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Loki Announces Loki Hack 1999 Contest

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the this-is-interesting dept.

Ethelred Unraed writes "Loki Entertainment Software has announced a contest where an elite group of hackers (in C++, that is) will be chosen to improve their port of Civilization: Call to Power. The winner will get a dual-processor Linux box as a prize. Take a look at their info page for more. " Thats a pretty crazy contest idea. They ought to give the winner a job.

25 of 126 comments (clear)

  1. What kind of Dual Processor computer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but 'dual processor' could mean a whole range of things.

    I have an old dual Pentium 90 MHz (not Pro, not II, not III, and not Xeon, just plain old Pentium) sitting in the closet right now. It's still running (348 days uptime on an _early_ smp_linux test kernel), it's just in the closet because the fans are NOISY. While it's a lot faster under Linux than the 'other' OS, it's not what I would call 'screaming' these days (although it was three years ago).

    So, what _kind_ of dual processor box is it?

    Dual Pentium - Pass.

    Dual Celeron - These are cool, but cheap enough I don't need to enter a contest for them. They make GREAT low end servers though.

    Dual PII - Now it gets interesting.

    Dual P3 - Even more interesting. What's the storage like though?

    Dual Xeon - Can I get one of the ones Seimens benchmarked Linux on? Oops, that was a quad Xeon.

    Dual K7/Athlon - Drool drool! But where did they get it?

    Dual Alpha - Gimme! Gimme!

    So, are there any specifics on just what the prize is? Their page is currently either slow or slashdotted, so I haven't been able to find the specifics myself.

    -----
    And my Boss keeps asking "Where's the incentive in open source?". Sheesh.

    1. Re:What kind of Dual Processor computer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3

      hmmm... is it possible to make a dual 486? that might speed things up at the low end how about a group of 5 386 chips? what would a computer with a dual pentium setup cost?

      At college we had a Sequent Symmetry that started with 8 386-16MHz processors and slowly migrated up to either 16 or 32 (I forget how many) 486-33MHz processors. It was the fastest machine on campus for _years_. Pity it had to be decomissioned because we couldn't get any more hard drives for it. Needless to say, it was _not_ cheap, but at least it did _not_ run anything from Redmond.

      Even wierder, I think there used to be an architecture out there called a 'Hypercube' that was anywhere up to 256 '286 processors in parallel. That's right, 2^8 Intel 80286 CPU's. If I remember correctly, though, it had _no_ '287's and so it's floating point performance was still pretty sucky. Even so, I wish I could get my hands on one of these today. I'd put it right next to my NeXT.

      In short, just about _any_ processor, no matter how weak, can be used in a powerful parallel system _if_ you are prepared to create an appropriate architecture and OS to support that many CPU's. The machine you come up with _could_ be relatively inexpensive to manufacture, but the development costs would enormous.

      Stuff like SMP Linux and parallel computing standardizations have made parallel computers MUCH simpler and cheaper in recent history. But that's only if you use those standards etc., and I don't think you're going to find any older/cheaper architectures that follow the standards. Besides, the Dual Celeron board from Abit (the BP6) is _really_cool_ and _really_cheap_.

      If you _really_ want to play with a cheap parallel system using older technology, don't think 'parallel computer'. Think 'cluster computer'. Think Beowulf. You won't be disappointed (and you won't have to take all those old processors out of their current cases).

      Now, if Loki is offering something like a Beowulf cluster in return for 48 hours worth of hacking on their game, I might enter. Realistically, though, I would probably be more interested in their contest more if they offered the winner a job instead of the computer (at least a job better than the one I currently have).

      It might be interesting to enter their contest for just the chance to look at their current game code, which I beleive is not open source. But that brings up an entirely different subject. Since the contestants have to be able to look at their current closed source, they will probably reqire the contestants to sign all sorts of 'Non-Disclosure - Non-Compete' forms. And trust me, NO computer or contest (or job for that matter) is worth all that.

      Perhaps I should put the previous paragraph up as a post on its own.

