged on a couple of threads here now btw. Im pretty anti-religion, so I can see how the evolution topic can seem like a war on science. It is, and it isnt. It goes back to Neitzsche's remark about convictions and ignoring a truth that conflicts with a conviction. Nothing about evolution is contradictory to anything in the bible. Evolution does not, by itself, disprove god. The only thing it does is imply that the world did not get made in just 6 earth days, and organisms did not manifest out of thin air like magic. My favorite thing to tell someone who gets hung up over this is that if God made the laws of the universe, then being a perfect being (they love it when you build it up like this), he would be bound to follow the laws he created. One universal law is that energy/matter always takes the path of least resistance, and evolution, whether it be divinely guided or otherwise, is clearly that path of least resistance.

      However, to refute your statement that you have never seen a multi-front war on science from the left is disingenuous. There have been /. articles about that very topic. Perhaps your definition of science and mine differ. To me the scientific process, peer review, the challenges that arise from your conclusion, are all science. Without that, its not science, its simply statements. There was a time, and in some parts it still exists, a broad left-wing cultural belief that it is OK to use money, power, and influence to push one scientific viewpoint over another. I am speaking of climate debate. Not the put-your-head-in-the-sand, earth is flat, type debate. I am talking about the scientists that have competing theories as to WHY things are going the way they are going and can the wrong correction potentially make a problem worse by overcorrecting. There are a large group that think its OK to fire them, defund any means they can use to speak to others, to silence them in the media and on social media. That is censorship. It is also a war on science. Because science is not about picking the right side. Its about encouraging criticism. To call anything 'settle science' when its constantly revealed that certain numbers were 'adjusted' to make the result fit with the theory. THAT also is a war on science. Its no different than declaring Adam appeared out of thin air 5k years ago, and someone saying 'but what about these humanoid fossils were radiologically dated to be 50k years old'? and then condemning all radiological dating to a specific problem Carbon dating has for things less than 20k years old. They are both a war on Science. Both sides think they are right and both sides are willing to abandon the fundamentals of science to get their THEORY to be accepted. I got news for you, sometimes its ALWAYS going to be a theory. In the navy I was a nuclear engineer. To this date, the idea that an unstable U-235 atom can absorb a thermal neutron, become unstable, and divide, releasing energy and imparting kinetic energy into its surrounding coolant, its still very much still THEORY. We build warships day in and day out relying heavily on this theory. Hell they still teach it using Bohrs model of the atom in the navy. IT doesnt mean that how it works cannot one day be better explained and theorized. It would be unfortunate if there were die-hard holdouts that still insist that the Bohrs model is the only true and accurate one.

      Climatology was a soft science to begin with because there were too many moving parts that people barely understood in isolation let alone as part of a giant ecosystem. It stopped being science entirely when people who are not scientists turned it into a completely political type debate and the scientists, who also have lives outside of science and have their own political views, allowed it to happen. They themselves now sponsor censorship of any disagreement. What happens when the same behavior starts happening to other forms of science? We opened the door and justified it this one time as being OK. Thats called precedence and the imp

    13. Re:Don't think I'd trust the software by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      The vast majority of the kids I see going to private schools come from right wing families.

      Right, the ones who can afford it are just anti-free-education, and push the anti-intellectual angle to get the ones who can't afford it to be the same.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  2. Still counting lines of code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    After all these years, nay, decades of writing software, after all the evidence to the fact that the number of lines of code have absolutely no positive correlation to the software's quality (on the contrary) they still use it as a metric. metric of what? their ability to hit the keyboard?

  3. Can't find devs? by Viol8 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wonder why. Speaking as someone who keeps getting turned down for embedded dev jobs despite having PIC and arduino programming experience along with my 20+ years of system level C,C++ and x86 assembler programming, I suspect its the usual case of a company wanting high grade skills but only wanting to pay low grade wages.

    1. Re:Can't find devs? by monkeyxpress · · Score: 2

      I wonder why. Speaking as someone who keeps getting turned down for embedded dev jobs despite having PIC and arduino programming experience along with my 20+ years of system level C,C++ and x86 assembler programming, I suspect its the usual case of a company wanting high grade skills but only wanting to pay low grade wages.

      FYI, if you are applying for a serious embedded dev job NEVER say you have Arduino experience. To an embedded dev an Ardiuno is a hobbyist kit stuck on top of an Atmel AVR (which itself is a very dated chip now). My advice would be to get an STM32 dev kit and learn how to build a program for the platform and run a few peripherals (without the libraries). An embedded dev who hasn't dipped into the world of ARM Cortex by now is looking pretty dated these days, which is fine if you have huge amounts of experience in a particular platform and want to do contract work maintaining a legacy PIC or Atmel project, but they won't hire an Arduino person for that sort of work.

  4. Re:dumb and lazy by dehachel12 · · Score: 2

    accident statistics prove that humans can't be trusted to steer cars.

  5. Rise of Chinese Engineering by monkeyxpress · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As an engineer this stuff makes me a bit concerned. I don't really see any reason why China is not going to take the bulk of the engineering jobs from western countries over the next ten years in the same way they took all the manufacturing jobs. I work a lot with Chinese suppliers. Over the last 10 years there has been a real shift. Sure you can still get your 'classic chinese experience' in Shenzhen, where you rock on up, expect to beat every supplier into the ground with cheap prices, then struggle with quality issues for the next 12 months. But if you go there and pay reasonable prices for stuff, then you get great service, great quality and good support. This part of the market seems to be growing rapidly over there.

    The chinese understand quality as well as most western people. It is just that many companies only go to china for cost reasons, so the chinese attempt to meet those cost expectations by cutting corners. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. If you go to the cheapest car repair shop you should expect that it is more likely they will try to rip you off.

    The trouble is that the Chinese have all the supply chain at the moment and this gives them a foot in the door of western companies. I know of a number of companies here in the UK where manufacturing was moved to china, and the chinese contractor offered to do the mech design on the company's next product for free. They did a good job and soon enough management was downsizing the engineering department and shipping that work offshore.

    They can do good mech engineering now, and electronics design, so why does anyone believe they won't be able to do software as well? I think it is just a matter of time.

    The problem for western countries is that their governments still believe they have some sort of inherent superiority; that just because they are 'developed' they will always be rich. So rather than taking china head on by investing in modern manufacturing and STEMS they invest in financial innovations that will apparently make us all rich despite producing no real value. It is a dangerous game, and in my opinion, at some point all this financial innovation will be show to be the fraud that it is, and the west will quickly discover that a bunch of engineers (or construction grunts for that matter) in a room is much more useful that a stadium full of lawyers when the real world infrastructure that supports western standards of living has fallen apart.

    Realistically the best hope for the west is that China gets taken over by lawyers and bean counters as well. What a sad state of affairs.

  6. And in related news... by e3m4n · · Score: 3, Funny

    VW owners have been complaining that when they are in their car and make negative comments about various members of government, the vehicle abruptly changes course and drives them to the nearest police station while requesting intervention by the assigned political officer.

  7. Small wonder by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "thanks to the prevalence of qualified programmers which carmakers are struggling to hire elsewhere, "

    VW's software developer were (are?) busy developing cheating software to get around the emission laws, thereby accepting willingly the death of additional thousands of people just for greed.