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Norwegian Company Claims to have Patented e-Commerce
Bård Dahlmo writes "According to Norwegian e-zine digi.no, there is a patent on Internet shopping. It's in Norwegian, but includes a reference to IBM's patent database. " Of course, I'm totally unable to read Norwegian, so this could be the reporter's shopping list - but the notion of patenting /shopping/ is going to give me an ulcer.
(Thanks for the quick translation)
I don't understand how they can sneak buying stuff over the phone in there. As long as I have been watching TV there have been ads for buying K-Tel records and Ronco Turnip Twadlers (quick, copyright 'As Seen on TV', it's right up there with you've got mail). Not that I think it would be a bad thing if there were no more Time-Life Sounds of the 60s commercials, but buying stuff over the phone seems to have been going on for a long time.
Also, they admit to entrapping people!!! 'Our patent has been a closely kept secret...' They deliberately waited until there were alls sorts of potential defendants using e-commerce before revealing their patent.
Dana
the little Kristiansand-based company Bellboy secured itself in 1993 a patent on all internet commerce in Norway and Europe, according to digi.no. Now the company is going to ask for royalties to all who sell wares and services over the Internet and by phone.
Rolf Wilhelmsen applies for his patent in 1993, but the process has been so slow that only in 1999 can he start using his patent to claim payment from such service shops as Amadeus (plane reservation system) and Norwegian shops like Rimi, Onlineclub and Filmweb. Bellboy's patent is unique in that it only describes a business model, not a technical principle.
The patent has been a well-kept secret till now; now we will make it known. Many people are shocked to hear what this is. You will [??? hear from us?] if you try to do e-commerce and avoid the Bellboy patent, says Wilhelmsen to digi.no.
Norwegian patent # 17 98 88 describes a system where the user uses a general-purpose networking system to access a shopping system, select items, order directly, and get confirmation. Which means that that patent covers most commerce systems over the phone, internet and mobile net systems.
Looking at the patent, one of the objects on page 3 is "to maintain the connection between the user and the central processing device after the customer's order has been confirmed". Isn't that *not* how ordering something over the web actually works? (Doesn't the server drop the connection after it's finished with a page?)
Looking further - I guess I just don't see what's new here. The next page describes your basic voice-response system as an example of something covered by the patent. How long have voice-response systems been around?
They then describe what appears to be a computer interface to a voice response
The claims (p7) also seem to be related to a voice-response system rather than the web - and again there's the bit about connecting to some "central data processing device" in claim 1.
Claim 2 appears to claim a patent on selecting a language.
I'm getting kinda sick of looking at the lores TIFFs after about page 8, but I still don't see where this applies to most e-commerce.
-- Rick
...who finds it amusing that you can electronically order from IBM a copy of the patent claiming invention of the idea of electronic ordering?
Laura
Isn't it amazing that someone with an "internet commerce" patent doesn't have an internet website?
You missed something here. "Prior art" as a legal term is an American invention, because patents in America are granted on a first to invent basis. In Europe, patents are granted on a first to file basis, and this guy was obviously the first asshole.
If it has been granted, I believe it pretty much stands...
-
A law firm in Columbia has patented the idea of having many stores in a single large building, also known as a "Mall." Law suits are to be filed tomorrow against all offending "mall" owners.
How dumb.
--
you must amputate to email me
i read all replies to my comments
This silly patent is here
EP738446B1: METHOD AND SYSTEM FOR ORDERING SERVICES
USPTO Documentation about Trilateral cooperation between JPO/EPO & USPTO
Cooperation between the three major patent offices is increasing every day. I can't count the number of times i've seen JPO Officials walking around the datacenter in the past few years...
-stax
I'd say they couldn't defend it if it came down to it. I'm no law expert, but I know you can't simply patent a commonly used term and/or buisness practice, and have it hold up.
How can silly patents like these be prevented? Now that's a tough one. If you don't have patents, you get copycats by the thousands, and many, MANY crappy ripoffs. But, with patents, you get this..
Ideas on how to FIX this problem?
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Wilhelmsen says that he has had great luck, but that it is possible to patent an invention that later becomes very important to many people.Wilhelmsen, who was one of the people who started the internet service www.bilguiden.no, wants to compare his patent with the phone or the cheese slicer
He thinks that many people asks themselves why Bellboy wishes to have a royalty now, many years after the Internet became a success.
"We can probably been seen upon as a wolf, but we had a good idea and applied for a patent in 1993. I know how important patents can be, since I applied for my first 25 years ago", says the man from Kristiansand.
He doesn't want to allude to the size of the royalty he'll ask for. But an agreement with Amadeus, only, could generate astronomous income, when Bellboy gets a few øre [1/100th of a Norwegian Krona] in usage fee from each European flight passenger up until 2013.
[untranslatable passage, my norwegian is too bad]
Now we are looking for more money and alliances with real investors, says Wilhelmsen, but we don't want to give any concrete names. Based on what digi.no has heard, one of those Bellboy have contacted with is the finance celeb Jan Haudemann Andersen.
The company also need money to the fight against those who challenge the patent in the USA, Canada and Japan. Bellboy is also re-establishing the basis for their patent, a phone order system for hotel rooms the company made together with Telenor Link (at that time Telenor Marktech). the new service is supposed to sell reservation services to [untranslatable] actors.
I suppose you're right ultimately, but don't underestimate the ingenuity of scammers.
Just for example, what if the first target they pick to sue is a shill that does everything possible to lose the case in court, won't accept co-defendants, and then refuses to appeal. What would happen then, is the patent upheld? Would that make it more difficult to overturn in future, or is each individual fee claim entitled to it's own trial?
Time after time we see the problems that arise when significant amounts of money and time are required to defend your rights against unreasonable claims or false charges. If it's cheaper to pay up, businesses will, so more scams will appear. It makes the law a club in the hands of the rich, powerful, or greedy. It's odd people talk about socializing medicine all the time and fail to mention law. I'm not necessarily advocating any such thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if law insurance became as common as medical insurance.
Really? I thought the European patent laws were stricter than US Patent laws in respect to Prior Art:
''To be novel, an invention must not form part of the prior art on the date the European patent application is filed or its priority date, if priority is claimed to a corresponding application. The prior art is deemed to comprise everything made available to the public by means of a written or oral description or by use or in any other way that will enable the public to determine what the invention is''
the european patent convention also says that ''Methods of doing business are grouped with methods of performing mental acts and rules for playing games as being unpatentable''
But IANAL, of course. Guess it takes on of those to explain how on earth the Norwegian patent office can grant a patent that clearly violates European conventions, and have that one apply to other European countries...
Now, if this Norwegian company loses its claim that its patent covers e-commerce, the patent is unenforceable, but still exists as a disclosure to the public from 1993, or whenever it was filed (I think that European patents are public from the date of filing, unlike U.S. patents.). If it is very close to describing e-commerce, then this patent may be used to show why a whole new crop of e-commerce patents may be obvious in light of this old (1993) patent.
Internet developers should be collecting references to patents like these that may be used to block the issuance or enforcement of future obvious patents. I am thinking of using the domain www.ineffectualproperty.com to start a jump point for this sort of thing. Would anyone be interested in this?
Okay. First, here's the link to the patent:
:-)
http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/d etails?pn=EP00738446B1
Other than the title being a bit obscure, I don't see how this patent could possibly cover internet ordering at all, other than possibly using the net as a transmission device. The patent is fairly specific, being mainly directed towards hotel booking and medical services. They refer to "user terminals" which could connotate a computer system, but from the language is obviously meant to be a separate device, possibly a TV with a box on it.
It describes a lot of methodology, saying that the voice communication goes from here to there, this signal gets returned, we attach to this central processing unit (server), and so forth.
To me, looks like they're trying to build a system that will let you put a box on your tv and order travel tickets, book hotels, and even get emergency medical services. The wording is somewhat broad, but the gist of the document seems to not even consider this to be any form of internet ordering.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Here's my go at it:
:-)
:-).
4 6B1
Oh and I'm a Dane so I don't accept any claims either
Norwegian has patent on netcommerce - sits on a potencial goldmine.
A man from Kristiansand filed for patent on the forms used in todays netshops back in 1993.
By Einar Ryvarden
First published: 28.09.99 15:28 Last modification: 28.09.99 17:13
Oslo (Sep 28th 99) - The small company Bellboy based in Kristiansand, Norway secured patent on Internet commerce in Norway and Europe in 1993. Now the company is going to demand license fees from everybody who sells goods and services on the Internet and over the phone.
The small compny Bellboy International has a patent on Internet-commerce that allows it to demand license fees from all Internet shops in Europe and possibly even the USA till 2013. With help from lawyers they will demand agreements and fees from the entire Internet trade.
Rolf Wilhelmsen has "shot the Golden Bird": Dec 17th 1993 he filed for patent on a method to do realtime commerce on IT networks or phonesystems. Around that time the WWW and the Mosaic Client were introduced.
But the unbelievable slow filing procedure means, that Bellboy just now here in 1999 can start requiring license fees from everybody who has launched telephone or internet shopping systems. Among these are the international airline ticket booking system Amadeus og Norwegian shops like Rimi, Onlineclub and Filmweb. The Bellboy patent siffers from other patents in that it only describes a method to do things not a technical principle.
- Our patent has been a well-kept secret but now we are going to make it well-known. Most people will be chocked when they understand what this is. You will have to be very clever if you want to avoid this patent and do commerce on the net at the same time says Wilhelmsen to digi.no.
Øystein Jørgensen, CEO in Nordlandsdata has already received a demand from Bellboy and is very sceptical about the patent. Nordlandsdata has made Filmweb, the system who lets you book movie tickets on the net (in Norway, ed
- I think Bellboy has patented a very general and wellknown idea. I take my hat off to Bellboy but the Patent Office has handled this patent application very badly. Now a lot of companies have to use a lot of energy, time and money on lawyers, Jørgensen states to digi.no
Wilhelmsen admits that he has had a lot of luck, but that it is possible to patent a method that later affects a lot of people later. Wilhelmsen, who started the Internet Service www.bilguiden.no compares his patent with the telephone or the cheese knife.
He foresees that a lot of people will question Bellboys plans to ask license fees now, long after the internet gained it's success.
- We may be percieved like vultures but we had a good idea and filed for the patent in 1993. I know ow important patents are, because I filed for my first patent 25 years ago, he states.
He wont even give a hint on how high the license fees will be. But alone an agreement with Amadeus will yield astronomical Revenues if Bellboys gets a cent from every European air traveler from now to 2013.
To be able to collect the license fees from the internet shops in Norway and the rest of Europe, Bellboy secured NKR 6,000,000 (around USD 771,000) last X-Mas.
- Now we are looking for even more money and alliances with real investors, Wilhelmsen states, but won't mention any names. digi.no's sources indicate that Jan Haudemann Andersen, a well-known figure in the Norwegian finance world, is one of those possible investors that Bellboy has contacted
The company (Bellboy) needs investments to finance the legal battles that corp. in the US, Canada and Japan will raise to fight the patent. Bellboy will also reestablish its foundation a phonebooking system for hotel reservations which the company mad e together with Telenor Link (former Telenor Marktech. The purpose for the system is to sell reservation services to several companies.
Bellboys Patent
Norwegian Patent no 17 98 88 describes a system that allows a user accessabillity to view the delivery situation then order and succedent get a order confirmation in realtime.
Thus the patent covers most booking and trade systems on phonelines
and the internet. You can read information on the patent in this patent data base : http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=EP007384
1. It doesn't make much sense to punish someone for filing a patent, if the patent office has already reviewed and accepted that application.
2. Patents cover specific claims. I don't know how many times I have seen slashdot editors railing against a patent and only discuss the abstract. If someone comes up with a specific method of making aluminum then someone will go off the handle and decry that making aluminum has been patented.
3. I think it is stupid to patent things relating to computers if the same thing is already being done offline.
So Harald Ohrn "invented" selling things over the interet? He'll go down in history as "The Man Who Invented Selling Things Over The Internet". Without this great man, nobody would have ever been able to sell anything on EBay, buy a book from Amazon.com, shop for a trip at Expedia.com, or look at Carpoint. Without Harold, the internet would just be a plaything for scientists and students. Harold is truly the "Father of the Internet"! Good job Harold! If not for you, who would have thought of selling things using the Internet? Harold, you are truly an innovator, and
are far ahead of your time. Harold, you're the man.
I managed to find a Norwegian-to-English translator, and the translated page can be found here.
In the style made famous by Babelfish, the translated text is remarkably unreadable, but maybe it'll help some of those non-Norweigen-reading people (like myself) get a look at what the article says.
Good luck translating the translation.
-Fedallah
We are already starting to see penalties for filing frivilous lawsuits (thank god), so there is precedent for this type of penalty. It's high time we extend this to patents.
some points from the article: (quick and dirty translation)
The small company Bellboy did in 1993 secure a patent on internet trade in Norway and Europe. It will now demand payment from everyone who sells goods and services over internet and telephone.
Rolf Willhelmsen applied for patent on decemper 17th 1993 on a method to make realtime access and trade over network or telephone. About at the same time www and mosaic were launced.
The application process means that only now in 1999 can he start to demand licence-fee for among others the international airline ticketing system Amadeus.
[My comment: I would have thought that Amadeus was older, which surely would make this patent void.]
The rest of the article was mainly reactions.
In a sidebar:
Norwegian patent nr 17 98 88 describes a system where the user over a public net can see the true delivery sityation, then directly order, and at the end get a confirmation in realtime.
[My comment: Perhaps this is a step away from the previous situation where algorithms could not get patent in Norway.]
Hans
I'm a Swede, not a Norwegian, so don't sue me if I miss out on something.
Norwegian has patent for net commerce - sits on a potential gold mine
Kristiansand-based man filed a patent on ordering concepts used in web stores today in 1993.
Oslo (28.09.99) - The small Kristiansand-company Bellboy filed a patent application in 1993 covering Internet-commerce in Norway and Europe, according to the news service digi.no. Now the company are asking fees from everyone selling goods or services over the internet or ordinary telephone lines.
The small norwegian company Bellboy International are sitting on a patent on Internet commerce that makes it possible for them to ask for fees from all internet stores in Europe - and perhaps the US - until the year 2013. With the help of lawyers the company is now going to demand formal contracts and money from the whole internet sector.
Rolf Wilhelmsen has shot the golden bird. Decmeber 17th 1999 he applied for a patent on a method to conduct real-time lookup and ordering over IT-networks or telephone systems. At the same time, the world wide web and the Mosaic client were introduced.
But due to the incredibly slow patent application process Bellboy couldn't start demanding license fees from everyone who has launched telephony- or internet ordering systems -such as the international airfare booking system Amadeus, norwegian stores such as Rimi, Onlineclub or Filmweb - until now in 1999. The Bellboy patent differs from normal patents in that it describes only a method, and not any technical principles.
- Our patent has been a closely kept secret, now we are going to publicize it. Most people are quite shocked when they realize what we have. You have to be pretty smart(?) if your are going to do to internet commerce and not fall under our patent, Wilhelmsen says to digi.no.
OK, thats about half of it. I have some real work I have to do now...
Imagine if this gets into a courtroom somewhere in Europe. Here is a little company, with maybe 12 million euros worth of funding to hire some lawyers. They decide to tackle some small e-something site first, but Amadeus (AirFrance version of Sabre) takes note and decides to help out. It is in the best interest of Amadeus, and some other big companies doing e-commerce to swat this first suit down FAST.
.no company will find itself fighting a huge court case, as well as defending against the counter-lawsuits. I doubt they will be able to win against something like that. Don't worry about this, its just the .no patent office being stupid, and a small company trying to get rich.
So this little
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
Now the internet just turned 30 years old awhile back. And I can remember episodes of 3-2-1 Contact from the 80's that showed how you could do your banking with a computer and a device called a "modem" (hmmm imagine that.hehe) This guy didn't file till 1993, seems to me he could easily be proven to not be the first "inventor" of e-commerce and if I understand the law correctly if he is not the first, then the man who was is entitled to the patent.
I wouldn't think we could narrow it down to the actual first person, but I think it would be VERY easy to prove that 1993 wasn't the first time e-commerce was used, which should effectively nullify his patent, right?
UK patents have no effect in the US. Ditto visa-versa. There is some sort of reciprocity through Europe with the EP system, but I am not sure exactly what the details are.
Didn't ecommerce exist via Minitel long before the Internet? Unfortunately I can't read German, and the bitmap format of the patent images precludes pasting into Babelfish, so it's difficult to say how much this article has been distorted by reading the patent claims.
Sorry, but this patent was issued by idiots in Europe, not the US.
In the US anyway there is such a thing as patent fraud which includes naughty activity like not disclosing all you know about the prior art to the patent office during the patent application. Perhaps Bellboy could be brought up on the European equivalent.
I don't think the Internet icon is appropriate for this. Due to some recent lawsuits and postings here we need to give these stories their due and come up with a new icon, I suggest a steaming pile of doggie doo. Damn lawyers