Posted by
Hemos
on from the dumb-dumb-and-dumb dept.
GiMP and 200 others wrote "C|Net has this story about the difficulty of getting ADSL from Bell South for linux machines, and the protest from users in the afflicted areas. " This story has been coming up a lot today. Hopefully the negative coverage will force BellSouth to relent.
I think this is normal. Most ISPs don't want customers who use Unix. They view us as dangerous. More likely to be knowledgable enough to cause trouble. This is essentially the same issue as universities that kick students off of the dorm networks for running Linux. I have personally had runins with two different ISPs because I use Linux. Another ISP was monitoring a friend of mine because he seemed "too knowledgable". I ended up working for that ISP, and we would scan the dialups for non-Windows machine, and keep at least soemwhat of an eye on those people that our scans turned up (~.1% of the user base). We definately kept track of who was using Linux or other Unixes. I didn't learn better because of what had been done to me, I just learned that it was a good idea. Ditto shell accounts, at first anyone actually using the shell accounts was kept track of (1% of the user base, although everyone had one and knew they had one), then it was just removed and those people kicked off, because they were more trouble than they were worth. Other ISPs in the area did similar things.
Never tell your ISP that you don't use Windows. You could find yourself being closely monitored. You could even find yourself subject to legal action. You will almost definately be made note of, either mentally or an actual list that is kept. When I move and call to set up an ISP account, I am as careful as when I call a hardware company for support.
Things are changing, with the popularity of Linux, but I still think the climate is generally so bad, that if you must tell your ISP that you don't use Windows, at least tell them that you have a Mac.
And as one of the persecutors, I can defend my actions. Although it may be different now, as recently as a year ago, and certainly 2-5 years ago, anyone demonstrating Unix knowledge is about 10 times more likely to be a "troublemaker". That means hacking their ISP's network or other networks, launching DOS attacks or becoming the victim of DOS attacks because of IRC confrontations, or any activity that generally makes them noticed.
Call the FCC too, and not just about this.
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 4
Don't just call your state's Public Service Commission. It's darned important you raise polite hell about BellSouth with the PSC, but don't just do it with them.
You also want to talk to the FCC and possibly the FTC too. Several reasons why...
The FCC can force change nationwide or at the least across BellSouth territory; a PSC can only affect change in one state.
If you contact the FCC as well, they can establish that BellSouth has a pattern of not only anticompetitive behaviour, but also of not serving in the public interest.
The FCC has an increasing number of complaints against BellSouth to begin with and is already investigating them.
The FCC has the right to revoke BellSouth's common carrier status (roughly equivalent to revoking their "license" to run a phone company) if BellSouth refuses to cooperate.
I'm even going to go so far as to say that you should complain to your PSC and the FCC and FTC even if you are NOT trying to get ADSL coverage from BellSouth. BellSouth is a company that indulges in anticompetitive tactics, and deserves to be spanked soundly for many reasons...
I would complain if you fall in ANY of the above categories and are in BellSouth country:
If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service only to be told your OS is not officially supported and told that you cannot connect to the network as a result.
If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service in an area where BellSouth is offering it (see if your area is covered or planned for coverage by hitting BellSouth's webpage) and are told that because you live in an apartment or are told for other reasons that ADSL is not available.
If you have inquired about ADSL from Bellsouth only to be told it is at some other expected time in future and the launch date keeps being pushed back.
If you have been quoted anything at all above ~$50-100/month for ADSL service. (BellSouth has often charged exorbitant prices for ADSL, assuming you can even get it; the planned price in Louisville is something like $400 installation and roughly $300/month metered.)
If you work for a telco and have attempted to sell leased line service for businesses, only to have BellSouth sell you lines at an actual profit to BellSouth and at such a markup as to make it impossible for your company to compete in terms of pricing.
If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth and are not in Tennessee. (Costs for ISDN service in most of BellSouth country are literally so expensive that a fractional T1 line is cheaper.)
