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Understand My Job, Please! (ESR explains)

Posted by Hemos on from the take-it-from-his-perspective dept.

Jamie writes "ESR tries to clear things up, and suggests a few things for the hacker culture's future. Read it from the mouth of the man. " This puts things more into perspective-and it's good to see things have simmered down a little bit.

3 of 194 comments (clear)

  1. Stereotypes, Marytrdom and Growing Up. by Aleris · · Score: 5

    A Note to Eric Raymond :

    Mr. Raymond, the last of the pimples left my face many years ago. I work for a living, doing systems programming in the corporate world. And I take exception to being stereotyped into the "pimply-faced geek" group simply because I think you've gotten a little too carried away with yourself. Not all of us are "testosterone-poisoned twerps", contrary to your assertions.

    The aspect of "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" that I enjoyed so much was it's substance and lack of rhetoric. It wasn't propaganda, it seemed, until Netscape got hold of it and suddenly "Open Source" was the politically correct terminology for free software. As a programmer, I'm a very pragmatic person; rhetoric is lost on me and in fact, tends to lead me to believe that it's being used to hide something. It bothers me that you use language in such a way as to produce the impression that anyone who disagrees with you, and says so publicly, is an enemy of the Linux community.

    *That*, sir, is why folks accuse you of egotism.

    Your appeal to this community consisted of the fact that you were the voice of reason, that you were willing to negotiate and discuss and bring this community together. Many of us saw you as the primary spokesman for those of us who wanted to see a healthy free software community; even through your missteps over the last few months, many of us continued to believe.

    Even, God help us, through the APSL debacle.

    Many of us had problems - major problems - with the APSL, but for the most part we didn't blame Apple. Apple has the right to do their licensing any way they want, so long as it's legal. We didn't really have a problem with OSI backing the APSL. That's OSI's call.

    But when you write something like "Take My Job, Please" - in which you stereotype vast tracts of the community, wrap yourself in your own marytrdom and play the "I'm the leader, why is no one following?" game, something is wrong. When the press carries your "retirement" by stating that the Linux leader is stepping down, something is *very* wrong. And when you publicly state that public discussion on these subjects is a liability to the success of the Linux Cause, it's time to stop things and start over.

    You're not the Fearless Leader, Mr. Raymond. The future of free software does not hinge on what you say and do, and if the only way to "win" is to fall in line (or "grow up" as you put it) and goosestep behind you, then let's all please declare defeat, go home and get on with our lives.

    Please?

    Rob Warren
    aleris@iag.net

  2. He still doesn't get it by Zico · · Score: 5

    A couple of thoughts come to mind after reading Raymond's latest reply:

    • It's possible that I might have missed it, but I never see Raymond ever mention the possibility that people might have honest disagreements with him. No, if anyone has a disagreement, it's because they're a "Slashdot kiddie" or someone who doesn't take time out to think before they post. This is what gets him so roundly flamed; the audience starts to notice that no matter how politely their objections to one of Raymond's viewpoints are written, Raymond always takes it personally and can't manage a reply without throwing in some cheap shot or insult. Future writers are less likely to give him the benefit of the doubt, so they throw in insults of their own preemptively, knowing that they'll receive a snotty reply no matter what they write anyway.
    • The first point leads to a specific instance in his latest writings: his idea that all disagreements should be done behind closed doors instead of in public. To him, everyone who spoke out about his endorsement of the APSL was jumping in without thinking, and private email should have been used instead. This is wrong. Should there have been 100 posts here on Slashdot about how great the APSL is without any rational rebuttal? I'm sure that he would have preferred that all disapproval have been in the form of flames, instead of clear arguments like Perens's, so that they could be written of as written by immature flamers. Then again, it seems like he views any disagreement as a rash flame.
    • And that last point leads me to this aside: If the APSL did indeed meet the Open Source ideal, why is he still working on a new version of the APSL with them? There's nothing wrong with this, just like people tried working with TrollTech to improve the QPL. But how about having the intellectual honesty to admit that you were wrong about the original APSL meeting the Open Source ideal? Is it ego or Apple money that prevents this?
    • Lastly, I can only shake my head when I see him mentioning the importance of "look[ing] like sane, credible responsible adults to the non-hacker world." This from the person who proudly displayed the Bill Gates as Hitler/Microsoft as Nazi Germany image on the Open Source home page. This from the person who hijacked people's attempts to get companies to change their Windows preloading/licensing policies by running around in an Obi Wan Kenobi outfit.

    In summary: Eric, look to how you might change your own behavior before lecturing the rest of the communinity on theirs.

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  3. Open vs. Closed by dvdeug · · Score: 5

    One of the things ESR complained about was that Perens and RMS openly discussed the problems with APSL. Isn't that part of what the community is about, that most problems can be discussed openly, that we usually don't work behind closed doors?

    Also, if ESR wanted the problems to be quiet, he should have discussed it with Perens, RMS and others before coming out with a press release. If you send things openly on the net, they will get discussed openly.