Village Voice on Voices From The Hellmouth

Catatomic writes "The Village Voice has an interesting article about Katz "Voices From The Hellmouth" Check it out here. " Well, interesting is one way to put it; incendiary is another. Worth checking out though. Click below to get a response from Katz, who was interviewed for this article. I'm not a big fan of intra-media incestuous disputes, and I take plenty of criticism and disagreement without complaint. But I'm getting a lot of e-mail about this, and I feel strongly about the Hellmouth series, so I feel ought to respond. The Voice piece was, in my mind, neither an honest nor accurate reflection of a very brief, hurried interview I gave on the phone with the writer who calls himself Jane Dark a couple of weeks ago. First off, I made a huge point of not comparing these experiences to the Holocaust. Not a single e-mailer made that comparison, and I think it's ludicrous, although the pain in these messages was truly breathtaking.But to liken their experiences to the Holocaust has never occurred to me, or to the thousands of kids e-mailing me. Many did compare the experience of being outsiders to being gay.

I said the e-mails had the feeling of testimony, which survivors of disasters often used. He asked me if this were like the Holocaust, and I said I suppose the idea of testimony was similiar, but that they weren't comparable experiences. So here's a lesson in how media work.

Dark asked me a half dozen times if these were all middle-class males, and I said no: nearly half were women, and my impression -- Î couldn't know for sure -- was that a huge chunk were working class kids. The Voice piece obviously reflects a pre-conceived and provocatively contrarian point of view, to which the writer is perfectly well entitled.

But I think it's pretty snarky to misrepresent what I said in support of it. He could just say it himself. I don't know why he even bothered to call. And I'm not into squawking about what reporters write. If you dish it out, you ought to take it.

Then, of course, there's the profoundly stupid idea at the heart of the piece that middle-class kids bring victimization on themselves, or don't deserve sympathy if they are harassed, humiliated, excluded, or sent home or suspended for being different from most other middle-class kids. In fact, it's so foolish an idea I doubt he even believes it.

This may be an honest difference of opinion, but it sure wasn't honestly gathered.So I'm telling the people e-mailing me to move on. Let's not play.

Comments

Afraid of losing oppressed status

[Anonymous Coward]

This article sounds like it was written by someone who has been claiming oppressed class status and is afraid of losing it if some other group is also seen to be oppressed.

It also sounds like the same old crap about how middle-class white kids can't possibly have problems because they are part of the alleged white male conspiracy against all minorities and women.

The truth is, something has gone horribly wrong with these kids, and to attack them for saying something about it is simply shooting the messenger. It doesn't matter who is saying it, attacking those who say it doesn't do anything to fix the actual problems.

Until every person in middle and high schools in this country is safe from harassment and abuse from their peers, and until schools take a hard look at the established cliques, we will continue to see this kind of problem.

But it doesn't stop there. The schools alone can't solve this problem. Not only do parents need to start taking responsibility for every aspect of their children's lives, they must begin to instill in them a sense of respect for others and an understanding that other people are also human and do not exist for their amusement.

Children who are raised with a solid moral grounding (and no, I'm not advocating religion, just a simple, straightforward moral code) will be able to resist whatever is thrown at them by society, and be able to stand up for their own values.

We can ban violent games, internet access for kids, violent movies, even guns, but unless we bring these kids back into the fold soon, there will only be more Littletons.

This can be fixed without tearing down the Constitution, but it will require an effort on everyone's part. And it will probably require an outbreak of common sense in the newsmedia and in the legislatures.

Enough ranting for now :).

Re:Insecure kids?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the point that many people made in Katz's piece. It's not about being called a loser because you're smart. It's about getting beaten day after day for not doing anything. I can handle someone calling me stupid, or not inviting me out on a Friday night. I can't handle a 300 pound meathead beating the crap out of me. It's illegal and immoral, and there's no reason for it to continue, whether the person being beaten is white, black, gay, straight, male, female, etc. These people need to learn to control their feelings and take them out in other ways.

