Ask Slashdot: Palmtop Computing And Linux

A couple of folks have submitted questions about Palmtops (not PalmPilots) and getting them to work with Linux. Now I'm not exactly sure how well Linux works with the variety of these units, but I would be interested to know which ones you all think work the best. If a specific model isn't supported under Linux, what would be involved in getting it supported? Click below for the actual questions.

Uart asks: "I am really interested in buying a Psion palmtop, however, I spend almost 90% of my time using Linux and I would want to be able to transfer files to and from the palmtop and desktop computers, as well as syncronizing it with a calendar/address book application. Is this possible under Linux, or is the Psion windows only?"

And Alternate Personality submitted this one: "Being one of them busy college students I carry a Philips Velo1 w/ Windows CE(v. 1.1) machine around with me so i can type up papers or jott down some quick code between classes. But, using Linux I'm at a loss. I have to keep the cradle on my girlfriend's windows box then transfer my paper to disk, because there is no support for such a device under linux, at least as far as i know. Can someone point me in the write direction on how to get this working. Either with existing software OR how to communicate with the device so i can write my own? "

Comments

Librettos are cheap now

[Anonymous Coward]

The Libretto 50CT is now down to $650 in some shops; the 70CT, $850. Hit www.pricescan.com to find them.

libretto

[belial]

I have a libretto, there are a ton of resources.
check : http://www.cerfnet.com/~adorable/libretto.html


I highly recommend it.
installing linux was a snap.

http://www.gawth.com/belial/libretto.html

Re:libretto

[Accipiter]

There's a difference. Librettos do not run Windows CE. A Libretto is an x86 unit, while most CE devices are SH-3 or MIPS. Anything that will run on a standard PC will run on a libretto, Including Linux. That's not the case with a CE device.

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Re:libretto

[greenfly]

The libretto isn't a CE device though, it actually runs linux. I personally love my Libretto 50CT though, the battery runs down too quickly though, and since it doesn't boot up as quickly as a palm device, I ended up getting a palm pilot for phone numbers and such.

Re:libretto

[Simon Brooke]

I use a Libretto 100CT with RedHat 6.0 and KDE, which has a little widget which interfaces with the apmd to do suspend to disk. This means restarting the machine takes about four seconds. To make this work you have to create a 70Mb partition at the end of your hard disk and leave it alone, but that's not a hassle.

Getting Linux onto the machine was not entirely straightforward. There are a couple of good howto pages on the Web:

• Linux on the Libretto 100CT
• RedHat Linux 6 on a Toshiba Libretto 100CT
• Linux for Toshiba PCs

Re:libretto

[Allnighterking]

Just got Linux and X windows up and running on a Libretto 30. Only hassle was VI'ing the XF86Config file so that it would run X windows correctly. Got all the info from a site at http://www.picante.com/~gtaylor/portable/ including a copy of his XF86Config File. He also mentions a way to get multiple (Read 2 and only 2) pcmcia slots up on the libretto. One question I have has anyone any advice on getting a NIC running. I've got a 3com 3CXE589ET but I'm game to buy whatever I can get working. As for everything else it runs like a charm. Next step will be a hard drive upgrade. With only 500megs - 20 megs for the suspend doesn't leave a whole lotta room for data. The nice part is that if you pick up one of these they go for about $250.00 used (only used not making any more) This comp was made for Linux ...... the backslash key doesn't work. GO PENGUIN!!!

What about the Royal DaVinci?

[Lalo Martins]

Seems to be a pretty good piece of hardware, dragonball-powered. Can it talk to a linux box?

Re:What about the Royal DaVinci?

[ToyKeeper]

I've got a daVinci. It's very nice, though not as nice as a PalmIII. It does not yet talk to linux, because Royal keeps refusing to release serial protocol specs. But the development tools work in linux, and there is a nice community feel between its users.

The Palm has more/better software, and infrared; but otherwise the two PDA's are extremely similar.

(I eventually got a PalmIIIx because I outgrew the current limits of the daVinci; but it's still a great PDA!)

EPOC (Psion 5) files can be opened in Linux

[itamar]

There's a utility that converts at least EPOC Word files - search Freshmeat.
--
http://www.wholepop.com/
Whole Pop Magazine Online - Pop Culture

Kudos to Psion for Support

[eGabriel]

Psion has apparently been quite helpful in getting
the kernel to run on their palmtop, and made
their information available to developers. Even if the kernel isn't 100% yet, it will be.

I was looking at palmtops and pdas, and was going to buy one tomorrow. After visiting the Calcaria page, I decided to order one from buy.com tonight.

Re:Kudos to Psion for Support

[Fionn]

> Any info on Linux for Series3 (or is that
> pushing it?)

It is. The Series 3 is running on a NEC V30 chip
which is, basically, an 8088. That means it has
serious limitations regarding adress space and
speed.

Psion did a great development job, though and the
EPOC OS runs very smooth on it.

I recommend the new 3mx to all those who find the
5mx too bulky! Its also only about 1/3 the price
and has a crisper display! And its 4 times as fast
as all previous Series 3 machines.

I have reverse engineered various file formats of
the Series 3 earlier and will do an import/export
library at least for Series 3 Data and Agenda
before the end of this year.

Re:Thats bullshit

[quentinsf]

Well, the one I had certainly used TCP/IP. The standard Microsoft install set up PPP over the serial line.

Psion file transfers

[Jeff Monks]

There is a program available called "p3nfs" that allows you to mount the Psion's drives on your Linux filesystem, and then you can use standard Linux commands (cp, tar, rm, ls, etc) to operate on those files. It doesn't do any of the file-type conversion that PsiWin does, but at least it's good for making periodic backups and transferring files to/from the Psion.

It requires a small OPL program to be running on the S5, so you'll need PsiWin (or minicom under Linux connecting to the Terms app on the Psion) to transfer that file over first.

I'm currently using a somewhat more expensive, but convenient method of transferring: I have a 48M compact flash card for my Psion, and a PCMCIA adapter that allows me to mount it under Linux on my laptop, so I can transfer files that way.

If you have a copy of Windows, it might also be a workable solution to buy VMWare and use it to run a small Windows install for PsiWin...

That said, I love my Psion. It may not be as compact as Pilot or as flashy as a color-screen CE device, but the EPOC software is a pleasure to use. It's a very well-designed machine. I wish it was a little more Linux-friendly, but you can't have everything. Supposedly the new Series 5mx is twice as fast and comes with twice the RAM, and has a brighter screen, so it should be a very nice little machine.

Re:Libretto w/2 Ethernets? WAS:libretto

[Anonymous Cow]

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience in this (though I just bought a Liberetto over the net just 5 min. ago... I've been searching for something like one of these for a long time). So how could I possibly be of help? Well, if you can't get two PCMCIA ethernet cards working, you could try a parallel ethernet adapter (I think they're called "pocket adapters").

Use MediaGX or MATX Super7

[kriston]

Even better, you could get yourself a MediaGX or one of the video/sound-integrated Super7 motherboards. I ran across a baby-AT MediaGX that is the smallest motherboard I've ever seen -- even smaller than MATX boards. For about $100 you get a 233 MHz system with sound and video. Add $15 each for two PCI ethernet cards, 64 megabytes for $40, and one of your spare hard disks (or get a CompUSA rebate special for around $50). Finally, get a case/ps for $40 if you don't already have one.

That would work much better than your $1000+ Libretto or the lousy Multia...plus it won't overheat. Best of all, it's i586.

Kris

Kriston J. Rehberg
http://kriston.net/

Psion 5 port webpage

[msw]

It seems to be well underway.

http://www.calcaria.net/

Re:Psion 5 port webpage

[sgml4kids]

I saw the presentation/demo of the linux port
to the Psion 5 at the Ottawa Linux Symp. It's far from stable but it's working! It was the most memorable part of the show. The presenter even
ran Perl on the Psion (about 2.5 secs to print
"hello world"). They have no X server yet but the fbcons is working well. He said X client should work now (to display on a remote server) but that he's not installed the Xlibs to test it. They even have gcc running *on* the psion.

All in all it's a pretty impressive result for 1 year's worth of labour.

Speaking of the OLS, was anyone other than me as embarrased for the rebel.com and corel guys as I was? In a crowd of geeks and nerds they stood out as a group of out-of-touch losers. It was hard to watch. It angered me that they cut short Alan
Cox's Q&A to bash Microsoft and show their "cool"
promotional video. It was creepy.

Re:Libretto w/2 Ethernets? WAS:libretto

[Raptor CK]

Sorry, dude, but this is not a good idea.
Heat problems. I had a laptop that had great uptime... upwards of months. All I did was suspend to RAM when not in use.
Once I set it up to run constantly, without ever suspending, I got about 2 weeks before is barfed on me. Sound started messing up, and then it just froze. Totally. And this is a very reliable system.

I'd recommend something like a DEC Multia, if you can smack it around, or some other small desktop more capable than a 486/25.

Good luck, however you try it.
Christopher Kalos

Libretto w/2 Ethernets? WAS:libretto

[Specter]

I'm getting a cable modem next week (f/x: fingers crossed) and I want to put a libretto in as my firewall/proxy/gateway/whatever. I know I'll need to use the 100 or 110 in order to physically support two PCMCIA ethernet cards. Does anyone have any experience using two pcmcia ethernet cards in this kind of setup w/Linux?

Re:Libretto w/2 Ethernets? WAS:libretto

[Specter]

Actually my two main reasons for wanting to use something with a small footprint were power consumption (since it's going to be on pretty much all the time) and closet space (because I'm going to want to tuck it out of the way and basically forget about it.) I'm assuming that the libretto is going to draw less power than an old 486/586...so while we're on the subject, anyone have any experience in this area?

Re:Libretto w/2 Ethernets? WAS:libretto

[ph43drus]

I have a cable modem, and PCI nics are cheap. A decent PC won't notice any lag whatsoever from having an internal network (I know mine doesn't, and I run all sorts of crap on here [read: apache, ssh, ftpd, telnetd, you get the idea..], along with my dad playing around on the 'net from his computer, doing anything from surfing to streaming video and audio). I actually think having my computer sit as the gateway is much nicer than if I had something much smaller running it. I'm currently taking a class over at the local community college for highschool, and it is really nice to be able to write my papers here at home and just download and print them at school without fscking around with floppy disks (I don't have a decent printer.. I'm going to need to drop the cash for one eventually). The server capabilities of Linux is invaluable to me, and personally why I suggest just using your personal computer (unless you dual boot, or don't have a second computer, then it isn't as important). The only real good reason for having a gateway is for network security, and the Libretto is probably no better with security than a Linux desktop. Just my $0.02.

Have fun though. Keep up on your security and enjoy the bandwidth.

Re:Linux on the Psion 5...

[Brent Nordquist]

Yes! Glad you pointed to NCP, I'd forgotten that one.

EPOC files (Word, Spreadsheet, Data) are in a proprietary, closed, non-published format. Symbian requires you to use their "engines" (shared library interfaces, essentially) for all access to the files. Now, this wouldn't be the worst strategy... but the engine code is proprietary, and they've only ported it to Windows and EPOC! So you're stuck; Windows is the only real option.

We hear rumblings of Linux SDKs, etc. being explored, but who knows how long it may be before it happens.

(The data app. can also import from CSV files; that's something, I guess, but not as efficient as direct access.)
--

Psion 5 and 5mx + Linux

[Brent Nordquist]

Someone else already pointed out p3nfs that makes the Psion an NFS server, across the serial link to your Linux box. I use it for backups, and it works great. You can also move text and HTML files to the Psion, which can read them with no conversion.

Conversion of the Psion file formats, and synchronization to off-palmtop applications, is the sticky point. Psion supports this only through PsiWin under Windows; the list of apps it works with is impressive, but it's only Windows (not even Mac).

The point that people often miss is that, while the PalmPilot etc. are really designed to extend your PC's data (a PDA), the Psion etc. are really computers in their own right. I do almost everything right on the Psion itself (you can even develop OPL software right on it); so as long as I have a Linux backup solution, I don't really need anything else.

But if conversion/synchronization is a concern, check out psiconv (you can find it on freshmeat) which is an effort to reverse-engineer the file formats to convert them to open formats. Psion Word to HTML has been done already.

I am very happy with my Psion 5. The 5mx is worth checking out; same great palmtop, but 2x faster, 2x the memory (16MB), and has a Java JVM built in. Actually, ANY device (Ericsson, etc.) that runs Symbian's EPOC is worth checking out! It's a very impressive, tight, responsive, multi-threaded operating system.
--

A good use for VMware

[TecraMan]

Yet another good use for VMware... Not only can I use MS Office (about the only MS package I have some respect for), but I can synchronise my Jornada without any problems.

Re:TCP/IP & PPP

[ph43drus]

Oh yeah. Windows has horrible track records with compliance to standards... The manpage for nmap has some interesting information as far as that is concerned.

(no real need to mention specifics concerning "embrace and extend")

Linux and PDAs

[Dr. Zymotic]

I recall hearing something about there being a Linux port to the Newton MP120/130. As I recall, it would boot, but that's about all. More info, anyone?

Re:Troubles with CE

[Osty]

Talking to Everex for that information will get you nowhere. Microsoft defines how Windows CE machines talk to a desktop. All Everex can give you is hardware specs.

LUnix instead of Linux

[Felinoid]

LUnix might work better on a PDA than Linux.
However at current date only Linux has been ported to any PDAs.

Porting LUnix should be a trival effort sence the operating system is so small.
[it has to be it's made to run on the Commodore 64]

There is a small system dependent libary than needs to be replaced. Do that and recompile with a compatable c compiler [GCC if it compiles binarys for the target PDA] and go :)

Re:I can see it now.

[PenguinX]

LOL -- Hell yes it will be.

Newton

[PenguinX]

I think that if Apple ever revived the Newton (which is a rumor that has began again in the Mac circles) we would see a very Linux worthy PDA. If my memory serves me correctly, the last newton was a worthy pda running at 167mhz ... I have a dumb linux box as a terminal that is slower than that.

Nokia 9110

[scrutty]

I would dearly love to run linux on my Phone, which has to be my favourite piece of existant hardware. Its cerainly based around some kind of x86, so not entirely unfeasable but pretty unlikely I suspect.

On a related note does anyone know of any software to get the 9110 to connect and share data with a linux box. The software supplied is for windows boxes and I don't have any of those. Of course I can do PPP and FTP stuff but that is sub optimal as it works through the phone and gets pretty expensive through a wireless 9600 cell modem.

Re:Nokia 9110

[ianmacd]

I also have a Nokia Communicator 9110 and use VMware to run the supplied suite of tools. It works well, but is no substitute for running Linux.

Porting Linux shouldn't be too much work, since the 9110 houses an AMD 486 processor. 4 Mb of memory is used to run Geoworks, while the other 4 Mb is user space, which is subdivided between program and data space. That theoretically gives you 2 Mb in which to boot and run Linux and 2 Mb in which to store it.

If you have a memory card, you could store Linux there and save the data space for your own files.

I have no idea if anyone's working on a port for the 9110, but it would be a very welcome thing to have.

Re:Linux on the Psion 5...

[Uart]

(Wow, my question actually got posted!)

Yes, i heard about that, but its far from where I would need it to be, at the moment anyway.

Since asking slashdot, I discovered a neet little gem, its not quite exacly, what i was looking for, but it is close, you can find it here, It allows you to transfer files between systems. Which would at least allow me to get some work done, but heres a question, what formats do Psion's Spreadsheet/Wordprocessor/everything else use? are they standard formats?

Everex and linuxce.org

[ripcrd]

Just checked out linuxce.org and they have already contacted Everex and gotten some support. Check it out.

Interested in the Royal DaVinci

[ripcrd]

This is what I am interested in since the DaVinci just moved to 2MB of RAM and is a lot more cost effective. Check out www.davinciworld.com for now. They seem to be supporting users wishing to develop on this platform. Looks like a community sharing cool apps and hacks.

What other PDAs use the Dragonball? the Pilot?
Rip

DaVinci on Linux?

[ripcrd]

Check out the site http://www.uclinux.org/ they ported linux to a palmpilot that has basically the same processor.

linuxce.org

[beppu]

There are some people who want to liberate WinCE devices. Check them out at: LinuxCE.org

Re:linuxce.org

[WillAdams]

Hmm, interesting.

Hopefully this will progress well, I want a replacement for my NCR-3125 (running PenPoint) and my Newton. MP-100. I've considered the Vadem Clio/Sharp Tri-Pad, but the software isn't adequate to my desire (and no, neither is the Newton, nor was the NCR, though the NCR was close when I had Windows for Pen and FutureWave's SmartSketch).

Linux and Gill, GYVE or Killustrator would be perfect for my needs (especially with a port of TeX thrown in)

William

--
Lettering Art in Modern Use

Linux on the Psion 5...

[Trumpet]

Well, maybe in a totally unrelated but still midly similar way, I remember checking out some information at http://www.calcaria.net/ about getting Linux to run on the Psion 5's. Sounds like the perfect solution to me - why develop sync utilities when you can just run your favorite Linux scheduling software on your palmtop? :) [Unless that software doesn't exist yet...] (And of course I know that the Linux7k kernel is far from being totally complete, and I'm sure most of your favorite console apps haven't been ported yet, but hey - That's why you hack away at code, right?)

--Chris

Re:Linux on the Psion 5...

[mjgumbley]

My NCP programs are purely experimental - you'd be much better looking at Philip Proudman's work, at Philip Proudman's site, or, if you have a Series 5, Fritz Elfert's work.

Fritz' code doesn't allow transfers to/from a Series 3, yet. It takes the NCP/RFSV protocols and interfaces them to NFS, so you don't need p2nfs running on the Psion.

it does use tcp/ip

[iserlohn]

Try this link
http://home.utah-inter.net/clalor/lin ux_ce.html
All you wanted to know getting those wince thingymijigs working under 'nix.

Re:TCP/IP & PPP

[Natty]

Anoymous Coward worte:

You can get a Windows CE machine (And Windows too for that matter) to talk to a Linux box, just set up a ppp connection which reads the string "CLIENT/SERVER" from the device, and writes the string "SERVER", then start ppp.

I write in response:

shudder I spent 2 days trying to get a Windows NT 3.51 box and my Linux box talking to each other over a null modem cable. The same cable and same Linux box were fine connecting with 2 other operating system(Macos and Linux). I knew about the client/server/bull but I still never got it working. They just wouldn't talk right. That experience showed me what is truely horrible about Windows. The Windows NT box wanted me to specify whether it was the "server" or the "client". I tried to tell it that PPP is a peer to peer protocal and that there is no "server" or "client", but it wouldn't listen (: It's these strange spins on using the standard protocals that makes it hard or impsosible to make a Windows box work with other systems, but work automagicaly with its own breed.

So try this, but be prepared for a major headache. Well that was my rant for today, I hope you people enjoyed it.

TCP/IP & Windows DUN

[jwang]

I think CE devices use TCP/IP to communicate. The exact data I don't know. The TCP/IP argument is because:

• CE Services on Windows requires that you install Dial-up Networking, the Dial-up Adapter, and Direct Cable Connection
• I haven't been able to use the Dial-up Adapter while my CE device is connected - Windows complains about the device already being in use
• The CE device gets assigned its own IP when connected (try running winipcfg with the device connected)

My 0.02...

Re:Someone needs to port linux to the Vr214X

[routecoder]

What MIPS mailing list had info about booting Linux on a MIPS-PDA ? I'm part of the linuxCE project, working on getting Linux up on teh Philips Nino (PR31700-based, which is based on the MIPS R3000) There is a bootloader now for the Vr2xxx, I believe, but no working bootloader for the Nino. I suggest you check out the linuxce project's mailing lists archives (see www.linuxce.org and go to 'developers'). Also, there is the PocketBSD project, which has a bootloader for Everex Freestyle and NEC MobileGear devices. I don't know the URL for that project right off -- it's based in Japan. You might also be interested in checking out Warner's MIPS-based PDA Info Center. Cheers, Routecoder (bscholl+@cmu.edu)

Windows CE devices...

[ZoeSch]

Windows CE devices do indeed use PPP to connect to their desktop counterparts. I ran a network trace (Using a Wandell&Goltermann Domino WAN protocol analyzer) and found that the only problem is that they encrypt the username/pasword sequence... I don't know if it will accept clear text since I haven't done anything yet with that trace (except studying it)... a posibility (after going to a page linked below) could be to modify an app like xisp or gppp to talk to the CE device... whatcha think boys and girls?

Did you uncheck "Connect Directly to Desktop?"

[ZoeSch]

Check that on the communications properties... I used the method you stated except that I use a dial-up connection with manual dial... I can connect my Phillips nino 210 or my Cassiopeia A-20 to my Linux notebook and transfer files... we'll see... reverse engineering Activesync shouldn't be so hard provided someone has the time to do it... what I want now is a way to upload my contacts to GnoPIM

Windows CE Connection Info

[VeniDormi]

On my PalmPC 2.0 device:

If I run Start/Programs/Communication/ActiveSync , select Serial @ 115k and my desktop's name, then run pppd /dev/ttyS0 115200 192.168.55.1:192.168.55.2 asyncmap 0 lock crtscts modem connect "chat -v CLIENT CLIENTSERVER" on my linux box, I get a message indicating that the P/PC has connected to my desktop and is searching for the "connection agent" and then another message indicating (surprise) that it was unsuccessful.

I checked the debug logs from pppd, and the only protocol the P/PC asks for is TCP/IP, so ActiveSync must be based on that. I ran a simple TCP portscanner against the P/PC and found something on port 990, but I can't tell what it is - probably some proprietary ActiveSync server.

It would be nice if someone could reverse-engineer the ActiveSync protocol, but I'm not holding my breath. In the mean time, I use an ftp server for WinCE I got from this website. The MIPS executable is here and the SH3 executable is here.

Hope this helps someone...