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Ask Slashdot: Handheld Linux, Today?
Jesse Montrose asks:
"I'd like to find out what others are doing about the urge
to carry Linux around. I currenly live in Linux on a
Thinkpad 560, but it's something of a commitment to bring
along with me. Linux on a Psion series5 is exciting, and
I'll keep an eye on
their progress, a 340MB CFFlash would hold a nice
text-only distribution. The various mini-laptops are also
interesting, if weak on battery life (ie the Libretto,
IBM's PC110, and the sexy new VAIO PCG-C1 which is due in
the US around March 15). There are a lot of active projects,
but is anyone using a handheld Linux solution right now
that they recommend?"
nthomas isn't so picky.
All he wants is a "handheld...in the $500-$1300 range".
What say you all?
I've found (from my experiences with writing stuff for PalmOS) that I don't really care what API I'm writing to, as long as:
(1) it is simple and well-crafted to the problem domain (which PalmOS's API is)
(2) I can do my development work under some Unix.
Linux is a great development environment. However, I don't need to do "development" on my palmtop. That's what desktop computers are for.
Well not really, but it's close...
I recently bought myself a Nokia 9110 Communicator that has (among other Internet tools) a pretty good Telnet client built-in. I connect to my personal Linux box and enjoy the power of a full Linux installation a fast CPU, plenty of HD & full time Internet.
Looking everywhere, but can not find a used omnibook 800 for around 800.....
Hah! That's nothing!
I'm running Zipslack on my 8Mb ram 810Mb HDD Compaq Lite with the TinyX distribution.
It also dual boots into Windows95(I use it to remind myself how *not* to build an OS)
Perhaps this is more suitable for a separate "Ask SlashDot" but....
I am trying to create a handheld screen-less Linux server that would
I have to run 95 on my company laptop, and I have to run NT on my company workstation. I also use a SUN workstation and several SGI servers. At home I run linux/95/NT depending on what I am doing (95: DX6 games, NT: Q2/BG/HL, Linux: Programing/surfing etc).
I am trying to create a handheld server that I would carry with me where ever I go. The server would be a central repository for all of my email and important files. What ever workstation I am at, NT/95/Linux/SGI/Sun, would interface to the server using NFS/Samba/X/VNC etc.
This handheld server would have to meet the following requirements:
Small:
I will be carrying this in addition to my laptop. If it is much bigger than a handheld my laptop case will burst.
Power:
Battery power must be an option.
Rugged/Fault Tollerant
This will be the home of my email and important files failure is not an option.
Fast Ethernet:
VNC/X/Samba loves bandwidth. I want everything on the server to "feel" like it is local to whatever platform I am currently using as a workstation.
Monitor:
Not needed. I will be using either a PC or Sun or SGI (or palmpilot?) to interface to the pocket server.
OS:
OS must share files with Nix' 95 NT, and provide easy monitor-less administration. Cost is important as this is out of my own pocket. I am flexible but the "only" answer appears to be Linux or one of the BSD's. Yes, you can Add an NFS server to NT and even a telnet daemon or use VNC (or can I without a video card?), but by the time you are done you would have spent about $500 on the OS/NFS alone. Hell, that's a Ski vacation, I'll use linux and go skiing....
Storage:
6GB would be a good start, but ideally I would like to get something around 12GB.
Any suggestions?
I have a Toshiba Portege 610CT that fits my need for portable linux. It's not as small as a palmtop, but it has a smaller footprint than most laptops (but is rather thick ~1.25"). It has a 90mhz pentium, 24megs of ram (soon to be 40), a 1.3gig drive, a 9.5" or so LCD (that runs 640x480x16.5million). It has no external drives (I had to install using a scsi boot disk, pcmcia root disk with an Adaptec 1460A SlimSCSI card and a CD-R drive). It runs Slackware 3.5 just fine. I mainly use it for toying around with linux whenever I get the urge. It runs X with Blackbox reasonably well. I get about 2.5hours out of the battery.
The only problem I have is that many windows in X open at 640x480 or larger. It takes some configuration to get things to open smaller.
Chris
I have a Toshiba Portege 610CT that fits my need for portable linux. It's not as small as a palmtop, but it has a smaller footprint than most laptops (but is rather thick ~1.25"). It has a 90mhz pentium, 24megs of ram (soon to be 40), a 1.3gig drive, a 9.5" or so LCD (that runs 640x480x16.5million). It has no external drives (I had to install using a scsi boot disk, pcmcia root disk with an Adaptec 1460A SlimSCSI card and a CD-R drive). It runs Slackware 3.5 just fine. I mainly use it for toying around with linux whenever I get the urge. It runs X with Blackbox reasonably well. I get about 2.5hours out of the battery.