-D

Re:Maslow's pyramid?

[ender]

Why do American kids cry out against their station in life more loudly than their European or Ausie counterparts? American kids are the result
of the "ME" generation. It's all about them, it's all about being 'happy with who they are'. It's all about being 'special'. They lack the feeling of
community and common welfare.

The problem is that suffering (as well as.. joy?) are subjective. If I feel that I am suffering maximally, and so does an etheopian child, then to me and that child, we're suffering equally. You cannot gauge a person's problems from outside of them. Yes, you can say that in fact, the ethopian child is suffering more objectively, but to the white middle-class kid who gets beat up in school for being a geek, his hell is no less hot by his standards.

American teens are more out of touch with this than teens in other countries. The "American Dream" and "keeping up with the Joneses" tells
them that if they don't have the BEST, they don't have it good. If they don't have it good, they then must have it bad.

I fail to see how this has to do with being ousted by a community. In high school, I was "less than popular." I was a geek, I was into computers, and worst of all, I was fat. Wether or not I had money, or a nice house, or whatever, that made no difference to tormentors. (odd that "mentor" is present in that word) I don't think I "had it bad," materialistically I had it pretty good, and I was well aware of that. However, that has nothing to do with how you feel emotionally because someone else deems you "unworthy" of popularity, of acceptance.

To summarize: even if you have a billion dollars and all the best stuff in the world, if you're say, clinically depressed, then your life is still a living hell. If you're poor, but find happiness in something then I say you're better of than the person who "has it all."

If you're a jock, and you feel horribly worried that you won't be accepted so you beat up some kid who's different but it tears you up inside, then i'd say you're just as bad off as the kid you beat up, but you chose a more harmful way to deal with it.

High schools are one of the worst inventions ever created. They foster horrible class structures based on the wrong criteria. I don't know a solution, but I do recognize a problem here.

Letter to the editor

[miniver]

Here's the letter I wrote to the editor of the Village Voice; I encourage everyone else to write to them as well.

Dear Sirs:

I just finished reading your feature "Suffer the (White, Middle-Class) Children" (http://www.villagevoice.com/features/9921/dark.sh tml) and I must say I am quite disappointed. Your writer apparently heard stories of suffering and pain, then checked a color bar and saw "white" and "male" and concluded that the pain and suffering weren't real, and that this was just the white, male establishment trying to steal the identity-politics initiative. Hardly the journalistic thoroughness that The Village Voice is known for.

Neither Jon Katz, nor the thousands of kids and adults that wrote him, claimed that they were the only people being punished for being different; all they said was "Hey, it's happening here, too." School *is* Hell; Matt Groening wasn't telling any new tales when he drew that collection of cartoons a decade ago.

I've never been a fan of identity-politics -- I've always felt that the problem was "the system" was taking advantage of individuals, because individuals rarely have any way to fight the system or even of knowing that the system doesn't have to be that way. Black, white, female, male, adult, child: as individuals we are all easily oppressed; only by gathering together can we become strong enough to fight the system.

But there are plenty of special interests that have figured out that they don't have to gather everyone and address all the problems -- all they need is to gather enough people from a single category, and focus on one set of problems -- and they'll have found their own special path to power, and representation within the system, consequently make the system that much worse for the rest of us. Blacks, women, gays, the elderly, the poor, the handicapped -- they all have their special needs and special desires, and their own special advocates who are all just more cogs in the system.

Your writer and your editorial policies indicate to me that The Village Voice is proud of its place within the system, and isn't interested in anyone else upsetting the status quo. Just remember when you send your kids off to school in the morning, you're condemning them to the same daily torture that you once suffered, and remind yourself that you had a chance to say and do something about it -- and decided not to rock the boat. I hope you feel proud of yourselves.

Racist Liberal Pap...

[Bander]

I found the article pretty offensive, personally. It showed the ugliest side of reverse discrimination, the part that says, "your pain has no validity because you don't match our idea of an oppressed group." The fact Ms Dark assumes that the people who contributed their personal stories to Katz's series are white males is so patently racist that I'm shocked her editors didn't call her on it.

