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Scott Hacker Responds
Elwood writes "
Scott Hacker answers some of the questions and concerns that /.ers raised in response to his last column Of Tanks and Batmobiles."
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I'm not saying it's not going to happen, Linux distributions are worlds apart today (just finished a RH6 install) from what they were when I did my first Slackware install (during the 0.9x kernel days... I remember using a stack of 45 AOL flopies to do this install)... thing are improving, but I've never seen an OS as ealy toinstall+config than the BeOS is today. Though I'd still claim that a properly set up Mac is still easier to use (after the install and setup) for you're average person than BeOS, WindowsXX, any Linux Dist, or any other OS I've ever tried (though there aren't many properly set up Mac's in the world)...
This is true for ANY OS... It's equally aplicable to any Linux Dist and BeOS and NT and MacOS and Win 3.1 and Win 3.0 (my HS had a single Win 3.0 box because we had an old IBM scanner that wouldn't work with anything else) and Xenix and BSD 4.0 and OpenBLT and ANY other OS you can name. Sorry to be repetative, but I've seen so many people make this point, and only apply it to their favorite Linux Dist "because it's open source". Nobody is forcing you to upgrade your OS. Hell, my father's office had a Microsoft Xenix (yes Microsoft Xenix, a Unix flavor) box up for 10 years w/ almost daily use, and they still use it for old data... over the 10 years, the only things they 'upgraded' were some new dumb terminals and a new printer. The OS has never been upgraded.
On the other hand, if you're concerned about security... or if the task the computer is doing changes, you may have to upgrade your system. Again, this applies to ANY OS...
Gee, "World Domination" under Linux is begining to sound soooo enticing. I've been using Linux for sometime but I 've gotten tired of recommeding it to friends who then have to read through the insults and bullshit that the coomunity throws at anyone not toeing the party line or asking uncomfortable questions.
Guess what people, there are people out there who are more mature than you, better educated, more intelligent, know more about computers than you and (gasp) DON'T use Linux. How do you think you appear to them?
Unfortunately, too many people in the Linux community are turning into kind of a Serbian Special Police unit out to do a little OS cleansing. Everything sux except Linux, right?
Personally, I (and many others) want to be able to use Linux, Be, Solaris,NeXT, BSD, Warp, QNX and NOT get into a silly fight with a bunch of fifteen year-olds everytime something is said they don't agree with.
The Linux community should take a LONG and SERIOUS look at the effect Team OS/2 had on the public and media's perception of OS/2. Many users and former users now feel Team OS/2's fanatical efforts at advocacy did as much if not more damage to Warp as did Microsoft. Acting like a buch of assholes neither helps the community nor wins us respect. It sounds trite, but it works both ways, if we treat others with respect, they'll treat us respect and pay more attention to what we have to say.
We all know what grief it tends to cause when you have a closed-source operating system with marketshare in the 90th percentile. I think many of us have seen this same potential, given the similar closed-source approach, in this newcomer to the OS show.
It's easy to imagine the "BeOS doomsday scenario"-- Be starts getting popular, then hits it really big, and then things start going wrong. Feature bloat comes in. The excellent API documentation starts slipping. New releases come out in model years. You know the path to the Dark Side.
If BeOS were open-source, we'd know what to do. Fork the code. Let the community keep them honest. But this, as things stand, is not to be an option for us.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Anyone remember the old days, otherwise known as the '80's? I sure don't, but I've heard a lot about how Microsoft was the underdog back then. They were cheered on by many an end user against the behemothy likes of IBM, Lotus, and the other great Titans of old. Well, we know what happened to young Anakin. Is BeOS to become the next Dark Lord?
I don't intend to slight JLG, or any of the other intelligent and zany BeOS developers, whose efforts have proved nothing short of astounding. However, there is at least a basis for some, shall we say, healthy skepticism on the part of our more faithful open-source advocates.
We know Open Source isn't pixie dust, but it is a very good way of keeping a company from doing Microsoft-like things. BeOS has decided to keep their source secret. So far, they're doing this for pretty harmless reasons-- to run a tight ship, not tell the whole world exactly how the BeOS kicks a$$, generally reasonable things like that.
The problem is, at some point, it becomes very easy to do things with closed source that one really shouldn't do. Things like AARD, funky file formats, and talking paperclips come to mind.
I think the biggest fear around here is that, if Be does break critical mass and gets to the point where they can do that-- quite possible, in a post-Microsoft world-- there isn't going to be much we can do about it. Except kick ourselves for cheering Be on in their early days, call it BeO$, and have a Torvalds-wannabe write a new operating system that totally blows it out of the water. (After several years of careful development, of course).
Anyway, if Open Source isn't in place to keep them honest, I'm not sure what else could. Perhaps a cross-platform superset-of-POSIX API, such that the important apps can easily jump ship to Linux. (But then, given the differences between the systems, you either get an API that doesn't take full advantage of the BeOS, or that can't be acceptably implemented on Linux).
I'll definitely check out BeOS someday, but I do sometimes wish there were some tacitly acknowledged mechanism in place to keep Be in check, should such circumstances ever arise. RedHat has the GPL watching over its shoulder; TrollTech has the doomsday clause in the QPL. Be...?
My five cents. (keep the change)
iSKUNK!
> On Redhat you start up GnoRPM
Couldn't name it "install new software" or anything, eh? Let's play a guessing game. I have a tool called VnaBRG. What does it do?
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
This makes me wonder, why not make linux software work like CPAN? One client, one command to download, build, and install, dependencies included. Make it work with rpm, apt, cvsup, you name it. C'mon, it's a complex scripting problem but it sure isn't impossible.
FreeBSD is 90% of the way to doing that too, it just isn't renown for end-user friendliness either.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
My knee jerk reaction here is "My Gosh, IRIX just plain sucks." Now... I guess maybe I am getting a bit more careful about what I want to say.
Uhm, How can I put this. IRIX was my first UNIX, and I have used it regularly for the last six years. At first, I was impressed. Years of seeing the price tags SGI has put on IRIX, it's service contracts (which can be more than the value of the hardware), it's gaping security holes, it's instability compared to something like Solaris, .... countless things that make my stomach turn, has left me sort of pissed off every time I hear "IRIX."
But, yea, truth is, it's an interesting OS, with it's merits, just not something I totally like. My father use to like Hemi-Head Dodge engines, and was a Dodge fan, a definate Underdog, espically after the 70's were in full swing. Countless people are Ford or Chevy fans, and have little "Piss on Dodge" or Ford, or Chevy logos on thier cars and trucks. Yet, a great number of them will gather together to bash foreign cars. And there are groups of younger people now who will bash domestic cars.... Ah, Hmm, this sort of thing goes back much longer than the existance of UNIX, or Windows, or even the Personal Computer, and there are soo many paralles.
If I were a Chevy man, would I refuse to ride in my friends Ford? Would I base my opinon on them because of there car alone? Would I "really" take it all that seriously? No. Come on people, it's the same thing here. Sure, you can bitch about how one OS is better than another, but how many of you REALLY want to cross that line of having an opinion to go over to "being a nut about it."
A computers a tool, and most people just want to get from point A to point B. (Hmm, that "if microsoft made a car" joke is luming in my head now) But, the opinions are like _____, everyone has one, and thier convinced thiers don't stink and everyone elses does.
Personally, I have probably used at least a dozen diffrent OS's more frequently than any Microsoft products. I have opinions on many. I use to like IRIX, but now lost respect for it. I use to like Linux, but am rapidly loosing that too (although, I still think the LSB is going to be it's saving grace, and it's open source nature may be all that saves it in the long run). My OS of choice now days is FreeBSD, because it brings me back to a BSD like OS like IRIX, and it's more secure, and I can actually afford to run it at home. If I had all the money and time in the world, I think I would probably be a "collector" or something, and try lots of diffrent OS's just to try...
What's the end result? Well, it's all a wash. I hate IRIX, yet I still use it because for some things, there is no real choice (some applications are only avaliable for IRIX). I use MS Windows now too... I hadn't even started doing that untill last year, and it's not "as bad" as it's portrayed, just bad, not evil. Microsoft the company, I have no respect for, but, there isn't much I can think of that Microsoft does that SGI hasn't in the past (oh, yea, and now days SGI requires Netscape, _thier version_, for system help! you don't have a choice, and even upgrading it is bearly possable... At least IE was just an icon on the desktop, you still had a choice.).
The perfect OS doesn't exist. Linux is NOT superior in every way, it's hugely lacking in countless ways. Doesn't mean it's worse than Microsoft, or BeOS, or anything. But at times, watching slashdot posts is like watching a dog chase his tail, it's funny, it's pointless, you can get bored of it pretty easily, but for some reason the next time it happens, your still amused for a few minutes. Where has it gotten the community? Heh, better yet, what is the SlashDot community? I personally think it's funny to watch Linux vs. The World at times, but I also think that everyone should be intellegent enought to realize that other OS's exist, and are worth looking at, I just wish there would be some more info about less popular things (Woo, Go FreeBSD, Ra Ra Ra, try it today, install it, it Rocks! I think I'm one of those guys now... :-( ). But, a cool story on something QNX is doing or someones application of it would be nice, a story on Berlin would be nice, a story on the guts of OS X and who is actually planning on using it would be nice, a story on Solaris, the fate of DEC-UNIX, AIX, something other than Microsoft, Linux, BeOS, and the iMac would be nice!
So, yea, I agree, you SHOULD cheer for IRIX, more power to you, I use it myself! But, we all should try to take a step back, keep our eyes and minds open, and see what's out there. If we can, maybe we can find, or build, a better OS, that has more of the good and less of the bad. Take notes on what you do like about each OS, and what you don't... Hmm... Building the "perfect OS" wishlist...
Is it really necessary to be so paranoid? We, the users, still remember the atrocities inflicted on us by Microsoft. Most of us are still suffering those atrocities.
Microsoft won its unique position because we didn't realize that putting one operating system in such a dominant position would give the company making that OS such control over how we use our computers. We know better now. I'd be more than willing to wager that once Microsoft finally falls, we won't see another operating system, API, or document format with that kind of dominance again in our lifetimes.
Should we abhor GOOD software and the companies that make it because "they might become another Microsoft"? Isn't that akin to punishing someone for something they MIGHT do, rather than what they actually have done? Talk about your chilling effect.
The BeOS is the closest thing to the perfect desktop OS going right now. The company is small, and has done everything in their power to make the OS easy to develop and program for - shy of releasing the OS source. Are you seriously saying that because they haven't done this one thing, their agenda is similar to Microsoft's?
My my.. Such a professional response.
Scot Hacker (that IS, in fact, his real name) did a service to the Linux community by not slamming it. Believe it or not, he's actually a pretty big name writer these days. I mean it's not like he has a book.. Oops.. He DOES have a book. (The BeOS Bible) And I do believe he's helping write O'Reily's MP3 book as well. (Could be wrong about that)
Also, why did you feel this urge to mention that Linux is the "superior" OS? I didn't notice Scot getting all down and just out right attacking Linux.. In fact I don't think he even mentioned it with that sort of tone.
I hate it when people turn STUPID things into religous battles. Earth would be a much happier place if outrageous people like you would just give it a rest. EVERYONE can have whatever opinion they want. Because you have one doesn't mean EVERYONE has got to agree with it. This damned ego-trip half the Linux world seems to be on does NOTHING to help the "cause" and only insults the very foundation of Open Source--the freedom of choice and ideas. By elimiating all other choice, you effectivly kill your reason to live. Can't you see that? Are you that blinded? What if the entire world was democratic like the United States? What then? Well, we wouldn't have anything major to fight over, so we would have to pick something. Next best thing to argue about would be religion. Really, it's just another form of government. And like all government, it's basically a set of rules enforced by people of like mind and big egos. Therefore the perfect thing to fight about.
And it's just so darned logical.
This mindless OS arguing is just plain stupid. A complete waste of time and engery. Especially since it matters even less than government or religion.
What's next? Start the Church of Linux? Worship large statues of Linus and everyone is required to have a ring with a little golden Tux on it. Plus you would go to services every monday afternoon (because kernel hacking is required on weekends) at the local computer lab and donate money to help those poor soles who are out of a job because they "want to believe" so much that they code all day and all night while ignoring the rest of society. After all, they have kids to feed. And they are furthering the "cause".
And then declare war on all other relgions.
Over several hundred years of worship the Linux religion starts to gain political power and eventually begins to buy campaigns in the intrest of "freedom" and more "rights" when in reality they are just futhering their ultimate goals of reaching the golden memory address in the sky. And hoping they will have root privledges when they get there.
Get real. Sounds a lot like most "major" religions these days. Got big. Got powerful. Forgot roots.
At least with BeOS everyone is super user..
:-P
I think nearly all Slashdotters would agree that what we really want, more than anything else, is a computing environment everyone can use, that we can cheerfully recommend to our non-computing friends and use ourselves without wincing.
With this in mind, it really seems like a shame that we're so bigoted about our own preferences. Hey, I think Silicon Graphics Irix is the best Unix flavour around, more fun to use and sleeker then any other; but you won't catch me saying that you should avoid other Unix systems, or not use them because you really should be in Irix. No; I encourage you to try Irix if it suits you needs, but I'm not going to tell you you're less than human if you don't pick up a used SGI from somewhere.
And that brings us to Be, which some people have called "The Poor Man's SGI". It seems a pity that, just because some of us want to advance Linux, they feel they should beat on Be to do it. A Linux lover could sit down on a Be console and immediately be productive. Be uses many of the same tools Linux does, after all. The main difference is that the user interface is faster, smoother and more elegant.
Really, isn't it a little silly to hate Be, just because it's not open source? Isn't the real goal quality design and reliability, both of which Be has in spades? If you can recommend to your friends a quality system that won't fail on them like Windows does, shouldn't you?
I think if you have a knee-jerk reaction to Be, you should give the OS a try before being mean-spirited. After all, mean-spirited comments aren't going to make you many friends. And Linux as well as Be need all the friends they can get.
D
----
That was just what I was planning on doing pretty soon! I want to build a network with Be workstations and a linux server.
One question for those out there who can help: Is it easy to run X applications on a linux server using a Be box as an X server? Can I have my Be workstation double as an X terminal for any *nix GUI app I happen to want to run? I sure hope so.
Anyone?
Vidi, Vici, Veni
I said it before, and I'll say it again... UNIX style OS at the core is something I have a great deal of respect for, and a wealth of GNU applications are supported BOTH in open source UNIX and commercial UNIX. When you add to that the huge number of GNU applications that can be easily compiled on a UNIX system using a standard X11R6 structure, there is just SOO MUCH code already out there that I think it's hard for me to say "oh, let's ditch it all, and go to something totally new, and, oh, BTW, it's commercial, and oh, BTW, did we mention that we want all those people who have contributed to GNU to drop everything and port to our OS and windowing system?"
Don't get me wrong, I am not just BeOS bashing. I see what they are trying to do, and I respect that. I just am not excited about it. If you want to know what WOULD excite me, it's replacing standard X with something like Berlin, and replacing the standard macrokernels with something like Hurd, because that keeps it all GPL, will make it possable for software to be more "portable" to Both commercial and free UNIX's, and will allow people to build "optimized" OS's for multimedia, gaming, office apps, servers, cad, etc... AND, the specialized OS's will still be able to probably grab a GNU app that was intended to run on a system optimized for something else, and still run it. Microkernel, making it easier to ditch un-needed overhead, and new windowing system based in GPL code. That's exciting.
I think BeOS is neat, but I think QNX is neat too, and so is MacOS X, and ... but, I am not doing cart-wheels over them, because 1) I can't afford the time to mess with them, 2) I can't afford to buy them all to find out I might not like them, 3) It's taking me away from my "roots." I like the fact that thier are more choices, because competition breeds ideas and motive. But I really think it's about time that SlashDot give some press to something other than just Linux vs. every commercial OS in the world. There are TONS of really cool GNU projects out there. The commercial UNIX's are occasionaly mentioned (and I bet there is a higher ratio of IRIX or Solaris users out there reading that BeOS users, but more BeOS stories), the *BSD's are bearly mentioned, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Hurd or Berlin story on SlashDot at all!
K, flame away ;-)
I haven't found anything in the XFree86 literature that suggests that it runs on Be, and X11.org doesn't say anything about Be either (but then they were supposedly going to have their site overhauled a month ago but haven't updated their page since.)
:-).
And anyway, I don't really want a whole X server package for Be that controls the video hardware itself. Be has great hardware support already, for hardware that it supports anyway
Ideally, I would want some kind of X server "emulator" that allows the user to run a GTK, Qt, or X app on the Linux server and have it display on the Be desktop with all the other windows.
I guess if there isn't such a thing, maybe I should try to write one, but I am not experienced enough and to me that seems like a big undertaking. Anyone know if there is something like that?
Vidi, Vici, Veni
*sigh*
:|
Given the comments I'm reading here, I find myself disagreeing with Scot too. I think he should stop trying to provide a middle-ground, and stop wasting his time. Linux and BeOS are powerful operating systems with their own uses, but if he feels he can tame the beast that is the GPL-fascist, he's dead wrong.
I'm sorry folks, but this fanatical hatred toward an OS and its creator is just downright stupid. Plus, railing against one of its proponents is extremely immature and reflects badly on everyone associated with Linux. Scot Hacker (yes, that is his real name) has been an advocate for BeOS and Linux users working together and peacefully coexisting, and this is the response he gets? Would you rather he were a clueless Microsoft lackey or something?
It's amazing. I see Windows zealots pushing their OS due to its non-technical merits (you can't get fired for recommending MS), and GPL zealots pushing their OS due to its non-technical merits (it's open-source, the way god intended it to be). Both kinds of zealots demonize anything that doesn't fit their own preconceived, limited view of how the industry can and should be. One and the same, despite their appearances.
Come on people! It's one thing to not use an OS due to its closed-source nature for a few real reasons (ie. what if the company goes belly-up, etc), but that's it. It's NOT a moral decision, only one of logic. It is NOT immoral to write code that does not get put into the public domain. Sure, it may not make sense to you. That's fine. It may not make you comfortable with the purchase. That's fine. It may not give you a warm fuzzy feeling at night. That's fine too. But do NOT flame anyone and everyone who disagrees with you. Something being of your opinion does not necessarily make it 100% true.
*sigh* Sorry, just finished a night-long install of LinuxPPC. I think I'll spend another 15 or so minutes to do a quick install of BeOS r4.5 to cool off.