The only problem I have is that many windows in X open at 640x480 or larger. It takes some configuration to get things to open smaller.
Chris
mtnbkr@mindspring.com
What about throwing something together using PC104 SBC, and laptop hard drives.
Should be able throw something together for $700 or so, if you don't mind an AMD/Pentium 200 for speed.
Fast Ethernet may be a problem as I have only seen 10-Base-T......
I tried toting around my laptop from work (PII 266, 128MB, 6GB, 98/NT DB...) but it's just too big. I used to have an Omnibook 800CT, but that too was a little large for protable purposes. I asked myself, "Self, why do you want to carry around a laptop?" I got back, "well, you want all of your contacts and calendar so you don't miss meetings or lose phone numbers." Nearly two years worth of a Franklin REX and I'm still happy, although I had to upgrade to the REX Pro... Now if they would just make it a pager too :)
Works great for file serving to your NT workstation.
Use VNC to administer it from the NIX world and use smbfs or SHARITY to access files from the unix workstations.
Of course if you want to do any programing 95 will lock up and die if you blink at it sidesways, but hey you can't have everything.....
There's a place in the valley selling Velo 1s with 8mb ram/4mb flash for 100 (+ 30 for the cable). Anybody know if Linux can be/has been ported to it? Is there any description of the hardware so that linux *could* be ported?
I have an Omnibook 800 with the Pentium 166 MMX. It came with Win95, but I remedied that pretty quickly :-) It runs the hell out of Debian Linux, although I am still playing around with 2.0.35 kernel. Also, I pretty much HAD to upgrade the memory (16 MB RAM runs out in a hurry).
I paid $810 for mine in an online auction back in October '98. It was a HP demo model, but it was well treated.
Yes, I love it. I've really been wanting to find someone who has linux ported to NEC vr4110/4111, though. I've been looking at a Sharp TriPad. If I could get a small linux distro with a reduced X on it, I'd be a VERY happy camper!
Here's a u.s. source for the "biscuit" computer mentioned above:
_ Guide.htm#5.25
....
/.
http://www.omnipro.net/pages/embedded/Selection
Board is $500, wiring kit, $50, CPU, memory, hard drive, case
By the time you are done, total cost will be around a $1000 for a P200.
For that price, You are better off configuring your laptop as a server, OR, getting a second small laptop just for linux.
Perhaps you could get a small used laptop and gut it, take out everything you don't need, keyboard, display, etc, package it in a smaller case....
Probably violate all sorts of regs....
if you burn down your office, don't say you got the idea on
I am very happy with linux on the libertto 50ct. With APM enabled it gets about 2 hours (I take notes in pico through a class) on the standard battery. On the enhanced battery it should be up to 4 hours as the enhanced battery is exactly two times the capacity... Also remeber... for the wieght of a standard laptop I could get something like 8 hours of runtime. The libretto isn't a speed deamon P-75 but it does linux just fine and cost me $500. Good luck :-)
Linux and X run just fine on my libretto 70ct. You can find more info (including video chipsets) at http://www.cerfnet.com/~adorable/libretto.html.
"The only path to here and now is the one that you have traveled" - Music From Here
Thanks for the excellent web page.
It looks like you had no problems getting X working. Glad to here it.
The Accelerated Xi Graphics people (www.xig.com), the makers of the accelerated X server product say on there web page that XFree won't work on the PCG-C1X. Hmmm, sounds like they are trying to trick people into buying their $200 laptop product.
Bookwrm, could you post some x11perf numbers, I wondering how fast the NeoMagic chip is with XFree since Xig.com won't do the comparison.
I've got a Philips Velo 500... with WinCE... anybody want to buy it for say $450? .. it's a nice machine, with a 28.8 modem and 16m ram... but it just ain't linux...
Kevin Collins
viper@prominence.dyn.ez-ip.net
If I could find a version of Ecco Pro (best pim in the world) and "Informs" (worst forms program in the world, but work mandates it) that would run under WINE I would put Linux on my laptop in a heart beat.
Requirements of running NT/95 are driven by my employer......
Many people are in a similar situation. They normally dual boot when they want linux, but I want Linux all the time and my back is not strong engough for two laptops...
Calibri looks great!
Only 10-Base-T and P133, can't wait to see what they do with the Calibri-300.
Suprised there is not more of an effort for small take-anywhere network attachable servers.
