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Fifteen Years of X
From: rws@mit-bold (Robert W. Scheifler)
To: window@athena
Subject: window system X
Date: 19 Jun 1984 0907-EDT (Tuesday)
I've spent the last couple weeks writing a window system for the VS100. I stole a fair amount of code from W, surrounded it with an asynchronous rather than a synchronous interface, and called it X. Overall performance appears to be about twice that of W. The code seems fairly solid at this point, although there are still some deficiencies to be fixed up.
We at LCS have stopped using W, and are now actively building applications on X. Anyone else using W should seriously consider switching. This is not the ultimate window system, but I believe it is a good starting point for experimentation. Right at the moment there is a CLU (and an Argus) interface to X; a C interface is in the works. The three existing applications are a text editor (TED), an Argus I/O interface, and a primitive window manager. There is no documentation yet; anyone crazy enough to volunteer? I may get around to it eventually.
Anyone interested in seeing a demo can drop by NE43-531, although you may want to call 3-1945 first. Anyone who wants the code can come by with a tape. Anyone interested in hacking deficiencies, feel free to get in touch.
The Unix Hater's Handbook is an amusing swipe at Unix culture, but it comes across as a 'real programmers' manifesto. If you dont know what I mean, read the Jargon File's entries on older operating systems. A kind of snobbery about older and less successful OS's pervades old time hacker lore. This is quite amusing, as Unix has become far more than it's contemparies ever hoped to, although at the time Unix compared poorly to the design goals of say Multics.
This elitism extends to X. Of course X is hardware dependent to the extent that it requires some graphical capabilities of the systen it's running on, but it still does a damn good job of running on myriad different platforms. X is a great idea (the whole client-server principle reversed) and quote well implemented.
It's just a damn shame that the open-endeness of it's design goals and implementation are exploited by luddites and f*ckwits as an excuse for a little trolling.
Chris Wareham
No big deal, no long winded diatribe... Just this:
The X Window System has been around since BEFORE Linux desktop environments like GNOME and KDE were created. BEFORE, *NOT* AFTER. Please get that right from now on. Linux has utilized this system since not long after it (Linux) was conceived.
When I see one Linux desktop group or another (people who have been following the Linux desktop press know which one I'm singling out more) getting sole credit for giving Linux users an alternative to the command line interface, I get seriously peeved.
Get your history straight, and please stop crediting the proliferation of Linux graphic systems incorrectly. The X Window System existed long before Linux was even an itch in Linus' crotch. GNOME and KDE run on TOP of X, and before GNOME and KDE there were plenty of other windowing systems that ran on TOP of X. This is nothing new...
http://www.hungry.com/products/Ywindows/
/mill
1) TrueType fonts may be used. You need a (free) program named xfttf (I think, or xfsttf maybe, I've forgotten). It runs as an X font server. 2) The "disadvantages" (except cut-n-paste) of X, according to that text, is, what I think, its advantages. The lack of a built-in window management is good. To allow externa font-servers is good. The only bad with X is the clipboard. I like the mouse-bindings for copy/paste, but I sure do not like to only be able to copy and paste text. I really hope someone will hack a generic clipboard-functionallity. And not only in GTK or Qt! A _generic_ on! But I may be just dreaming...
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
Old code is like a classic car, its simple and elegant. Its often has a perfect non-bloated structure for hot rod conversions. It is simple to understand and parts are easy to drop into other projects. Unlike hot rod conversions, rebuilding old code does not scrape the knuckles, or cost money for parts or licensing fees. When compiled, its often very fast and the eye candy at large gatherings of computer enthusiasts. Many people collect old code, keep it in its pristine state or fix it up. Sometimes it is hard to see in a world of hype and marketing, but will always be in style.
But one thing is for sure: old code will never die. There are always people who swear the best old code is GNU, but just has been reborn!
Well, it all started with Xerox's GUI, which was called Star.
Software dithering is really nice, if it can be gotten to work well, like it does on MacOS. People used to do desktop publishing on 256-color monitors and the like, because the Mac could pallette shift so well. It also allows you to drag windows between monitors of different color depths, etc.
I don't know enough about X to say, but is a rewrite (like Y) necessary, or can X be fixed?
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
While it's true that Linux/BSD has done more to popularize the use of X in PC space than anything else, X clients (if I have the terminology right) have been around on Windows, MacOS, and OS/2 (and maybe even DOS) for a long time. They were fairly widely used until Windows started getting more client-server stuff (like oDBC) built into it.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Well, someone had to post this. I first saw this message in, I think, 1987. I don't know where it originated.
X
DANGEROUS VIRUS
First, a little history. The X window system escaped from Project Athena at MIT where it was being held in isolation. When notified, MIT stated publicly that "MIT assumes no responsibility....". This is a very disturbing statement. It then infiltrated Digital Equipment Corporation, where it has since corrupted the technical judgement of this organization.
After sabotaging Digital Equipment Corporation, a sinister X consortium was created to find a way to use X as part of a plan to dominate and control interactive window systems. X windows is sometimes distributed by this secret consortium free of charge to unsuspecting victims. The destructive cost of X can not even be guessed.
X is truly obese - whether it's mutilating your hard disk or actively infesting your system, you can be sure its up to no good. Innocent users need to be protected from this dangerous virus. Even as you read this, the X source distribution and the executable environment created is being maintained on hundreds of computers - maybe even your own.
Digital Equipment Corporation is already shipping machines that carry this dreaded infestation. It must be destroyed.
This is what happens when software with good intentions goes bad. It victimizes innocent users by distorting their perception of what is and what is not good software. This malignant window system must be destroyed.
Ultimately DEC and MIT must be held accountable for this heinous _software crime_, brought to justice, and made to pay for a _software cleanup_. Until DEC and MIT answer to these charges, they both should be assumed to be protecting dangerous software criminals.
DON'T BE FOOLED!! JUST SAY NO TO X.
X windows. A mistake carried out to perfection. X windows. Dissatisfaction guaranteed. X windows. Don't get frustrated without it. X windows. Even your dog won't like it. X windows. Flakey and built to stay that way. X windows. Complex nonsolutions to simple nonproblems. X windows. Flawed beyond belief. X windows. Form follows malfunction. X windows. Garbage at your fingertips. X windows. Ignorance is our most important reesource. X windows. It could be worse, but it'll take time. X windows. It could happen to you. X windows. Japan's secret weapon. X windows. Let it get in YOUR way. X windows. Live the nightmare. X windows. More than enough rope. X windows. Never had it. Never will. X windows. No hardware is safe. X windows. Power tools for Power Fools. X windows. Power tools for power losers. X windows. Putting new limits on productivity. Simplicity made complex. X windows. The Cutting Edge of Obsolescence. X windows. The art of incompetence. X windows. The defacto substandard. X windows. The first fully modular software disaster. X windows. The joke that kills. X windows. The problem for your problem. X windows. There's got to be a better way. X windows. Warn your friends about it. X windows. You'd better sit down. X windows. You'll envy the dead.
Buzzing noise from your mouse into your speakers? You most likely have one of the unused mixer inputs turned up by default. Fire up xmixer and turn down what you are not using, like mic, aux, etc...
It's true that X has a number of very nice features not found elsewhere, but I think the orignal poster was expressing the feeling that "If I don't need it, and I can't get rid of it, it's bloat". This is a core tenant of the Linux philosophy, but it goes out the 'window' as far as X is concerned.
It would be nice to have a display manager that was designed for single user, non-networked workstations. But, 15 years is a long time.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Good idea, except that NeXT, with it's display postscript, never really got much traction in the desktop publishing industry.
As far as I can tell, Display PostScript (on the Next) does virtually everything X does, and it prints 1:1. Too bad it was never more widely/cheaply licenced.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Kinda like a zipper sound? Usually a "dirty" graphics card. If you get out of X, make sure you unload gpm (so moving your mouse causes no change on your display), and then move your mouse, you should have no extra noises. If you get no zipping noises, it's likely to be the graphics card putting out tons of noise and your audio card not being sufficiently shielded.
The fact that it doesn't happen in Windows is a little puzzling. Perhaps the gain is turned down more in Windows? It could also be the driver. The driver can actually make a difference in the amount of interference you get.
How to fix it? If you think about it, there's quite a lot of RF and EM noise going on inside your computer and there's not a whole lot you can do but turn down the volume. As an extreme solution, you might consider looking up one of those projects to "wrap" your card in a kind of tinfoil shield. It's around the web somewhere. Of course, if you're that serious about clean recording you'll probably want to get a soundcard with digital I/O and a DAT to record on. Good luck.
There were other mainstream platforms that used a client-server window system. To name a few, in chronological order:
I'm sure my list is not complete. I bet Sun's SunView system (which NeWS replaced) was also client-server, for example, and I bet whatever Apollo used prior to X was also client-server (since DomainOS was actually a network operating system).
Also, Mac OS X Server uses Display PostScript right now. Mac OS X uses "Quartz", a display system that has an imaging model affine-equivalent with Display PostScript's but isn't currently implemented in a client-server fashion.
(Though it's been a stated goal that it should be easy to make it client-server, either by third parties or in subsequent releases by Apple. My bet is that Apple will do it themselves in v2.0 or something, since it's something a bunch of their engineers will probably want...)
Well (he said, not trying to sound too much like a curmudgeon), it was a different world back then. Tape was about as good as it got for moving data around.
I remember using the VAXstation 100 (aka VS100) mentioned in the announcement. Of course, I was using it in corporate America, so we didn't have X on it -- it had UIS, which was DEC's GUI prior to the X-based DECwindows.
It's a tribute to these folks that X is still chugging along after all these years...
I guess you could call anything based on more than two standards (DPS and PDF) 'bastardization,' but if it works, that's what matters.
J.
damned vulpine http://sb.drtwister.com/
A couple of years ago, I came up with the idea of "T", both for "text" and coming *before* W (hmm, why did I know about W then???)
:). Essentially, allow the X applications and mouse interface, but translate (and cache) icons to text, and limit positioning to character rather than pixel position.
:)
.12 instead of 1.0, and is grossly out of date). One of the planned toolkits is ncurses, meaning a text interface (of course, equations won't fully display, but it will allow work when only text is available).
:). Currently, most of the developers are tied up with the (purportedly) final release of 1.0.x, and little if any work is occurring on 1.1. But more coders, and particularly documenters, are welcome.
:)
I think it came after using a program whose name I forget that let me have 7 vt100 windows on a mac over a regular dial-up line.
The basic idea was to have a T-window rather than X-window, and to not transmit as much of X as possible, allowing use over slow lines (I was still using a 2400 modem. Come to think of it, every few months I still do
Lacking the time & knolwedge, nothing ever happened with it
While I'm at it, Lyx 1.2 (or 2.0, whatever it ends up) will be toolkit independent (currently it's locked to xforms, and klyx with qt uses
Gratuitious plug: If you're interested in such things, see www.lyx.org, and peek into the "Devlopers only" area (we need a better name
There will not be individual ports to particular tookits, but a toolkit-free core, glue/wrappers/whatevers (not my area).
Mmm, and if anyone wants to take over the mail-merge portion, I'd be happy to pass it on
hawk
I don't know the exact year, but I presume it was by June 86, because I was still at my parents' home.
One of my cousins who worked at HP came by a family gathering with one of their latest & greatest--a "portable" running unix--and apparently X. Plasma display (i think), wall-power, and a 68k processor. At the time, something drawing a space-shuttle by wire frame on your kitchen table was quite impressive . . .
My mom worked as the Wire Chief for a large railroad back in the 80's. Her "office" was filled with those big DEC mainframes with the disk-packs that screwed onto the top (bonus question: anyone know how much those things stored?).
Anyway, some time around '82 or so, she brought me to her office to see their new Xerox computers. Her terminal had a big (19"?) greyscale monitor with a full WIMP system. I didn't know much about GUIs at the time, since I didn't get my first Amiga until '85, but I remember that you had could drag icons around using the big, optical mouse, and that it had a really horrible word processor that was a pain in the butt but WYSIWYG nonetheless.
Does anyone know what kind of system that was? I'm sure it was one of the higher-end models, since said railroad spent a lot of money on computer networking systems.
On a side note, it's amusing that my dear ol' mom who can't program her menued VCR still knows more than I do about network upkeep: "What kind of encoding do your T-1's use these days?". She was the first woman Wire Chief in the history of that railroad. Mom, if you're reading this - you're cool.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Well, depends which way you look at it :
- if you do real work, X-Windows is cool because of its client/server achitecture that allows you to run your program on a distant machine and see the results on your
- if you do everything else (games/web/multimedia) it's a bloated piece of junk : it is very slow and inefficient at handling video cards for fast operations. It was made at a time when powerfull graphic chipset was almost sci-fi, so anything like accelerated 3D, accelerated video, etc... is not there. People try to correct that but it just adds more bloat...
RK05 - 2.5MB, with double density 5MB
RL02 - 5MB, with double density 10MB
Talk about an electron consumer...
The design of the X Window system is a client/server one such that a program can run on one computer and display on another. X provides a library called Xlib that lets a programmer open windows and draw in them. X is responsible for rendering the graphics on the hardware so it contains all the device specific stuff. Widgets sets like GTK extend Xlib by providing high level calls to make user interface objects and, so, they run on top of Xlib.
Berlin is like X in that programs can run on one machine and display on another, but it intends to embed logic for user interface objects into the server to decrease network traffic. It also uses CORBA instead of sockets.