Geeks in Rolling Stone

The latest issue of Rolling Stone Magazine has an article on geeks written by our own Jon Katz. Jon has never pretended to be a geek, but his subjects, Jesse & Eric, definitely are. They both list Slashdot in their bookmarks and, well just read the article. I think a lot of us will find something in this article worth reading. Its for a mainstream audience, but I think its pretty fair.

Comments

Excellent article, I can relate...

[gavinhall]

Posted by DiegoGuy:

[first 2 paragraphs are my personal life, skip them if you want to get to the computer part of my life]
I just spent the past 2 hours reading the article and I loved it. It gave me a warm, fuzzy feeling to know that there are others out there like me. While I probably have had less struggles than these two, and I have yet to move across the country and get a job making > $30K/yr, I can relate a lot with their personal lives and struggles through adolescence. I was born in Montana, lived in Nevada for several years, and only within this decade have lived in California (btw, we have Cable Modem access here Jesse and Eric). My father dropped out of high school when he was 15, and my mother graduated from high school, but didn't further her education. Both my mother and father left Los Angeles and San Diego, respectively, and headed for the "wide open skies and fresh air of Montana", as they would say . My father worked on drilling rigs and was sometimes away from my brother, mom, and I for several months at a time. My mom worked in a cafe as a cook after I was born and could be babysat. My brother (step) came to live with us when I was just a baby and he was five.
Anyway, we moved to Nevada after my mom got a job in the airline industry, and that opened up a whole range of oppurtunities for her, as well as me. It got us out of the rural state of Montana, and into Nevada which had some more oppurtunity. My dad continued to work in the drilling industry, and when I was ~10, my brother left to go live with his real mom. When I was 12, my mom and dad split up, and that kind of devastated me. Then, next year I made a new friend who was into computers, and lived on my street. He showed me Wolfenstein 3d, and the like, and at that time I really liked the gaming aspect of computers.
A few years later I moved to California, and the $3,000 I had saved my entire life through working (mowing lawns, etc), I spent on a shiny new computer (this was ~December 1995). It had Windows 95 preloaded on it with too much software (sound familiar?), and I thought it was the coolest operating system in the world. Then, we got AOL, and I used that for awhile, but I had been reading the local ComputorEdge magazine in San Diego, and noticed people arguing about having "direct" Internet access. So I managed to get the "WOW!" service that Compuserve was offering because it was somewhat of a direct Internet access option (although it was still proprietary in nature). I got tired of that, and got an account with a local ISP with my 28.8 modem. It was a dream come true - I could finally use all the 32-bit Internet applications such as "The Internet" icon on my desktop (IE 2.0), and Eudora e-mail. I then started using that for a few months, and naturally being a geek I got bored with Windows 95 and wanted to venture into new and more interesting things. (this is ~March 1996). I had still been a straight A student in my high school during this time, but I noticed a lot of my time was being consumed by my overwhelming urge to search for new and interesting things to do with my computer. I discovered the interactive side of the Internet, started browsing newsgroups and online bulletin boards, and used Online Traveler for awhile (saw it on MTV). Then I was talking in one of the virtual world's and someone said something about how you could download free software on this thing called "EFNet". I thought that was kind of convenient, so I tried that out for awhile, and started using all the latest and greatest software on my home computer.

Now, I would like to defend Jesse & Eric on this subject - downloading commercial software. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it if you are just a geek at home interested in learning new software programs, but I DO see it as wrong to use commercial software in your business where you are making money with it. The businesses are the main generators of revenue for commercial software vendors, not teenagers who use the Internet all day long.