If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth only to be told it is not available in your area because you are too far from the switching station or given any other reason.
If you are a BellSouth customer, in an area where BellSouth is offering both local and LD services (or, for that matter, local and/or LD and/or data services such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no local dialing providers at all. (It is illegal under the Telecommunications Act for BellSouth to offer LD or data services in any local market it services where competition does not exist for local dialup. THE FCC NEEDS TO BE TOLD IF THIS IS HAPPENING WHERE YOU LIVE.)
If you are in BellSouth territory, BellSouth offers LD and/or data services (such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no competitors that are as cheap or cheaper than BellSouth. (Again, they CANNOT sell LD or data services till local phone service competition exists.)
If you have been forced to buy T1 service from BellSouth or been forced to buy package deals from BellSouth for services such as caller ID or call forwarding. (There have been reports that folks who have tried to buy ADSL from BellSouth have been told ADSL cannot be installed nor can ISDN, and they have been pressured to buy a T1 line instead. Bellsouth makes its Big Money on T1 lines...BellSouth also has the habit of pricing optional services such as caller ID and call waiting so high that the mere combination of a regular phone line, CID, and call waiting is literally MORE EXPENSIVE than a $35/month package deal that comes with more services that they want to sell.)
BellSouth needs spanking on basic principle. Slashdot the hell out of the PSCs, the FCC, and the FTC and let them know just what you think of BellSouth's horrid service...best case, BellSouth is forced to clean up its act. Worst case, BellSouth loses its "phone company" license and someone more competent moves in like Unidial...hell, even US Worst would be better (at least you can actually GET AND AFFORD ADSL and/or ISDN).
You cannot "sniff" packets from your neighbor's cable modem. It's true that the data pipe is shared, but it's a better comparison to liken it to switched ethernet.
With cable modems, your download bandwidth isn't much of a problem. Cable networks were designed to spew out a crapload of digital bandwidth to the end users. Upload bandwidth is another story, and servers, obviously, will use a lot more of that bandwidth than people with normal Internet habits.
This is why cable services tend to have conditions that prohibit cable modem subscribers from running "servers."
I didn't say it *was* switched, I was offering that as an extension to the ethernet segment analogy.
Cable modems share bandwidth, but they don't share *data*. To my knowledge, you can't sniff your neighbor's cable modem packets. That would be one HUGE privacy/security problem for obvious reasons. No real public network would go online if that were the case.
Since they're both essentially owned by the same company and their tech support is mixed together, swbell shares these features.
I also don't think they bring a Windows laptop just because they like Windows and don't know anything about Linux; it's probably because they're using some proprietary diagnostics software that was written for Windows. Even if the laptop is just a basic working network system (no diagnostic software), it only makes sense for it to be Windows, since the vast majority of their customers will be Windows-based.
Why would this annoy your provider? IP's are IP's. They don't usually care if their customers end up with the same IP address for a long time or are assigned a new one every ten minutes.
Typically IP's are renewed by the OS/DHCP client software continually, so you keep the same IP for the entire time your system is online. When you reboot, however, you're assigned a new one like everyone else. Of course, there's also no reason why the DHCP server can't re-assign you the same IP you had before, but that's something on their end; you can't control that. Linux and Windows (or any other DHCP-capable OS) are pretty much identical in this respect; Linux just keeps its IP addresses longer on average because of its longer uptime. If your provider needs your IP address to change, they'll change it. Your DHCP client *must* check in at regular intervals to renew your IP lease. If your IP is slated to be changed, it will be changed then. Of course there's typically little reason to do this (unless they were renumbering their network).
Generally IP addresses are never changed while your system is online. This would of course result in the dropping of all of your existing network connections. Aside from an IP renumbering party, this has never happened to me on a DHCP network, though I don't have ADSL so I can't say if it's a common occurrence or not...
I wasn't satisfied with a computer generated denial because I stated Linux as my OS of choice, so I complained. Here's the intelligent reply from a human I got:
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 15:45:49 -0500 From: adsl@bellsouth.net To: dattaway@ebicom.net Subject: Re: BellSouth.net FastAccess ADSL Service Qualification Status (fwd)
Dear dattaway
Thank you for your recent e-mail message.
At this time, our technicians are configuring standard TCP/IP in Windows 95 and NT environments. Although we do not provide support for UNIX and LINUX , these platforms should support TCP/IP and Ethernet connections.
Therefore, it is possible to use ADSL with these types of systems.
For more information on ADSL access and answers to other questions you may have, please refer to our ADSL home page at the following address:
http://www.bellsouth.net/external/adsl
If you have any additional questions or comments, please e-mail us again.
Adam adsl@bellsouth.net
Start calling he Public Service Commission
by
dhms
·
· Score: 5
There are 2 (two) ways to force BellSouth to get its head out of its tail quickly:
1) Call your state's Public Service Commission. Explain the problem to them clearly and politely and how you have tried to resolve the problem. In most places, the RBOC gets hit with actual fines if they get too many complaints lodged with the PSC.
2) But a single share of stock, then call the "Presidents HotLine" of your local RBOC. Complain that you are a Linux user **AND** a shareholder and that you are being denied reasonable service and you expect to have an action plan from the company on how they will remedy the situation.
The key points to remember are to be a) polite and 2) concise. The folks you'rer dealing with are not computer experts like you... so make sure they get a favourable 2st impression!
_DHMS
Re:Lets show them are Disappointment
by
Jeff+Monks
·
· Score: 2
I didn't look for an email(Rushed) someone please post it and hit it hard.
Brilliant idea! I'm sure Bellsouth will cower at the feet of PacBell, SWBell, and BellAtlantic customers e-mailing them our outrage...
The only people who should directly contact BellSouth are customers who are affected by this policy. Just calling to complain on principle makes Linux users look like a mob of crying skr1pt k1dd1&z.
The rest of us, however, can make sure this gets good coverage, so BS will want to rectify the problem immediately to avoid a major PR debacle.
It's not a matter of supporting. I'd say it's more of a matter of allowing. They dont want to deal with people who cant connect while running Linux. They want a simple "reinstall the software and reboot" solution for the people crying on the phone, so they say no Linux. Not "supporting" Linux is fine. Linux supports itself. Not "allowing" it wont work unless they use some funky software tunnel for TCP/IP, and that would be pretty pointless.
A professor (of CS) of mine told me about a similar problem he experienced with his ISP (SNET.net ??) when he tried to get an account for his Macintosh.
It turned out that the company policy discriminated against all but Win95/98 users, not for reasons of idealism or secret agreements with the Evil Empire, but rather...
No technicians were trained to set up anything but Windows PC's, and the ISP didn't want to invest in the needed training (a day or two for each tech, tops).
After climbing all the way up the ladder of leadership at the ISP, my professor finally talked to someone with brains, and got a reasonable answer of: "We'll train a group of techs and give the non-Win customers to them"
-- Submitted for your consideration.
--
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
If you read the bottom of the article, they said they're working on getting Linux support as soon as they can, so I don't think they're trying to snub Linux users (although, how hard can it be to support Linux?).
They've already had their ears scratched off by Linux users, they've already said they're working on getting Linux support up, and now you wanna slashdot them?
They can certainly do better...
by
Zoinks
·
· Score: 2
...and it can start with their install techs. Sound like these guys need a little enlightenment. Either that or don't tell the techs your plans.
Mediaone (now Mediaone Road Runner) never explicitly supported Linux, and according to their current Service Agreement still don't support Linux. There's a FAQ now for how to hook up a cable modem to Linux, and Mediaone, while not supporting Linux, does not explicitly prohibit its use (there are many Linuxers on Mediaone).
The easiest thing to do is get your machine working with Windows, then make it work with Linux. That's what I did with Mediaone, and I never mentioned to the tech that I was planning to use Linux. I haven't used DSL, but it can't be any harder than a cable modem.
Is this disengenuous? I suppose it is a bit, but if you can figure out how Windows makes and maintains the connection, and then duplicate that with Linux, why should they care? (Just make sure your machine's secure:-) I think that a service provider would rather have someone paying for their service rather than go elsewhere because of this kind of nonsense.
Most likely for the same reason I had Linux on my primary machine when I was a cable modem user in San Diego. the ISP (@Home) loved to port scan people, and it's just too darn easy to drop those packets if you know how to configure your system. People running servers on 9x were routinely harrased by the admins, but those of us on Linux didn't have this problem for obvious reasons.
Most of the people I know at SWB Communications don't linux because of this, and other, simmilar issues. It basically amounts to the ISP wanting to maintain control, which isn't necessarily a "bad thing(tm)", but which I personally find distateful.
Sorry if I misspelled alot of words. See below.
... "I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way." - Samuel Clemens A.K.A. Mark Twain
"I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way." - Mark Twain
--
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
Also mention the magic words "common carrier"
by
coyote-san
·
· Score: 2
When you talk to the PUC you may also want to mention the magic words "common carrier".
A telco can impose reasonable technical standards on the physical and electrical characteristics of the devices attached to its network. It cannot impose restrictions on the communications across that network.
There are a few exceptions (e.g., speech which is criminal in all cases such as kiddie porn), but denying service to Linux systems simply because they are Linux is (or should be!) as unacceptable as denying service to Spanish speakers because they don't speak English!
This is where a polite mention that the other baby bells have no problem with Linux -- and neither does this telco, when the users quietly install Linux on their systems after the installer has left -- will go a *long* way. If the telco can't tell when some users have switched to Linux, and other telcos openly allow Linux boxes, then why is the telco making this an issue?!
-- For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Re:The ISP *can* control....bullshit
by
coyote-san
·
· Score: 2
Telcos, airlines, freight companies, etc., are "common carriers." I suggest you read an introduction to biz law book to get a feel for just how much that involves... and how useful it is.
ISPs have not been common carriers, although some of the provisions of the CDA are close. The courts have generally held that they get common carrier type protections only to the extent that they ignore what their customers are doing, modulo purely technical issues. E.g., they can monitor your activity to ensure you aren't consuming an inordinate amount of resources. They can monitor your packets to verify that they aren't malformed or otherwise indicative of trying to break other systems (e.g., portscanning). But if they try to restrict your service because you visit the "wrong" sites they open themselves up for legal action based on what they do allow.
(E.g., assume they prevent you, as an adult, from viewing playboy.com, but accidently allow a kid to access a hardcore site. Since they have demonstrated a willingness to restrict legal access to "pornography," then they must have intentionally allowed a kid illegal access to hardcore porn, neh? The penalties are usually far worse in this case than if the ISP simply ignored the content of visited sites.)
Hotel/motels are public accomodations with something close to "common carrier" status (they pretty much have to rent a room to anyone who can pay, space available), and apartments aren't a lot different. They can ban pets, but they can't ban assistance animals (e.g., seeing eye dogs). They generally can't ban children or limit families to particular units. They can reasonably limit the total number of occupants, but they can't refuse to rent to unmarried couples while accepting married couples. In some areas they can't refuse to rent to a gay couple. They can't refuse to rent a unit on the basis of gender, age, ethnic origin, religion, etc.
But unlike common carriers, apartments can reject applications on the basis of concern that they won't be able to pay the rent & possible damages a year down the road. Apartments can restrict the way the units are used. (E.g., no commercial use.) Apartment managers generally reserve the right to enter an apartment at any time, but telcos and shippers have extremely limited rights of this nature.
