Slashdot Mirror
Norwegian Company Claims to have Patented e-Commerce
Bård Dahlmo writes "According to Norwegian e-zine digi.no, there is a patent on Internet shopping. It's in Norwegian, but includes a reference to IBM's patent database. " Of course, I'm totally unable to read Norwegian, so this could be the reporter's shopping list - but the notion of patenting /shopping/ is going to give me an ulcer.
the little Kristiansand-based company Bellboy secured itself in 1993 a patent on all internet commerce in Norway and Europe, according to digi.no. Now the company is going to ask for royalties to all who sell wares and services over the Internet and by phone.
Rolf Wilhelmsen applies for his patent in 1993, but the process has been so slow that only in 1999 can he start using his patent to claim payment from such service shops as Amadeus (plane reservation system) and Norwegian shops like Rimi, Onlineclub and Filmweb. Bellboy's patent is unique in that it only describes a business model, not a technical principle.
The patent has been a well-kept secret till now; now we will make it known. Many people are shocked to hear what this is. You will [??? hear from us?] if you try to do e-commerce and avoid the Bellboy patent, says Wilhelmsen to digi.no.
Norwegian patent # 17 98 88 describes a system where the user uses a general-purpose networking system to access a shopping system, select items, order directly, and get confirmation. Which means that that patent covers most commerce systems over the phone, internet and mobile net systems.
Looking at the patent, one of the objects on page 3 is "to maintain the connection between the user and the central processing device after the customer's order has been confirmed". Isn't that *not* how ordering something over the web actually works? (Doesn't the server drop the connection after it's finished with a page?)
Looking further - I guess I just don't see what's new here. The next page describes your basic voice-response system as an example of something covered by the patent. How long have voice-response systems been around?
They then describe what appears to be a computer interface to a voice response
The claims (p7) also seem to be related to a voice-response system rather than the web - and again there's the bit about connecting to some "central data processing device" in claim 1.
Claim 2 appears to claim a patent on selecting a language.
I'm getting kinda sick of looking at the lores TIFFs after about page 8, but I still don't see where this applies to most e-commerce.
-- Rick
...who finds it amusing that you can electronically order from IBM a copy of the patent claiming invention of the idea of electronic ordering?
Laura
This silly patent is here
EP738446B1: METHOD AND SYSTEM FOR ORDERING SERVICES
I suppose you're right ultimately, but don't underestimate the ingenuity of scammers.
Just for example, what if the first target they pick to sue is a shill that does everything possible to lose the case in court, won't accept co-defendants, and then refuses to appeal. What would happen then, is the patent upheld? Would that make it more difficult to overturn in future, or is each individual fee claim entitled to it's own trial?
Time after time we see the problems that arise when significant amounts of money and time are required to defend your rights against unreasonable claims or false charges. If it's cheaper to pay up, businesses will, so more scams will appear. It makes the law a club in the hands of the rich, powerful, or greedy. It's odd people talk about socializing medicine all the time and fail to mention law. I'm not necessarily advocating any such thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if law insurance became as common as medical insurance.
Really? I thought the European patent laws were stricter than US Patent laws in respect to Prior Art:
''To be novel, an invention must not form part of the prior art on the date the European patent application is filed or its priority date, if priority is claimed to a corresponding application. The prior art is deemed to comprise everything made available to the public by means of a written or oral description or by use or in any other way that will enable the public to determine what the invention is''
the european patent convention also says that ''Methods of doing business are grouped with methods of performing mental acts and rules for playing games as being unpatentable''
But IANAL, of course. Guess it takes on of those to explain how on earth the Norwegian patent office can grant a patent that clearly violates European conventions, and have that one apply to other European countries...
Here's my go at it:
:-)
:-).
4 6B1
Oh and I'm a Dane so I don't accept any claims either
Norwegian has patent on netcommerce - sits on a potencial goldmine.
A man from Kristiansand filed for patent on the forms used in todays netshops back in 1993.
By Einar Ryvarden
First published: 28.09.99 15:28 Last modification: 28.09.99 17:13
Oslo (Sep 28th 99) - The small company Bellboy based in Kristiansand, Norway secured patent on Internet commerce in Norway and Europe in 1993. Now the company is going to demand license fees from everybody who sells goods and services on the Internet and over the phone.
The small compny Bellboy International has a patent on Internet-commerce that allows it to demand license fees from all Internet shops in Europe and possibly even the USA till 2013. With help from lawyers they will demand agreements and fees from the entire Internet trade.
Rolf Wilhelmsen has "shot the Golden Bird": Dec 17th 1993 he filed for patent on a method to do realtime commerce on IT networks or phonesystems. Around that time the WWW and the Mosaic Client were introduced.
But the unbelievable slow filing procedure means, that Bellboy just now here in 1999 can start requiring license fees from everybody who has launched telephone or internet shopping systems. Among these are the international airline ticket booking system Amadeus og Norwegian shops like Rimi, Onlineclub and Filmweb. The Bellboy patent siffers from other patents in that it only describes a method to do things not a technical principle.
- Our patent has been a well-kept secret but now we are going to make it well-known. Most people will be chocked when they understand what this is. You will have to be very clever if you want to avoid this patent and do commerce on the net at the same time says Wilhelmsen to digi.no.
Øystein Jørgensen, CEO in Nordlandsdata has already received a demand from Bellboy and is very sceptical about the patent. Nordlandsdata has made Filmweb, the system who lets you book movie tickets on the net (in Norway, ed
- I think Bellboy has patented a very general and wellknown idea. I take my hat off to Bellboy but the Patent Office has handled this patent application very badly. Now a lot of companies have to use a lot of energy, time and money on lawyers, Jørgensen states to digi.no
Wilhelmsen admits that he has had a lot of luck, but that it is possible to patent a method that later affects a lot of people later. Wilhelmsen, who started the Internet Service www.bilguiden.no compares his patent with the telephone or the cheese knife.
He foresees that a lot of people will question Bellboys plans to ask license fees now, long after the internet gained it's success.
- We may be percieved like vultures but we had a good idea and filed for the patent in 1993. I know ow important patents are, because I filed for my first patent 25 years ago, he states.
He wont even give a hint on how high the license fees will be. But alone an agreement with Amadeus will yield astronomical Revenues if Bellboys gets a cent from every European air traveler from now to 2013.
To be able to collect the license fees from the internet shops in Norway and the rest of Europe, Bellboy secured NKR 6,000,000 (around USD 771,000) last X-Mas.
- Now we are looking for even more money and alliances with real investors, Wilhelmsen states, but won't mention any names. digi.no's sources indicate that Jan Haudemann Andersen, a well-known figure in the Norwegian finance world, is one of those possible investors that Bellboy has contacted
The company (Bellboy) needs investments to finance the legal battles that corp. in the US, Canada and Japan will raise to fight the patent. Bellboy will also reestablish its foundation a phonebooking system for hotel reservations which the company mad e together with Telenor Link (former Telenor Marktech. The purpose for the system is to sell reservation services to several companies.
Bellboys Patent
Norwegian Patent no 17 98 88 describes a system that allows a user accessabillity to view the delivery situation then order and succedent get a order confirmation in realtime.
Thus the patent covers most booking and trade systems on phonelines
and the internet. You can read information on the patent in this patent data base : http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=EP007384
So Harald Ohrn "invented" selling things over the interet? He'll go down in history as "The Man Who Invented Selling Things Over The Internet". Without this great man, nobody would have ever been able to sell anything on EBay, buy a book from Amazon.com, shop for a trip at Expedia.com, or look at Carpoint. Without Harold, the internet would just be a plaything for scientists and students. Harold is truly the "Father of the Internet"! Good job Harold! If not for you, who would have thought of selling things using the Internet? Harold, you are truly an innovator, and
are far ahead of your time. Harold, you're the man.
I'm a Swede, not a Norwegian, so don't sue me if I miss out on something.
Norwegian has patent for net commerce - sits on a potential gold mine
Kristiansand-based man filed a patent on ordering concepts used in web stores today in 1993.
Oslo (28.09.99) - The small Kristiansand-company Bellboy filed a patent application in 1993 covering Internet-commerce in Norway and Europe, according to the news service digi.no. Now the company are asking fees from everyone selling goods or services over the internet or ordinary telephone lines.
The small norwegian company Bellboy International are sitting on a patent on Internet commerce that makes it possible for them to ask for fees from all internet stores in Europe - and perhaps the US - until the year 2013. With the help of lawyers the company is now going to demand formal contracts and money from the whole internet sector.
Rolf Wilhelmsen has shot the golden bird. Decmeber 17th 1999 he applied for a patent on a method to conduct real-time lookup and ordering over IT-networks or telephone systems. At the same time, the world wide web and the Mosaic client were introduced.
But due to the incredibly slow patent application process Bellboy couldn't start demanding license fees from everyone who has launched telephony- or internet ordering systems -such as the international airfare booking system Amadeus, norwegian stores such as Rimi, Onlineclub or Filmweb - until now in 1999. The Bellboy patent differs from normal patents in that it describes only a method, and not any technical principles.
- Our patent has been a closely kept secret, now we are going to publicize it. Most people are quite shocked when they realize what we have. You have to be pretty smart(?) if your are going to do to internet commerce and not fall under our patent, Wilhelmsen says to digi.no.
OK, thats about half of it. I have some real work I have to do now...
In the US anyway there is such a thing as patent fraud which includes naughty activity like not disclosing all you know about the prior art to the patent office during the patent application. Perhaps Bellboy could be brought up on the European equivalent.
I don't think the Internet icon is appropriate for this. Due to some recent lawsuits and postings here we need to give these stories their due and come up with a new icon, I suggest a steaming pile of doggie doo. Damn lawyers