All of the pieces are out there, and it would be way useful for power users w. multiple computers to have a central server for all their stuff.....
Note: This is RedHat based.
To make instal painless all you need to do is a PLIP (Parallel IP) install. You get about 60K/sec over the parallel port so it takes a while... but its the only supported way because it doesn't need a suplamental disk. BTW: PCMCIA floppy works great after you install it.
The libretto is great for carrying around :-) I don't even notice the 2 lbs on my shoulder even when I carry it around for an entire day. It fits in a case logic CD player bag.
Oh, for a kernel-loadable Psion Link Protocol fs...
/me has been known to use his S5 as an emergency terminal...
OTP as in One Time Passwords, we're on Slashdot here...
I don't see the value in handheld Linux. Linux (UNIX in general) has grown to be a rather bulky swiss-army knife. Specialized OS devices with the ability to share data via RF or IR back to a UNIX box make more sense to me. Faster, smaller, simpler.
I'm currently running Linux on a pair of PC110's for travelling. The PC110 is a little slow nowdays but works well. Battery life is acceptable. I did the 2.0.37pre6 release in Austria on a PC110.
There is also a work in progress port to the Psion5 and the Geofox.
The biggest problem is GUI, but I'm hoping glueing together mini-x and Bogl or some similar tools will solve that problem. The other myth is that unix is too bulky for a PDA. V7 ran on a machine that makes the psion5 look like a supercomputer.
Alan
I think Linux would be an excellent OS compared to WinCE on PDAs. These device are getting really fast and powerful. One good thing about Windows being so inefficient is that is boosts the hardware development. Look at the new Cassiopeia Palm size PDA from Casio: 131Mhz, 64k colors, 16M RAM, compact-flash, etc. Imagine running Linux on it!
e nt&Microprocessors&V(*R*)+Series(TM)+64-Bi t+MIPS(R)+RISC&V(*R*)4100(TM)+Family&VR4111&ALL&AL L&ALL&ALL&&
h tml
http://www.casio.com/hpc/e-100.cfm
There are some people who are thinking about making this happen: GCC Target for mips-based windows(R) CE handhelds
http://hyperion.clc.cc.il.us/~arty/
Here are the NEC Hardware specs for the MIPS-based CPUs that are used in the Cassiopeias:
http://www.necel.com/home.nsf/CreatePage?OpenAg
Perhaps companies like Algorithmics Ltd. might be interested in helping to port Linux to another MIPS platform?
http://www.algor.co.uk/algor/info/porters.html
Here are a few more references for those who are interested in Linux on more than x86.
Current ports of Linux OS:
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/xose/linux/linux_ports.
Compaq's ITSY PDA which is running Linux and other GNU software:
http://www.research.digital.com/wrl/itsy/
GNUton:
http://www.gnuton.com/
I have installed Slackware 3.6 on my bosses Libretto 50CT. It works beautifully, though the installation was quite difficult as you can have a floppy or a NIC. This lead to some really interesting loadlin commands, basically I needed to make a fat partition on the hard disk and put vmlinuz and the rootfile there. Then I used loadlin to load the ramdisk (initrd), set the root to /dev/ram0, then booted the kernel with the NIC in.
Unfortunately the only public NFS server w/ slackware we could find was in China so it took about a week to install. But it works great, and having a portable UNIX is just cool.
--
Charles P. Wright
cpwright@villagenet.com
http://cpwright.villagenet.com/
Charles P. Wright
cpwright@villagenet.com
http://cpwright.villagenet.com/
I still want an Itsy.
Posted by AnnoyingMouseCoward:
/.er, therefore you are, by definition, technologically sophisticated.
You are a
Hand-helds are for the "technologically challenged" ( read : the people who find "point and click" too hard ).
This may seem like a very trite and patronizing attitude, but as someone who has written applications on handhelds, I know the general level of technological expertise of that end of the user base all too well.
Believe me, it's not a pretty sight.
I picked up a used libretto 20ct.
It's a 486/75 that comes with a 270MB hd.
I recommend upgrading that immediately.
I picked up a 4G HD for it on onsale. cost me under $200. it runs a standard rh5.2 distro quite easily. I had to do a bit of mucking around with loadlin to get the install going, but since I had a local NFS server, it was no big deal.
There are a bunch of links off of the 'adorable libretto' page to get you up and running quickly, so dont worry about 'no support'
It's got a combo nic/modem card and it was extremely easy to get configured for home/work/hotels/etc.