  2. Loki by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    OK, this might be off topic, but I just want to say that whatever bad opinions you have about this contest, Loki is doing something extremely important to the open source movement. Yes, they make money off of it, but bringing quality games to the OS is as important as anything else in getting it accepted (on the desktop). A desktop user needs three things: office suite, internet and games. On the office and internet side, one decent application is enough. On the games side we need many, many different options. Im sure many of you know this, but I just wanna say it again so more people will be conscious of it. And to the people who say "we dont need no friggin stupid desktop users!" just remember that they (and with them, mass production) is the ONLY way to get hardware support. And yes, we all want HW support. TN

  3. All because of Activision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3

    I was at the Denver LUG where Scott (Loki's president) unfficially announed this on Tuesday evening. Apparantly, Activision owns the copyright and they are hesitant to embrace the open-source model. They are afraid of thier competition getting a hold of thier clever "trade secret" hacks. Scott talked Activision into this contest as a way to prove, even on a small scale, that open source works. Hopefully, with any luck, some great hacks will come out of this and Activision will see the err of thie perevious ways.

  4. Re:Loki Hack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3

    When's the last time you got to see the source code for a commercial game -- and not several years after the fact.

    it's not like you are releasing the source, but here are a few that come to mind.

    Abuse - crack.com
    Wolf/Doom/Quake - id
    Decent - parallax

    Abuse was released about a year after it came out (faster than the linux port of Civ?)

    When's the last time you got to modify a game, change the rules the way you like, add something you think is missing? Then get your changes posted for the rest of the world to play around with.

    What game today doesn't let you do this? Unreal, quake, etc. Even Abuse allowed you to add new characters and hacks the day it came out by planning for that kind of thing and putting in an interpreter.

    The only reason for this contest is because Civ didn't plan for the mod comunity. The only way to add new stuff is to give people the source. While it's nice to study, a good game shouldn't have to give out the source code. That's like giving people the source to a JVM and telling them to "hack stuff in" rather than make the JVM complete in the first place.

  5. Loki Hack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5

    I'd like to dispel any confusion about what we're trying to accomplish with Loki Hack. Seems like some people have assumed that we're looking for free work on the port, bug fixes, or the like. Wrong.

    The idea is this. When's the last time you got to see the source code for a commercial game -- and not several years after the fact. When's the last time you got to modify a game, change the rules the way you like, add something you think is missing? Then get your changes posted for the rest of the world to play around with. And all of this supported by the developer? And we throw in some prizes too.

    This is the closest we can get to open source with our products. The world won't see the source, but the contestants will. And all the hacks, mods, changes will be posted in binary form, freely downloadable for the world to see. Know anyone who has seen the Windows code for this game?

    Of course, we're going to help people along. Loki developers will be present to answer questions during the hack. We'll also have an intro session to get people familiar with the code.

    For those unaware, it's a very big deal for a commercial game company to let you look at their source for a current product. Activision is going out on a limb with this. We want to show them what the open source community can accomplish.

    Scott Draeker
    President
    Loki Entertainment Software

  6. how is it slow let me count the ways by copito · · Score: 2

    When I make a move or change a view I want see the update immediately. I don't want to wait 10 seconds as the hard drive thrashes, the sound skips and the screen freezes. Go into space view in the later part of the game and tell me it's not slow.

    As for bugs:
    preferences don't save,
    paratrooper moves can crash the game hard (e.g. paratrooping into an occupied square or city),

    there's a bug list available from
    http://209.223.115.151/support/
    which is remarkably slow at the moment.

    Yes the bug list is a good thing, and no the bugs aren't a good thing. Not when I'm paying money.

    Compare CTP 1.1 to say the latest patch of StarCraft. StarCraft is more playable under Wine than CTP running natively. The two games have similar levels of graphical complexity with CTP having more AI complexity, but also turns to do the processing in as opposed to real time.

    As for revolutionarieness. No, a good game does not have to be revolutionary. But a good game is either revolutionary, glitzy, or solid. Great games can be all three. CTP is none of the above.

    --

    --
    "L'IT c'est moi!"
    1. Re:how is it slow let me count the ways by Nathaniel · · Score: 2
      When I make a move or change a view I want see the update immediately. I don't want to wait 10 seconds as the hard drive thrashes, the sound skips and the screen freezes.

      I had this problem too, particularly when my system was already IO contrained on the hard drive because I was playing MP3s and ripping/encoding from a CD, all with IDE devices.

      I solved this problem by creating a large (160 megs) ramdisk and copying the graphics/pictures directory to the ramdisk.

      Once I'd done that, I could play MP3, rip/encode, and pan around CivCTP quickly. It made a huge difference in game play.

  7. Don't Do It by copito · · Score: 5

    CTP is a slow game with serious bugs that is barely playable on a Celeron 300 w/ 64 MB. All this for a 2D game that would have been revolutionary in the late 80's. Yes I paid my $40 bucks. Yes I wanted to support a cool company and Linux. And yes, I'm bitter.

    Loki isn't all bad. Their developers field actual bug reports and there has been one patch set to cure some of the more serious problems. They are a new place and they might port or create a good game someday. Apparently a lot of the problems with CTP exist in the Windows version, so they might have been just dealt a bad hand.

    That being said, the new contest they have created is a joke. Imagine if someone said to you, "you're a damn good programmer. I want you to spend some time doing some programming for us. No
    we won't pay you, but you might get a decent computer out of it and we get to keep your code and sell it."

    Considering this, what are your incentives:

    You really need that 'puter:
    A good C++ programmer can make enough money to buy the computer in what, a couple of days?

    Pure altruism:
    Perhaps, but you would be probably increase your cosmic oneness more by contributing to an open source project.

    Ego:
    Your kung fu is the best. You want everybody to know it. Well good luck, but here's a hint. If you're that good you should either be getting pay or serious recognition out of the deal, or possibly both.

    A job at Loki:
    Ok, you want to work at Loki, this might be a good way to strut your stuff, but they are getting far more out of the deal than you. Companies typically pay thousands to track down and hire a qualified candidate for a job, without immediate benefit to themselves.

    You really like CTP and want to see how it works:
    I don't agree, but curiousity is a valid reason for anything in life.

    You really like CTP but the bugs annoy the crap out of you:
    There are probably lots of people that fit in this category. Probably enough to give Loki their computer's worth. Go a head, give the Man a hand. He'll make it worth your while.

    --

    --
    "L'IT c'est moi!"
    1. Re:Don't Do It by slashdot-terminal · · Score: 4

      To address some of these complaints:
      1. The game is slow
      1.1. The code might be inefficient
      1.1.1. The contest may address this by weeding out the bad portions of the code and allowing the better parts to come out and the best to survive
      1.1.2. The code is not optimized correctly for the processor.
      1.1.2.1. Most code for linux systems is set for 486 target architectures
      1.1.2.1.1. The exception to this are things like pgcc/some of the egcs flags, Mandrake, etc however I would still advocate software to be compatable with the 486 style I don't want to be forced into an upgrade because "The world moves on..."
      1.2. The current config for the hardware is in conflict
      1.2.1. Many programs have the potential to conflict with particular configs.
      1.2.1.1. some corel apps have conflicted with recent or experimental designs
      1.2.2. Overclocking of the processor
      1.2.2.1. Processor intensive operations are very able to vause exceptions that may be getting caught in some kind of exception manager that is taking up something like 30% of the Celeron hence causing slowdown.
      2. Needing a computer
      2.1. Avaibility
      2.1.1. It seems that most individuals cannot buy an SMP enabled machine from their local computer store (compusa, radioshack, bobslocalcomputeremporium)
      2.2. To code?
      2.2.1. Not unless you code something like your own version of a CTP similar app with 500Mb or source and tons of time intersive operations
      2.2.2. Need to program a device driver that uses hardware exclusively found on a new computer
      2.2.2.1. Usually open docs take care of this
      2.3. To play CTP or other like games on
      2.3.1. Kind of defeats the purpose and wastes the cause of efficiency.
      3. Altruism
      3.1. The company is hard up
      3.1.1. Perhaps because they produce crappy games they need help right where they need it (in their wallet)
      3.2. Their programmers are all stupid
      3.2.1. They are testing the waters to find new people or to shame their current ones
      3.2.1.1. In that case it would be most beneficial to do a good job and a nice career can be yours
      3.2.2. Programs that need to have the likes of Einstein to work on them are just plain wrong and perhaps hurt human intellecutal ability to accomplish
      3.3. You like giving to the first person who asks
      3.3.1. A typical tactic to anyone who has ever done anything that involves free or reduced services of any form
      3.3.1.1. It is really bad form to refuse a person who initially had your help when someone new comes along
      3.3.1.2. You establish report with people that you serve with and make the person you helped grateful
      4. A Job at the host company
      4.1. Sucking up
      4.1.1. Nice especially if you want to seem selfless (ok not totally they are giving out a computer to the winner)
      4.1.2. People remember the person who gives them nice comments without seeming to be giving insincere flattery. This would be a nice time to show them that you are selfless enough and dedicated to their vision to do what they want and need
      4.2. Show level of competence
      4.2.1. Competent people have an increasing need of physical evidence to prove who they are and what they do a nice directed project.
      4.2.2. It's the type of competence that is directed to the job
      5. Curiousity
      5.1. Efficiency (see above)
      5.1.1. Answer the burning question (why is this so slow?). Is there a better way to do this?
      5.2. Obtaining a good strategy to win
      5.2.1. Cheat codes are usually embedded in games and are not all totally obvious at first glance
      5.2.1.1. These codes override the things that make you loose and conversely make you win.
      5.2.2. If there is a function create_big_scary_monster_with_sharp_teeth(player)
      {
      some code here...
      ...
      }
      perhaps you can defeate his logic and then win that way. This is usually how we win games of this sort look for patterns and then reduce those complex patterns.
      6. You hate bugs
      6.1. Don't play the game
      6.1.1. I have programs that have been on my computer that have for various reasons failed me
      6.1.1.1. I usually take this as a personal problem and then just use something else.

      --
      Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
  8. Improvements I'd like to see done by drig · · Score: 3

    I'm not really a strong C++ coder, so I thought I'd throw out some ideas I'd like to see be put into the game.

    If you take over an enemy's capital, you should gain all of his/her cities. But, the cities should have an enourmous happiness cost, spawning revolutions in many of them for an unprepared attacker. This also makes bloodlust games less tedious to win.

    Perl/Python/Java/etc. scripting. I know this one is a big task for 48 hours, but it'd be nice. Maybe someone could mention it to someone when they're there. The current scripting language is lacking (particularly in documentation).

    New units: Land-based troop carriers. This would make it easier to carry large amounts of troops. Differing levels, as well. Different movement, whether they can move over mountains, etc. Also, some could be invisible (like the spy and cleric), to hide the units within.

    At the end of the science, going for "future cultural 23" is kinda boring and annoying that it comes up. Add a science that converts science into gold, like Capitalization turns production into gold.

    Like "Fortify" and "Sleep", add a command to tellt he unit to wait out the turn. For instance, a settler wants to settle on a river. But, he only needs one move to gain the ground. The settler can't settle until the next move. "Sleep" will cause him to be forgotten the next turn. Make a command like "at ease" or something to mean "chill until the next turn".

    I think that's all I can think of for now.

    --
    Citizens Against Plate Tectonics
  9. Re:CTP morally wrong? by scrytch · · Score: 2

    Activision might have spirited away the Civ name, but the overall quality of AC over CTP is Sid's very sweet revenge. AC has very nice big icons for selecting units, CTP has this miniscule MFC-based interface at the very bottom of the screen. Diplomacy in AC actually consists of intelligent complete sentences, the chinese-menu quality of it is far less evident. Every single advance has a highly relevant and cogent quotation behind it. The effects of projects actually make sense. And just *listen* to AC, the music and sound effects are eerie, very sci-fi. This is what I call "production value", when a game feels like it all fits together. CTP on the other hand looks and feels slapped together, the interface especially so.

    I think Sid sleeps well at night now. But the person to credit is really Brian Reynolds, who is responsible for most of Civ II and AC.

    --
    I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
  10. A few thoughts... by Skeezix · · Score: 3
    While this contest is cool in the sense that a better game will be produced, and those who enjoy hacking will get a shot at some cool work and the chance to win something, this should not be viewed as a charity or embracing Open Source on the part of Loki or Activision. The source code doesn't get out since the contest is held in a secure location. All they have to do is give away a computer, and they get 1440 man-hours of hacking by the elite. Pretty darn good deal for them if you ask me.

    --Jamin Philip Gray
    jamin@DoLinux.org

    --
    Celebrate the finer things in life
  11. There are probably legal problems with this... by Gavin+Scott · · Score: 3

    IANAL, but it seems to me...

    That this is probably illegal as it amounts to hiring people to do work without paying them. It depends on the state they are in, etc. In California you'd never get away with this :-)

    If they don't actually pay at least minimum wage for the duration of the "contest", they probably can't claim ownership of what the contestants produce, especially if they plan to release them as part of a commercial product.

    In many states it's hard to give up your rights to this kind of thing, so even if they have the "contestants" sign away their lives on some contract, there may be laws that override any such contract provisions, and provide fertile ground for any number of lawsuits.

    G.

  12. Re:That's Brilliant! by Wanker · · Score: 2

    This has been tried before-- and sometimes it works. Star Control II scoured the internet (such as it was in those days) for talented MOD programmers. As a result they had some of the most creative music of their time.

    In more recent history, Total Annihilation recruited scores of people from the Internet to help design maps. Some of them are quite good.

    It's not exactly Open Source, but it's still in the spirit of large-scale collaborative development-- and it often pays off.

  13. Thank You Very Much by ChronosX · · Score: 3

    I'm going to give up my privileges to moderate the comments for this article to say a public "Thank You" to Scott for taking the time to respond.

    I think he presented the pertinent points quite well, so I won't go over them again. Suffice to say that I believe people are being way to critical of Loki on this issue.

    Yes, the situation isn't a perfect mesh with the Open Source ideals. They aren't releasing the code to the world so that everyone can have a crack at improving the game or possibly learn from examples. This is far better than nothing. It looks like it would be a lot of fun too.

    It's just a shame that I don't know C++ well enough to have a chance to be one of the thirty. Such is life.

    ... Back to my original point. Thanks again Scott. You've really improved the image of Loki in my mind.

  14. An even better contest! by chandoni · · Score: 5
    Freeciv Hack 2000

    Make your contribution to Civilization! No, not all civilization, but rather you have the chance to take part in our Freeciv Hack 2000 contest to improve Freeciv. Recent improvements include more races and nations, city build lists, and the addition of more CivII rules (paratroopers, more terrain specials). Other improvements such as GUILE scripting, improved AI, hex maps, and stacked combat are being developed. (Read our mailing list archives for more info.)

    What is Freeciv Hack 2000? It's a special contest in cooperation with an international term of developers, where you can show off your Linux (and BSD, commercial Unix, BeOS, Java, even Windows) hacking skills to everybody...and win prizes to boot! First prize is the ego gratification of getting your name in the PEOPLE file.

    Here's how it works: download the source from ftp.freeciv.org and get to hacking. Everybody with a C compiler will be chosen. If you're chosen, you can show up to our hackfest, which will conveniently be held on your own computer!

    Any and all changes and improvements worthy of improving Freeciv (and, by extension, civilization as a whole) will be included in the CVS snapshots and new public releases starting with 1.8.2. So what are you waiting on? Download the source and get hacking!

    JMC

  15. Gift Horse for Sale, needs dental work... by redwolf · · Score: 4

    "Flame On!"
    I can't believe people are complaining that Loki's prize
    isn't big enough or doesn't cost enough to 'make it worth my time.'

    Here's my advice: If the prize offered isn't big enough... DON'T ENTER!
    But please, stop the complaining.

    "Flame Off!"
    Thanks to Johny Storm and the Fantastic 4.

  16. Slashdotted server? by Alphix · · Score: 4

    Im not sure why or if it's just slow.....anyway...here's the text on the page if thats all you want (and the server keeps crawling).

    Loki Hack 1999

    Make your contribution to Civilization! No, not all civilization, but rather you have the chance to take part in our Loki Hack 1999 contest to improve our Linux port of Civilization: Call to Power. (Then again, by making Civilization better, you can make civilization better, too. You get the idea.)

    What is Loki Hack 1999? It's a special contest in cooperation with Activision, Inc., the Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts, and the Atlanta Linux Showcase, where you can show off your Linux hacking skills to everybody...and win prizes to boot! First prize is a dual-processor screamer of a machine, running Linux, of course.

    Here's how it works: apply to enter below and tell us about yourself. Thirty participants will be selected based on experience and involvement in Linux development--strong C++ skills are a must--and chosen participants will be notified via e-mail. Then, if you're chosen, you can show up to our invitation-only hackfest, which will run for 48 hours in a secure setting, on October 11-13, 1999 at the Atlanta Linux Showcase at the Cobb Galleria Centre.

    Any and all changes and improvements worthy of improving Civilization: Call to Power (and, by extension, civilization as a whole) will be included in an upcoming special-edition update for the game. The best of the best will receive that beast of a computer. So what are you waiting on? Fill out the form below and get hacking!

  17. That's Brilliant! by Analogue+Kid · · Score: 3

    I can't believe it. I think Loki just found the most cost effective mode of software development imaginable! They get hundreds of improvements on their port for the cost of a (nice) computer! Why didn't anyone think of this before. What a way to harness a bunch of good egos into doing their bidding...

    --
    I'm a gnu world man.
  18. Re:Doh!! by Coward,+Anonymous · · Score: 2

    You should in general avoid any programming book which includes the phrase "in 21 days" in the title. The Association of C and C++ Users provides a book review section, it should be able to help you find a good C++ book.

  19. Call me crazy... by konstant · · Score: 3

    But doesn't it seem as if Loki will be getting a lot more out of this than the cost of a "dual processor Linux box"?

    I have a contest idea! If you are an 31337 h4x0r, I will allow you to write key modules of my software for me, which I will then sell at enormous profit to me! The winner will receive this attractive T-shirt!

    I also have some fine swampland real estate to discuss with you...

    -konstant

    --
    -konstant
    Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
  20. Strong C++ skills by TimoT · · Score: 3

    You don't develop those in a hurry. It took me a few years, but now I know the language inside and out and don't need the reference-books. Of course, now I'm moving to better languages (the dynamic ones)... I wish I had moved to them earlier, since C++ has a lot of problems in dynamic applications. I still have to use C++ for work though.

    Strong C++ skills also include strong programming skills and those take a few years as well. The only thing that can make a good programmer is _experience_. Now looking back a few years, when I thought that I was a good programmer, the code looks like crap, a few years from now the code I write now will look like crap. There's always room for improvement.

    I think the point where you really are good with language is when you've written something bigger with it (including design, my bigger project was around 20 KLOC). When the total lines of code you've written in that language is around 100000 then you should pretty much know it. I've written way more than that in C++. My point is that you can't become a good C++ programmer in 21 days, or even 21 weeks. Maybe you learn enough to work for a company in desperate need for new programmers, but not well enough to write well-designed C++.

    It's not a bad start, but don't expect to get good without a lot of practice. If you already know how to program, then you may learn C++ a lot faster. I made the mistake of learning C++ as the first serious language and it probably slowed my learning down a lot. Had I learned a simpler language well-enough first, I would probably have learned C++ faster. The size of the language and the amount of idioms (small coding tricks, the C++ way of doing things) in C++ is overwhelming.

    To seriously learn C++ I suggest that you learn OOA/D (good code requires good analysis of the problem and good design !) from, for instance, Rumbaugh's or Jakobson's books (I don't like Booch). For the small C++ tricks there's Coplien's book on C++ idioms (can't remember the exact name). The book "Design Patterns: Elements of reusable object-oriented software" is one of the classics of OOP. Scott Myers' "Effectice C++" and "More Effective C++" may be of some use to more advanced C++ programmers. You learn most of these things with enough practice, but why learn through trial-and-error (like I did), when the books can give you a head start and spare you of the worst.

  21. 48 hours? by slag187 · · Score: 4

    How many lines of code does CTP have? I really don't know, but this is a significant piece of work here. The contestants will have 48 hours to compete in this thing.

    My point being, it's going to take them most of the time just to read through the code to get a good grasp of how the system works. It will be the first time they see the header files, etc so they'll have to figure out what functions and classes do what and what they need to be passed, etc.

    For this to be impressive, they would have to get the code and then have at least a week . . . then we would have some real bug fixes and imporvements. As is, this is just a publicity stunt.

  22. interesting idea by swonkdog · · Score: 2

    i like the idea of sponsoring a hack contest for civilization. this is a very cool idea that will no doubt get some very, very cool improvments to the game. the only thing that disappoints me is that the contest is only open to thirty participants. but, then again, you have to put them somewhere and i guess that the atlanta linux expo is as good a place as any. i particularly like the idea of locking the participants away for a 48hour hacking run. will jolt be supplied?