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Xi Announces Hardware Accelerated 3D X Server
Thanks to Jeremy Chatfield for poking me about Xig [?] 's recent press release regarding them being the first to market a commercial hardware-accelerated 3D X
server. They will be showing at Comdex, next week, and shipping in December. Support for cards looks nice as well, with over 30 cards supported,from companies like 3Dlabs, ATI, Evans & Sutherland, Diamond, S3 and Matrox.
Does anyone know if this server will support games such as Q3test, specificaly on a TNT?
This article has been here for an Hour, and no posts?
3d x server, interesting, Maybe I have just been under a rock or something, but what would be the advantage?
"If you have done 6 impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways" -- hhgg
"Support for cards looks nice as well, with over 30 cards supported,from companies like 3Dlabs, ATI, Evans & Sutherland, Diamond, S3 and Matrox."
..and no support for cards with the PowerVR chipset. Anyone want to buy a relic?
These guys post a lot of stories that slashdot does before /. and they don't get anywhere near the traffic that they deserve. anyways, I'm dammiting because I read this already at that site.
No support for Voodoo 3???
I have a feeling that there is probably a good-ish reason for this. Anyone know what it is?
After reading the mini flame war awhile back that involved Xi, I say let them keep their closed source X server. The disparaging comments and ads that the principles of Xi made about Xfree where horrible. So I say let this product wither on the vine or rot on the tree as Eve should have done with the fabled apple. I don't hold this opinion lightly. I am dying to get good accelerated 3D support for Linux. It is the last thing that my win32 box is required for. As soon as Xfree 4.0 is out, or a commercial server is availble from a decent company (like Precision Insight or Metro Link) I am there.
I would really like to know when I will be able to run Quake3 (with a Hercules Dynamite TNT2 Ultra) as fast on Linux as on Win98
I can't even remember what it was I came here to get away from - Bob Dylan
Okay what's the big deal with this if Xfree86 version 4.0 is coming out soon? Why do these guys bother... other than the 3d support for cards other than 3dfx based and Nvidia (and hopefully soon ATI and Matrox) that are freely supported by xfree in 3d mode.
Regardless, what functionality could pros need which isn't in the entertainment edition? Don't they realize OpenGL is OpenGL, and that to restrict the hardware based on what amounts to not paying as much for drivers is somewhat asinine? If the professional edition means having better/faster emulation for what the card doesn't support in hardware, that's fine, but if it means crippling the hardware, that's outrageous. Then again, $100 is a bit outrageous for a video card driver, too. :P
I'm just going to wait for XFree 4.0. It'll be out soon enough; in the meantime, Mesa's software renderer is enough for me. (Yes, it's slow, but that just helps me optimize my code even better. :)
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"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
If you take closer glance at the list of cards they support so far, you'll notice that only a few of current chipsets are supported. I'm sure the list will increase rapidly, and eagerly await support f.ex. the GeForce 256 chipsets. ...So I could buy one. :)
If, and only if, you get the AX 5.0 with it, otherwise, it's a bit much, I'd love to be able to upgrade AX5.0 with these driver, but If I have to pay $99, then I start paying too much. I already paid the obligatory $99 for the server so I could go to 1600x1200 on my rage128, (long before SuSE came up with their driver), if ATI Lets developers get their hands on the 3d programming specs, I may end up back at XFree86, and use the GPL Rage128 OpenGL drivers. (I can see why they're doing this though, specs are hard to get when you will probably end up publishing the source, kinda makes an NDA useless, XiG doesn't have that problem)
Stupid is as stupid dies.
Basically, this amounts to "only professionals need multiple GL contexts, and so you need to pay 2.5x as much to get multiple GL contexts." I find this somewhat outrageous, myself. They also make a big deal about features which are standard parts of OpenGL and which, as I already stated, are basically just parts of a graphics card driver which are only being enabled for people willing to pay more.
Also, 64 MB RAM for an X server? That's just beyond ridiculous. (That's for both the entertainment and pro versions.)
None of the feature lists say anything about GLX (network-transparent OpenGL), either. XFree can do GLX now.
Oh, another thing: they are a bit incomplete, at best, when saying what cards they support. The only nVidia chipset they seem to support is the TNT2 - they don't have any listed support for the TNT, or the Riva 128 series. They also don't have any listed supported Matrox cards. For their sake I hope they just forgot to complete their supported cards list.
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"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
My advice: Don't buy this GL server. Wait for XFree 4. Just because they're first to market doesn't mean they're the best; personally, I can't stand the thought of supporting any company which resorts to Microsoftian tactics to try to put themselves above the rest of the Linux world.