I would totally recommend this machine or it's predecessors for a carry-around machine. it doesn't take up any space in my bag even with an extra battery and power supply. I can even pop it in my coat pocket if I feel like travelling light.
As far as usability goes, I'm extremely impressed. The keyboard is small, but what do you expect for such a tiny machine? once you get the hang of it, it's no big deal. The pointer is a little funky too, but I dont do a lot of mousing anyway.
all in all, I dig it.
yeah, FreeBSD for NEC MobileGear, built by japanese, it has to be cool (tm) ;)
http://www02.u-page.so-net.ne.jp/ca2/takemura/
takemura-san's webpage is mostly in japanese, but enjoy the pictures!
mustapha
Yeah, but how are you going to get the ROM out of the WinCE machine for refund day? :)
I run Linux full-time on my Portege (one of the ultra-thin ones). I've never been happier with a mobile machine. I also have a wireless LAN, so it makes it easy to walk around and stay connected. A Portege setup like mine can be had today for ~$1800-$1900 (Pentium 266, 96MB RAM, 4GB HD, 10.4 inch 800x600 display).
-Mark
Did you get that to work?
Yes and no. There's value in running Linux on a handheld because it simplifies interaction with Linux desktops -- document sharing being the most common example probably. It also moves development into a common space.
I disagree also about handhelds being just for information access. Handhelds are great for filling out forms, and will do in a pinch for writing email or a letter. Good for games too. The 'Jupiter' WinCE devices would be outstanding for most peoples computing needs -- truly portable, long battery life, instant on (!), more rugged (no HD), etc. -- if only the OS didn't suck. The Sharp TelMail would be a slick little email machine with a few improvements and a non-proprietary way of dialing-up...
Basicly, I think most people's work could be done easier with specialized devices than with desktop machines. There's value in having a common low-level OS underneath them, and a GNU/GPL one best of all. What's needed is for porting work to continue alongside the development of a handheld-appropriate desktop/window manager. And then some distros. (At this point I'm talking somewhat out my butt, 'cause I don't program.)
Somewhere I read Linus saying something to this effect -- that handheld space is the next important arena. Anyone remenber where?
As far as technical info on WinCE, I can't speak to that too well. Like I said, I'm not a programmer. From what I understand, MS has tried to mimic Windows95 APIs in CE to simplify things for programmers. That makes some sense. Technical unknowns aside, the interface for CE is one of the reasons the machines haven't been selling very well (despite some wonderful engineering on the hardware side). It is still far too complicated and inconsistent for a palmtop, or even a sub notebook.
On a palmtop, you want to do things with one tap or gesture whenever possible. That's not something a 'start' bar does very well (start--> address book--> name field--> (letter/s)--> find--> done, or more...). You get the idea. Now, there are reports that MS is still working on major revisions of CE, so things should improve there.
'WinCE sucks' was probably a bit dramatic. I'd say more that it's mediocre, like most MS software. Still, it may be the best choice out there in some respects. Your other choices are presumably palm or epoc (psion), later on maybe Apeiron (Sony). Finally, the best hope is probably for the porting of some scripting languages (perl, python, tcl/tk) to different handheld OSes.
You might also browse around http://www.pdadash.com/news/ , a pda news site I like.
*Sniff sniff*
*Sniff sniff*
I smell passwords!
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
Java (when it was Oak) was created for a handheld SPARC. Unfortunately, they couldn't put that much power in a handheld and still hit their price point. It was basically a PalmPilot, but too early.
-russ
The 50CT will do 640x480, and some of the newer models (100CT and 110CT) will do 800x480. Both can do 1024x768 (or higher?) on an external monitor.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
I still prefer my PalmPilot, but I would be interested in attempting to develop Linux for it.
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
The machine is pretty nice. The keyboard is fairly large, considering, and the feel is acceptable. The 1024x480 provides a fair amount of screen space, if oddly shaped. With a few utilities added, it takes the place of a low-end digital camera, a portable music CD player (MP3s), and makes a nice portable development box.
The base box is a pretty penny right now (~$2300) though that will probably drop over time. I was looking at a Libretto, but decided to go for broke (sic.) All of the built-in hardware (except for the camera -- still looking at that) appears to be supported just fine under Linux.
I think I prefer the 1024x480 screen resolution over 800x600. I can fit two Xterms comfortably side by side in 1024x480, which is harder to do in 800x600.
The technology is certainly interesting to watch. The PCG-C1X strikes me as being almost a concept laptop that snuck out into production. Give it five years, and you could have a laptop with built-in DVD, 5 hours of useful battery life, a better built-in camera, and wireless connectivity. Phone, video-condferencing, music, movies, digital photography, word processing, software development, etc. all in a hand held box. The social/cultural changes from that could be interesting.
I haven't looked at the specs on the Qualcom PDQ, but it's a phone with a built in Palm Pilot. Since I work in the Car Navigation industry, I've experimented a lot with GPS on a Palm Pilot. There are many devices that can easily be connected to the Palm Pilot. This phone looks like a step in the right direction for you.
Mini-x and Bogl sounds interesting. Any links?
I too have been thinking about the Jupiter (Phillips' StrongARM-based WinCE entry), but am worried that sufficiently detailed HW information wont be available and overriding the WinCE might prove impossible.
Man... the itsy rocks! I want to strap a notebook type hard drive to the bottom of that, or maybe a ram drive (that would be better) and have the worlds best rio/palm pilot/wearable/translator/AI pet!!!! why won't they give me a job!? ;-) sigh....
The other major reason: Playing MP3's in the car -- IMHO much more flexible than most of the specialized solutions out there right now and it costs about the same.
--
--
I have no sig.
Yep, that would indeed be Kim himself. :)
With the Sony Glasstron, or one of the many choices at Stereo3d,
Anyone have any experience with CPD for mobile wearable use, or 802.11/Blue Tooth for inter office use?
Linux already runs on the PalmPilot with extra memory (2MB total I think is needed), but it's still quite bleeding edge.
As always, generalisations are dangerous - no doubt many hand held users use them just as appliances, but quite a few load them up with lots of shareware and write their own small apps (as I have done in Pocket C).
... really I need VMware for the Palm platform so I can hypervise PalmOS and Linux, or at least run xcopilot under Linux on the Palm...
It's a question of whether you need the power of Linux on a handheld or not - if you develop on Linux, go for it, but if you just need address/calendar/notes etc, something like a Pilot or a Psion is cheaper and gets the job done quicker, compared to a more general purpose platform like Linux.
I've got nothing against Linux but I don't have enough of a desire to carry it in my shirt pocket, though of course it does run on a PalmPilot and I now have a 4MB Palm IIIx, so I could do
Ok then, we should re-create the wheel for every new car color? Even though the rim still fits?
I can't understand Compadigital... Pilot begun with geeks buying lots and lots - Now everyone want's an Itsy running Linux with tilt sensors and etc - the apps will appear smoking. Why they don't sell it?
Maybe this can go to poll section...
Last I heard, the uClinux project had released a stable 2.0.32 kernel which worked on Palm devices- I personally ran it under XCopilot with 1mb ram.
:)
However, I'm unsure if it supports the new DragonBall EZ processor in the new Palm V and IIIx. If/when I get some additional information, I am planning on flashing it onto my IIIx and starting to develop some PalmOS-like apps for it.
I want to be able to whip out my Palm, look up phone numbers, etc, and when I hit the memo pad button, I want to see VIM come up in a text console
I'm not always around my desktop, but I if I had a handheld running a free Unix, I could do 80% of my work on that, mostly coding.
Why are handhelds running Win9x so much more in demand than WinCE? Because people want to be able to integrate data with their desktop PC, and if you are running the same OS, this is painless.
Well, my desktop OS is Linux, so I want a Linux handheld for the same reasons. Heck, I don't even need to run XFree86, but it's really comforting to know that some daring Libretto owners have managed to do it.
I just tried this out last week. xcopilot, pilot-link and the pilot dev tools are great. Here is a screenshot of my very first app... http://blevins.simplenet.com/bean.jpg Or you can download the actual app here: http://blevins.simplenet.com/bean.zip
Tried that on a PC110 with a 64Kbps MP3 - not a chance, even after dropping the sample rate down to 11KHz, etc. etc. etc.
No :) But if someone's willing to throw money at me, I wouldn't mind doing a translation of some of those books...
(Oart of the reason why FreeBSD is so popular over here is that they've put a lot more effort into allowing applications that can handle two-byte character codes into the standard set of ports and packages. In fact, there's a set of apps for Japanese, another for Chinese, another for Korean, and so on, and all you have to have is a link to the Internet in order to get them built and running.)
Actually you missed the point. /. a way to have our way with these devices! so for now I use a wearable... maybe an Itsy when they ever exit the "just out of vaproware" phase or a bunch of PalmIIIx units running linux! then I dont have to spend $1000's on a programming house that will muck up the project anyways and never really give us the source code.
the reason to have linux on a palmtop is to circumvent the hideously overpriced development platforms that winCE and all other palm OS's have. I would love to write apps for my PIIIx and my wince box.. but I dont have time to learn some cryptic os quirks and what bugs to avoid (wince only here) if I can run linux and X on my PalmIIIx then I can write a simple tcl/tk program to do the chemical analysis input plug into a cradle and instantly upload to the server. with regular palm os I have to develop tons of things and then try and get a stupid "conduit" to talk across the network. A free OS on a palm platform would take the death grip that software houses have on these devices and give the geeks of
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I dont do hand-held... that is for the technologically impared, I wear linux. My wearable computer is with me 18 hours a day, running linux faithfully and doing all i need. I admit i wish the Head mounted display was better but this is only the 20th century and technology versus affordable (Read: less than $5000.00) isnt there yet so I use X windows at 640x480 with huge fonts (No HMD is available that will actually do 640x480 most are 320x200 that are under $3000.00 and are B&W) a wearable can be built for about $2000.00 or purchased from Xyberaut for about $6000.00 less the display. If you want bleeding edge technology you have to pay through the nose till it hurts, if you want last decades technology you can use windows CE.
BTW: the PalmIII is the only real hand held computer with the super fast dragon-ball processor... and there is a linux port in the works! (A dirty rumor i heard)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I have Linux 2.0.36 running on a IBM Thinkpad 760EL (64mb ram, 2.1gb hd) and use it for developing GTK+ and GNOME applications. Kinda neat, I can develop on my workstation (Dual P2) and then continue to develop on the road with my laptop. I find it very handy, besides the 'Aww man, you have a portable Unix box -- cool.' comments I get. It's fun having a server OS on the road.
A usable portable Linux system should fit into 20M of flash memory, but you can get around 150M now in Compact Flash cards, which should make a pretty good distribution (including a small X windows installation).
Of course, the Pilot-like CE hardware is pretty good, too. But for any Pilot-like device, Linux kind of lacks the applications.
Still, since nothing like that exists yet, I just bought an Omnibook 800. You may be able to still find one for around $700. They have 166MHz MMX Pentiums, weight 4 pounds, and are smaller than most notebooks. But the battery life is pretty limited.
In the long term, I'm actually more interested in handhelds and lightweight portables that run PersonalJava--if I'm going to write GUI apps for a portable, I'd like to do it in a language and environment that makes it easy, and Java is a good compromise between power and simplicity for GUI apps in my experience. And once I write to Java, it doesn't matter much to me whether there is Linux or some other OS underneath it.
pager, etc.
:) but the point is, I would pay dearly to have a single device that did all those things.
It's a rare day when I'm carrying all at once
Seems that a general purpose OS like Linux plus some highly specialized drivers to interface with the GPS, cell phone and pager units would do the trick.
What other devices/capabilities need unifying in this way?
faster, smaller, simpler..?
Linux on a Libretto 100 is fast, small and very usable.
When you can use emacs to code in X, or the console to play quake, whether sitting on a train, standing in a queue, or sitting in a cafe, why would you want anything simpler?
Pick one of these up cheap and don't look back.
What about the XFree86 support for the graphic-card in a Libretto? I'm perheaps going to have one of these wonderfull pieces of hardware...
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
Could you specify a bit more on why WinCE 'sucks'? Technical information only, of course. I'm deciding on what kind of ortable platform I'd like to start developing for. i already develop for Linux -- I'm writing a CD database/front-end for my college radio station WCWM. I'm thinking about starting on WinCE with a simple organization program that fits my style of thinking closer than a tree or the brain. I just love the ideas behind the Jupiter HPCs (esp. the Clio!). So if you could maybe point me to some benchmark pages or API disadvantage pages, that'd be great.
I have a Libretto 70CT with Redhat 5.2 ... The install was COMPLETELY painless except for the fact that you'll need a backpack CDrom to do it the way I did :-)
X even started up on the first try.
Battery life is the only drawback... ~2 hours on a standard battery (I have two).
This is what I would recommend too. Due to various reasons I need to dual boot between NT and Linux. Use both a Toshiba Tecra 8000 and a Libereto, depending on the time of day and what I need to do. System Commander with the two operating systems works fine for me. There are a couple of very good Laptop HOW-TO documents out there a bunch of good linux laptop compatibility sites. Search Yahoo for them and post on there. No offense, but /.'s users tend to be a bit too much on the esoteric side of technology at times :-) Cheers, Shri
I hasten to add that I've not done this myself, but would like to. What you really need is a wireless connection between the PDA and the server. Then the server & batteries live in a bum-bag, and the PDA can be waved around.