After awhile, I got bored with all the latest and greatest Windows software, and had heard about another operating system that people on the 'Net had been starting to use quite a lot - Linux. (this is ~May 1996) So I tried Slackware '96 out, and it was somewhat interesting to me, although I felt I was going back in time with the command line (felt a lot like DOS). I hadn't even realized the power of having a UNIX operating system on my PC back then, but I did after a few months of using it. I continued to try out all the latest and most expensive (I thought it was interesting to be using $20,000 software programs like Softimage|3D for free) Windows software on my PC, but I began to get tired of the instability of Windows 95, and moved on to Windows NT Workstation 4.0 when it was released in August of '96. This was after 3 months working my first computer job that summer doing marketing analysis at a plumbing supply company. Anyway, I really liked Windows NT Workstation as a client operating system, and I continue to like it to this day, due to it having the majority of off-the-shelf applications on the market (althought Linux is improving greatly in the client area). I managed to graduate high school after my grades dropped from straight A's to D'c & C's due to my obsessive/compulsive use of the computer, although I did take AP computer science and other computer classes in high school. My year of graduation was 1998 (last June), and I wanted to work around _people_ for once in my life, so I got a complete BS job working at a fast-food place for 3 months until I could afford my own car. I then moved on to a $7 / hr job in a retail store, and worked there for ~ 6 months. All this time after graduating high school and having much free time (due to this being my year to take off before college) I immersed myself into every aspect of computers. I finally bought my own hub and ethernet cards, and got another computer, and setup my own LAN at home with Linux being the server. I got tired of working my retail job, and knew I could do something better with my life, so a friend of someone I know (who is a software engineer) gave me a programming job for his software company. He wooed me, and promised "$20 and hr in just a couple months", and told me about making more than my mom. I started working for awhile, and I loved the work, but I got stressed out to the point where I got sad and lonely, and took a leave from the job for a week, my boss was cool about the whole thing. It was so bad that I had to go to the hospital and get medication. (this is ~1 month ago) Now I come back to the job, and my boss starts giving me a few projects, but I get stressed out again (medication takes ~1 month to kick in) and don't work for a few days. Now I can tell my boss is getting a little annoyed, but he assures me that "the brightest minds in this world always have some personal problems". (this is ~2 weeks ago) Now, he hasn't called or anything, and I am feeling hopeless. My medication is now kicking in and making me a lot more stable, so I am at the point where I can work day in and day out and be productive, but he is not even calling any more. I have ~$900 in the bank, and I almost feel like doing the same exact thing that Jesse and Eric have done.

So, I am now at home (still living with mom), and 8 months graduated from high school with no prospects in my life as of yet. I have 3 years of intense experience with computers (due to my enourmous amounts of free time), and some experience at my current programming "job". (but my boss doesn't call anymore)

I don't know what to do now, but I know a few things - I would love to continue working in the computer industry, and hopefully make enough money to get me through a good college. I have great people skills (due to my recent job in the retail store industry), and I have great computer skills (lots of *NIX, lots of Windows NT, Windows 9x, Pascal, some C++ experience in AP computer science mostly, ASP (Microsoft) / VB, etc). What should I do? Should I try my luck driving across the country or up north to Silicon Valley and see if I can make something of myself and get myself through college?

They're not geeks, they're losers!

[Joe Mucchiello]

Being a loser who shuts himself inside and can't deal with society is just a geek loser.

Actually it's more like a loser who happens to be a geek. I was going to post something like Timur did but decided against being so harsh.

The Idaho/Utah system

[heroine]

Having lived inside and outside the Idaho/Utah system I can say the politics in that area are as detrimental as they are beneficial to people like Jesse and Eric. On the one hand, you don't have to worry about locking your doors. You can go outside at night. The women are easy to fall in love with.

On the other hand it's a very very clickish area of the country. You're either a NonMember or a (cough) member and even the most brilliant people can end up swapping cards for the rest of their lives if they don't play the game.

Would geeks like that have become the next Steve Jobs if they lived in, say, Los Angeles or would Linus have ended up an unemployed bum if he grew up in Idaho?

I wouldn't believe the line about unlimited jobs. Like anything you read in Rolling Stone, Jesse and Eric were extremely lucky. For every Jesse and Eric there are a thousand equally skilled geeks taking the same chance, ending up on the street, and definitely not appearing in Rolling Stone.

Katz says he's not a geek?

[X]

I have no problems with Katz, in fact I like reading his articles, but please don't say he's never claimed to be a geek. He's claimed to be a geek regularly. Although he admits to not being a computer expert, his definition of geek includes himself.

You need to get Jon...

[extremely]

You need to get Jon to post stuff like this article HERE!

This is good stuff, the best of what I like from Jon, no pretension, no nonsense, just clear personable writing.

From now on Jon, WRITE ABOUT PEOPLE. Write about yourself, write about geeks, write about non-geeks suffering/learning tech. Don't write about technology directly EVER AGAIN. Point it at people and you become 2 - 4 TIMES the engaging writer.

Thanks, BTW.

