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Linux Powered "WebTV"
BonesBro writes "Netgem is releasing a new set-top internet appliance (remember WebTV?) with a twist...this baby runs on Linux. Among other things, it claims to support 640x480 resolution with no onscreen deformation. Shipdate is give as Q4, but no price was listed. Check out the press release. "
Oh yes, can you do me a favor? Who was the guy they were always sending out on business trips? It was 2 years ago, I cannot remember his name. He offered me a job and I nearly took it (I wish now that I took it). Fox? Was that his name? Older guy, maybe in his 40's perhaps early 50's. Just curious, I'd like to look him up someday.
:)
The only person I remember is Justin because I worked with him for a week. And he had a stuffed Tigger (from A.A. Milne of course) on his computer. I thought it was strange in a charming innocent way, of course that was the first time I'd been in California. I also worked with an Asian guy (only way I can describe him now - sorry) he was quite wealthy I was told and very sharp. I think he was leading product development at least on some aspects, Ted?
Too bad RCA didn't go with your software, I pushed it but they went with Navio and killed themselves. Serves them right. It wouldn't have mattered anyhow, our product sucked because of hardware limitations. The ARM is a good chip, but it our memory decoder was absolute shit. I don't think we made a dime.
I miss drinking at work on a Friday
The funny thing is, I might be working for these people faily soon. Yes, I've sold my soul. In any case, I'll find out what their server's run. I was under the impression it was AIX for some reason.
That would be logical, but AOL is sorta like ATT -- big, conservative, not about to rock the boat.
Hardly.
do you think Kleenex get's upsed when people say:
"give me a Keenex(TM)" instead of
"give me a tissue"?
The whole point of using the word WebTV is brand recognition. Once a brand graduates into the vernacular language, it become established very well. Kleenex will never go out of business because of this.
Hey, if it is an ARM, then it is basically a really really cheap Netwinder, probably running at 33 Mhz, but STILL.
If it just had an IDE controllet, I'd snarf one.
Sorry but it will not work. Diba is dead. PlanetWeb is dead. The RCA set-top box is dead. The only reason WebTV is still in business because a company was smoking crack and paid the outrageous sum of 450 MILLION dollars for them (they are worth $1.25 tops). Oh yeah, that company was Microsoft - the company of Innovation(TM) and Microsoft(TM) Consumer Choice(all rights reserved).
It will go under. Computers don't cost anything anymore, you can buy a kick ass system for about 600 dollars and that price will go down. WebTV's are sold BELOW manufacturing cost just so that people will buy them and then they hope to make it up in service cost over a period of 2 years. At my previous company we played with the idea of buying 100,000 boxes and not buying the service just to brankrupt them. This is doomed to be a market failure.
However, I think it is neat they are using Linux. If there is any chance they will succeede they will have to reduce all possible costs and using a free OS is a start.
There's a whole lot of disposable income locked up in people that get confused when they have to operate a Dimmer switch. Unfortunatly they outnumber us and have more finiancial/political resources than us.
This is where I say: "don't be a fool, contract you moron!" or "Get confident, stupid!". I refuse dumber people than me to make more money than me if I can help it.
I know of quite a few people, most over fifty, that use webTV and think its great. All they want is something to check their investments, Recieve email from their grand kids and buy Rush Limbaughs latest book on amazon.com.
Yes, but WebTV is loosing money. As all the "webtop" boxes did. Since microsoft owns WebTV they can afford to do this. Startup's can't. This is why it might be a marketing success and a financial failure.
When you think of it webTV is a pretty elegant solution for the lowest common denominator: Email and Browsing, Appliance like, simple and have you ever heard of one Crashing? I haven't.
Actually, I have seen one crash and several times. We were reverse engineering it. It uses a lot of customized chips, that is why it is so damn expensive to make.
I'm just saying that WebTV will undercut them and product dump until they go under. It doesn't take much to do that to a startup and Microsoft sure as hell isn't above bending the law to keep out competition.
