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Basic Linux Systems for the Home User?
Michael J. Kitchin asks: "I'm trying to configure a machine for my 89-year old grandfather, who's never even turned on a computer. His living situation led me to a little slimtop (a Gateway Profile) that I could probably slide another OS into if necessary. Trouble is, the entire pointer-window-desktop metaphor is proving hard to get used to, even though the trackball he settled on is easy to maipulate. His needs are few: writing some, maybe surfing the web, and reading eBooks. Has anybody written some kind of basic GUI that would meet his needs? Any tips/references for how I should lay out such a thing, if I had to? " This should be easy using a fairly simple X11 desktop with buttons to launch the small set of applications mentioned. What suggestions do you folks have?
Since the person asking the question did not once mention "Linux" in his question, I'm somewhat confused as to why the title of this Ask Slashdot is "Basic Linux Systems for the Home User?" Unless Cliff's biases are coming into play here, I don't see how this question could be interpreted in that way. The poster is asking how to set up a good system for his grandfather. He does not appear to care whether it is Windows, Mac OS, Linux, FreeBSD, or BeOS, as long as it works nicely. That's the proper question to ask anyway - asking "how do i set up a easy-to-use Linux box for my grandfather" is a stupid question, since you are unnecessarily limiting yourself to a single OS which may or may not be the best choice for the situation.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I've set up Linux running WABI running Juno, for my grandmother. She uses it for email only. I have it configured to autologin and start X windows with KDE. It's running on a 486-66, so I had to "trim the fat" in the /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit and other init scripts to cut down on the 2 minute plus boot time.
/var/log and /tmp, etc. dirs weren't getting cleaned out. The disk was almost full to start with, and she ran out of disk space after a year of use. You'd probably want to setup something to clean these up at boot time, so this doesn't occur.
She's had trouble navigating the K menu (icons too small, even at 640x480, for her), but the panel icons are okay. So you'd probably want to put all regularly used icons on some kind of panel or the desktop, so they are easy to get to.
Other problems she had: She shuts the machine down every day and doesn't use it late at night, so the daily cron jobs never get run. This means the
Another problem she had was, for some reason, the date got set to the year 2007 (don't ask me how, she didn't have root access and I didn't have RedHat's timetool set up so she could use it). Juno refused to run. She couldn't change the date back because of not having root access. (Well, I walked her through it over the phone).
I now have made "wish" suid-root so she can run the timetool script, and have put an icon for it next to the clock on the KDE panel. (I would use sudo or super, but my zip drive got "click of death" during the trip to her house so I couldn't get the files off it).
For those saying an iMac or Windows would be easier, I disagree. For someone at this level, an iMac, Windows, or Linux will be about the same to them, assuming everything they need to use is already configured. No reason X should get screwed up if you aren't installing anything or messing with the hardware. My grandma has run Linux for a year, with only the above two incidents occuring. You probably couldn't say that for Windows.
An iMac would probably be fine, but, at least in my case, cost *was* an issue (you know, retired people tend to live on fixed incomes, etc.). The PC was minimal cost. I could have put Win31 on there without WABI, but I wouldn't trust it to be as stable as WABI. Of course, you could try using WINE to run Juno-- it might do that now. (I had problems with the Modem configuration, last time I tried)...
Good luck, and let me know if you have any specific questions about how to set something up...
Warren E. Downs
Life's a lot like money-- you spend it, then it's gone. Spend wisely.
1) You've never gotten a call from a relative who knows less than you do about some program, going "how do I fix blah" or "how do I make it do blah"? Being able to connect to the machine can make these questions a lot easier to answer.
2) In my experience people who are uncomfortable with computers feel better when they know the system is set up in such a way that they can't hurt anything.
3) If the machine is powerful enough to run KDE comfortably everything the user sees can be icon based. In several ways KDE appears to be easier for new users than windows.
4) If the machine is powerful enough to run enlightenment comfortably (and you're willing to expend a little effort), it is possilbe to make an extremely easy to use enlightenment theme. Rather than an X symbolizing quit program, you can have a button that says quit program - it's annoying, but no one would miss the meaning.
Some people have the personality to tinker away, and some don't. My grandfather bought an XT years ago because my father and uncle were into computers, and tinkered until he could use it. But he wasn't afraid to mess around with it. On the other hand I have a grandmother who I had trouble showing how to play solitare on the computer because she was afriad she'd break it. There's no way that she could make it through an installation - particularly not if warnings like "autoprobing may damage hardware" appeared.