P.S. I wasn't sure they were real geeks until they hit the first few posts on /. (and aren't AC!)
--

A simple question

[Amazing Proton Boy]

Giving users the choice to filter content is a really great feature. I think that Rob has done a great job with the moderation and all the neat functions here on Slashdot. But I see a small problem. I have my prefs set to block Katz articles. This is the choice that I made. I do this because I don't want to read Jon Katz articles. If Rob posts Katz articles, such as this one or one of the movie reviews, it makes it past my filter. This defeats the purpose of a filter. I can always just skip right along as soon as I see Katz's name, which is what I do, but this just puts all of Rob's work to waste. Right now this is not a big problem at all but as Slashdot grows, more people will want to filter certain authors and will be unable to, do to this "stealth posting" technique. This is a fairly minor gripe but it does irk me. Can we fix it?

I think this is on topic for this article because THIS ARTICLE is the subject.


Thanks for all your hard work Rob.

Joe

They're not geeks, they're losers!

[timur]

Give me a freakin' break! These two are the white trash of the computer world (and probably other worlds, too). First off, I sure hope they aren't using their real names, because they have admitted in publich to commiting numerous crimes, including forgery and piracy. I hope they get arrested. The average person is going to read this article and think that all geeks are like this.

Let me pick some juicy quotations:

"The Internet has guided and shaped much of their lives -- how they think, what they do, what kind of future they will have. It is the only thing in the world they trust."

That's really scary, because the Internet is not something I trust at all. If anything, the Internet is the one thing you CAN'T trust, because you have no idea who it is you're talking to at any point. And unless you use encryption on everything, people can monitor what you're doing.

"'For me, the Net isn't a substitute for life,' he says. 'It is life.' Jesse likes to say that the life he and Eric live is the real Real World."

That's pathetic. I don't think I need to comment on this - the words speak for themselves.

Referring to someone whose parents paid for his education: "Jesse shakes his head. 'I'll have been working for five or six years when he gets out.'

And that's supposed to mean what? That a nobody from some hick town with 5 years experience selling fake ID's is supposed to have an advantage over someone who's been studying for 4 years to get a college degree?!?!? HAHAHAHA!!!!

"'Can't say I've paid for any of them. Or for any game or piece of software I've ever used, either.'"

Just lovely - this article glamorizes theft. Somehow, we're supposed to feel sorry for this guy and let him steal software and music?

"Jesse has a thriving social life, but not in the sense that most people traditionally use the term. It exists almost totally in his head"

That's not my definition of a social life, it's my definition of a LACK of a social life.

"His friendships are characterized by a stream of gifts - games, music, software. It would never occur to him to tell a friend that he was happy or sad."

Again, this is not a definition of friends, it's a definition of lack of friends. True friends care about your feelings. These people obviously don't.

"A week or two ago, he went hiking along the Boise River on a bright day and landed in the hospital emergency room with second-degree burns on his legs."

All that time on the Internet, and he doesn't even know what sunscreen is for.

"but engaging in a conversation that he does not control tires him out"

Oh yeah, great social skills indeed.

There's more, but I think I've made my point. Granted, I feel sorry about their dysfunctional families. Obviously, that makes their situation more bleak, and they've been scarred by it. But glamorizing them like this is a crime, IMHO.

--
Timur Tabi
Remove "nospam_" from email address

E-mail and writing better

[JonKatz]

Thanks for the amazing amount of e-mail. Between /. and RS readers, it might take me longer than usual, but I will answer it. This is the best response to anything I've ever written, and I'm proud it's up here.
I doubt I could ever really convey how much I admire Jesse and Eric, or even convey enough what they went through to get from there to here. They're heroes of mine.
Thanks for the great messages. Thanks also to those of you who write and said you think my writing here is improving. I have a ways to go, but I like to think that's true. If it is improving, it's because of all the educating you're giving me. I'm listening too -- shorter, clearer, smarter. Easier said than done, but I'm trying and will keep trying. I wish I could write more pieces like this.
Rolling Stone is one of the few places where you can..and this one took six months, and a number of trips to Idaho and the Midwest. But I'm eager to finish this book, and grateful for all the nice words. Even I couldn't screw up writing about these guys too much.

