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Palm VII Field Trial
It comes with 2 mb RAM and a host of PQAs -- Palm Query Apps, including MapQuest, Yahoo! People Search, E*Trade, ESPN.com, ABCNews, and OAG flights, to name a few. It also has the standard applications, including (I have a Pilot 1000 upgraded to 1MB normally) an app for the Graffiti chart so you don't have to use your pen shortcut for it and all of the other normal apps.
I've tested numerous 3rd party apps with it and they all work just fine, including games with greyscale!
The "backlighting" isn't. The pixels themselves glow green when you activate the lighting. That's right... the pixels glow green, not the background. It looks really odd at first, but you get used to it. No more using your Palm units as night lights, folks. :-)
The service is good, but they're still working out the prices for air-time (metered by the KB) and the actual units.
A couple of VERY nice features are that most of the web sites which you hit with the PQAs will warn you if a download is more than 1kb, and on the e-mail it will only download the first 500 or so bytes and then tell you how much is left, so you can opt to get more, get all that's left, or delete the message without spending your KBs for the month.
Overall, I am very impressed with the unit and we have some solid potential uses here at my company for this new technology. I would strongly urge anyone who is working and developing PalmOS applications for business use to look into the Palm VII for applications which need to access large amounts of data on the run.
No, I am not a Palm Computing or 3 COM employee. I just think PalmOS is a great OS to use for handhelds and it's great that there are good Linux apps out there for development, so I can limit my Windows time to playing games with my 4 yr old.
-Q "
It sounds like the same backlighting thing as my Palm V. I am still trying to get used to it.
I was priveledged to use a Minstral for a few months with my older PalmPro. It too rocked, but the size was quite a limitation. Even the size of the Palm VII bothers me, and I'll personally be waiting 'till they fit the PalmVII in a PalmV profile.
The only thing that really bugs me about the PalmVII is the possibility of having the traffic metered.
_______
2B1ASK1
I want one! Maybe this would be a good PDA to get considering I still have an original Newton! Yeah!
did I hear anyone say grey scale on palm VII ??
COOL !!!
Color Palm-size PC FAQ
The best thing - they will be out in APRIL - no more waiting. No green-or-white or fake grayscale. Better sound. Selectable input methods. Cool games (including Gameboy and Sega emulators). Even a Palm emulator for those hold-backs...
BTW - this is what ***I*** am looking for in a pocket-sized no-keyboard computer. You may be looking for just an address book. In that case I recommend using one of those $3.99 ones from Staples or Office Depots, made from paper. Or get a Palm if you think you look cool with it, but good luck learning that damn input method (which some people like, but I'll bet they haven't used Jot or Calligrapher).
Anyways, be sure to look around and see what YOU like rather than just diving for the "not-Microsoft" choice. I'm gald I did.
My Psion5 does 640x200 w/16 grays, 8MB out of the box, and faster CPU. :)
Any word on whether or not this unit is upgradable in terms of memory? It would be nice to bypass the entire 2MB mess that 3COM's created-- without a need to open the case.
Buy a freakin' laptop then
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't the CE machines generally blow chunks as far as actual real-world use? They may look good, but if you can only use it for an hour or three, it's not going to work for the average commuter/biztraveler who is the supposed market for them. Palms run at least 12 hours on a set of batteries, and the new rechargable sounds like a great idea (notwithstanding the puny RAM).
Geeks will always have our toys, but if the CE machines want to catch on (and based on the available apps vs. the Palm, they aren't), they need to look at how people actually use their machines.
Also, based on every CE machine I've tested, vs. the Palms that I have used, the input method for the Palm is superior to Jot.
Illegitimi non carborundum
Personally, I've always thought that the fact that the Palm doesn't have color meant that 3COM has always supported function over form (the way it should be). I would expect any rich yuppie fool who wanted to show off to his friends to love the new WinCE machines, but the people that use a PDA to actually manage major parts of their lives should probably stick to the Palm. Since when did you feel the need to play MP3's out of your dinky PDA in the first place? Talk about battery drain. There's a reason why the battery life for a PalmV is measured in weeks, not in hours. You sound like someone who would say that Yahoo! should put Shockwave/CSS2/Java on every page.
It's the same reasoning. Yahoo! (and Palm) expect their users to use their product for a long period of time. WinCE has glitz and glamour to catch the eye, but that shit just gets annoying after a while. It's the reason I have a Palm, and will always have a Palm (until they decide to make them all color and capable of playing MP3s).
It is supported by the hardware, but not by the OS.
Greyscale uses twice as much RAM for graphics, so I guess that why they left it out.
Remember that the first Pilot only had 256K of RAM. (or so)
I have heard rumors that the PalmV hardware does not support grey scale though.
The Palm VII is based on the same old hardware as always, though.
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
I know ... my newton is also grey scale .... .. palm pilot eventually got a gey scale screen ...
but after all these years
I really don't expect a 16bit clolor screen for a such a small handheld device.
Would be interested in knowing (1) what wireless carrier was used, and (2) what wireless data comm technology was used, e.g., CDPD, Paging network, Analog cellular, etc.