No need to connect wires to PCs either.
We can dream. Vik :v)
Which place is selling the Velo 1? I'm interested in one of these. (midtoad@globalserve.net)
- midtoad
Umwelt schützen, Fahrrad benützen
Mike
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Mike
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"Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yër?"
It certainly won't play 128k mp3s. The PC110 is based on a 486SX-33, so you will be using Linux's FPU emulation code to play. If it were DX-based, you would be able to play lower bitrate MP3s (64k?), but that would be pushing the CPU pretty hard.
try to get a later model. the first model had a 133 mhz pentium, less video ram, smaller hard drive and less ram.
the later models have the 166 mhz and expand to 80 mb. ram
my early (133) model can do 640x480x16 and 800x600x8 color; the later model might go 800x600x16.
i like it a lot, even though i've only had it a week. i still need to compile apm in cuz it doesn't auto shutdown right.
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john
I think the "urge" is silly. The purpose of any computer is what its end usefulness is. Just to have Linux on a machine to say so is worthless unless there is actually a value attached to having Linux.
Also, most people miss the point completely of what a palm computing device is for. They were not designed to be a primary input device, but rather to be more of an information query device.
We are writing business applications for the Palm computing device. We allow simple queries on the device that then connect either via the internet or over an 800 number for real time information access for inventory & ordering from our system. The most complex thing you can expect someone to enter is a short note.
Using Linux on such a device is overkill delux. In fact, the Palm OS is probably overkill.
"Linux everywhere" is just as silly a goal as "Windows everywhere". Just because a pipe wrench will adjust to fit any size nut doesn't mean it is the proper tool for the job.
But if you really must carry Linux around 100% of the time, do what I do. Install it on a 3 pound Sony 505FX. (266mhz pentium w/MMX)
Dave Bennett
Can the PC110 play MP3s? I've been kicking around the idea of putting one of them in the car.
This is my signature. There are many signatures like it but this one is mine..
Linux on the Jornada: great! Has anyone reverse engineered these boxes? I bet they use software driven video & modem interfaces. Why else would WinCE be so slow on a 190 MHz StrongARM?
We will need WinCE-WINE to run some of the canned apps. And a SAMBA port. This could be a lifetime job for the right person...
Fiat Lux.
Here on Ghost Plant we've heard rumours that apple is going to come out with a decent consumer portable later this year. Supposed to have a G3 processor. OS 8.6 even has enablers for it (or is somehow engineered to run on it.) Could one of the PPC liuxs (just what is the plural of linux? Linii?) run on this platform? OF course, its going to have weird everything (display, interactivity, possible radio communications, etc.) Sigh. Sometimes I think apple is too smart for their own good...
I have to agree with Kim (I think that's Kim who wrote this).
:)
I've done the same thing, and I have to say it is a sweet system. I dunno if I'd use $2300 of my own cash for it (my company paid for it), but I was looking for something simple to do some work on the road, and I just know It would be useless to do anything without a keyboard (no Palms), and I barfed at the thought of the WinCE machines, and the Psions looked like a poorly supported environment.
So, I caught one of these things at the local CompUSA, and said Wow. Went home to look at the specs more carefully, then went back to pick it up.
The machine itself is gorgeous, and linux runs very well on it (why not? 266MMX, 64MB/4.3GB, great display, etc). And the ergonomics are a fair comprimise considering it's size.
Now, just gotta figure out how to get that camera up under linux
-SteveK
The $500 Calibri-133 is a tiny flash disk Linux device. It is intended to be a network tool, but internally it has 2 IDE interfaces. No mounting bays -- maybe you could squeeze a SanDisk in there. Or upgrade the flash disk to 144 MB. http://yulia.com/hardware/index.html
So use your Linux laptop for your data. Configure it as a server to give access to your various desktop machines.
At boot time you can choose a boot configuration which identifies your current location. Or else have a script which changes the identity (IP, DNS, printers) and makes the various services reread configuration. There are at least two examples on the Web of this. (I'm using the boot-time config as I haven't taken the time to try the other method yet)
mustapha's post seemed intriguing, so I decided to check it out. I can't read Japanese, but takemura's thing seemed really cool. Problem was, every single page I could find was in Japanese. I went to NEC's US web site and searched for Mobile Gear, and nothing came up. After digging around for a while, I found something called the "Mobile Pro." Sure enough, when the picture came up, it was definitely the same thing takemura had (althouh it has a color display -- it must be a newer model). And right next to the picture was a "Powered by Windows CE" logo!
Apparently it is possible to put BSD on a Windows CE thing. This seems especially wierd since the "regular" version only runs on x86 processors. Would somebody please explain this to me (using words of less than five letters)?
P.S.: It seems like a lot of the action in the FreeBSD world is happening over in Japan. In fact, when a friend of mine wanted a FreeBSD book, I couldn't find one in English that had been written less than a few years ago. Meanwhile, 20 Japanese books have been released in the past six months, most with cute anime guys on the cover. So the question is, is there a good online course in Japanese?
Has anyone tried Linux on an HP journada 820?
I love my Psion Series 5. It is the only handheld I've been able to find that combines a great keyboard which I can actually type fast on, with a good battery life and a small enough form factor that I can carry it everywhere. I really have a need to type, thus I still haven't bought a Palm Pilot.
Now if I could run Linux on my Psion, that would be very cool indeed. Of course, the apps that come with the Psion are quite useful and easy to use too - there would definitely be some tradeoffs to loading Linux and losing the built in apps. The built in OPL language is not really fun to hack with, and the optional C/C++ package was a little overpriced last time I checked.
Until then, does anyone know of a Linux utility that can sync with, or otherwise backup files from the Series 5?. I would really like to delete my Win98 partition, and the Psion sync program is the only thing that forces me to keep it
Thanks!
I have been wondering about Linux as an OS choice in the handheld market for a while now. Unlike Jesse Montrose, I'm not in a hurry for my handheld, since a few enabling technologies such as cheap high-density removable memory, 200-300 dpi screens, and better voice recognition are not ready yet. Though in the long run, I think of it as a reasonable choice for a multi-purpose design that does the following:
/. Readers may want to check out:
. html - I found the PLEB links very interesting.
GPS - I carry around a Garmin 12XL now, and it really bugs me that I can't customize the interface the way I would like.
map display - Several GPS units do this now and some palmtops interface with GPS units, though the combination is too bulky for my tastes.
paging - I'd like to be able to access a LEO satellite two-way paging network (e.g. http://www.orbcomm.com), a ground based network if available and cheaper, and send a page directly to another unit if it is less than a few km away.
phone - I could dispense with this function if only everyone else had paging ability. A big market though.
camera/photo quality display - an integrated camera design such as the Sony PCG is one solution, or something that slides into a PC slot with a pivoting lens (like Nikon's or Agfa's) would also work. A very high resolution screen (e.g. HDTV: 1080x1960) at 300dpi would work well for displaying photos to friends and for checking the photo quality at time of capture.
voice recognition - for document entry, paging, etc.
Of course none of the above is Linux specific, but if I were to buy a device with another OS (such as EPOC32) for this device, the burden of proof would be on the alternative. It would have to be faster, require less power for a given function, or have some advantage over an OS that is free and for which I already have a small amount of familiarity.
Links: in addition to the links previously mentioned,
Alternative OS http://www.altos.org.uk for reviews on PalmOS, Epoc32 and others
Pocket Unix Bookmarks http://cmcind.far.ruu.nl/gillies/bookmarks/pocket
Embedded Cygnos OS (eCos) http://www.sourceware.cygnos.com - I'm not sure if this OS is really aimed at Palmtop computing, or if it is for more traditional embedded applications, but there is some interesting stuff here.
"The GNU Public License [...] means in practice that application developers have to make the sources available. In the embedded systems market this requirement is generally considered unacceptable and many companies refuse to use any GPL'd code as a result. This would reduce the uptake of eCos, and we want as many people as possible to use the system."
There is also a good overview of Operating Systems at http://www.tunes.org/Review/OSes.html with many links.
I agree, doing something for the sake of doing it usually is not a good use of our time.
I also agree with your quote on what palm is for, a query device.
The point that I think that we are missing in this discussion is that people (including myself) want more out a "palm device" than just query-ability.
A device that allows us to do many of the mondane, boring tasks that we all do everyday, where-ever and when-ever we want (assuming wireless life exists). We could do things like responding to the 100's of e-mail we all get everyday, like checking the status of all our systems, like fixing little problems that arise on our systems just to name a few silly ones.
I sure would like to do these things while watching Futurama, or X-Files, or while waiting for my next micro-brew to arrive while I am at 20-Tanks would'nt you?
I know this goes against the grain of most of the posts here concerning a Palm-linux...
Is there a linux for Apple's discontinued/unsupported Newton hardware?
I've got a vintage Newton eMate that I'm not doing much with...just curious.