I know, RCA is now 7.5% owned by MS, and RCA no longer makes a (what did they call it) "Network Computer"? However, they do work with WebTV now, and they use WinCE! I left after that.
of Microsoft using the term "Open Source" (GASP) out of context, the great CmdrTaco might wish to watch his words when using a trademarked term such as "WebTV" to describe a device which is CLEARLY not a true WebTV device.
WebTV TM at USPTO
WebTVs on trial in Europe use 640x480 (for PAL systems)....
If it gets me VNC client on my TV then I want one!
isn't web tv owned by microsoft now?
I wonder if it will be available in the US...
> At diba we did all our original developlement on
> linux, writing the video and IR drivers on
> linux, then porting them to the settop when the
> boards were done.
Any chance of these Linux drivers being released?
QualityClick.com is having a fire sale on a device called the "Webpal". It is made by Newcom and while it doesn't run Linux, it is completely standards based (no proprietary protocols like WebTV). It comes with a wireless remote and keyboard, 33.6K modem, and S-video/ composite/VGA outputs. There's likely no future support for the box, but its still kind of interesting. Details are here .
I didn't work as a regular employee at Diba but I did work with them and had the Linux version of the Diba browser. It wasn't bad at all but it would pale in comparison to the more modern browsers that are now available. One feature I liked a lot was being able to browse via keyboard, that should be added to mozilla in my opinion.
$425 Million for a startup company with 50,000
subscribers at the time does seem outrageous.
WebTV would have gone under like Netchannel did
if Bill Gates' billions weren't there to cover
the loses. There were probably a lot of strategic
reasons for Microsoft to want to control the
platform: the technology in the settop, access
to the TV audience, and, of course, the perceived
threat of an alternative to Wintel and IE on Sun
based Solaris Network Computers.
I know you did. I worked with you guys. Too bad that you got bought out by Sun. Do you still drink alcohol on Friday nights? Are you hiring contractors? :) BTW, I loved your pool table and the building was cool.
it seems to have an arm processor and 1 meg flashrom. evil grin :-) has anyone gotten one yet to play with?
djweis
All but one of the original people at diba have split from Sun. The guy running the Diba division is a real idiot. The old building was great. I hear it is on the market.
:)
/* see an error? */
I take it that you're not working there anymore.
It's a tradgedy that the code never got used. I heard that Sun bought you for your hardware (which I must admit wasn't too bad). Again, I'm really really really sorry that Thomson didn't sign a contract for you guys. Navio had a hot demo and that is all that matters, it was irrelevant that your code worked on our box and Navio's was C++ crap (not that C++ is crap, but their's was). I worked with Navio a little bit too, when they ported from VxWorks to our OS (OS/9? I think - something from IBM anyhow) code looked something like this:
void get_integer (int *integer_to_get);
void main_fun()
{
int *i;
get_integer (i);
*i = 5;
}
And I'm 100% serious. It was a mess. That's when I started taking Dilbert really seriously.
I'll drop you a note for the names of the former head honcho. I know now that it was a faux pas to mention names. Sorry, I've been up for 2 days trying to finish code before the end of my contract and my rope.
WebTV boxes on trial in Europe can support 640x480 (in PAL) and in theory even wider on widescreen PAL
There's a whole lot of disposable income locked up in people that get confused when they have to operate a Dimmer switch. Unfortunatly they outnumber us and have more finiancial/political resources than us.
I know of quite a few people, most over fifty, that use webTV and think its great. All they want is something to check their investments, Recieve email from their grand kids and buy Rush Limbaughs latest book on amazon.com.
When you think of it webTV is a pretty elegant solution for the lowest common denominator: Email and Browsing, Appliance like, simple and have you ever heard of one Crashing? I haven't.
so when I'm in my golden years, and the radiation from sitting in front of a 21" monitor has left me sterile, I hope some enterprising young buck makes a user frendly "Virtual Reality" rig that i can use long after I've forgotten my kids names...and he better use a stable OS so I dont have to reboot it in the middle of sky diving Naked with Carmen Diaz...