I have'nt shopped recently for a PDA, but what is the price difference between a Palm and those flashy WinCE machine ?
;)
I would'nt pay 800$ for a PDA. I'll buy a used laptop instead. PDA should be cheap if they want to be Personnal.
On another note : did they crash frequently ?
(That's where the color become interesting : you can have a blue screen
:wq
Found this at Gadgeteer Palm V Review "But, thanks to Calvin's New Palm Info, I learned that there is a toggle to reverse the reversed backlight and make it what I would consider normal. You do the shortcut command, .8 to reverse the screen." Don't know if this works with the VII but it works great with the V. Vermifax
Vermifax
Logout
The Palm 3x and Palm V both have hardware support
for 16 level greyscale.
There is a demo on pilotgear that demontrate this.
Its call greydemo or something.
Dave
MMMMm..... are you re you are using you palm sized PC correctly ? .. ... if u want to play games with you palm sized pc ... U should have a bigger screen, otherwise we'll be quite worried about your eyes. .... some how it is too good for a plam size device, and not good enough for a destop PC or laptop. It's situation is just like Newton, it was too powerful for handheld device or too complicated, but not good enough for desktop. ... MS tried very hard to expeand it's market byt giving it away at very cheap price ... and always promise improvements ...
according to my imagination, i think you palm sized PC will need a larger screen and more ram
at least you should get 256MB of Ram for it.
every mp3 songs need at leat 2-3 MB of space
also
I am not saying that winCE is not good. CE is very good
The situation is, if win CE is being developed and marketed by other small company other than MS.. I am sure it's already dead by now
When it's doing its thing, it's awesome. I've had some problems with the net-bound mail taking anywhere up to 1/2 an hour to leave their network but unit to unit communication is almost instant.
One thing that gets me about the Win CE machines (apart from the M$ software) is that it seems to be impossible to program or write 3rd party apps for the thing. Unless I am really mistaken, you can't develop your own software to run on a CE machine. This is a feature I really value in the Palm Pilots, even if their hardware (RAM and lack of peripherals) is much less than that of the CE machines, for the same price.
"...Is this world not a call I can screen out" --
My friend recivied a "Windows CE Development Kit" in the mail, but it (of course) only works with Visual C++. He used it as a cat toy.
I hear that the wireless access on this thing is limited to HTTP access, through a proxy, to things that have a PQA and maybe even a special deal with 3Com. If that's true, that's not cool. Using a Ricochet modem, people in the San Francisco Bay Area can get full, real, bi-directional TCP/IP support on anything going back to the Palm Professional. They can then use any of a large number of Pilot network apps of all descriptions, including things like an SSH client. If that's not possible on the new model, it is a real step backwards (except for the wider service area).
So can you tell us what that service costs, so we can have some idea of what the Palm service might Run? It's always been my impression that the Palm VII will be more like a pager than a real wirelessly connected internet device. Your average /. bandwidth junky would probably be unhappy paying several cents for *every* KB they download.
As a long time (2.5 years) Palm user, I am afraid that 3Com is taking Palm in the wrong direction. The market perception is that Palm is not evolving while the WinCE platform is.
:-)
Yes, the PalmOS doesn't need much RAM, but they really should put more RAM into the little buggers. Color - boy, they've missed the boat on this one. Color always sells more - look TV, the PC and the Mac. Once color became available, nobody wanted monochrome. And the Palm V - people are already referring to them as the "Lady Palm" - just look at their latest ad in Wired! They slimed it down so it will fit in a purse - come on, ladies - what's wrong with wearin' 'em on your belt?
As for programming them, the Palm may be easier to code for than WinCE, but then again, you're coding for a 15 year old Mac SE disguised as a handheld! 16MHz 68000, 2MB RAM, monochrome display, proprietary OS...
I keep eyeing the new WinCE handhelds because I think color is cool but - there's the battery life issue and big bad Microsoft.
How far away is Handspring (Jeff Hawkins/Donna Dubinsky - Pilot creators) away from their initial product?
I have a Palm Pilot, and I am beginning to envy the WinCE machines. I wish that 3Com would start licensing the Palm OS to others so that there would be plenty of different vendors trying to add various new gadgets and competing to build a better and more interesting machine. I _like_ that the Pilot does what I need it to, and no more, but I wouldn't mind seeing other companies experimenting with possibilities.
I don't think 3Com can compete over the long term with dozens of other companies trying to create their own WinCE PDAs.
-Dean
Battery life is everything, color is nothing. Twenty years ago, when a friend was eyeing a color display (it cost $1,200 for a 128x64 pixel display) I bought him a Hasbro Lite-Brite. You want portable color, buy some crayons.
-russ
I have a Pro with a Minstrel; pricing from
Bell Atlantic is $55/month flat rate, and I can
use it anywhere from Boston to DC. Works great
for my purposes.
I don't know if the VII's are using CDPD though.
I've seen at least 3 palm models that weren't made by 3com.