Speaking of Microsoftian tactics, they even have separate versions of their CDE for executives and developers each on desktop and laptop computers! Four different versions "optimized" to the supposedly different needs of different users, rather than having a single product which can be tuned to the needs of the individual! Pathetic.
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"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
XiG is a bunch of jerks. They are rude in person and via email.
They have demoed this as vapor ware for well over a year, in an attept to dissuade OSS development of simmlar software.
Furthermore, their X servers are unstable and bloated from a lot of people expirences.
Finally, XF86 3.9.16 (for G400) is quite a bit faster then the latest AccelX and the GLX module for 3.3.5 rocks with the G400.
If you need a commercial X server for some reason, then give metro X a call. They really are nice.
The subject says it all.
First they blast free, open software and call it crap that screws up your whole linux system, then they try to sell their closed source junk to the same people they blasted a month ago. Get a life.
Don't forget that we have an open source project that works right now. Accelerated GLX for XFree86 3.3.5 supports Matrox G200 and G400 as well as Riva TNT2 cards. Support for Rage Pro chipsets is on the way, too. So you might want to consider contributing some code to the project rather than shelling out for the new Xi server...
F0 07 C7 C8
Most people only use one graphics board at a time, if it's not supported by XFree86 then buy one that is for less money than it takes to buy a closed source driver.
There seems to be a lot of press about SGI and NVIDIA. NVIDIA seems pretty Linux friendly and SGI certainly knows about opengl
Of course, there goes the whole Linux is great because it costs nothing. If I have to by an X server for all 500 machines in my school, I've paid more than that other OS costs.
Having said that, as a personal user, I have purchased both laptop and desktop versions of Accelerated X. The reason was because Xfree did not support my video cards at the time. And, Accelerated is substantially faster even though Xfree does support them now.
Hey I remeber this line from the mailling list archive.
;( ]
...
>You go ahead and wait for OSS to catch up; it's only been what 5-6 years so far, but it'll Real Soon now right?
You are Jeremy Chatfield right? Infamous XiG evangelist. C'mon you must have an account rather than being an AC? [I don't have one
I can hear the Pearl Jam song right now
"... and Jeremy spoke on Slashdot today..."
A lot of people are saying the same thing: "wait for XFree 4.0". I've been hearing it for over a year. So, the question is: when?
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
"the first to market a commercial hardware-accelerated 3D X server." Pardon my ignorance but haven't SGI been doing that for a decade?
-- SIGFPE
Uh, where does it say Matrox is supported for this product, because I certainly didn't see it anywhere of Xig's page. No Nvidia support either. Rather pathetic really.
I really don't like it when people complain about microsoft on technical merits (esp since i think they make quite decent software & hardware most of the time), but it's a different matter when you all abuse the hell out of programmers who just want to make a living. They aren't as big as Microsoft, so they can't survive bashing like this.
I can't help but feel really sorry for relatively small companies who try to make a living, but then get bashed around by a community which really should either support them or shutup.
BTW XFree is more unstable, and yes, I do believe it is one of the most unstable aspects of Linux (since it's so important too). XFree + Netscape 4.x == RUN, argh RUN!!
Sure. 3.3.5 is slower then AccelX.
I think that 3.9.16 is preety damn stable. It's never crashed on me, something I can't say about AccelX.
The point is, 4.0.x will be as stable as 3.3.5, and it's already faster then AccelX.
Can you please expand on why my observation of AccelX being unstable and bloated is stupid? It certantly crashed with a lot of apps, and has larger requirements then XF86.
Finally, something that will allow commercial companies to port high end rendering software to Linux.
Very good news indeed.
Does this mean there will be standard supported API to code games to ?? If it does then great !!
I use AccelX. It's a great product. The people at Xig have been nice to me both over the phone and through email. They were able to help me when the LUG mailing list snobs would not.
People on this list should stop complaining about costs. Let's for instance compare the $99 bucks for AccelX to VMWare. You guys have no problem paying $99 for VMWare which, of course, is not open source. Funny how the world of slashdot hypocrites continues to turn!
I was using xf86 that came with redhat 5.2 and it was ok in speed. Then I tried xig and it was at least twice as fast. Try playing a 30fps mpeg with xf86 and see how many frames get dropped, like 50%. How many of you can actually say you have tried their product? Well? I find it faster with my 4meg s3 virge card.
They will sell plasma to get the newest video card so they can play Quake, but they won't spend $5 for a piece of software unless they can see the source, even though a small fraction of them even understand the source to anything, except the little "Hello world" program they wrote in 3rd hour.
AMEN ...........
Folks, I come from a Windows background, and 5.0 versions of many proprietary software products crash and burn more often then prerelease stuff from OSS coders! Being a commercial product does not make something better or more stable. Heck, the mighty Windows 2000(TM) RC2 crashed spectacularly on me the other day! Took everything down with it, too, just because the Windows Explorer crashed. So in conclusion, stop complaining about OSS stuff, Enlightenment, etc. If you love commercial stuff so much, please stop running an OSS operating system, and switch to something more "stable" and "reliable" like Windows. I'm sure when you contact Microsoft requesting a bug fix, they'll be very responsive, too! *Snicker*
--"A man's Palm is his best friend."
--"A man's Palm is his best friend."
(IIIx, that is...hehehe)
Hardware accelerated 3d...WHERE ARE YOU NOW SGI?
this will leave SGI in the dust completely. Linux already has it whipped in the 3D market to begin with, offering a more scalable, reliable and secure operating platform to work with. Also the fact that SGI hardware is way overpriced and offers very little performance gains and NO reliability gains to much cheaper Intel equipmnent is paving the way for Linux to blow away the 3d world.
Now with Intel/Linux being the FIRST to have hardware accelerated 3d, SGI has no where to run, nowhere to hide!
Blender/GIMP offer the 3d tools for the GNU generation...
Titanic was rendered on Linux...bottom line is, SGI may have invented OpenGL, but Linux perfected it!
>Blender/GIMP offer the 3d tools for the GNU generation.
Blender isn't GNU. And gimp isn't 3d.
>SGI may have invented OpenGL, but Linux perfected it!
The only thing linux has perfected is idiotic
statments like yours.
Commercial software gives people someone to rightfully bitch to if it doesn't work.
As a rather unsatisfied Xig customer, let me address this comment. Yes, you can "rightfully bitch" to Xig if you aren't happy with their product. I hope it makes you happy to do so, because it won't do much else--the only satisfaction I have ever gotten from Xig about some serious failures of their servers is "Hmm. We may have a fix for that coming up. Watch our ftp site for the next patch, which should be out sometime in the future."
And that's when they're being pleasant. The normal tone of their tech support is rather more caustic ... I'd have to rate it as "grudging". Like they were doing me a favor by fixing their own mistakes. Jeremy Chatfield especially seems to have a chip on his shoulder.
I am now using AccelX 4.1 with my Matrox Millenium II. It has all the latest patches, and it still biffs one or two characters on every page. It's a transient failure--if I repaint the page, different letters are blotted out. Probably why they haven't fixed it yet. So why don't I use XFree? Because the latest version I've tried (3.3.1--old now, admittedly) had even more serious problems. I'd drop AccelX in a heartbeat if those were fixed. Hmm ... maybe I should download the latest and try again!
is there any real reason to buy this? Xfree will have 3d opengl acceleration, right, so I don't see the point.
I've been using AccelX on and off for years now, since before Caldera bundled it with their first product. And here's my analysis of the company, to add a data point to help folks make an informed decision.
Pros:
Cons:
On the other hand, I've never actually gotten a MetroX server to even work, so I cannot even compare their product to the others.
I hope this helps folks in their quest for knowledge.
how do existing X clients make use of the acceleration? Does X11R6.5 (or whatever the next X consoritium "standard" out there is) already specify how the 3D functions are supposed to work and this new server implements it? Or am I all mixed up?
Some times these baby linux weenies get 'right on my tit' (to use a turn of phase common in Yorkshire, England. So a little history lesson is in order for those of narrow vision posessed of flame throwers. The port of X11 to X86 unix that XFree86 is based on was contributed by one Thomas Roell. It supported only the Tseng series chip. 3000 I think. Mr. Roell is boss of XiG. So please don't toast his company, because he provided the first free X servers on Intel UNIX. You owe the lad a debt if you use XFree86. And if you want to look at the XiG product, then you can get a trial license. If you don't like it, ditch it -- but dont flame unless you have tried it. Caveat Emptor. n.
Isn't Xinside the one who started all this DRI stuff for XFree?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Especially considering that some of these things (Enlightenment, for example) are still pre-1.0 versions!!!
You've hit the nail right on the head! I am so sick and tired of installing and try to use any pre-1.0 release of open source software on my Linux box. All it does is crash. In fact, it crashes more times than Windows. These so-called "developers" should be ashamed of themselves for inflicting this trash on us.
Did anybody else notice that a link off the main page mentions anti-aliased fonts as a feature in the "professional" version of the 3D X. It did mention that it was based on hardware compatibility. Does anyone know which of the 30 cards is considered compatible with anti-aliased fonts?
---jeff
Sure it isn't so nice from them, but that's what all commercial compagnies do..
Is that a good reason not to buy their products even if they are good?
Okay, I tried the AX5 demo and I'm using Xfree86 3.3.5 and both suck on my Diamond G460, especially in 24bit mode, but hey, a lot of people are using it happily on their laptops etc..
I take it you're also against others, like 4front's OSS, VMware etc.. Well I tell you this, I rather have payware, than waiting and waiting for things that are suppose to happen.. I would love to get my hands on a commercial product like a DVD player (MpegTV?), with the Cinemaster engine or like VaroDVD running under Linux.( yes I tried Nist, nice, but why don't we have a better MPEG2 player yet? I thought MPEG2 already exist for quite some time, anyway..)
but either way you are a fool.
What's with all these people putting down Xi Graphics' products? Why should I care about their corporate attitude if their products are good? And they are!
Accelerated X is far superior to Xfree86. Yes, I had to pay for it--I would pay for a faster processor on my computer, too. Do you think I should get that for free? I don't mind that it's not open source, because I have no need to modify it. Not once did I modify Xfree86; why should I need Accelerated X to be open source?
As for CDE and Motif, they are excellent; KDE/Qt and GNOME/Gtk are a LONG way off. There is still no better way to go than CDE/Motif. I'm constantly impressed by the excellence in design and engineering of CDE and Motif. KDE/Qt and GNOME/Gtk seem amateurish by comparison.
Let me tell you about my travails with Xig and GLX. Our research group just bought Xi's ~$300 package that promises to allow us to run on an SGI, display on Linux. (Which I couldn't get XFree to do). Well, imagine our surprise when we fire up this expensive boondoggle, and find that we are getting the same error!
Needless to say, I fired off a pretty scathing email to their tech support, to which I got a "we are forwarding this to our head programmer." Somewhere along the way, his reply got lost, but when I finally got it, it was basically a very techincal, "It is the application's fault for not doing OpenGL right."
Well, this maybe true, and I am tracking it down. But I have my doubts about this explaination. It is too convienent... It is like they know I don't have time to fiddle with this...
BTW, I promise to post a nice little ditty about Xig if this all eventually turns out to be the application's fault. But ofr now, I am pissed.
This is particularly funny: Hm. I suppose I HAVE been living in the stone age, with my GLX-supported, 1600x1200x32-bit@85Hz Matrox G200 and Gnome. What I need is MOTIF! And a sharp stick in my eye! Because I'm just not using a Complete Graphical OS!
Well THANK GOD they support Slackware! It uses a DIFFERENT KERNEL after all, and we want to be sure the MS BOB gets ported to it! I love these people! I kiss them!
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Does anyone know what Xi will hope to gain at Comdex? Kind of an odd location to showcase, espcially if they are in the Linux section and are charging a lot of money for something that will be free with XFree 4.0. Also, I heard Linus is speaking at Comdex. Anyone know what his topic is besides the general embracing open source message? I've heard some rumors, but nothing substantial.
I didn't see any qualification in the trailer as to what this was the first hardware 3D X server for.
Hardware accelerated 3D integrated with X has been around for a looooong time - Tektronix, SGI, etc.
As for current standards, OpenGL in X has been supported for 2-3 years by SGI, HP, Sun and countless others.
Are we in danger of becoming as introspective as the boys in Redmond....
I started using Xig products for may laptop, I have almost NEVER had any problems with their product on my laptop... This is a good announcement, now I just need to see sgi port the full Maya package to linux... quit bashing Xig, they make solid servers... and are working to help get real GL boards working on linux...
However... Have you considered the cost of, say, a PlayStation 2 as compared to a CD/DVD drive + a 3D accelerator card + TV output convertor + sound card? Granted the PS2 will not be a good "computer" (integer performance is weak), but it seems to be a wonderful "peripherials package" for one.
Given that a PS2 has plenty of I/O connectors (FireWire is especially interesting), it should be possible to run a (3D accelerated!) X-windows server "game" on it, and access that from the linux box. Likewise it should be possible to access the DVD and sound capabilities from the Linux box as if they were a local device, given appropriate servers running on the PS2 and "device drivers" or clients on the Linux box.
And, best of all, one could still play games and DVDs on the PS2. The combination would be just the thing for finally getting rid of Windows out of my house...
i've seen this talked about earlier but never saw a straight answer. Will Accel-X or even xfree4.0 support window'd rendering for the voodoo banshee/voodoo3?
He's not exactly an evangelist. He's an XiG employee (support engineer I think) who happens to be more interested in the Linux community than the rest of XiG. He has also been very helpful to me in the past.