If someone wants to explore, by all means let them. But if they want to try out some of this stuff, but are scared, give them a system where they don't have to worry.
God does not play dice - Einstein
Not only does God play dice, he sometimes throws them where they
I know that you have invested in hardware already, but if I was going to do this I would have looked at something like WebTV and one of these dedicated word processors. The fact is you want appliances here, not a full blown computer. Computers of any type are unstable (yes, even Liunx - the first power failure that comes along could put the Linux box flat on it's ass). Second choice IMHO would have been an iMac. These things may crash once in a while but they have the best user interface, and don't suffer from registry corruption or fsck failures.
3 good reasons which come immediately to mind
(but I have to go so I'm not going to expand right now)
1) Remote administration.
2) Complete lock down of all necessary components so that Grandpa can feel free to go crazy on the computer and be assured that it won't break.
3) Remote administration.
As my father lik@(munch munch)...
I once - along time ago - consulted for a Russian ballet dancer who wanted to write his memoirs on a computer. He had a very hard time with basic things like hand eye co-ordination with the mouse and alien concepts like the hard disk/floppy disk and directories/folders metaphor. What I did was set him up with a bunch of macros under Word Perfect and showed him _one_ way to do things. Then he would note down step by step how to do that thing on a 3" x 5" card. This seemed to work pretty well except that Windows/Word Perfect was less than perfectly reliable and recovering when things didn't work perfectly was hard for him.
I think setting Linux up so that when he logs in KDE (or your favorite WM) comes up *with* say netscape and staroffice already started would be good. One of the 3x5 cards would be "switching to StarOffice - hold the ALT key down and hit the tab key until the little box on the screen says StarOffice then release the keys." In the case of the guy I was helping key combinations were much easier than mastering the mouse to "click once on the StarOffice icon."
By the by, one of the things that I see lacking when people get into discussing issues like making a computer accessable to people like this is a lack of respect for the challenge that seemingly simple tasks can be to someone who either doesn't have any frame of reference or background to do a supposedly easy task. There is nothing, in my opinion, intuitive nor natural about using a mouse, but it is a reasonably easy skill to learn for many people.
90% of the wealth is in 2% of the pockets. Bummer to be in the majority.
WindowMaker with very few appicons on the side. Have an X(or W) term button handy so when he calls you can get him to type the commands in. It's much less abstract. Also, load his favorite progs automatically on startup. Treat it like a kiosk. If you set it up properly, this could work out very well.
when someone says "windows is easier", its probably because they learned windows at some point in their life, then had to set up linux from scratch/distro...
unix is designed from the user's perspective. as an example, instead of having to know the PHYSICAL mapping of your drives (C:, D:, etc) which is rather pointless, you only need to understand the LOGICAL placement of files.
where are my files??? oh yeah! /home/grampa
next... in windows and mac, granpa can go in and REALLY mess up the system if he gets exploratory/lost... under unix, he logs in as a user, and can't delete/move/remove libraries, system files, programs, etc etc.. MUCH safer, with no manual set up required...
next... it won't crash as often. crashes are VERY confusing and VERY disturbing to newer users. they are VERY bad, and prevent people from desiring to use the computer. its a psychological thing. less crashing = good
next... security. with linux, grandpa won't have to worry about stupid things like virii, word macros jumping out to eat his system, etc...
next... remote admin. say grampa DOES get into a bind. grandson can ssh in (you're not using telnet still, right????) and fix it from home righ then and there. much nicer than a half hour drive. for both.
finally... don't underestimate grandpa. after a few months of "just" word processing and web surfing, he just MIGHT want to do something a bit more .. advanced. SURPRISE! the elderly are people too. and not as slow as some of us think. (btw, i'm 24, i'm not old. but i've met many very spry not-so-spring-chickens)
Aaron J. Seigo /. account is the day i have to admit i have a problem. =)
the day i get a
I disagree entirely -- Linux is not suitable for this task.
.. advanced. SURPRISE! the elderly are people too. and not as slow as some of us think.
when someone says "windows is easier", its probably because they learned windows at some point in their life, then had to set up linux from scratch/distro...
Sit someone down in front of a PC that has had zero computer experience at all. There's NO way they are going to ever be as proficient under Linux as they could be under MacOS or Windows unless they have some Linuxhead do the installation of software and administration for them.
With Macintosh/Windows, they can go into a store, buy a game, take it home, put the CD in the drive, close the drive, click 'Next' a few times (as per the directions that magically pop up on the screen), click 'Finish' and have instant access to a new piece of software.
"So have them download the software from the 'Net." Right there you open up a whole new can of worms. With IE and Windows, you can click on a link to an install file and get a nice window asking if you'd like to open that item. "Sure." Installation proceeds as above. Linux in its current state does not NEARLY meet the requirements of a "new" computer user or one who wants to do very simple, minimal tasks.
instead of having to know the PHYSICAL mapping of your drives (C:, D:, etc) which is rather pointless, you only need to understand the LOGICAL placement of files.
Where are files under Macintosh and Windows? Click on the "Computer" object (Windows). Click on the "Hard Drive" object (or "CD-ROM Drive" object). Click on the "My Documents" folder. This does not require the user to know anything about separate drive mappings, etc. To be fair, a suitably configured KDE/Gnome desktop can provide just as much abstraction, but this abstraction is not taken down to the application level. The same Gnome/KDE "objects" are replaced with application-specific dialogs that rarely bear any resemblence to that simplicity.
where are my files???
Inside "my computer." Inside my "hard drive." Inside the folder labeled "my files." "/home/grampa? how do I get there from here?"
next... in windows and mac, granpa can go in and REALLY mess up the system if he gets exploratory/lost... under unix, he logs in as a user, and can't delete/move/remove libraries, system files, programs, etc etc.. MUCH safer, with no manual set up required...
He can still do plenty of damage, mucking with application settings and any control panel available to him that does things setuid root. Any administrative time you specifically spend "securing" a Linux system from these kinds of forays could easily be spent under Windows marking things read-only or hidden, so they don't appear in folders. I imagine this would be pretty damn easy to do, also. Win98 even defaults to refusing to show you the contents of C:\Windows immediately.
next... it won't crash as often.
I won't disagree with you here, but a properly set up Windows system doesn't crash as much as people seem to think. I've had my Win98 system up for 12 days now, and my NT system at work (mainly due to the hard work of our PC support folks ensuring software and service packs we install are as stable as possible) has been up for not quite a month. If your "grandpa" isn't downloading and installing a bunch of 3rd party crap and device drivers from the 'net (like most of the windows slashdot demographic), most of his crashes will be uptime-related, and it sounds like in this case, computer activities will be limited in duration, allowing him to keep the machine turned off and turn it on only when he needs to use it.
next... security. with linux, grandpa won't have to worry about stupid things like virii, word macros jumping out to eat his system, etc...
He won't have to worry about these under Windows, either, so long as his activities (as the poster suggests) will be limited in scope to a few simple tasks. A simple background virus scanner is all that's required if he ever decides to get adventurous. I've never in my life had a computer virus under Windows. It has a lot to do with *how* you use your computer.
next... remote admin. say grampa DOES get into a bind. grandson can ssh in (you're not using telnet still, right????) and fix it from home righ then and there. much nicer than a half hour drive. for both
This is a good thing, certainly, but of course you assume this "bind" he's in won't prevent him from dialing up to his ISP. There are also "remote administration" tools available for Windows, for argument's sake.
finally... don't underestimate grandpa. after a few months of "just" word processing and web surfing, he just MIGHT want to do something a bit more
It's common knowledge that the learning curve for Linux is much higher than the learning curve for traditional operating systems like Windows and MacOS. Assuming you aren't foolishly disagreeing here, what OS do YOU think would entice people to try and learn more, one where they can grasp the basics and migrate to slightly more complex operations, or one where they have to study to grasp the basics to begin with? I guarantee people will become disenchanted with Linux and won't WANT to try and learn any further.
I'm not trying to diss Linux here. I use it as a small router/web server for my home network. I read my e-mail on it. I IRC from it. But people that are so overzealously touting Linux as the OS for Everyone and Everything need to realize that other operating systems DO beat Linux for certain tasks. I'm writing this message in IE (far superior CSS and XML support and faster than anything available for Linux) under Win98. I run my X apps (at the moment a simple xterm) remotely here (the Linux box has no keyboard/monitor). My roommate understands this concept as well (he has two PC's, one Windows and one Linux).
A lot of you started playing with Linux because it was an "alternative" and because it Did Stuff Better than the current mainstream OS's. At the same time, most of you are blinding yourselves with this "Linux is the best" crap that you are failing to see that there are ALSO alternatives to *Linux*, and some of those alternatives DO do things better than Linux. I see people saying "Don't lock yourself into one OS!" as a reason to try Linux while at the same time they're screaming to everyone "Don't use anything but Linux!" which is exactly the opposite mentality. Stop being so short-sighted that you fail to see when alternatives will be better.
Don't use an OS because you think it's cool and you want to be a l33t hacker cause it's what all the l33t hackers use. Use what's best for the task.
However, IMHO, Linux is probably better than Windows for someone elderly. Why? None of that -EVIL- Window Grabbing, no nausiating bleeps at any & every opportunity, no unexpected, random crashes, no random disk accesses (which can cause alarm, if you don't expect them) and few (if any) of those stupid, unnecessary application hangs.
BeOS is a good choice, for similar reasons, though may not have sufficient software to go with it. You would do well to check into that. It might also not work on your hardware - last I heard, BeOS did not do well on the driver department, but that might have improved.
*BSD is an OK choice, as they offer most of the advantages of Linux, with improved robustness and performance. (Those ARE necessary for the elderly. Possibly more so than for younger people, as they need the extra mental stimulation, and don't do well with fiddly reboots.)
For window managers, I'd say either KDE or Gnome with Enlightenment. Enlightenment is marginally easier to use than KDE, IMHO, but both are excellent and offer most of the functionality that the elderly need.
Last, but by no means least, work WITH how they think, not against. Pick a system that follows the style of the user; don't force someone in their late 60's, early 70's, to learn some entirely new way of thinking. They probably won't, especially if they have to. If the computer thinks the same way, though, it'll be easier to adopt and use.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I strongly disagree with that. I've worked with people who use a computer for nothing more then e-mail and word-processing and know nothing about Computers or Windows or anything.
Ah, the problems you have to work around. Even the paper clip stumps them. Whenever the paper clip dude pops up, they are stuck until I can come over and close it. I have to replace keyboards with ones with no Windows key. Again, when they accidentely hit the Windows key and the start menu pops up, all work stops until I go over there and get rid of it.
There's no concept of "minimizing". The application may as well not exist in minimized form. Everytime a new window pops up, unasked for, work quits until I close it. Windows is counter-intuitive. Sure, you can "learn" it like anything else, but you really don't know what it's like until you get someone to use it who's never seen a computer before and wants to do something that should be a simple task.
Nope, get Linux on the box, with icons for only the apps that are to be used. No worries about being able to break anything or get "lost". That's the way to do it.
-Brent--
I would probably go with an iMac for a grandpa type. I haven't yet seen a GUI on linux that was so easy to use that I would give it to a grandparent, although i have used some very customizable ones. The iMac is is amazingly easy to use for someone who'snever turned a computer on before. If you're worried about software it comes with AppleWorks and some other toys that give it pretty good functionality for the price. If you absolutely insist on Linux then go for AfterStep, it is customizible enough where you could probably make it simple to use. A Gateway Profile might not be thebest pick for asystem though, you can probably find a case from an old Mac (the thin ones from the really old models) and stick a Cyrix MII inside it.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Why does this ASK slashdot have to turn into a battle again?
:)
:)
:)
:) :) Plus if she is stuck my brother or friend can help out.
Stop moaning and write your answer/help, Michael J. Kitchin (the poster) can make his own mind up on the info he has from us being productive with our posts...
here is my answer, i'm sure you will all mark this
Mum new to PC's/internet etc.. (not of the computer age and work has "these new PC's!"
wants something simple to use and easy to remember etc..
(Some of you will scoff) Set up WindowsNT on p133 64Mb.
Locked down most i could without being too restrictive.
"Hiding" ALL non-relevent files folders does the trick too!
Put home directory in an easy place.
Made Icons/text large. (likes it that way
Placed icon on desktop for Home directory(MyFiles!).
Placed icons on desktop for programs she uses.
Sorted out colors appearence to way she likes it and is best to read/look at.
Made default save/load directory for apps mum uses the home directory so no searching!
The latter half of this i did with mum, asking her what she wanted and how she wanted to have the desktop icons layed out
Sat down with mum and watched "her use it" for a few hours, she asks questions , i answer, she writes down in a little notebook until she remembers.
I watch what she is trying to achive/do and help her advise on the most simplest/easeist way for her.
If you are helping someone new/old, dont overcrowd them with what you think is good/whizzie, understand what 'they' want to achive and act upon it in a manner that they will understand.
You cannot go mad with technology and set up how "you think they want it" and walk away, ask what they want and when you do it get them to sit with you they can tell you what they expect to do with it or how they would like to have the PC "presented to them".
You will find this svery rewarding as mum has thrown away here restrictions and now know a heck of a lot more now than i ever would expect!!