E-mail and writing better

[JonKatz]

Thanks for the amazing amount of e-mail. Between /. and RS readers, it might take me longer than usual, but I will answer it. This is the best response to anything I've ever written, and I'm proud it's up here.
I doubt I could ever really convey how much I admire Jesse and Eric, or even convey enough what they went through to get from there to here. They're heroes of mine.
Thanks for the great messages. Thanks also to those of you who write and said you think my writing here is improving. I have a ways to go, but I like to think that's true. If it is improving, it's because of all the educating you're giving me. I'm listening too -- shorter, clearer, smarter. Easier said than done, but I'm trying and will keep trying. I wish I could write more pieces like this.
Rolling Stone is one of the few places where you can..and this one took six months, and a number of trips to Idaho and the Midwest. But I'm eager to finish this book, and grateful for all the nice words. Even I couldn't screw up writing about these guys too much.
P.S. Jesse and Eric are doing Quake 3.

Not quite the wasteland

[Felix The Cat]

Sorry, gang, but this part of Idaho is not quite the high-tech wasteland that is portrayed in the article. I live (and work) in Boise, which is 15 or so miles from Caldwell. There are high tech firms running the gamut from small, 50-person software shops (where I used to work) to huge multinational high-tech firms that have been around for 50+ years (where I currently work) here. Not to mention other large coroprations, such as Albertson's and Boise-Cascade, that have huge IT departments that need people. Add to that the fact that BSU has one damn fine CS program. The result? Boise is one happenin' high-tech town (of course, US West needs to get of its ass and get more complete DSL coverage, but that's another story).

I can't believe this.

[Lx]

This is really what people on Slashdot are like? That's pretty disappointing. I can't see why it is that Katz thought these 2 were fit to write about. I understand what its like to not have much money, and I can relate to their lives growing up. However, they need to grow the hell up. Is no one else offended by the fact that the bulk of their existence is involved with criminal activity?

I can't believe they have the nerve to talk about character. If they think somehow they automatically have character because they've had a rough life, they have no clue what character is. Stealing software, music, making fake IDs, those activities don't do much to indicate any character at all. All that is ok, of course, because they didn't have a priveleged upbringing. The world owes them, and they shouldn't have to pay for things like everyone else.

By choice, they have no friends, no social skills, and feel such pity for themselves as to compare the internet to heroin. That's bullshit. There's nothing addictive about the internet. If you choose to sit around all day on-line in chat rooms and think that somehow makes you smarter than people who watch tv all day, you've got problems.

What scares me even more is that there are people like this actually entering the job force. This is not who I want to see working for a consulting firm. A couple of elitist punks who have no social skills, no morals, and a completely warped view of the world.

It makes me sick that John Katz somehow thinks this kind of lifestyle is worthy of glamourizing. If this is the kind of people geeks are, I guess I was mistaken in thinking I was a geek.

-lx

Sobering reminder

[Saint]

I note with a mixture of pity and amusement some of the resoponses that this article has generated so far. One poster proclaims the subjects of Mr Katz's article to be "the white trash of the computer world". While that might seem very insightful to the poster of that response, I think a statement of that nature is more of an indication of what type of person the poster is. I come from a similar background that the two subjects came from with the notable exceptions being that I come from a big city and have never sold fake ID's. Alter the circumstances with regard two those two things and change some names around and that very well could be me. I too didn't know what it was like to have my parents pay for school. I went to a community college when I had the money and have about 50 credit hours to date. Three years ago I was makeing $8.00 an hour, managing a bookstore, eating ramen twice a day and basically wondering what I was going to do. Then I met a buddy of mine while attending an army reserve weekend and I was fortunate enough to be able to leverage experience obtained in the military to get a job as an entry level Sysadmin. I made $38000 a year to start. Quite a jump. While I make quite a bit more than that now, I have not forgotten what is was like to eat ramen for three week stretches, just to get by. So yes, you could say that this article struck a cord in me. I just am curious how many others have similar stories. To those who really believe you have to have a degree to get a decent job, bull. You need to be curious, technically competent and willing to work obscene hours...:-) Please don't misunderstand me, I am not decrying education. I just am saying that if you want to go to school, go for the education and to learn...don't be one of those people who just go to get a sheet of paper. When I was in the Army, I met more than one officer who had a commission because of a college degree, but couldn't lead their was out of a paper bag. Since I have been out I have worked with many people who got jobs because of their degree and were thouroughly incompetent. Yes, you can get a job if you have a degree, but will you respect yourself in the morning? ;-) -Just my thoughts Saint

Good one

[phred]

Way to go, Jesse, Eric and Jon.

Some may remember the RS article a few years back about Cyborganic. Now, I love the folks who did that dearly (and I was even at a Thursday Night Dinner or two before it all kind of dwindled away), but this gets much more to the reality of what's happening because of the Net and the kinds of social changes in our society it's making.

There's a real story about real people here. Jesse and Eric's story is very familiar; I love living in Portland, Oregon but I moved here by choice as an adult. Growing up here, especially in the inner suburbs, you see a lot of what Caldwell is like, the outcome of 50 years of development ruled by TV, cars, minimalls and crappy construction. The Net may not change all that but at least it offers a new trajectory for those who don't want to be hemmed in.

The high school kids I've talked with in Portland all say how dull it is here. They can't wait to graduate and get away, whether it's to college or not. Then a few years later a lot of them come back, because even the drearier areas of the Northwest offer more real sense of community than the urban east.

The point is that the net offers an opportunity to do things and go places because of who you are, not where you are. That's a big, big thing. And it's not just a big thing for geeks, although the net "takes care of its own" first and foremost :)


As for those comments from AC whiners here, Jon, Jesse and Eric, heed the words of the Ancient Net.Godz:

Ne illegitimi carborundum.

-------

Two problems... and the solution.

[phred]

The mouse button and the D key are your friends.
Never forget this.

If there's one thing more annoying about /. than weak jonkatz articles (of which there have been only a few, given the total sum of his input here), it is the tired whining about them.

I'm only saying this once because meta-whining is even more boring.

--------

character?

[Linux geek, inc.]

well, here goes, .. my $0.02. "Character is a trophy you take away from trouble". yes, I believe that 100% but financial trouble is just one of many types of 'trouble'. I really don't see how being paid through college and "not even having a job" qualifies someone as being deficient. you don't get to pick your family. Character is something forged when you're put under pressure, usually moral pressure. "oh look that guy next to me knows the answer. hmm I can almost see his exam sheet." "well I *deserve* that money. should I just take it?" see my point? someone who doesn't have financial advantage proves their character (either good or bad) the same way.

My office mate (I'm in graduate school at Duke University) put himself through college 100%, co-oping at IBM, and I must say, you can tell. There is a certain confidence built through hard work.

a word to the wise - get out as much as you can. being a geek means being technically efficient and knowledgable, and DOESN'T mean being a hermit! I am proud to be one, all-night coding, kernel compiling, hacking, you name it, I'm there. but what fun is it if you don't have people that you can bounce ideas off, talk shop with, and just plain converse with? Just because you know the intimate details of the Linux TCP/IP stack or some such soup of detail, does not mean you have to be socially inept.

------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------
practice makes perfect; and not just at debugging, that goes for social skills too.

They're not geeks, they're losers!

[zuvembi]

I come from a similar enough situation that I sympathize with them. Granted I don't think hanging about on the computer is a social life, but not everybody is able/willing to deal with the norms.

I'm making my own way through college, I'm managing it on loans and working 20-30 hours a week. And I DO think that it's built a lot of character, enough to almost drive me mad a time or two. I've never made fake ID's but I know I thought about it, I especially thought about making a bathtub-load of LSD to finance college. And it wasn't because I'm especially inclined to criminal activity, it's because I was desperate.


It's really easy to sit on your moral high horse and say 'No one should ever commit those crimes!' when you have three square, college paid for, and your parents to fall back on if things go to hell. Did they go out and mug people? No, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying you're damn quick to judge.

When your in your own particular circle of hell you'll do damn near anything to get out. See what you do when you land in a bad corner with your back against the wall.

"Fair"? I would not call this thing fair.

[briskatron]

In reading over the Rolling Stone article I was amazed at how superficial it was.

My personal background is from a small town in Illinois where I spent my time in high school being picked on by the jocks and what have you, plus all the esoteric intellectual stuff. The point here is that I am what I would consider (and most of the popular people in high school) to be a geek.

The portrayal of Jesse and Eric, although reflecting how some of the people out there will live, is only a small minority of people, even in the geek realm. My take on things is that most of the people that build their own computers and spend time online are not like what is depicted in this article. They are mostly just people like other people. They have problems and they desires like other people.