That where I want to go tomorrow! Where's my checkbook?
This isn't WebTV. Microsoft does own WebTV, 100%. They bought WebTV (get this) for almost a HALF BILLION DOLLARS. I don't think they are ever going to make a profit on this baby.
The problem is that a WebTV costs $300 in PARTS, that does not include manufacture, nor distribution. They then have to keep their customers signed up for 2 years to just break even (not inclusing inflation) - anybody that drops the service will cost the company money. It isn't a very good business model.
Do you think in 2 years a PC will be built that is 4 times as powerful and costs about $200-$300 dollars? I do. Current low end PC's that cost about $600 are 4 times as powerful.
If WebTV came out in 1990 it would have been a great idea, but so far, they haven't made a profit and likely never will. WebTV was bought by MS to push WinCE and IE (neither of which is yet in the WebTV settop box yet - go figure).
No... what you read was an opinion peice on a macOpinion (linked here) about the possibility in an attempt to kill windows (and about the adverse effect this could have on the mac... ect ect)
t opia/
its a pretty good article and it is available here
http://www.macopinion.com/fi.cgi?url=/columns/u
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
If you, or anyone else, knows where I can find one for under USD$1000, email me immediately, you will be rewarded well... :P
Posted by the Proteus
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
There is a decent market of people (the same group that might buy an iWhack) who would be interested in a TV-top web box. Especially if it is very inexpensive. Since this one runs Linux (or is it GNU/Linux? [sorry, couldn't resist]), cheap is a good bet.
My point? The Linux/OpenSource/FreeSoftware community should, at the very least, send praise the way of this company - this is one good route to getting The Penguin into the hands of the average home user. So, if this markets well, it could set a precedent - not only for more Linux-embedded products, but also for Linux in the hands of the general populace.
If I were MS, or some other large computer corp, I'd be watching this box carefully. Let's show 'em that something non-"standard" can fly...
Posted by the Proteus
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
Maybe I'm wrong, but I guess, since they're European, they may be talking about a PAL encoder.
Ok, it all looks good to me at first glance, but are they just using a (modified?) Linux kernel, or aligning themselves with a distribution?
All but one of the original people at diba have split from Sun. The guy running the Diba division
is a real idiot. The old building was great. I hear it is on the market.
E-mail me privatly an I will give you the names
you want. Yea the Friday drinking parties were great, Jose rules.
At diba we did all our original developlement on
linux, writing the video and IR drivers on linux, then porting them to the settop when the boards were done. The devices shipped with pSos.
-- Fast, Cheap, Well. Pick two.
Ooops. They DO have an Ethernet version planned.
Oh well, at least My Yahoo remembered it was my birthday.
-- Fast, Cheap, Well. Pick two.
Well Linux is free, and it has a bunch of media hype behind it right now. How many of these units do you think they'll sell just because of "linux". The fact that they won't have to pay any royalties will make that deal even sweeter for them. Also, w/ the source to the kernel they can easily remove a lot of the stuff that they don't have any use for.
-matt
Senior Taco: Although the Slashdotters may scoff at producst like WebTV, they now have 700,000 members signed up! Like it or not, they are a major force in the ISP world. They've gone from 0 to 700k, and have surpassed many other major national ISPs. Check the last couple of issues of Industry Standard for the story.
However, I'd still love to see a linux-based consumer net-appliance kick some butt. I'd gladly recommend that product to my parents.
-jason
Didn't I read somewhere that AOL/Netscape was thinking of using Linux for a similar project?
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. --Benjamin Franklin
If this machine had an IR remote... I'd be really impressed. If not, a friend of mine was using a wireless Wombat keyboard/pointer combo and it worked great with linux. Anybody know what's going to be bundled with this system?