None of the respondents even mentioned their race. For all we know, many of the contributors were non-caucasian and non-male. That wasn't so much relevant as the fact that they considered themselves nerds and geeks.

I consider myself a liberal on many social issues, but this Village Voice article is exactly the kind of "liberalism" that makes me want to puke.

-- Bander

Insecure kids?

[dpg]

I'm sort of afraid to ask this, but....why do
these things seem to be centred around the US?

I'm not sure on the demographics, but I know
Australia has one of the highest person/net usage
in the world, most of the kids I know play console
games, we get all the terrible US telly, and yet
we don't seem to have the same problems.

I know that I was bagged at high school for being
geeky, but who cares? Do other people opinions
_really_ make that much difference to how you
think about yourself? I certinaly didn't give
myself an ulcer over it.

Just think of the people who critisise you as
being stupider than you are, merely trying to
bring you down because of their dissatisfaction
with their own intelligence. Makes you feel
better :)

Re:Insecure kids?

[sethg]

I'm sort of afraid to ask this, but....why do these things seem to be centred around the US?

Maybe it has something to do with American suburbia. The culture of the stereotypical US suburb depends on:

• cheap land outside cities
• a tax system that favors homeowners
• local government control of police departments, fire departments, schools, and zoning
• gas taxes that are, by First World standards, extremely low
• generous government subsidies for road-building

Because of these conditions, the following things developed over the past forty years or so:

• Middle-class people can easily move out of central cities, buy houses in the suburbs, and rely on their cars to take them to work, shopping, etc.
• Zoning laws prevent developers from building townhouses or apartment buildings in many suburban areas, so people below a certain economic level can't afford to move there.
• Since local governments depend primarily on local property taxes for funding, wealthier suburbs can attract people with their well-funded public schools, well-maintained streets, and so on. Meanwhile, some central cities found their tax base leaking away, so they had trouble funding adequate school systems and police departments. This encouraged more middle-class urban residents to move to the suburbs.
• When the US legislature and courts outlawed segregation in the 1960s, many whites moved from the cities to the suburbs, so that their children would go to an all-white suburban school rather than a racially integrated urban school.

These trends are beginning to reverse, but I think the average American suburb is more bland, er, homogeneous (ethnically and economically) than a large city in the US or in Europe. In a large, crowded city, a slightly "abnormal" kid can find friends and hangouts that match his or her interests and quirks. In the suburbs, it's much harder, especially for a kid who's too young to drive, so these kids are more likely to be at the mercy of their classmates.

The Poison of Politically Correct.

[malkavian]

Maybe it's just me... But the whole article reeks of the prose of one of the hardcore Politically Correct.
From the title alone, "Suffer the (white, middle-class) Children", you get a taste of the real issue the author is addressing.
The fact the kids are white and middle class.
There's no real addressing of the 'Geek Profiling', no attempt to address the fact that the most sensitive of the kids are being picked on, for the sheer fact that they are sensitive, and show the most reaction to being hurt.
Oh yes, that article is penned in eloquent English, with the verbal flourishes and pomp that accompany the arrogant and self obsessed.
There was one mention of ethics. And one of compassion.
The rest was about politics. 'Progressive' politics. 'Identity' politics.
And the sum up paragraph drove home what the author really seemed to be directing all this flamboutance at (and don't be fooled, it is almost entirely flambouyant waffle.. There is very little not no real meat in this article...)...
The impression in her mind that the white middle class males are trying to steal the 'identity' of the 'opressed' (read 'black', 'from the slave origin', Politically Correct garbage).
Is that all it comes down to in the minds of some, that all the pain and suffering is merely political vying to see who can be the biggest victim??
I'm white, was brought up middle class, and had a rather nasty breakdown at 11 due to bullying.
All the PC administration would do is tell me 'I ought to get to know them better, they're nice really... You should invite them round for dinner'... Every excuse under the sun, and many that weren't...
I wasn't interested in being a victim, and I'm not now...
Faecal matter occurs.. Deal with it.
This isn't about politics, or something that happened generations ago.. People have grown up a little since then.. They understand a lot more...
This is about something that's happening now..
It's about ethics. It's about opening your eyes and seeing that the people who change the course of the world are those that think differently...
And if you kick that person all their life, when they change the world, will they not kick back?
At school, is the place where attitudes are formed... And, I know very well that it's a nightmare for the teachers to cut the fine balance between overprotecting the children (as seems to be the rage in the US), and offering them no protection at all.. Or maybe protecting them from the wrong things...
Every child needs a challenge.. They need the ability to prosper and grow...
The physically inclined require physical challenges (so, install a few adventure playgrounds... The few bruises and grazes they garner are proud badges to a child, to show wht they've achieved... But, oh, I forgot, in the US, the parents would sue the school for 'damaging their child'...), the bookish need the company of the bookish, so they can exercise their minds and feelings in peace...
I'm sorry, but I feel nothing but contempt for the author's offhand dismissal of the problem as being politics...
It's not.. It's about the people... It's about the future.
Only when people stop shouting about politics and the 'use' of the 'victim culture', and deal with the people who hurt, but refuse to identify themselves as victims.. Just as people who hurt, will things start to become clearer...
Just my tuppence worth,

Malk

Huh?

[GeekBoy]

Was it just me or was there an undercurrent of
bigotry, prejudice and racism in that article
nicely clothed in a wrapper of political
correctness? Not only that it dripped with a
thinly veiled bitterness.

Oh, of coure, I forgot. All us white middle class
folk are part of a conspiracy to oppress everyone
else. For her information it has nothing to
do with race or class (I'm 1/2 chinese myself).
Don't peg people with race or class labels.
Only the small minded do that. I'm not saying
that there aren't minority groups and that they
don't get oppressed sure they do. BUT, you can't
define a "minority" group by race and class
alone, if you are to do it at all.

She should get off her, we are so down-trodden
holier than thou, "horse." Wake up, your
type of thinking that labels and classifys others
and then pre-judges them based on YOUR arbitrary
classifications is EXACTLY like that of those other
small minded bigots who I image, and you insinuate,
persecuted and oppressed you. We need to realise
that people are people no matter where you go.
We all have the same wants and needs, hopes and
dreams, as everyone else. Whether your white,
black, hispanic, asian, whatever. Judge people
on the merit of WHO THEY ARE, not where they
come from, what they look like or how much money
they make.

The pity is that she has failed to realise that
she has become just like those "racist bigots"
that she hates so much. Poisoning yourself with
bitterness will not make you a better person.
I sympathise but we all have issues. Ever had to
deal with the extreme loneliness of being from
a bi-racial family? (man I hate using this
terminology, but it's probably the only thing
you'll understand). You're of two different
cultures but belong to none, not accepted by
either side. Until you stop looking at everything
through the glasses of race and start drawing
on the strength that your unique background
gives you. Same thing for anyone from a single
minority. But you can't get to that point in
your personal growth without letting go of the
bitterness, hate and frustration that you've
accumulated. It starts with forgivness. Sounds
cheesy but it's true.

Cheers.


********************************************
Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu

Minimize my pain!

[lar3ry]

Home alone on Friday night. Gas chambers.

I don't think that Jon's article went that far, and despite that, I do think that the Village Voice article raises quite a few interesting points.

Yes, it sucks to be a kid. But, unlike the author of that article, I believe that you can decide against the moves for playing along with the popularity game.

Twenty-some odd years ago, I was in the same situation as Jon's correspondants. I was a computer nerd (geek wasn't used back in 1974). I didn't earn the anger of the more popular students, but rather they just ignored me totally.

There is NOTHING that justifies what happened in Littleton. But also, there is NOTHING that justifies what has happened in the aftermath of Littleton -- expulsions, suspensions, geek counseling, "geek profiling," etc.

The establishment is overreacting, as usual. But let us not overreact as well.

School sucks. College sucks. Work sucks. Life sucks.

It's up to you to figure out how to win the game. Spraying a school with bullets isn't the answer. Succeeding is the answer.

How? Everybody will have to figure that out for himself/herself.

--

Shifting the blame

[Rayban]

The Village Voice seems convinced that oppression can be blamed on the oppressed (read the last paragraph). It's like saying, "You weren't very happy in that German death camp, so why didn't you just leave?"

I don't believe students always have someone to talk to, or they might not be sure of who to talk to. As well, by shifting the blame to the victims, it almost suggests that this abusive behaviour is acceptable, which it isn't.

Look at the men and women in abusive relationships. How many times have they been asked, "Why don't you just get out of there?" I think people need help to realize that there are more options than violence, and the people involved in the oppression should be taught respect for their fellow students/people/etc.

Why not attack this problem from both sides?

Not the worst article, but...

[laura20]

I think the article is criticizing some things that were never really said -- Katz was comparing the email he was getting to the *tone and format* of holocaust testimonies, not so much the crimes committed against the kids to death camps.

As for the criticism of "The idea that this group could move into the slot of the oppressed, as well as occupying the traditional role of the oppressor...." I don't know of many geeks who end up 'the oppressor'. It's true that if geeks survive high school, many of them will end up successful, but that doesn't make them the 'oppressor'; and I'm offended by the implication that later success obviates horrendous early abuse. Did her escape from slavery invalidate Sojourner Truth's rage at bondage?

There was also a trick pulled that even people on slashdot have done -- amalagating different levels of abuse to say 'hey, everyone is miserable in high school, stop being such a martyr.' Under this technique, unhappiness at not making the cheerleader squad is cheerfully is treated as indistinguishable from rape and attempted murder.

In elementary school, for example, I was definitely the wierd kid and abused, but I didn't suffer *daily* abuse. Some of the individual incidents were pretty bad, but while they may have led to longterm scarring, they didn't cause the sheer irrationality that daily abuse did -- as I discovered when I got to junior high, and got to be the (fairly randomly picked) scapegoat. If you haven't experienced the terror of going to class *knowing* you will be tripped and spat at and verbally torn down *with the passive, or even active approval of teachers and adminstrators*, it's almost impossible to understand the insanity it causes -- you stop being able to judge whether a bump in the hall was an accident or another attack, you can't tell if an overture of friendship is real or a trap, you are in a constant state of fear and tension... there were times when I *wanted* to kill, when if I had had a weapon in my hand people would have been dead. I didn't, thank god, but I can't help but understand the rage utterly.

Then I got to high school, where I was a pretty normal kid (the adminstration didn't tolerate bullying, and the geek clan was large enough that we had our own gravity and protection from abuse.) Had occasional unhappy times, just like anyone else, and I think a lot of people who weren't abused but also weren't in the top cliques look back at their sometimes-unhappy times and think it's the same as the worst abuse.

Laura

PS: If you want a lovely look at the attitude at Columbine high, take a look at Chuck Green's Sunday column. The captain of the Columbine football team is under a restraining order to stay away from his ex-girlfriend; he's facing a criminal charge for threatening her; he was picked up by sheriff's deputies prowling outside her house; he was caught by a teacher intimidating her in school; he threw himself in front of her car. Dear Principal DeAngelis's reaction? Suspend a *jock*? The captain of their precious football team, the one they have a sports medicine doctor for? Oh, forfend, no! Instead, he told the girl's parents that she should leave school.

Everybody's got an opinion after death

[dmorin]

This might be offtopic or even flamebait, but it's been on my mind, so I'll say it. Worst that happens is I get moderated :).

It's easy to say anything you want after somebody dies. Just a few weeks ago, some kid walked through a school in Georgia and shot a bunch of people. Nobody died - the kid didn't kill himself. Where's the outrage, where's the compassion? Where are the millions of people rushing to the aid of this kid, somebody that you could actually help?? I gotta feel something for him moreso than those at Littleton, because here's a kid who was so emotionally tortured that it drove him to try doing something similar, but at least he still had a spark of humanity left in him that wouldn't let him do it.

When people ask "Oh my god, what went wrong? What could we have done?" I don't think they really want to know. That's why they ask it of dead people, because they won't get an answer. They like to beat themselves up and feel guilty, but not *that* guilty. Not so guilty that they'll actually have to do anything about the problem.

Geeks "choose" to be outcast?

[coyote-san]

I think the most offensive aspect of that article, which is saying a lot, is the implication that geeks choose to be outcasts.

Sucks to be a kid. Sucks especially if you decide againt the moves for playing along with the popularity game.

I guess the editor will also dismiss antisemitism; you can't help Jews who decide against adopting the dominant religion.

I know the editor dismisses homosexuality. At least, homosexuality among white males, the only other example of an identity group driven by the white middle class. I guess white male gays wear the jackboots used to put down other gays.

And why do I keep thinking about the charming old tradition of "passing"? A black kid with light skin tones who doesn't attempt to "pass" as white deserves what he gets, neh?!

I guess I've been deluding myself by seeing people as individuals, not as official minority groups and the oppressive overclass. Where I see Bob, a nice guy who happens to be an athlete, I should see a jock -- can't reserve the latter term for athletes with attitude problems vis-a-vis non-athletes. And Sue, the math genius, must always be referred to as Sue, black coed.

And I must never, ever, recognize that Bill is being beaten up because other students have labeled him a 'snortzball.' A 'snortzball' is not a Recognized Political Correctness "identity group" and his bloody nose is therefore his own damn fault for running into Allen's, Sam's, Jim's, John's, Roger's, and George's fist. Repeatedly.

With Focus on the Family and other "right thinking" religious groups headquartered within 100 miles I've always identified myself as liberal. But I find this shit far more offensive than anything I've seen come out of the conservative camp.

Village Voice fails to get it

[The Winter Queen]

Once again the voice misses the point.

First, they use this as an excuse to pick on white males. It seems to me that they didn't actually read the Hellmouth section or the would have seen that there were many comments from non-white males. Last time I checked I was not one of those.

Also, they seemed to miss what was happeneing. We are not upset because were were simply picked on. If it had been just name calling it wouldn't have been a big deal.

But let's fact it, it never stopped at simple taunting. Most of the people (myself included) indured far more than that. We were physicly assulted, spit on and in some cases sexually harrased.

We aren't looking for ppl to feel sorry for us, that part of my life is over and I'm over it. I just hope that someone might sit up and listen the next time a kid is beaten up for being different, rather than just ignoring it the way most school officals do now.

And again, "they" don't get it.

[fable2112]

So the only thing wrong with us is that we don't "fit in," and otherwise we're overprivilged whiners?

I think not.

The gay-community parallels are perfectly appropriate here. In fact, "faggot" and "sissy" and "dyke" are typical insults directed at outsider kids, even if they are straight.

Many les/bi/gays are born in "priviliged" families, and some homophobe or other is always eager to kick around statistics that "prove" gay people earn more than straight people. (No, not all gay people, fools, just the ones comfortable enough to tell some random stranger that they are gay.)

As it happens, the suffering of the different and intelligent is nothing new. I'm a third-generation Hellmouth survivor: My grandfather suffered literal physical abuse at the hands of the nuns at his Catholic school because he's left handed. My mother, the smartest kid by far in her class, was denied the chance to be an exchange student because "she's just a steelworker's daughter." I've discussed my own experiences previously -- suffice it to say that I'm well aware of the cruelty of peers and teachers, having lived through it.

If you like, you can go read Oh No, Not Again!, which was my original reaction to Littleton, and Confessions of a Redhead, my follow-up after seeing Star Wars. The second one might not make much sense unless you're familiar with the Chronicles of Amber, though.

Maybe it's time to write another essay, and send it someplace where it'll do some good. Like the Village Voice, which I would have expected to have had better sense.

*disgusted sigh*