Using the internet does not give you any special powers or status. The internet is just a collection of information and a way to communicate. In essence it does not greatly differ from reading books or talking on the phone. Ideas and knowledge. This whole "subculture" thing is overdone.

I for one am sick and tired of hearing these articles on the internet culture. The internet is just a means for like-minded people to talk to one another.

Don't get me wrong, it is a great tool that can help provide opportunities to those that might not otherwise get them, like Eric and Jesse, but using the internet does not effect who a person is. These people would exist without the internet and have similar lifestyles. Its just the technology that is new.

I wouldn't be suprised if I get flamed for saying what I've said here, but I don't care. I just wanted a counter-statement to all this "subculture" talk on the internet.

Take it as you will.

-Adam

You, regrettably, are uninformed...

[Chris Johnson]

...or totally intolerant. But then, Katz didn't know what he was looking at, either, so I can't blame you for his inability to explain it to you.

Apparently Katz wants to have Asperger's syndrome when he grows up.

I'm serious- just like there was the discovery years ago that there were millions of 'ambulatory schizophrenics' walking the streets, you just got a close-up look at the value system of an Asperger's person. At least one of them is, if not both- they probably don't know it because they've found niches that keep them out of the hospitals and homeless shelters by the skin of their teeth- and it's a real condition, a lifelong one with no cure, a weird other world of radically different values and priorities.

Have you ever heard the name Temple Grandin? Temple is an autistic woman and possibly the greatest designer of stockyards and livestock handling architecture the world has ever seen. She has always struggled to simply survive the world- but then on the other hand she has what she herself refers to as the 'Sun workstation' in her head, the mysterious savant-like ability to take a set of design problems, turn it over to her unusual and gifted/hobbled brain, and come out with a solution way better than normal humans could hope to find, somewhat like the 'lightning calculator' prodigies. It's a sort of geek Borg-like synthesis- people like the character Data, who can do remarkable feats of computation and even true creativity- but who are helpless at a dinner party without instructions- and who rebel at always having to be given instructions, because they are not _stupid_, just different- in some ways very different.

Is it any wonder that we retreat to the computer sphere where we can thrive and use our strengths?

Yeah, I did say 'we' for a reason- I live with Asperger's myself. It's not too much of a problem, though it is a disabling condition in most circumstances. I steer away from social interaction- unless it's with people I have something significant in common with, it wears me out absurdly fast, to the point that I develop physical symptoms of stress. I was ordered by a shrink once to go right away to the emergency room of the hospital. Why? I'd been trying to sort of 'fit in with the mainstream', in particular to get willingness to try your regular sort of people-oriented job (rather than the low-pay but geek-oriented jobs I'm doing now). I was a good boy, right up to the point where the shrink informed me the stomach pains that made me sweat and lie awake at night and guzzle Alka-seltzer over was gastric ulcer recurring on me, and that I could be dead in days if I didn't fix whatever it was that was wrong. Then I stopped being the good boy and considered the idea of just being _me_... and yes, I do have some freaky skills, the sort Jon Katz longs for. In particular, I'm right off the chart in particular types of mental modeling, the specific test being one of a set called GATB, in which you see 2D shapes and answer which, of a set of 3D shapes, the 2D shape can be deformed to. I obliterated this test, set a ten year high- and it's typically geeky that I also loved it and wanted to keep doing more of the exercises.

I don't know why I'm going to all this trouble to explain all this. Nobody really cares, least of all me- my life remains the same set of capacities and challenges whether or not you, popular head-of-his-class AC, think I'm a loser or not. In fact, since trying to measure up to your value system damned near literally killed me, I'm pointedly not interested in trading in a life where I can be healthy and accomplish things for a life where I look socially acceptable and 'play well with others' and die in a few years.
I'm only reacting to this notion that, of the nerds and geeks, the reclusive ones, the ones who can't deal with eating right or hygiene (I'm borderline- having a bad, bad hair day, but not overly rancid, thanks :) ), are loser geeks, and the geeks who run the computer clubs and go to parties and have girlfriends/boyfriends and pursue a healthy active social life are _good_ geeks to be emulated and used as the yardstick.

This is not only angering, it is unfair, because historically, large numbers of nerds, geeks and other major contributors to 20th century technology- hell, any technology, ever- have been these people you scorn, geeks without social lives, sometimes without friends, but with brains that can do things like hack on code for 30 hours without rest, or mysteriously arrive at revolutionary ways of doing things.

Sounds like Ubermensch? (btw, you do know who Nietzsche is?) Well, it's more like LOSERmensch, and that changes NOTHING about it. Humans vary, and the geek/nerd is well within the overall spectrum- brings things to society that cannot be simply duplicated by masses of people putting in 9-to-5s and then going off to socialize with their circuits of social obligations- and I for one will not just sit around silently and listen to people who are kind of like me, called losers. I don't see them as losers. I'm as maladjusted as they are- except in my areas of strength, or even savantlike ability.

If you don't like the 'bad name' set by those you associate with, I'd have to suggest that you better get used to it. There's a very clear correlation between certain types of mental illness (defined as 'ill by the standards of normal society) and hacker skills. It's not just about having more time to practice, either- the extreme hacker archetype is _qualitatively_ different from your normal smart guy. There's a whole spectrum going all the way from Joe Regular Dude (who happens to be a damned good coder) to weird personalities who seem to be telnetting their thinking from the planet Neptune, to RMS (just haha-only-serious). Joe Regular _cannot_ do some of the things RMS has done, and probably can't do what the guy from Neptune can do (though Joe's a hell of a lot easier to cope with).
This is not the sociological version of rocket science. This is _obvious_ to anybody who's made the slightest effort to do the research. Anyone asserting that 'shut inside low-hygeine geek losers' are a bad influence that need to be trained to act like humans... is only illustrating their inability to understand the reality of geeks, and the computer subculture, and the human mind itself.

I could log out to post this but I'm damned if I will. I'm speaking for me, others might identify with some of it or not. Clearly some will not. Not my problem- I just refuse to be blackmailed into some expectation that growth for me involves learning to act more like Joe Average, have outside interests, socialize etc. and not be 'a loser'. I rather think that, having put a lot of work into understanding this, that I'll go on being me, thank you- which will continue to be a 'me' many people would consider rather maladjusted, a 'me' which Jon Katz would appear to be blankly awed by (except I've sassed him too much), a 'me' so depersonalised by the impossible, unattainable expectations of society that for years I didn't even feel human at all- and finally, a 'me' I'm beginning to understand and accept- not on moral grounds but the sheer pragmatism of 'what works'. And being a geek, nerd, perhaps even a hacker in ways, works for me, where nothing else did.

Whether or not Katz's geeks consider themselves Asperger's people, their worldviews coincide with my own painfully-acquired one well enough that I don't accept your labels for them at all. They are not 'losers'. They're different than you. Deal with it because you can't change them: it's only fair, they've spent all their lives, as I did, not being able to change people like you.

Flame on: it'll be interesting to see who 'gets it' and who doesn't. Sounds like your mind is already made up, AC.

Quoted from the article

[sammy baby]

Jesse is incredulous when asked whether he pays for music, as if the idea is brand-new to him. For a second, he has no idea how to even explain it. "Um, no," he says. "Can't say I've paid for any of them. Or for any game or piece of software I've ever used, either." The question sparks a long riff: "I mean, I'm not going to pry open a warehouse and steal a TV. I pay for material things - food, clothes. But intellectual content - software, music - you can download on the Net."

Jon - after a quick read through the article (I haven't have time to give it good read yet), my initial impression is that we - insofar as geeks are in any way a cohesive group - haven't come very far at all. It made me very sad, and I'm not sure I can even articulate why.

The Dance of the Flaming Arsehole...

[JesseD]

This is the above mentioned Jesse. I hope you like or at least accept as mundane reality the piece in Rolling Stone about us. A small caveat, it's not about technology much, so if your eyes glaze over when you read anything but manuals, you're in for a glazing...any comments, complaints, bullshit, comradarie, rib-jabbing, leg-pulling, mail-bombing, or plain unmasked hatred you feel inclined to unleash, do it to daileyj@icsp.net

Save me from my boring days at work.

[twiggy]

This is Eric from the piece. Hope you like the story, or at least the photographs by Ethan Hill. My e-mail's not in the piece, so here it is. twilegar@icsp.net. The only thing I wish is that Britney Spears was on the cover again :)