The Ibm Workpad (which was really a plam pro i know)
the symbol pdt1000(or something) that was a palm III with a barcode scanner integrated --for use in inventorying)
there was one other, but i can't think of it
------- Oh damn.... the Sigfile escaped... -Great OM
- color screen :-)
- long-life batteries which recharge when hot-syncing
- a better cpu
- more RAM
- it should work as MP3 player, TV and door-opener
- and have a scanner integrated (you know, like those scanning pens)
- if it could print, that would be nice
- did I mention modem?
- did I mention GPS?
- satellite connectivity would be better than modem, actually
- anything else?
Color is great in a handheld game machine, and sometimes I *have* wished my PalmPilot had some good games! :-) But I mainly use my PalmPilot for my business. It's light, it keeps all my important phone numbers and appointments, and I keep quick light notes and reminders it it. Why do I use a PalmPilot instead of a paper organizer? I can backup my PalmPilot to my PC. After having once lost my old paper organizer I consider that a BIG advantage! I can afford to replace my Pilot (it would hurt.. but I could afford it). The lost information and appointments would cost a *lot* more!!
well, you could always do what i did... buy the IIIx, which has 4mb anyway. I'd be surprised if they didn't offer something like a VIIx when it becomes available. Palm's done a great job with catering to the PDA market so far, I'd be surprised if they stopped realizing what we want and need.
I'm a Palm Developer (Star Pilot mainly). At one point, MS contacted me via email (a real person even, not just a mailing list) and asked if they provided free SDK's and tools for developers would I be interested. I said sure and never heard anything from them again...
Posted by K-Hole:
I have looked at quite a few PDA's recently and I am really drooling over the Palm V and now the Palm VII but I am wondering why thier so expensive.
If you compare them with the machines that run Win CE and that come with 8 megs or more it seems you are getting a lot more for your buck for the Win CE machine.
Is there a specific reason why the Pilot is expensive?
There are several apps to hook a GPS up to your pilot, either a tripmate or any GPS with a screen. I can get my tripmate to run off the serial port of my palm 3 without any trouble, but i would rather use my laptop for it, because keeping the parallel port open like that sucks down the batteries on the palm. now if it was built in, that would be a different story.
is the Qualcomm Palm3/Cell phone. looks far different than most palm systems, the keypad covers most of the screen until you flip it open, and the address book can dial the contacts by clicking on them.
> A couple of VERY nice features are that most of the web sites which you
> hit with the PQAs will warn you if a download is more than 1kb, and on
> the e-mail it will only download the first 500 or so bytes and then tell you
> how much is left, so you can opt to get more, get all that's left, or delete
> the message without spending your KBs for the month.
Now, tell me, how big your Emails? I bet headers may well be about 500 bytes, yes! And how many sites are measured in 1-10kb? None. Of course they do special proprietary making of the websites, optimized, less bulky. But, hey, that KB limit does suck! We are not even talking about 100kb, we talking that you will have to watch yourself of not getting extra KB, reminds me days when Email was priced by KB and I had to pay 3-5 cents per KB. That SUCKED.
About a zillion manufacturers are jumping on the CE bandwagon. The competition tends to drive down prices. That`s about the only thing I can think of.
the press release said the unit will probably cost under $800 (does that mean $799?) and connection costs from $10/month (will there be multiple packages?).
http://www.palm.com/pr/palmvii.html
$450 for an 8M, TFT display, audio in/out jack, 10-hour rechargeable battery, car adapter, upgradable
That thing sucked so much yet lasted ten years beating out 4 competing systems until Nintendo finally released a Game Boy Color which is just has a new screen and color.
Color doesn't matter, it is the ability to market something well and have it easy to read and use.
Their marketing comes from people who find it a cool product and simple to use.
-Forgot password. Sorry.
I'm pretty sure it's only 2 shades of gray (1bpp to 2bpp).
But these are the very things that have made the Palm such a success to this point. The whole point to the Palm devices is that they are simple to use, not that they are powerful enough to be general-purpose computers. Microsoft and the WinCE hardware makers STILL don't get this, and that explains their failure in the market to this point.
"Color always sells more - look TV, the PC and the Mac. Once color became available, nobody wanted monochrome."
Wrong. Just look at the movies - the period of transmission from b/w to colored movies was quite long and not nearly as quick and convincing as the switch from silent movies to talkies...
That all true, the Palm is superior, but it righteous too, to be mad about 3Coms pricing policey and their unimaginative new modells which look just pale compared to the hardware the CE machines are offering for the same price, so 3Com should lower their price for the geeky "pure" Palm or should equip them better.
And dont forget: 3Com is marketing the Palm, but they are not the inventors, they just bought it (they dont seem to be able to do more than selling and re-selling it again and again, repackaged)!
The sound and colors will suck those Palm Pilots clones power supply in 4 hrs.
Color--why bother on a palm-sized device? If you think about what you really use these things for, you'll realise that color doesn't really add anything to the experience. Color screens tend to be harder to read in many lighting conditions, too.
...)
RAM--I had a Cassiopaeia E-11 (8MB RAM) before I got my Palm V (2MB). The RAM on the Palm V goes a lot further than the Cassiopaeia, because of the way that apps are written, and memory is managed.