The bottom line to all of this is that ADSL service is offered by a telco and is almost certainly classified as a "common carrier" service. This means that the company must provide service to *anyone* who can pay and meets minimum technical standards. Since other telcos support Linux, and BellSouth itself apparently can't tell when customers switch to Linux, there is no reasonable technical problem with customers running Linux. Therefore the company must either accept Linux clients... or it must surrender its common carrier status. If it does the latter, it can be named as co-conspirator to every crime committed which involved a Bell South telephone in *any* manner. (E.g., it could be named as a codefendant if the murderer simply used a payphone to call the gun store to verify the hours they were opened, if he subsequently purchased the murder weapon at that store. Already that store is commonly named in civil suits. The cost of defending just one such suit would hire Linux support techs for many years.)
-- For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Slashdot Mirror
I think this is normal. Most ISPs don't want customers who use Unix. They view us as dangerous. More likely to be knowledgable enough to cause trouble. This is essentially the same issue as universities that kick students off of the dorm networks for running Linux. I have personally had runins with two different ISPs because I use Linux. Another ISP was monitoring a friend of mine because he seemed "too knowledgable". I ended up working for that ISP, and we would scan the dialups for non-Windows machine, and keep at least soemwhat of an eye on those people that our scans turned up (~.1% of the user base). We definately kept track of who was using Linux or other Unixes. I didn't learn better because of what had been done to me, I just learned that it was a good idea. Ditto shell accounts, at first anyone actually using the shell accounts was kept track of (1% of the user base, although everyone had one and knew they had one), then it was just removed and those people kicked off, because they were more trouble than they were worth. Other ISPs in the area did similar things.
Never tell your ISP that you don't use Windows. You could find yourself being closely monitored. You could even find yourself subject to legal action. You will almost definately be made note of, either mentally or an actual list that is kept. When I move and call to set up an ISP account, I am as careful as when I call a hardware company for support.
Things are changing, with the popularity of Linux, but I still think the climate is generally so bad, that if you must tell your ISP that you don't use Windows, at least tell them that you have a Mac.
And as one of the persecutors, I can defend my actions. Although it may be different now, as recently as a year ago, and certainly 2-5 years ago, anyone demonstrating Unix knowledge is about 10 times more likely to be a "troublemaker". That means hacking their ISP's network or other networks, launching DOS attacks or becoming the victim of DOS attacks because of IRC confrontations, or any activity that generally makes them noticed.
Don't just call your state's Public Service Commission. It's darned important you raise polite hell about BellSouth with the PSC, but don't just do it with them.
You also want to talk to the FCC and possibly the FTC too. Several reasons why...
The FCC can force change nationwide or at the least across BellSouth territory; a PSC can only affect change in one state.
If you contact the FCC as well, they can establish that BellSouth has a pattern of not only anticompetitive behaviour, but also of not serving in the public interest.
The FCC has an increasing number of complaints against BellSouth to begin with and is already investigating them.
The FCC has the right to revoke BellSouth's common carrier status (roughly equivalent to revoking their "license" to run a phone company) if BellSouth refuses to cooperate.
I'm even going to go so far as to say that you should complain to your PSC and the FCC and FTC even if you are NOT trying to get ADSL coverage from BellSouth. BellSouth is a company that indulges in anticompetitive tactics, and deserves to be spanked soundly for many reasons...
I would complain if you fall in ANY of the above categories and are in BellSouth country:
If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service only to be told your OS is not officially supported and told that you cannot connect to the network as a result.
If you have attempted to obtain ADSL service in an area where BellSouth is offering it (see if your area is covered or planned for coverage by hitting BellSouth's webpage) and are told that because you live in an apartment or are told for other reasons that ADSL is not available.
If you have inquired about ADSL from Bellsouth only to be told it is at some other expected time in future and the launch date keeps being pushed back.
If you have been quoted anything at all above ~$50-100/month for ADSL service. (BellSouth has often charged exorbitant prices for ADSL, assuming you can even get it; the planned price in Louisville is something like $400 installation and roughly $300/month metered.)
If you work for a telco and have attempted to sell leased line service for businesses, only to have BellSouth sell you lines at an actual profit to BellSouth and at such a markup as to make it impossible for your company to compete in terms of pricing.
If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth and are not in Tennessee. (Costs for ISDN service in most of BellSouth country are literally so expensive that a fractional T1 line is cheaper.)
If you have attempted to buy ISDN service through BellSouth only to be told it is not available in your area because you are too far from the switching station or given any other reason.
If you are a BellSouth customer, in an area where BellSouth is offering both local and LD services (or, for that matter, local and/or LD and/or data services such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no local dialing providers at all. (It is illegal under the Telecommunications Act for BellSouth to offer LD or data services in any local market it services where competition does not exist for local dialup. THE FCC NEEDS TO BE TOLD IF THIS IS HAPPENING WHERE YOU LIVE.)
If you are in BellSouth territory, BellSouth offers LD and/or data services (such as bellsouth.net or paging) and there are no competitors that are as cheap or cheaper than BellSouth. (Again, they CANNOT sell LD or data services till local phone service competition exists.)
If you have been forced to buy T1 service from BellSouth or been forced to buy package deals from BellSouth for services such as caller ID or call forwarding. (There have been reports that folks who have tried to buy ADSL from BellSouth have been told ADSL cannot be installed nor can ISDN, and they have been pressured to buy a T1 line instead. Bellsouth makes its Big Money on T1 lines...BellSouth also has the habit of pricing optional services such as caller ID and call waiting so high that the mere combination of a regular phone line, CID, and call waiting is literally MORE EXPENSIVE than a $35/month package deal that comes with more services that they want to sell.)
BellSouth needs spanking on basic principle. Slashdot the hell out of the PSCs, the FCC, and the FTC and let them know just what you think of BellSouth's horrid service...best case, BellSouth is forced to clean up its act. Worst case, BellSouth loses its "phone company" license and someone more competent moves in like Unidial...hell, even US Worst would be better (at least you can actually GET AND AFFORD ADSL and/or ISDN).
You cannot "sniff" packets from your neighbor's cable modem. It's true that the data pipe is shared, but it's a better comparison to liken it to switched ethernet.
With cable modems, your download bandwidth isn't much of a problem. Cable networks were designed to spew out a crapload of digital bandwidth to the end users. Upload bandwidth is another story, and servers, obviously, will use a lot more of that bandwidth than people with normal Internet habits.
This is why cable services tend to have conditions that prohibit cable modem subscribers from running "servers."
Since they're both essentially owned by the same company and their tech support is mixed together, swbell shares these features.
I also don't think they bring a Windows laptop just because they like Windows and don't know anything about Linux; it's probably because they're using some proprietary diagnostics software that was written for Windows. Even if the laptop is just a basic working network system (no diagnostic software), it only makes sense for it to be Windows, since the vast majority of their customers will be Windows-based.
Why would this annoy your provider? IP's are IP's. They don't usually care if their customers end up with the same IP address for a long time or are assigned a new one every ten minutes.
Typically IP's are renewed by the OS/DHCP client software continually, so you keep the same IP for the entire time your system is online. When you reboot, however, you're assigned a new one like everyone else. Of course, there's also no reason why the DHCP server can't re-assign you the same IP you had before, but that's something on their end; you can't control that. Linux and Windows (or any other DHCP-capable OS) are pretty much identical in this respect; Linux just keeps its IP addresses longer on average because of its longer uptime. If your provider needs your IP address to change, they'll change it. Your DHCP client *must* check in at regular intervals to renew your IP lease. If your IP is slated to be changed, it will be changed then. Of course there's typically little reason to do this (unless they were renumbering their network).
Generally IP addresses are never changed while your system is online. This would of course result in the dropping of all of your existing network connections. Aside from an IP renumbering party, this has never happened to me on a DHCP network, though I don't have ADSL so I can't say if it's a common occurrence or not...
I wasn't satisfied with a computer generated denial because I stated Linux as my OS of choice, so I complained. Here's the intelligent reply from a human I got:
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 99 15:45:49 -0500
From: adsl@bellsouth.net
To: dattaway@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: BellSouth.net FastAccess ADSL Service Qualification Status (fwd)
Dear dattaway
Thank you for your recent e-mail message.
At this time, our technicians are configuring standard TCP/IP in Windows 95 and NT environments. Although we do not provide
support for UNIX and LINUX , these platforms should support TCP/IP and Ethernet connections.
Therefore, it is possible to use ADSL with these types of systems.
For more information on ADSL access and answers to other questions you may have, please refer to our ADSL home page at the following address:
http://www.bellsouth.net/external/adsl
If you have any additional questions or comments, please e-mail us again.
Adam
adsl@bellsouth.net
1) Call your state's Public Service Commission. Explain the problem to them clearly and politely and how you have tried to resolve the problem.
In most places, the RBOC gets hit with actual fines if they get too many complaints lodged with the PSC.
2) But a single share of stock, then call the "Presidents HotLine" of your local RBOC. Complain that you are a Linux user **AND** a shareholder and that you are being denied reasonable service and you expect to have an action plan from the company on how they will remedy the situation.
The key points to remember are to be a) polite and 2) concise. The folks you'rer dealing with are not computer experts like you... so make sure they get a favourable 2st impression!
_DHMS
Brilliant idea! I'm sure Bellsouth will cower at the feet of PacBell, SWBell, and BellAtlantic customers e-mailing them our outrage...
The only people who should directly contact BellSouth are customers who are affected by this policy. Just calling to complain on principle makes Linux users look like a mob of crying skr1pt k1dd1&z.
The rest of us, however, can make sure this gets good coverage, so BS will want to rectify the problem immediately to avoid a major PR debacle.
It's not a matter of supporting. I'd say it's more of a matter of allowing. They dont want to deal with people who cant connect while running Linux. They want a simple "reinstall the software and reboot" solution for the people crying on the phone, so they say no Linux. Not "supporting" Linux is fine. Linux supports itself. Not "allowing" it wont work unless they use some funky software tunnel for TCP/IP, and that would be pretty pointless.
Not returning phone calls as promised, and thereby getting your employeer unwanted and bad publicity is not a good career move.
- Sam Ruby
A professor (of CS) of mine told me about a similar problem he experienced with his ISP (SNET.net ??) when he tried to get an account for his Macintosh.
It turned out that the company policy discriminated against all but Win95/98 users, not for reasons of idealism or secret agreements with the Evil Empire, but rather...
No technicians were trained to set up anything but Windows PC's, and the ISP didn't want to invest in the needed training (a day or two for each tech, tops).
After climbing all the way up the ladder of leadership at the ISP, my professor finally talked to someone with brains, and got a reasonable answer of: "We'll train a group of techs and give the non-Win customers to them"
-- Submitted for your consideration.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
If you read the bottom of the article, they said they're working on getting Linux support as soon as they can, so I don't think they're trying to snub Linux users (although, how hard can it be to support Linux?).
They've already had their ears scratched off by Linux users, they've already said they're working on getting Linux support up, and now you wanna slashdot them?
Mediaone (now Mediaone Road Runner) never explicitly supported Linux, and according to their current Service Agreement still don't support Linux. There's a FAQ now for how to hook up a cable modem to Linux, and Mediaone, while not supporting Linux, does not explicitly prohibit its use (there are many Linuxers on Mediaone).
The easiest thing to do is get your machine working with Windows, then make it work with Linux. That's what I did with Mediaone, and I never mentioned to the tech that I was planning to use Linux. I haven't used DSL, but it can't be any harder than a cable modem.
Is this disengenuous? I suppose it is a bit, but if you can figure out how Windows makes and maintains the connection, and then duplicate that with Linux, why should they care? (Just make sure your machine's secure :-) I think that a service provider would rather have someone paying for their service rather than go elsewhere because of this kind of nonsense.
Most likely for the same reason I had Linux on my primary machine when I was a cable modem user in San Diego. the ISP (@Home) loved to port scan people, and it's just too darn easy to drop those packets if you know how to configure your system. People running servers on 9x were routinely harrased by the admins, but those of us on Linux didn't have this problem for obvious reasons.
... "I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way."
Most of the people I know at SWB Communications don't linux because of this, and other, simmilar issues. It basically amounts to the ISP wanting to maintain control, which isn't necessarily a "bad thing(tm)", but which I personally find distateful.
Sorry if I misspelled alot of words. See below.
- Samuel Clemens A.K.A. Mark Twain
"I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way." - Mark Twain
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
When you talk to the PUC you may also want to mention the magic words "common carrier".
A telco can impose reasonable technical standards on the physical and electrical characteristics of the devices attached to its network. It cannot impose restrictions on the communications across that network.
There are a few exceptions (e.g., speech which is criminal in all cases such as kiddie porn), but denying service to Linux systems simply because they are Linux is (or should be!) as unacceptable as denying service to Spanish speakers because they don't speak English!
This is where a polite mention that the other baby bells have no problem with Linux -- and neither does this telco, when the users quietly install Linux on their systems after the installer has left -- will go a *long* way. If the telco can't tell when some users have switched to Linux, and other telcos openly allow Linux boxes, then why is the telco making this an issue?!
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Telcos, airlines, freight companies, etc., are "common carriers." I suggest you read an introduction to biz law book to get a feel for just how much that involves... and how useful it is.
ISPs have not been common carriers, although some of the provisions of the CDA are close. The courts have generally held that they get common carrier type protections only to the extent that they ignore what their customers are doing, modulo purely technical issues. E.g., they can monitor your activity to ensure you aren't consuming an inordinate amount of resources. They can monitor your packets to verify that they aren't malformed or otherwise indicative of trying to break other systems (e.g., portscanning). But if they try to restrict your service because you visit the "wrong" sites they open themselves up for legal action based on what they do allow.
(E.g., assume they prevent you, as an adult, from viewing playboy.com, but accidently allow a kid to access a hardcore site. Since they have demonstrated a willingness to restrict legal access to "pornography," then they must have intentionally allowed a kid illegal access to hardcore porn, neh? The penalties are usually far worse in this case than if the ISP simply ignored the content of visited sites.)
Hotel/motels are public accomodations with something close to "common carrier" status (they pretty much have to rent a room to anyone who can pay, space available), and apartments aren't a lot different. They can ban pets, but they can't ban assistance animals (e.g., seeing eye dogs). They generally can't ban children or limit families to particular units. They can reasonably limit the total number of occupants, but they can't refuse to rent to unmarried couples while accepting married couples. In some areas they can't refuse to rent to a gay couple. They can't refuse to rent a unit on the basis of gender, age, ethnic origin, religion, etc.
But unlike common carriers, apartments can reject applications on the basis of concern that they won't be able to pay the rent & possible damages a year down the road. Apartments can restrict the way the units are used. (E.g., no commercial use.) Apartment managers generally reserve the right to enter an apartment at any time, but telcos and shippers have extremely limited rights of this nature.
The bottom line to all of this is that ADSL service is offered by a telco and is almost certainly classified as a "common carrier" service. This means that the company must provide service to *anyone* who can pay and meets minimum technical standards. Since other telcos support Linux, and BellSouth itself apparently can't tell when customers switch to Linux, there is no reasonable technical problem with customers running Linux. Therefore the company must either accept Linux clients... or it must surrender its common carrier status. If it does the latter, it can be named as co-conspirator to every crime committed which involved a Bell South telephone in *any* manner. (E.g., it could be named as a codefendant if the murderer simply used a payphone to call the gun store to verify the hours they were opened, if he subsequently purchased the murder weapon at that store. Already that store is commonly named in civil suits. The cost of defending just one such suit would hire Linux support techs for many years.)
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken