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High Intensity Computer Colleges?
JD asks: "Since I'm going to college in two years, I was wondering if there were any colleges that offer 'intensive' computer training. Most colleges offer computer programming in C++ and whatnot, but what about schools that offer programming in languages like ColdFusion, ASP, JavaScript, Java, and Perl, along with courses like system administration, unix, databases, and networking. A College that deals with all computers all the time with cutting edge machines and cutting edge topics." Sounds like a trade school. But are there trade schools that are this in depth? If so, are they exceedingly expensive?
CS degree is not about teaching you the latest and greatest technology. Tehre are plenty of companies which are more than willing to train you in the use of their technologies.
A CS degree is about teaching you the principles underlying a field. As such, it is intended to be very abstract. It is aimed at teaching you the logical system that underlies all computer science disciplines. There are many lessons that can only be learned in a controlled, academic setting. Therefore, the degree is not as concerned with whether the program is written in C++ or Java, but how a computer is language is constructed and how it meets its goals. The degree gives you the tools to quickly assimilate new technologies which means that going through the full 4 year ciriculum at an ACM accredited institution will make you a far better developer than simply learning each technology in an ad hoc manner.
I work as a software engineer at a company where most of the developers have not had the four year CS degree. The lack of this foundation leads to many headaches and poor designs. While the 4 year degree isn't as sexy as one would hope, it will make a far better programmer and open your eyes to things that you would not otherwise see. Finally, the upper echelon jobs in this field require at least a BA/BS in CS if not a MA or PhD, and that is where the umber cool stuff is occurring(i.e. XEROX PARC, ILM, Watson, etc.)
What you mention are specific skills, not
general concepts. What you describe is training,
not an education. if all you want is training,
you would be better off with vendor classes,
and maybe community college.
An education teaches you things much more
important that the skill, language, and software
of the week. It teaches you how to think. Learning
how to think about algorithms, logic, parsing,
and other traditional computer science topics
really does help with those real world
applications.
If you learn Java, you learn Java, but if you
learn the concepts of Object Oriented design
and programming as well as the language, then
you're much better prepared when the language
of the week changes. If you take a GOOD databases
class, you will learn database concepts in such
a way that you can apply them to current and
future database systems, instead of being tied
to one system you were trained on.
Just remember, learning how to think is much
more important in the long run than learning
vendor specific skills.
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First, almost all of those courses are offered at the school I'm currently (re-)attending. I'm taking Java and Unix System Administration. My professor is the head of the internet group at Wells Fargo Bank. The school is City College of San Francisco.
If you just want to learn those specific skills, check out your local community college, or just pick up a book and learn it on your own. At your age, you should have no problem picking up a new language or system from reading a book and playing with it on your own. (I didn't when I was your age.)
But, if you don't already understand the concepts, don't concentrate on learning a language. Learn the ideas behind it. If you don't understand the concepts, memorizing the syntax for Java, Perl, or even COBOL won't help you.
As others have said, get an education, not a skill.
But, when you ask about:
You're missing something. You can go to some place like MIT and learn all that really cool stuff like robotics and AI and all that, but when you get your Bachelors and start perusing DICE for jobs, you won't find too many of them out there.
Despite what another poster said, there are still an awful lot of COBOL jobs out there, as well as the newer stuff like Java. Not too many positions for people to design robots that can destroy other robots, at least not if you're fresh out of college.
So keep that in mind -- big uni's may have lots of really cool stuff, but they may not be what the real world is using.
On the other hand, there is a huge benefit to knowing more than just technical stuff. I can't begin to count the number of times the years spent hanging out in my dad's CPA office has helped me as a programmer.
Even stuff like literature and music help -- Having an extensive vocabulary and excellent grammar/spelling skills have helped make me a successful consultant, and my eclectic musical background has helped sharpen my logic skills.
So, to sum up, if you need specific skills, go to a community college. (I was having some trouble with learning Java on my own, (even after nearly 20 years in the business) but I am doing much better in the classroom setting.)
But, if you need a general education, both technically and otherwise, consider a four-year school. Concentrate on the concepts, and don't skimp on the other subjects.
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.
(I'm a third year EE major who hangs out with too many CS people for my own good. Take this with a grain of salt or several. Yeah, I can program, but I can't stand it. I'll design the hardware, then pay you to write the apps for it. [EG] )
I recommend finding the best darn CS program you can get into, like Berkeley, MIT, Stanford or CMU (just to name some off the top of my head). Take the theory classes (like everyone talks about in the other threads) and go to town learning how to develop algorithms, how to manage memory and how to PROPERLY organize "stuff" into a database.
While you're doing that, get a job on campus as a lackey (or if you have experience, as a real position) for a department's network and/or servers. Don't be an NT waterboy; take advantage of the fact that all these departments are running Solaris, IRIX, and other unices you've never seen before. Learn how to admin in a research environment where outages don't cost billions of dollars or lives or anything major, just that Dr. Smith can't check his email that evening.
You get the theory (which makes you a better programmer, DB admin, or network designer) along side real world experience (which is what makes you stand out from the kid who got a 0.2 better GPA than you who's graduating from the same program). You win on both fronts.
I'm currently net/sysadmin for the campus neuroscience department and still have enough time to participate in extracurriculars, keep grades up, and have a life. If you budget your time well and ******grab EVERY opportunity you can******* you will succeed in college and look good in the real world.
-Chris
There is a certain level that you cannot go above without a good understanding of math. If, for example you are going to go into cryptography, or try to write video encoding software you had better be a 'math person'.
Sounds to me like a recipie for dissatisfaction when you are 35. Get a good balanced education. Learn to write and communicate with other people. Take lots of math courses. As you go along in your career you will find that at some level you will be judged not only on your technical skills, but also your ability to communicate and manage other people. Engineers that hit 50 and find themselves unemployable generally have failed in building these skills; experience and knowledge are useless unless you caqn spread it around to the other people you work with.
I would suggest going to a school that offers both a good CS department as well as good liberal arts.
Georgia Tech can give you one kick-ass education in CS. As an undergraduate CS major, I feel that we get the complete package: it starts with learning basic algorithmic concepts (in pseudocode, no less), progresses to a real language (currently Java), and then blows wide open with classes on theory (algorithms and automata), compiler implementation, programming practicum, operating systems, software engineering, 00, language concepts, networking, and caffeine consumption. And that's *before* moving into one of the areas of specialization, such as AI, graphics, databases, usability, and seriously deep theory. It truly rocks.
Don't get me wrong--there's a lot of bad stuff about Tech. You have to put up with all sorts of bureaucratic crud, evil policies, hidden costs, a terrible male-female ratio, and all the demons that plague Atlanta (traffic, crime, pollution, heat, etc.). But in the end, you earn three really cool things: (1) a degree from a reputable college, (2) the flexibility required to adapt quickly to new technologies, and (3) a grim understanding of how life works. GA Tech really does teach you a little something about life, but that's a different subject.
If you go to Georgia Tech, you will learn about many different programming tools. However, you will master none of them: you will skip from language to language, learning one thing when you need it and then forgetting about it when it comes time to learn something else. Programming is about mastering the only real tool you have: your mind.
Georgia Tech Links
Undergraduate CS Program Info
General College of Computing Education Info
GT Main Page
Groan... Time to go write a C-preprocessor for lab.
-1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
- Maryland @College Park
- ...
College Park is strong in both CS and Physics. I was a dual major for three years, until my brain began to melt while taking OS Theory and Introduction to Theoretical Electromagnetism in the same semister and I decided that this was no longer fun. Never finished the physics degree, but maybe I'll go back someday.It's a good school. I got my BS in CS there in 1991 and my MS in 1993. If you want to ask me anything specific about it, drop me a line. (Remove "spambefuddler-" from the above e-mail address to reply.)
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
But before my opinion, some sad humor. I once suggested they introduce a credit course in Perl and even offered to teach it. The response? Perl is not a serious language, just a toy.
OK, first thing, you're screwed. You have to play all angles. To get to an interview, you have to please Personnel, to get hired, you have to please someone like me. We all look for different things.
Personnel departments obviously look for degrees, experience, and buzzwords. I would rather have a gung ho adaptive and smart guru with minimal experience than a deadwood "set in his/her ways" old timer who can't adapt to this rapidly changing world.
(Just as an example Old farts have a lot to offer too -- hey, I'm one myself -- but they HAVE to keep up with the market. Why do you think this old man reads Slashdot?!)
A good degree from a decent accredited institution is a must. While there, do your best to get a job at the place in the tech area. You might have to start working as an assistant in a student lab, but trust me, but that's also an ideal job. You'll have lots of time to study, experiment, and get paid at the same time.
Certifications don't mean jack to me. I've known some real idiots who have MCSEs. All they show me is that they know how to memorize facts and nothing else. If I give many of these MCSE chumps a non-textbook task, they can't function. For example, set me up an NT RAS dialin server using PAP, but authenticating against the IDs and passwords of our main UNIX systems.
Having a complex home network helps. A job candidate showed me recently that he has a complex network at his huge house where four generations of his family live. The entire house is networked, connected full time to the net via ISDN, using Linux as a gateway and all clients are Windows based. We telnet'ed into his home box and he showed me how he could monitor his home network. He prefers Windows boxen for personal use, but Linux was the ideal solution for his gateway/firewall setup.
Needless to say, I was impressed. He showed me an ability to think up solutions to problems, he was able to answer technical questions about it (so I knew *he* was the one who did it). He used the right tool for the job, and wasn't a platform bigot. Unfortuanately, he doesn't have any degree. Too bad, I want him. I have to have him! :-)
Another suggestion. Be smart on the net. Post intelligent posts to usenet and answer tech questions using your real name. More and more managers I know about use the net as a candidate research tool. Unfortunately, our selection process prohibits that since I can't remove info about candidates from the screening rooms, etc, etc... But other managers aren't stuck with limitations like this.
Your on-line activities can help or kill you. Want to act like a jackal on-line? Get a second account somewhere and don't use your real name! (Unfortunately, I don't always follow my own advice :)
My final piece of advice. Don't be a platform bigot. I HATE THEM. The world changes, the world has different solutions, different platforms have different advantages. In my younger days, everyone was an IBM bigot even though in the 60s and 70s other mainframe boxen from people like Burroughs (now Unisys) had far better and more advanced systems. A platform bigot robs me, the manager, of inputs so I can make the best decision for the company/college/whatever. Platform bigots should all die a horrible death.
Well I know that the focus here at Ga Tech is on programming concepts and algorithms..
Not specific languages (although if you get out of here without knowing java, c, smalltalk, and maybe prolog you've done something interesting)
(I also got a bit of pascal in that, but it was phased out for Java.)
Under the old curriculum we'd get to know lisp really intimately too.
Notice there isn't any c++ in there.. but remember that the focus is on algorithms and concepts.. Much Much more valuable than learning a specific language.
There are courses on security, etc but they are mainly graduate-level courses from what I remember. The intro to unix class (concurrency+control under the old curriculum, I'm not sure what it is under the new one) taught you all about make, etc, and had you create your own shell.
From what I understand now, there is some compiler stuff thrown in there now..
I thuroughly agree with the way they go about teaching CS here... I can pick up just about any language given a reference manual and a couple of hours, but the concepts are invaluable.
Personally, I'd avoid any courses which were tool-specific (an particular language is a tool), because most tools are relatively simple to learn/use with a bit of time invested in reading the manual. Weekend seminars and the like are much better for learning tools..
(And, of course, peer encouragement!!)
Good luck!
Do you want a skill, or an education? Trust me -- go for education. Where would all the COBOL programmers be today if Y2K pandemonium hadn't resuscitated their jobs? That's right -- they'd be out flipping burgers somewhere. Unless they adapt to new methodologies, they're obsolete.
That's what you'd be setting yourself up for with such an education. Sure, exposure to new technologies should be a part of the curriculum, but that will get you only so far. Cold Fusion won't be the Next Big Thing forever, Sun's marketing department won't be able to keep Java alive forever (I hope), and even Randal Schwartz, he of the great O'Reilly Perl books, has talked of plans for what to do "after Perl."
The best thing to get would be a solid basis in the theory underlying the technology, with enough exposure to the applications that you can understand and internalize the theory behind it. You can write a useful little VB application that does this or that cute little GUI trick, but if you don't have a solid understanding of the architecture behind it -- the data structures, the machine representation, the algorithms, and so on -- you will never be able to get the most out of your work.
Mind you, I'm *not* saying that theory is an end goal. As one of my professors put it (paraphrasing), being a consultant (i.e. theory specialist) is like being a sex therapist without ever having had a girlfriend. Or to mangle another person's statement, "Theory is to application as masturbation is to sex."
Obviously, you have to be able to apply what you learn, and yes that means exposure to current mainline technologies. But a general education can only go so far with this. Should the curriculum emphasize a good middle ground, like C++, or should it emphasize specific technologies like Cold Fusion web development, Oracle databases, Cisco routers, Visual Basic interface design, etc.? In other words, where should the specialization end? This question cannot be met by general education, nor should it. Once you have the basis, you can seek out and master the tools you will need *on your own*.
In the end, this should be far more valuable to you than a trade school training. I promise.
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
For example, anybody who gets a Ph.D. in the area usually called "Systems" will have to write significant amounts of code. My own dissertation required around 45K lines of stuff. In contrast, I have a fellow professor who is a theorist, and she recently told me that she doesn't even need pencil and paper to do research -- except that she likes to doodle while she thinks! That doesn't make her incompetent at CS. She just knows different stuff than I do.
As to your prof, just because his code didn't compile hardly means he's incompetent. It just means he was too lazy to test it before he gave it to you.
Having defended people, now let me also say that a lot of CS profs have no industry experience, which means that their approach to writing software is not always in tune with what industry needs. That's why many managers consider a fresh graduate as a trainee. It's not that the new hires are stupid or ignorant, it's just that they still need to learn a lot of practical aspects of the stuff they learned in college. The degree isn't useless, though: without it, you wouldn't be ready to learn the practical stuff.
Couple misc notes from fellow CMU student:
:)
* 'bout funding: There are both merit- and need-based grants and loans available. Yes, it's pricey, but the school IS interested in getting the best... this may mean things like matching offers from other schools (think: schools like CWRU. At least in '94, they had a fairly insane policy of granting $12K/yr scholarships to those w/ SAT \ge 1400, IIRC.)
At least the cost of living isn't that high here.
* It IS possible to get your B.S. here, and do very well at it, w/ maybe one all-nighter a year. Ya gotta pace yourself, 'tho...
* Yes, it's Pittsburgh. Bring your umbrella, and for you SoCal-ers, it snows.
* If you're considering on coming here, ask those of us who've been here for a while.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Yes, schools teach those. It's called a community college. But they just teach you how to use existing solutions, not how to create better solutions. I use many of the mentioned items in my work, but often find that no tool does what I want in a very complete or efficient manner. So I'm in the process of writing new software tools to accomplish what I need (which I can of course resell besides using for myself, so it's a good idea). It's from my training in how to find needs, build use cases, design software, test it, support it, bugproof it, etc., that I can pull that off. That only comes from a proper education in how to solve a problem, not from how to use somebody else's software which hopefully already has the problem solved (in my case the study was at the University of Utah, which, while not as well known, has a fantastic program, dealing in the same theory and such as Carnegie Mellon and MIT).
I'm in a Software Engineering sequence right now at Ohio State... and they hammer home again and again that the language is just the tool. They are teaching concepts of component based OO programming, which is really what you want to learn.
You can pick up multiple other languages in ONE credit hour classes here. Languages are easy - concepts are hard.
People seem to have a difficult time understanding that they are NOT supposed to be concentrating on the language, but the methods.
Cheers,
Brian
No matter what your choice. If you are smart enough to be at this site, do not even think of going to a trade school like DeVry. Go to a regular university. If you are thinking about it just read this page: http://www.drh.net/joz/html/devry.html That should change your mind. This goes for anyone thinking about going there. Spread the info!!