Input Methods--I used Jot for a month to give it a fair trial. It's nowhere near as good as Graffiti. Win CE allows you to change to a Graffiti mode though, which is good.
MP3--As others have said, with only 16MB RAM, what's the point?
Overall--Win CE devices crash frequently, run slowly, and require multiple taps to achieve the most common tasks. Palm devices are more reliable, react instantly, and do common tasks in 1 tap or character (write a number to create an appointment at that time; write a character to jump there in the address book--Win CE does this to, but only if you tap the Find area to give it the focus;
My REX Pro still beats the palm. Smaller, PCMCIA :- but hey, batteries
type 2. No download apps
last longer and it does what I need.
http://www.franklin.com/rex/
It's a "Personal Data Assistant" not a "Really Small Computer" - people actually want to use these to get work done while in transit or in remote areas, not so they can play quake or mp3s on the subway home. If you want to do that... use your computer.
256MB of RAM? Geeze, I only have 32 in my desktop.
Oh no! Old technology! Kill it! Kill it!
Relax - the SE was a good computer that got the job done admirably. Who cares if it isn't "whiz-bang" - the Palm is useful and cheap (though not nearly as cheap as it could be).
I have a friend whose SE still soldiers on. :-)
My point was that most people don't realize what's under the hood of a Palm. With all the 68000 knowledge out there, it's no wonder that so many people have written such great code for the Palm.
WinCE is purposely difficult to code for - you have to use Bill's tools to get anything done!
Wow, so that means if I carry around a pair of headphones, a microphone, another set of batteries, a car adapter (and a car, damn that'll be heavy) I can use my ce all day. Wow. You know, you make my pilot sound even better..
-?-
Oh yeah, its impossible. All those Windows CE software download sites like www.windowsce.com and cnets download center must be my imagination.
More FUD from a clueless slasdottder kiddie.
Nah, I'm going to hang on to my Newts until something *really* cool comes out. Or until it breaks, whichever comes first.
Cool site BTW.
John Waalkes
jwaalkes@edge.net
Posted by Nedwin_H_Longfellow:
Yeah, I guess this is pretty cool stuff. It's about time though. I wouldn't even consider a PDA until it has FULL network connectivity... otherwise what's the point?
Personally, I'll pass on all this proprietary crap. The sub-notes are getting smaller, the palmtops aren't getting THAT much better. Surely it won't be more than a few years before somebody comes up with a PC-compatible palmtop. That's right, a real PC the size of a palmtop. I want a real processor, real RAM, BIOS, hard drive (maybe solid state, not spinning platter), ports (miniature is fine with me as long as there's a port replicator), and a keyboard and stylus. Then I'll run whatever OS on it I like.
A palmtop, be it PalmOS or CE is just an overgrown graphing calculator. I want a PC that size. Until then I'll stick with my HP48G, my Dayplanner, and my real computers. IMHO the current batch of palmtops are overpriced junk that do a poor job trying to combine all these devices. Surely somebody could make a 486 100Mhz or something the size of a palmtop, couldn't they?
Mike
--
Mike
--
"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
I'm seriously considering buying a Palm:
I want to take down notes and important information, etc. If I have an idea, I don't want to write it on a paper and put in my pocket and lose it.
I could just use a pad of paper, but the attraction of a Palm is being able to send the data to a PC, or back to the Palm, or to another user. Paper info is bulkier and harder to use.
Do Palms have a search function for notes and scraps and such? If I jot notes from a class for example, or a conference, or a business meeting, can I do a search for a keyword or a person, and get back the related notes? You can't search a pad of paper very effectively.
Anyone?
Is it useful to get a Palm for these purposes?
AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
hehe...sounds like someone wants a tri-corder.
:)
Heck, didn't Wired feature some device that detected the temp., barometer, ions, etc.?
They should throw these features in as well
Handspring is rumored to have its first product release by the end of the year.
In response to another person's question about searching on the Palm: yes, the search capabilities are quite good and fast. And there are extensions ("hacks")for regular expressions, etc.
Oh, and I'd kill for a Palm VII. The CE machines are always later than announced, less effective than claimed, and people that buy them stop using them soon after purchase. The MP3 a/v one from Casio is going to be $800-$1000. When it is ever released. Blech.
-bob
I just want:
If they can bring out a good palm machine with 100Mb networking and good email support and probably an addon keyboard with a GOOD (note the word GOOD - none of this shitty windowsterminal rubbish) term program, I'll slap my money down. Immediately. you listening 3com?
Believe with me, my saplings.
if palmsize pc only got 8 MB of ram , he can only store 2 songs (at most). .. because .. when I first know what a PDA is ... i thought it's an electronic device, I never seen anyone of those crash when I input addressbook or anything lke that .... Also whenever I press any button, the corresponding program or function will popup instantly .. .. and pretty slow .... it got the symtoms of win9x and NT .. so I think it's a computer ...
Also i think CE is a Small Computer
but CE craches alot
It seems not... At least my experience, prior to owning a Palm was that I thought they were toys. "Who would want one of those things?" I used to say.
Shortly after owning my Palm, which I purchased only because I thought I was going to write some software for it, I realized that "handheld computer" is the wrong paradigm and "data acquisition device" is the correct one.
Now I'm a total convert. And how cool is it to sync with my notebook computer with just a click of a button? A friend of mine uses CE. Syncing anything except the address book is a major pain in the processor, I mean brain.
WinCE Toolkit = $190, Visual C++ = much more. Pretty expensive to write a "Hello world" type apps.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
Do Palms have a search function for notes and scraps and such?
It has a global search function that looks for strings in everything. Applications provide hook functions for searching, so data formats are handled in some meaningful way.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
My Palmpro runs for like 1-2 months on a set of batteries. not 12 hours. that is the biggest CE problem is that it dies so quickly. not that the O/S is particularly wonderful either.
Stuart Eichert
U. of PENN student/FreeBSD hacker
Stuart Eichert
I think you are right on with this one. I own a computer at home and use that for computation purposes. I use my palm for nothing more than its basic functions (address, schedule, to do, short notes). I think palm apps should focus around the sharing and acquisition of data. If we get really abstract we can see ourselves as part of the data network carrying an interface device(the palm) and using it to send and receive data with people we meet in person.
Stuart Eichert
U. of PENN student/FreeBSD hacker
Stuart Eichert
Ya know, it's really hard for me to take a post from ANYONE advocating M$ products seriously after the halloween documents. They've tried to simulate grass roots in the past; I have no reason to believe they're not still trying.
Anyone been to Defcon and played "Spot the Fed", where members of the audience try to guess who in the audience around them work for a federal agency? I wonder how "Spot the M$ Fern" would go over..
I can see where the MP3 might be of interest, but I don't know how video would come in handy in a low mem tiny unit. If the MP3's were put on a flash card, you must deal with the high cost of said cards, and also their limited life.
With only 16MB of RAM, you can't play a whole lot of mp3's either. That 16MB also uses up a lot of battery juice keeping the memory running. Even with the Lithium Ion batteries, a color display combined with that RAM still won't even come close in battery life to the Palm systems.
Color displays use up a lot of battery power. What on earth do you need color for in a pocket organizer anyway? In that link to a FAQ that was provided, in answer to the question "Are color screens important or useful?"; the only answer was "We think so." No actual reason that this might be useful for other than "Wow" value was provided. It then talked about a portable photo album app that still doesn't seem too useful. If you want a portable game machine, buy one.
And oh yeah, a huge amount of that 16MB of RAM is inhaled with WinCE overhead, (which inhales CPU cycles as well) and along with that, you must use an interface on a 4-inch screen that was designed first for desktop monitors.
Also, the upgradeablility of these machines is uncertain. With the Palm systems, I can upgrade a Palm 1000 to a Palm III (without backlighting or the more compact design) in a few minutes using a reasonlably priced upgrade card. I am not aware that ANY of the WinCE vendors are upgrading their first generation units.
Dude. You don't get it. You are going to play mp3s and video on a palm computer? Where exactly are you going to store them? Last time I checked those things didn't have hard drives. Have you ever used a Windows CE device? Can you say Slooooww?
Good point. The only thing I would like to see (not sure if they have it yet) is a screen that was true b&w. That is, like black type on bleached, William Randolph Hearst brand white paper. I much preferred web pages with background color simply because they could have white, rather than grey, backgrounds.
Who cares about color? Now really. While the CE boxen are rather neet, everyone is missing the point of the palm pilot. Its a hacking toy. It does wonderful things with the IR port, it plays addicting chessey games, its keeps things in it that you would normally use a little scrap of paper for, and then loose it when you need it most. If you want video, or good sound, quit being cheap, buy a laptop. If you want something thats fun to play with, and functional, get a pilot. I have a palm III, I wouldnt trade it for a ce box, not matter all the bells and whistles. And, the reason ce is doing so well, is m$ has the monopoly. If 3com was wise, they would adapt a version of palm os for the other pdas, even add keyboard support in for it... or hey, maybe even adapt a tiny version of linux that takes full advantage of the features... hmmmmm. btw, if ya cant learn the graphiti alphabet, there is something wrong :)
"Network penetration is network engineering, in reverse."
My PalmPro crashes every once in awhile too requiring the old paper clip input method. *Usually* it's when running third party apps, but once or twice it happened when I was just trying to view the memory info and delete an app. It just kept crashing the machine when I tried to even view the info. Had to completely wipe it and start from scratch. Thankfully my laptop isn't that unstable running Linux. ;-)
Also stuff happening this side of the pond - EPOC based machines will be emerging in a number of guises as announced at CeBIT.
CeBIT: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/special/ 19symbian.html
Ericsson R380: http://www.symbian.com/co rporate/news/1999/pr990318a.html
Ericsson MC218: http://5alive.psionking.com/Ar chives99/Mar19_185.htm
Personally I'm waiting for the Psion 5 with Java, but the phones are interesting.
100Mb networking? WTF do you need that for in a hand-held device? You'd fill up all the available memory with a download in less than a second! I couldn't care less if it was 9600bps as long as it's completely wireless and has decent range. I'm sure as hell not going to drag a 100ft ethernet cable around with me on my "handheld" device. Might as well just plug in a power cord as well. ;-)
Yeah, but that's what bothers me about this palmtop trend. WinCE machines (can we call them machines? no moving parts...) keep getting bigger and bigger. Some of them at my local CompUSA are the size of the Sony VAIO 505F I just bought (lessee.. Crap operating system, 8-bit color, small amount of ram; compared to Linux 2.1.7, 64M of RAM, 4.1GB hard drive, built in sound, MPEG-2 built in, 56k modem built in, the list of features just goes on. WinCE box: 2.4 lbs, Vaio 505F: 2.9 lbs), and they do so much less. So, want something that's palm-sized? Look into the Toshiba Libretto. It's a REAL COMPUTER in the space of a VCR cassette.
The real power comes from using PQAs. PQAs easy for anybody to create and limit the amount of data being transfered. My understanding is that any web page can be grabbed as well. It all does go through a proxy server. Maybe somebody could get us more details on this.
Actually, IMHO the gameboy was popular since its on-time battery life could be measured in WEEKS! This was due to their CPU (Z80) / Greyscale screen choice.
:-)
The Sega Game Gear was measured in hours (if I remember rightly). It had a colour screen and a backlight sucking power away. Same with the Atari Lynx.
On a side note, my friend once hooked up one of these gameboys to an "alternate" power source... a full size laptop battery. The On-Time was measured in MONTHS then...
Why don't you make a pc that isn't proprietary, and one that doesn't suck sh*t when it coems to upgrading. This little trash device you guys make is probably like your pcs--dirty.
When we deal with a PDA, we ONLY care about getting the job done - turn on, get schedule/memo/calendar, turn off. Who cares about colors? Colors would only drain batteries to death. I want a PDA that would last very long without recharging. I want something that could do that job. After adding colors, MS cut CE's operating hours from around 20 down to 8 or so.
Sure, the sound recording on PalmCE sounds interesting, but what quality do they give you? 8 kHz Mono at 8-bit? That's nothing.
And for PC Card, how many people actually plug-in a ethernet PC card anyway? I assume that people are FAR AWAY from their LAN if they use a PDA. Else, why not just launch OutLook?
RAM! Do I need to install 16 games to fill up 16 MB of RAM when all I need from a PDA is my contact? If I want games, I would go for a GameBoy!
Palm III/V have all I wanted. Speed, size, good backlighting. CE? Cut the overhead!
PDA means PDA. If not, why doesn't HP include a 1394 port in their next Jornada to provide "DIGITAL video-editing on the road"???
Yeah I love things that run for 30 minutes before I replace the batteries. If you want color and games then go get one of those same 3 dollar games at Radio Shack.
They almost all say "upgradable Microsoft Windows CE" so I have to wonder just how far that can go... people are working on embedded Linux now, so why not a tiny Linux kernel and a tiny X server and stuff..? Now THAT would be a Righteous Hack(tm) =). I'm sure that if you can't replace the ROM, you could get a flash card and do something like what LILO does in Windows/DOS on the PC.
Yeah, I know "WHY??". If you ask that question on such a topic though then you probably missed the point. ^_-
- size
- battery life
- apps(!)
Colors, buttons and other fancy stuff are unnecessary. The Palm platform has got all three. The Palm V excels in the size department and never runs of out batteries, and I'll bet it'll sell better than the Palm IIIx because of it - despite the need for all new accessories.Palm has the apps, and it'll be around for another 10 years. The portable market has an entirely different dynamic than the desktop market. Microsoft hasn't figured that out, and that's why WinCE isn't going anywhere fast.
Yeah, and I just have to boot to windows to sync the thing, right?
-- Max
if you want all that you might as well to get a cheap libretto. ACTIVE COLOR! YEAH!
and you get to choose your OS. can your "color palm thing" do that?
hehehe
let me remind you that palmpilot last for months. what's the use of a palm computer if it dies every 10 hours?
Get a libretto 50CT about the same price, you get something with a real OS.
2bpp would be 4 greys not 2.
-db
The WinCE machines offer a lot of functionality for the money on paper but I guess if you used one for a time you wouldn't be as happy with it as with a Palm. I bought a Psion 5 because I had had a 3a which I loved but I wanted a bit more functionality. After the novelty wore off I got really pissed off with it. The batteries lasted no time and the lithium backup was eaten twice losing all my data. My old 3a hardly ever had its batteries replaced and NEVER lost its data even when dropped 4 feet onto a tiled floor. Sure it cracked open but snapped back together it was fine. After a year of the Psion 5 I had enough and decided to replace it. I thought the Palms were too expensive for what they offered but, in truth, all the extra functionality of the Psion 5 was never really used. I wanted an easy to use data manager that kept me company just like my old Newton used to do. The Palm IIIx is the best machine I have bought (although the Psion 3a comes close). Its easy to use, fast and reliable. Graffiti is easy to learn and the short-cuts etc make the machine a joy. I don't know the ins-and-outs of Palm OS but there seems to be a simplistic elegance that mirrors Linux. Anyway, how well does a WinCE machine work with Linux??? The Palm is just fine. I agree its a little too expensive but it gets the job done and that's the real point.
