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Extraterrestrial Real Estate for Sale
Tom Mulcahy pointed us over to The Lunar Embassy. Yes, that's right. You can purchase real estate on the Moon, Io, Venus, Mars, and, apparently the Universe. Ah, the beauty of capitalism.
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Be careful when you choose a planet to put your money in. Due to limitations of the TCP/IP standard (2 minute timeout) you won't be able to access the 'net from your favorite Mars part.
:)
It's a good argument to use when negotiating the price
Uh, guys, isn't this a novelty item?
:v)
Nobody owns the moon. Ownership is prohibited by a few treaties. Details of the legal aspects of owning the moon can be found off the Artemis Society homepage, specifically in the Frequently Raised Objections section.
As an aside, TransOrbital Inc. is going to be taking pictures of the moon using a telescope in lunar orbit, so people will be able to have a picture of "their" plot if they choose.
Vik
After all, if you went there and declared autonomy, who would come stop you?
Lack of food, fuel, and oxygen.
Berlin-- http://www.berlin-consortium.org
DNA just wants to be free...
This is a really annoying form of profiteering. It's capitalizing on peoples interest in space and space exploration. There's technically nothing wrong with of course. I find it sad however that no good will come from this for space exploration. People are going to hand over money for a useless certificate.
I'd much rather see people donate money to the Planetary Society. Sure, you don't get a nifty laser printed certificate you can pretend entitles you to interplanetary real estate but maybe you'll fund some useful research.
Only problem with the Moon Treaty is that the United States and the other space-faring civilizations refused to sign it.
According to the The Artimis Project:
The Moon is a venue of "lex nullus"; that is, it is identical in legal status to the high seas, meaning that nobody can own it and everybody can go there.
Good... Now I can finally fulfill my plans to bring prostitution to space. I bet that would get people interested in space travel. ;]
Actually, I would like to see who bites onto this one and starts buying up chunks of the moon.
wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
Well, I'm fundamentally dependent on Earth for resupply, and I'm quite vulnerable to attack. But there's a much more fundamental problem then that: Because the Outer Space Use treaty and related international law prevent any nation from making a territorial claim in space, private organizations are effectively blocked from going anywhere. We worry about this often over on sci.space.policy and everywhere in the space-advocacy community.
The gist is this: suppose I'm a company that sees some value in putting up a moonbase, or maybe I'm the Artemis Project. I need to put, let's say, $10 billion into accomplishing that. Unfortunately, I'm trying to build something that has no protections whatsoever under national or international law. How do I convince investors this is a good bet? How do I value off-planet property as a corporate asset in an IPO, when I can't even determine legally what my property is? How do I insure against accident? Insurers like to have a really specific notion of what they're getting into. If the Department of Defense decides they need my moonbase more than I do, am I protected by eminent domain laws, or not?
Remember, I'm not just the 6 guys up on the moon protecting their property rights by lobbing rocks at the Capitol building; I'm also the enormous organization back on the ground that got them there. Lack of law makes my life very, very difficult back on Earth.
The folks down at SpaceDev (http://www.spacedev.com) are running a private research mission to an asteroid, and their chances of making it look pretty good right now. If they do, Jim Benson (their CEO) has said he expects to lay claim to it as property. Moved to Earth, its mineral value is probably in the tens of trillions of dollars. Should he get to keep it? We obviously need a system where entrepeneurs get to keep the fruits of their labor, or no one will ever bother with space- as most people aren't bothering now, in the absence of that system. But we don't want people making enormous claims based on minor accomplishments, either, and at some point any large development in space is going to be more than just property; it'll be a nation, or at least a city, too. How do we structure law to enable this, and can we get any new treaty past China's veto anyway? I'd love to hear some new geek ideas.
What's the NSA going to say about importing new Martian encryption technology? Or, heaven forbid, providing the new superadvancedaliens with 128-bit DES :)
Can your IM do this?
Some theories speculate that he was from Norway.
It goes like this: Columbus never actually used the name Columbus himself. He used "Colon", which means "farmer". Around the same time of the first records of his father, a family from one of the oldest royal families in Norway, "Bonde", emigrated due to a power struggle.
"Bonde" is Norwegian for farmer. Also, Columbus weaponshield used the same symbols as the Bonde family, and the family had a connection to Italy.
If that theory holds, the current heirs of the Columbus name can trace their family back to Assyrian royalty somewhere around 1000-500 B.C..
There is record of the ancestors of the Bonde family as Assyrian royalty that migrated through Europe, at some point serving the Pope, then moving through what is now Germany, as part of the Karolingian dynasty, controlling part of Germany. At some point they emigrated again, and became the foundation of one of the oldest known Scandinavian royal families, with lots of power both in Sweden and Norway.
At one point they held the Norwegian throne.
Then, as mentioned before, a part of the family suddenly disappears totally, after a power struggle. And at the same time Christoffer Colon (oddly similar to Kristoffer Bonde - as mentioned, Bonde and Colon has the same meaning), and his father appears in public records in Italy, using the same weapon shield. And Christopher soon develop royal ambitions (claiming the title of "vice king" of any land he discovers). Also, according to several accounts from his lifetime, he had fair or reddish hair, and is very tall.