And is happier at work using computers, she even has a geek c0de
// I used NT cos its easy (cheap cos my bro is a student and uses it too). 100% reliable [THAT IS UTTER TRUTH ON MY HEART]
95/8 falls over way too much with wierd and confusing msgs and lets you delete too much
I am a linux dude, have been for years but if mum learns linux at home then it wont help her in the office it will only confuse and fustrate
This topic is more than a tecchie post its about giving easy access to computing/internet to non-tecchies. Proving the desktop AND teaching/helping them how to work with it.
ells..
Why bother with Linux for your grandfather? Is it some techie pride that you must install Linux everywhere possible?
I'd suggest just sticking with whatever OS is there and letting granddad rip. He probably won't care as long as it works well, and I can bet that the performance will not suffer regardless of the OS on the machine.
Linux is not the be-all end-all OS, although it works very well for me in my home situation. (dual pentium II-400, SuSe 6.1, C++ programming)
This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
First off, I would like to state for the record that I am a big fan of Linux. I have a Linux box at home, and our servers at work all run Linux. That being said... For people like your grandfather, and actually most everyone out there who wants a home computer, they should probably stick with something simple like the iMac. Easy to set up, easy to maintain, easy to use. Simple. I would recommend my father get one. And my sister. And my mom. And most of my friends. The 3 things people want to do are: surf, email, write. Since all computers do that these days, the masses should stick with what is simplest. The iMac. I saw the iToaster from Microworkz and liked the concept, though I have heard nothing about it as of yet. The OS is BeOS based. Pretty neat idea, I just wish that a more reputable company came out with the product first. Shawn
Why bother with Linux for your grandfather? Is it some techie pride that you must install Linux
everywhere possible?
I cannot answer for the original person who answered the question, but as one who has given Linux to his own mother, his sister, and numerous non-computer literate friends, I can tell you that, yes, technical pride plays a role. I want my family and friends to have systems they can use and enjoy, as opposed to something which is crash prone, difficult to maintain, and suffers notorious "bit-rot" over time, ultimately resulting in a required reinstall. In addition, I do not want to be fielding tech support calls on how to fix this or that misfeature of Windows, especially on my time off. With Linux, I almost never get calls at all, and when I do, they are questions like "how do I do xxx?" which takes about two seconds to answer, vs. "My Windows system is broken, how do I fix it" which takes anywhere from a few minutes to a trip to reinstall the once-again corrupted OS because dll blah was overwritten by the new version of MS Office).
As an example of someone like the original poster's grandfather, I have a friend (another pilot) who was sick of Windows crashing nearly every time he tried to access the net or do serious work with his IFR flight simulator. I told him about Linux (and the free software philosophy in general) and he was very excited to try it. So one Saturday evening, before going out to Exit to party the night away, we installed Debian Linux on his system. He was on the internet in no time, at which point we downloaded Star Office and FlightGear. The Flight Simulator isn't yet usable for serious IFR work (no panel), but as a toy it is fantastic. Star Office and Netscape fulfill his other needs, and his system has never crashed on him (it's been several months now). He has said on several occasions that he will never go back to windows -- and this is despite the fact that he knows little to nothing about Linux and how to administer it, and despite the fact that his favorite flight simulator does not run under Linux (he won't even dual boot anymore to run the simulator, as he gets too angry when, inevitably, Windows decides to head south during a particularly challenging approach procedure).
and I can bet that the performance will not suffer regardless of the OS on the
machine
I would take that bet in a second. If you are using Windows, your performance will suffer with systems crashes (occasional if you never install new software, more frequent if you do) and slower overall speed, to name two. Under FreeBSD or Linux, this will not be the case. Install any one of several friendly X GUI's and the user won't care, except in as much as their system will be both faster and much, much more stable. Where on earth have you been, to believe that the OS makes no difference in a computer's performance (or did I completely misunderstand what you were saying)?
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
This doesn't have much to do with software config, but
one thing to keep in mind is that your visual acuity drops with
age. I'm not talking about the focus problems that necessitate reading glasses,
but rather the effective resolution of your retinas. Take a piece of paper and draw some parallel lines 1mm apart on it. How far away can you distinguish
those lines, even with perfect focus? Whatever answer you got, it will decrease with age.
The conclusion I draw from this is that a laptop is not a very good solution
for older folks. You want a BIG monitor set to 800x600, so as to make those pixels nice and big.
I noticed this when I was helping my grandfather surf the web on my mom's laptop. His eyes had a lot of trouble distinguishing a lot of the tiny user interface elements that I take for granted. (Anybody remember the old single-pixel HFS indicator on the Mac Finder?)