"Real processor and BIOS" ... Must something be compatible with the IBM PC to be considered a 'real' computer? The whole beauty of a new hardware platform is the chance to be free of legacy baggage. Even Intel recognizes this ('legacy-free PC').
From a personal standpoint, wearable computing is awesome :) My unit will be completed tomorrow, $2600 for a am5x86 133 processor, 36 megs of ram, ethernet, 3.2 gig hd, etc.. Its a very nice system with a good looking HMD (head mounted display) Ill never go palmtop !
Well, yeah it'd be 4 total colors, but only 2 greys. In binary:
00 - white
01 - grey #1
10 - grey #2
11 - black
at least i assume that's how it would be done.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
my new PC is tiny, the largest parts is the case and the connectors... Unfortunately due to the size of standard pc's people have forgotten that when we get smaller pc's we need smaller ports. I could put together a machine using pc104 arch (cheaper) or DimmPC (expensive, smaller, slower) which could do the work of any standard pc but the ports would be the largest, possibly with the advent of USB we will be able to chain devices over a single tiny port. But the question is, how much do you plan to spend on a PDA ?
/w motherboard $400
Am5x86 133 Processor
SiS Video Chipset, 2 megs ram (integrated)
4 megs onboard edo ram: upgradable to 68 megs
flatpanel lcd display ~$160
standard ports $17
48 meg solid state disk +$100 (unsure about this, probally more)
~= $717
not including a custom-built enclosure and we would probally need drivers for the touch screen on the lcd. Sounds pretty cheap, but then consider price of batteries (depending on how long you want it to run) and sound would involve more money + space...
I don't think 3Com can compete over the long term with dozens of other companies trying to create their own WinCE PDAs.
Note items 3 and 4.
MS's handheld tactics so far:
Write crappy, bug ridden OS while hyping the vaporware until the gullible press is in a frenzy.
Spend millions convincing hardware companies to invest even more millions developing hardware for it.
Dictate exact hardware requirements to manufacturers, preventing them from innovating on their own, so all the resulting units are essentially identical, generic commodities.
Make as much money as possible licensing the OS while the competition between hardware vendors cuts their margins to pennies per unit.
Revise crappy OS and hardware requirements, try to steal the name and market of the very innovator that created the market.
Don't bother to think about what works and why it works, just more and more questionable "features" in there until the hardware screams for another upgrade.
Repeat as necessary, using monopoly profits and the resulting desperation of the hardware vendors, the press, and MS toadies to whip them in line.
Notes:
MS doesn't care about the hardware competition, and the vendors can't afford to cut prices because they have too much of a vested interest right now.
I tracked the inventory of the WinCE 1 units we received. We had to sell them each an average of SIX times before the damned things stayed sold.
My own tracking of the WinCE 2 units reveals that they aren't much better at "staying out the door."
You could say greyscale only drains the battery. Or that graphics is a waste and they should have used a lower power processor and a text only display.
The reality is that color screens are easier to read: for those people that drop their PDA into its dock every night, or who leave it docked on their desk half the day, 10 hours of battery life is plenty. But thats not the point: the real point is that color WinCE devices _and_ greyscape devices are available. There is a choice. 3Com doesn't offer a choice.
Its the same issue with memory. 3Com say "who needs more than 4 megs of memory? No one." The WinCE manufactures say "we'll give you as much memory as you think you need." Guess what? Certain applications haven't been made available on the Palm Pilots because they don't have enough memory. Medical applications are an excellent example. WinCE is going to _own_ the medical market within 6 months and 3Com will never have a chance to catch up -- mostly due to the memory issue.
In 16 megabytes I can fit a drug book, a text on internal medicine and records on all of my current patients. In 2 megabytes (like the Palm V) I can manage my contacts and some of my patients. With 4 megs (like the 3x) I can add in a small drug book. Its a not even a competition. Add in the fact that the CE devices can take expansion cards (adding up to 128 megs of flash memory!) and the potential for everything from electronic stethoscopes or dopplers and you realize just how big this is going to be.
I almost feel bad for 3Com.
- N
According to some "inside" industry information I have, at least a few of the new color WinCE PDAs have TFT color screens that are visible "in any light". Personally, I don't know how they'll do this. Screen makers have tried this for years. But it would only make sense, seeing as you don't want a constant backlight on 2 AA's, eh?
i happened to see one of these the other day:
- localized information - "click here for local weather" - has lots of potential
- the new screen is like the Palm V screen - also excellent
- query app docs are good/query apps should be easy to build
- insert acclaim from initial post here
bad stuff:
- metering sucks $$$
- e-mail app isn't linked to address book! you have to re-enter the e-mail address
low prices would encourage broad adoption. i hope they go that route.
well you know EPOC symbian style
know what im talking about ? no?
oh well here we go
first of all Colour (im in the UK) is on the new PSION it is 32 bit and comes in 2 model's one a bit like the palm but smaller and NO scribbling (handwriting recognition ) PSION think that most of the stuff is checking Box's and basic entry don't ask me I haven't seen this one !
But what I have seen is colour sub notebook if that the right term for it psion have always been the king when it came to keyboards in a small way hell typing on a CE machine doesn't cut it !
they are very cool!
psion batteries last weeks/months not the days stuff and they are doing it again !!(advanced batterys like those sony wanted to use)
full word (a WP), as in their word that is in the OS and has a word count A Novelty for CE machines they make you go get one of the net ! bah
import export from all major WP hell I want one to KEEP
and this stuff is going to be on a mobil phone soon ! hah not for the peoples of USA tho as feds wont let them use GSM as they cant break it.
ah well sorry guys but you chose the wrong path as 3com has a 40% share in Symbian so they will use it soon it is far superior to 3Com palm OS lets face it
go ahead make my day quote some figures !
Same here. I usually get 2 months life out of my batteries.
;-)
We have several CE machines here, and the biggest gripe we have are the lack of battery life.
On the plus side though, we've got a new helpdesk system arriving soon, and it supports Palm and not CE!
Java gaming nut - http://www.retep.org/ or for the rail http://uktra.in/
I'll buy your old Psion5 anyday. Those extra functions are great for ontheroad working.
andsand@af.lu.se
-----
forgot my pass...
I'm now on my second Palm device (just upgraded to Palm IIIx, which has 4 MB and a better screen, and a free slot for future upgrades).
PalmOS has its limitations but the key thing is that the built-in apps are small, efficient, easy to learn, while there is a plethora of excellent third party apps, and PalmOS is very reliable as long as you run decent apps. Its uptime is measured in days, while my NT laptop (with 96MB) has an uptime of days before a reboot is required for some reason.
Above all, Palm devices are really quick - I can search 320 address book entries in 4 seconds on the IIIx, and in 10 seconds on my P233 laptop using Outlook and NT (identical data and search). Outlook is even slower searching our company contacts database, and I can probably now fit this into my IIIx if needed.
And of course, there are Palm development tools available for almost every operating system - Windows, Mac, Linux, *nix, etc. Try syncing a WinCE machine with non-Microsoft apps and OSs...
I was at the IETF last week, and it's interesting to note that at least some of the Microsoft people there use Palm devices!
well the hp48gx isn't a new thing but it has it all: IR-Port (use it as a remote control), COM-Port (9600 bps), programming language, 2 expansion slots (up to 1280K memory) and REAL BATTERY LIFE.
It's actually a Gameboy deluxe.
...i almost forgot: it's also a scientific calc
Do you have any pics that you could post? I would be interested in seeing pics and perhaps a "journal"/plans for building one.
--
Posted by keithahern:
I played with a Palm VII a few months ago. This thing (if the price is right) is going to sell millions of units, why ? * I clicked on the yahoo email lookup, entered my name and city - pressed 'go' 7 seconds later after 3-4 seconds of actually using the wireless service I had my email address returned to me. * I clicked on traffic - 7 seconds later - traffic on all the roads around me (it knows where you are - due to using the cellphone network) * I clicked on an ATM locator and got 6 within a half mile. * I checked my bank balance.. * I almost ordered movie tickets... The above scenarios add up to 30-40 seconds of actually using the wireless service. RESULT * Battery life people! * 'just the facts' responses. The Palm VII rocks.
The Casio device will cost as much as a palm V and do 10 times more (it's the fastest device released to date). Once you see the 65K color screen playing a jurassic park movie clip, decoding mp3, playing compelling games, and showing pics from your digital camera (oh yeah...it does all of the other things you rationalize your $400 purchase with too - pim, notes, etc. ) you will never look back. This is one sweet machine!
You will also be able to by these devices within the next 8 weeks. If I were Palm, I'd be telling you to think "simple" too - it's all they have.
This is the same dialog that was cirulating in the early 80's around the mac and the pc. people duck their heads in the sand and try to ignore the things they can't do anything about. think about it. haven't you ever wanted to do anything else with your palm device? if simple is all you wanted, why don't you just buy a cheap casio boss or a used psion? if you have the opportunity to do more, at the same or less cost and the overall solution is more compelling wouldn't you do it? If you say no, then you are religious - If you say yes then you'll love the new Casio E-100
I really want to keep this unit, but I'll have to give it back when the field trial is done so they can get the not-really-production units out of circulation before the real units go out.
-Q
And boy is it ever! Are there programming tools for the HP-48gx for Linux?
Uh so? He didnt say "free" tools.
BTW, there are other options other than VC++ or VB if you get your head out of the Linux FUD cloud.
I have a few pictures and such, and am designing a webpage about it and such... Ill email you with more information when I make it available :P
The only thing that opens on the unit is
the battery compartment.
I hope that
the good folks at Palm Computing/3COM will
reconsider this and make it more like the
IIIx, which if my memory serves has 4 MB of RAM and an open expansion slot in the rear.
Yeah, but the network we use at work is all 100MB, and I want to be able to get all my email through there, etc. I couldn't tive a damn aboutthe speed to be honest, it's the connectivity that's important.
Believe with me, my saplings.