-Sapo
I heard that the entire AOL service actually runs on Linux Servers, but the client only runs on Mac/Windows.
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
For the same reason Corel decided not to use QNX on its netwinder PC's. Linux was better, and it got them in the news. (free publicity!)
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
Why would they use a distribution? It seems weird that they use the Linux kernel at all. It must be kinda bloated for a task like this. Why don't they use QNX or a similar kernel?
Actually, it looks like there's French involved so it could also be SECAM. :o)
Hopefully they will use a multi-standard encoder, thus NTSC/PAL and maybe SECAM.
Anyways, I would like to know which one, to see if their clame's are rite.
Breace.
Ugh... And I'm from Europe... I should know...
Breace.
Anybody an idea what NTSC encoder gives a 640 x 480 resolution (without deformation)?
They have been trying for years but I've never seen anything decent.
Breace.
"have you ever heard of [WebTV] Crashing? I haven't."
WebTV settop boxes don't crash, they "fail".
They either don't connect to the WebTV Server
or they just don't work, period. My impression
is that a certain percentage of WebTV settop
boxes develop problems within a few months.
The WebTV Plus (Second Generation) boxes have
been particularly problematic with their WebTV
controlled hard drives (yes these can "crash").
The WebTV boxes do not have an operating system
in the PC sense. The first generation WebTV box
MUST be connected to the WebTV Server to do
anything. I'm not sure about the Plus Units since
they are equiped with TV Tuners that appear to be
able to work without the unit being connected to
the server. But the plus, too must be connected to
the WebTV Server in order to access the
internet.
There was some speculation that a Third Generation
WebTV box would have Windows CE, but no third
generation box has been introduced yet. It has
been over a year and a half since the WebTV Plus
was introduced which came out only a year after
the original WebTV settop box was first rolled
out. My own opinion is that Microsoft introduced
the WebTV Plus in order to counter the
introduction of the RCA Netchannel Box in late
1997 which died a merciful early death in 1998.
Since no serious competition has arisen since,
Microsoft has not upgraded the service.
Many of the promised updates to WebTV made
prior to Microsoft have yet to be
realized. Personal Java was promised in 1997
but later dropped. Real Audio was not updated
after 3.0. The WebTV service is essentially
unchanged since late 1997. A few video related
features have been added to the Plus box in 1998
like sending a video still through Email as well
as TV related features but enhancements to
WebTV's internet access have not been made since
1997.
The WebTV SYSTEM has crashed on at least two
occasions. In December, 1997, in what has been
referred to as the "Christmas crash" and again in
late June and/or early July 1998. More people
were attempting to sign up and get connected for
the first time than the registration server could
handle and caused the entire system to crash on
both occasions.
Oh yes, the WebTV servers run on Solaris according
to the best information I can get. Microsoft
evidently did want WebTV to switch to NT, but
it appears that has not happened yet. Sort of
like the situation with Hotmail.
Subscriber Numbers for WebTV are VERY suspect.
In early 1997, WebTV's claimed subcriber group
was MUCH higher than was indicated in their
filings with the Securities and Exchange
Commission when Microsoft bought them out.
Is this 700,000 settop boxes sold or an actual
700,000 settop boxes connected and set up?
There is a difference.
They're not talking about whether the display on screen is distorted or not compared to a regular computer monitor, but instead that the device supports a resolution that uses square pixels instead of rectangular pixels (which would cause a webpage to be displayed in a weird manner). It seems that many set-top boxes sold in Europa use rectangular-pixel display modes.
^D
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
I guess this means that you can hack away on your Linux box while sitting in fromt of the TV. Anyone have any specs on the computer used? It might make a really good, cheap linux box.
:)
Imagine having your home firewall connected to your TV.
I would love to have a wireless keyboard/mouse with my computer. In fact, I wouldn't mind coupling those with a high-quality projector (computer quality, not TV quality) and working on my wall.
How much is a good 1024x768 or higher projector? What about quality?
æeee!