It's an intriguing thought :-)
If it's true, it means that his current heirs can pretty much give up any thought of spending time of genealogy - that family is extremely well documentet.
(Btw.: All historical detail is a result of my bad memory of a book on the subject... I'm likely to have screwed up details :-)
I thought there was an international agreement to prevent territory wars that said that no country or person could lay claim to land outside of earth? This would seem to be in violation of that...
I can say to you that I will sell you a spot on Mars, but if (someday) you could go to that little spot that I said you own and you find little green men living there, it is no longer thiers?
More or less. At least, that's the way it worked when we screwed over the American Indians.
I would like to sell people little glass vacuum spheres. Then you can say you own nothing, and it is something!
In all seriousness, that's not a bad idea for a novelty gift.
Berlin-- http://www.berlin-consortium.org
DNA just wants to be free...
Does that mean that people will then suffer Venus envy?
This space for sale
I'm gonna host the first Slashdot mirror on the moon! Of course, it will be a little slow, but think of the media coverage!
Do you believe in the Prime Directive?
Answer
We do. Really. It's more than just a silly rule, but more a philosophy to life. We feel, we all must learn to respect all life, no matter what it looks like or where it came from. Our team has several Star Trek fans, mainly TNG tho, so please don't ask them about what Kirk did in episode 27. Their favorite Trek episodes are The Inner Light (TNG), although the Borg ones as well as All Good Things, rank right up there amongst the top ever, surely. Ah. They don't make them like they used to. Please note, that in honour of Star Trek VIII:"First Contact", the next two Lunar Cities will be named "Tycho-City" and "New-Berlin" as mentioned in the film. Our message is: Live now, because now, will never come again.
What happened to "Live long and prosper"? Who's the star trek fan?
Joseph Elwell.
It would be much easier to take Harriman to court for the price of those stamps which never actually flew. Might win that way.
According to international law, the UN, etc. etc... the Moon is not owned by any one entity, and therefore, having someone "selling" territory on it is impossible.
Its all kinda pointless until we actually manage to actually establish a viable colony, anyway...
or better yet, "f0bic, your seksi voice helped me through the night"
IANAL, and it has been four years since I took a "Space Treaties and Legislation" class...
Under The Outer Space Treaty (short title), no country can stake claim on an extraterrestial body (including the Moon) -- says nothing about private organizations. The Moon Treaty (short title), which only a handful of countries have signed (none of the major space powers have signed it), is based on The Law of the Sea Convention and is more muddy regarding private ownership rights.
As to whether the U.S. could currently claim ownership, territorial waters traditionally had been defined by the range of the most advanced artillary of the time (weapons of the last few decades has made this absurd, which is why there is now an arbitrary distance used). Even if the U.S. claimed ownership of the Moon, it is currently in no position to defend that claim.
Christopher A. Bohn
cb
Oooh! What does this button do!?
How do you take ownership of a patch of the Moon, then? Well, back in the old days (i.e., the Renaissance), you went there with a Government-sponsored team and claimed the land in the name of a nation. You then stacked it up with soldiers to make sure no one contradicts your claim.
So, if you buy a land on the Moon, how are you going to go there and claim it, much less defend it against invasion?
The simple fact of the matter is, you can't. And Governments will let you dream on about your little patch of Moon property until they decide otherwise.
In the meantime, people are giving money away, mostly because they think it's fun. But if you think that's much fun, there's a nice bridge for sale on Io. Just give me a call.
"Knowledge = Power = Energy = Mass"
Well, the same can be said about the whole planet. :)
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
"TREATY ON PRINCIPLES GOVERNING THE ACTIVITIES OF STATES IN THE EXPLORATION AND USE OF OUTER SPACE, INCLUDING THE MOON AND OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES" from http://www.acda.gov/treaties/outspace.htm .
The United States signed this treaty on the 27th of January, 1967 and deposited an instrument of ratification on the 10th of October, 1967 - making this treaty US law. As far as I can tell, all the countries with a reasonable chance of having a space programme have signed and ratified it, including China, which agreed to the treaty in 1983.
What does this treaty have to say about property on the moon?
Article I, para 2
Outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, shall be free for exploration and use by all States without discrimination of any kind, on a basis of equality and in accordance with international law, and there shall be free access to all areas of celestial bodies.
This means you can't keep anyone off of your lunar claim. You can't keep them from building or prospecting or from exercising any other right you have to some strip of land either. Under those conditions, what good does a deed do you?
Article II
Outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means.
This means that no nation can claim exclusive jurisdiction over the moon or any part of it, and that makes it basically impossible to obtain a deed that other countries would consider binding.
Article VI
States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. When activities are carried on in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, by an international organization, responsibility for compliance with this Treaty shall be borne both by the international organization and by the States Parties to the Treaty participating in such organization.
This means you can't claim the treaty doesn't apply to you because you aren't affiliated with a national government. Anything you do in space falls under the jurisdiciton of some country.
In short, a deed to the moon, an asteroid, or anything else in space is completely worthless so long as this treaty is in force.
I almost made a killing on eBay selling my moon property, and now you had to inform everyone. Thanks a bunch.
Yes, Marvin and his Illudium Q-36 Space Modulator should be our biggest fear. Forget our claim on the Moon, he'll annihilate us for blocking his view of Venus!
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Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Think of the advertising possibilities! Chairface chippendale would be proud!
STFU about slashdot bias.
Pardon the segue, but...
.02
We're talking about a very long-term venture here. Space, once we get rolling, will be our future. So while a "no private ownership" creed might be conforting and viable now, it will not hold up for long.
And what a wonderful way to discourage private industry from going! "You can own chunks of a finite resource down here but don't even think of laying claim to a speck of infinity." What breed of political bullshit is this??
Glad nobody in the fifteenth century tried this nonsense...
My
Quux26
My
Quux26
www.crashspace.net
The Outer Space treaty was almost a decade before the Law of the Sea (which the US still hasn't ratified) and was mostly modelled on the terms of the Antarctic treaty, with one exception. The Antarctic treaty does not annul national claims in Antarctica (a number of nations claim parts of it and the claims overlap), it simply postpones their enforcement and resolution indefinitely. The Outer Space treaty very definitely forbids claims to any object in space.
There is a tendancy to use UTC in space applications; if people start dispersing to the moon, this provides some time delay issues in communications that would result in sync issues; heading further afield to Mars would be similarly disruptive to synchronization of activities.
It's possible that one might get meaningful information out of a GPS unit from the moon, albeit with extremely screwy coordinates as they'd be relative to the earth. (Mind you, it is probable that consumer units would shut down as you'd be moving more than 999mph relative to earth's surface...)
Determining time/location will provide opportunities for new fields in vCards and for a bunch of new RFCs. I thought there was one on this, but in querying the archives, I seem to be mistaken...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
...using an early model super-computer. Yup, the whole moonshot is CGI. Naturally computers, even super-computers, weren't real good in those days, so to make up for the lack of detail, they made all the footage look grainy. You've seen films from the late 1960's, they don't look grainy! Don't you think if they had really gone to the moon they wouldn't have brought a better camera?
And they got a young George Lucas to direct it. He was recruted by the CIA during his film school years. That's how he got all the cool ideas for shooting Star Wars.
This was all proven by the Weekly World News years ago. Get with the programme, dude!
(For the humour impared, yes, I'm kidding.)
Haven't we learned about dealing in land that isn't ours, lands that we can't even get to?
You know, just in case they find something in it.
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My mom's going to kick you in the face!
I meant to say when travel to and colonization becomes trivial, not non-trivial. Sigh.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
An AC SAID: The U.S.S.R. was the first to land on the moon, your government just didn't let you know, poor americans. BTW the amstrong landing was a scam, they had shoot it some place in Nevada and Quebec, don't believe everything you see on TV.
this is my favorite ac conspiracy theory.
Have you seen the moon footage? did they shoot in that new low gravity area of quebec? come on kid. stay anonymous so that nsa doesn't "dissapear" you for letting it out of the bag.
WTF, why do this now? People have been selling the Universe (and even the occasional Multiverse) on eBay for months...
-Lx?
This brings to mind the recent article about Arthur C. Clarke, where he mentions his asteroid. Can I buy a plot of land there? I'd love to say I own part of Arthur C. Clarke. :)
Seriously, though, what is the point of buying this real estate? Can anyone really expect these claims to hold up if and when we do get to space? And what if we just can't live there? Oh, well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Btw, does anybody really want to live on Uranus? (Sorry, couldn't help myself?)
With the kind of cash Bill Gates has, he could buy a couple of planets... Just imagine the destruction though, MS Moon would probably crash into the earth a couple times a day....
-- My neighbors dog has a four inch clit.
I think you've find that, in this case as in many others, possession is nine tenths of the law. After all, if you went there and declared autonomy, who would come stop you?
-- Slashdot sucks.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
When colonization starts happening on the moon or mars or wherever, there will be a bunch of people that bought property from somebody who want their piece of it. They're gonna be pretty bummed... :-)
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
Contrary to popular belief, ownership by individuals of extraterrestrial properties is not forbidden.
Well, ok, but it does not therefore follow that anyone will take any of these claims seriously.
The US government has several years to contest such a claim. They never did. Neither did the United Nations nor the Russian Government.
They've never contested my claim that I'm Napolean Bonapart, either.
Two former US President and several very prominent stars own their Lunar property already.
Did they actually *buy* claims, or were they gag gifts?
This is all pretty silly. If some really rich person -- let's call him D.D. Harriman -- went up and established a lunar colony, and some nut tried to take him to court because he did it on land "claimed" this way, it'd take a judge about 5 minutes to throw the case out. (Not counting the 15 minutes it'd take to stop laughing.)
"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan