Right. Each comment is a record of its own. And some bugs are, printed out, as long as 50+ letter pages. A bug with 10 comments is probably average, some have hundreds of them.
Right. But those were *open* bugs, while the 100000 bugs in bugzilla are *all* bugs, incl. closed ones. Open bugs in bugzilla.mozilla.org are about 18000, some of which are not about the Mozilla appsuite (but BugZilla, the website etc.) and some of which are enhancement requests.
But looking at Microsoft, you have to remember that this was a whole operating system, probably including the web browser, the web server and all the other little applications that ship with it. So, those 65000 bugs are not as high as it might first look like.
> Why do you feel you're entitled to go to a website
> but the site can't collect statistics about you?
> What happened to the idea of paying for a service?
Exactly. "Paying", by my understanding, means transferring money, not my privacy. Where is the option to remove all tracking and ads and instead pay money for using slashdot?
There might be a Java applet that drives the logic on the page (accessing DOM, basically using the webpage as dialog), for an web-based application. Basically the Java-equivalent to JavaScript.
> Why don't you just do a apache redirect? Instead
> of dynamically create that page, add an apache
> rule to the httpd.conf to redirect the traffic to
> a static page
That was about the first thing the admins tried. Bugzilla was still unusable. (Don't ask me why.)
> They are programmed by us, so they will be like us
But there are different types of humans. Not all of them are nice. Just like some people program viruses to harm other people or like some people created weapons of mass destruction, some people might program AIs to harm other people as soon as technology is advanced enough.
They *might* not be completely braindead and build in some protections so that this very AI can't cause the death of the human race, but maybe they are just crasy or maybe they have a "bug" in the protections.
Knowing that, some other people will create similarily advanced AIs, but program them with "better" "morals" so that they protect humans and fight evil AIs. That would be like the current "balance of power" between countries or the police within them.
But what, if the evil AI is better? What, if the Police-AI has a bug?
We can only hope that technology never reaches a degree of sophistication that we cannot control it anymore.
Of course. But that bloat would be less than the current bloat (because wrappers are smaller than actual implementations) and the bloat would be caused by teh X apps, not Berlin. Hopefully, Berlin would some day have enough native applications that you don't need X apps anymore. Bloat is gone.
I don't like the excuse "computers are getting faster" for slow programming either. (Not that berlin were inherently slow.) But this:
> That doesn't change the fact the quality of
> programming is shitty
is plainly wrong. Performance is really not the only thing that matters, by far not actually. A nice API, user customizability, lack of wrong assumptions etc. are very important quality criterias, too. That's where Berlin shines. Berlin should run well on displays that have a higher resolution than your schoolbook.
Why do you think does X use network transparency at all, if performance is all that matters? By your measure, X is, in comparison to MS Windows, very poorly designed.
No, wrappers are not very slow and not large either. Or do you see that applications were slowlier for the sole fact that they use gtk-- or Inti and not the plain C-Interface to GTK+?
In case Tobias wasn't clear enough: OpenGL is just an implmentation detail of the server nowadays. In the default implementation actually, there's no OpenGL at all anymore. (I think.) Use DirectX or PDF, if you want. The client (application) won't notice.
This is a Wiki, open to be edited by anyone. Probably an evil spirit added some bad JS code and the used Wiki doesn't protect against JS in content. In any case, it has almost nothing to do with the Berlin developers.
> In other words, Berlin takes the Mac approach of
> taking UI decisions away from app developers.
Yes. What does a user gain, if an app can render a button in a non-standard way? Note that everything will be configurable for the user.
Anyway, the populatity of GTK's themes is for me proof that the user should get more control. And that's the UNIX way (TM), isn't it?
Similar: Who should have the ultimate control (i.e. the last decision) on the web page's layout? The web page designer or the visitor (the user of the browser)? I believe the latter.
You are right: It is a tradeoff. I am just convinced that it's the right one.
> Windows lets you specify lots of things in
> either pixels or inches (or centimeters, maybe
> - I don't remember). As it turns out very few
> applications take advantage of that
Exactly. Why? Because it's easier to arrange for pixels. They usually aren't even aware that their apps will horribly break once the user changes the fonts (ever tried the "Large fonts" setting on MS Windows?). Or if they are aware, they often don't care.
What, do you think, is the lesson of that?
> Maybe I want to free up screen real estate by
> switching to a higher resolution.
You didn't cite the other important part:
| the desktop can be scaled to any size the user
| wants.
Note that this is at any resolution. (Just that you don't want to zoom out so much that a character is only a point on your display:).)
(And you can of course zoom into your drawing then, getting detail there, but still many dialog boxes on the screen.)
The old drivers locked up the machine hard during 3D all the time. Actually, they burned my motherboard (yes, it doesn't boot anymore - all I did was running 3D apps in Linux using the nvidia driver)!
The newest drivers still sometimes lock up the machine hard.
Of course, no problem whatsoever with the open-source "nv" driver (probably because it doesn't use 3D).
> upgrading the power supply did
That might be a reason. I use a 4-years old 250W power supply, IIRC, (beautiful case:-) ) and the mainboard which burned was an older 440BX.
Nevertheless, I didn't have the same problems in Windows 95 (at least, I don't remember them;-) ). And I now don't have them in W2K. Certainly, the mainboard didn't burn under Windows.
So, if it is the power supply, the Linux drivers must push the card much harder than the Windows ones do.
Kudos to you that you are even concerned about that.
But, in my book, that is not lying. All these online-licenses and forms are ridiculous, because they can be faked anytime by anyone.
What, apart from my ideals, stops me from registering katravax at yahoo dot com? Or buying a CD at Amazon as this identity?
Companies are trying too fool us into believing that clicking "Agree" would mean anything. But they are fully aware that the information may, in many cases, not reflect the facts. At least, that's the conclusion I drew when I saw the xth form asking me for the family income and personal tastes and whatever.
When I clicked "Agree", I didn't agree to the mentioned terms. I just clicked on an ordinary link (or button), knowing that this link would bring me to the page I wanted.
Same for the forms. I don't make any statements in these forms, I just fulfill technical requirements to get to the content I need.
I don't know, how judges in your country see this matter. But anybody claiming that the information in company databases, gained though such forms, shall be considered truth unless proved otherwise is IMO a plain fool.
Re:Ok, I have a news flash for you
on
Mozilla 0.9.1 Out
·
· Score: 1
> Most of the people in the world are not
> programmers!
But most of the people have money, even if it's only 30$. If you want a certain bug / feature to be fixed, hire somebody to do it. There are people who do that for Mozilla. Maybe you need to pool your money with fellows, but it can be done. You just need to be willing to spend a few bucks for software.
> I can write programs as they pertian to my work,
> which is to say simple script type programs
> usually less than a thousand lines.
Actually, the Mozilla UI is written exactly like that. Welcome on board *g*.
> Simply acknowledge their suggestion and act on
> it if you want to.
"Thanks for your suggestion". Suggestion->Trashbin.
Would that help you? IMO, it would not even be poilte.
Slashdot Mirror
> I would imagine that a GUI would be especially
> useful for the developers
You want us to use the web frontend. We spend a lot of time in BugZilla. The more dogfood we eat, the better.
> there are several large user comments
Right. Each comment is a record of its own. And some bugs are, printed out, as long as 50+ letter pages. A bug with 10 comments is probably average, some have hundreds of them.
> I think it was actually only around 65535
Right. But those were *open* bugs, while the 100000 bugs in bugzilla are *all* bugs, incl. closed ones. Open bugs in bugzilla.mozilla.org are about 18000, some of which are not about the Mozilla appsuite (but BugZilla, the website etc.) and some of which are enhancement requests.
But looking at Microsoft, you have to remember that this was a whole operating system, probably including the web browser, the web server and all the other little applications that ship with it. So, those 65000 bugs are not as high as it might first look like.
> What's interesting that in the 80s and early 90s
> people were quite happy to learn shortcuts in DOS
> applications
That's wrong, too. People were endlessly annoyed by having to learn this kind of stuff.
> is there any object-oriented hardware around?
Yes. nVIDIA's GeForce.
> Why do you feel you're entitled to go to a website
> but the site can't collect statistics about you?
> What happened to the idea of paying for a service?
Exactly. "Paying", by my understanding, means transferring money, not my privacy. Where is the option to remove all tracking and ads and instead pay money for using slashdot?
> 1x1 applet = bad
Not even that, necessarily.
There might be a Java applet that drives the logic on the page (accessing DOM, basically using the webpage as dialog), for an web-based application. Basically the Java-equivalent to JavaScript.
Right. Better ramdomly kill other servers than putting up with a little wait.
> Why don't you just do a apache redirect? Instead
> of dynamically create that page, add an apache
> rule to the httpd.conf to redirect the traffic to
> a static page
That was about the first thing the admins tried. Bugzilla was still unusable. (Don't ask me why.)
> They are programmed by us, so they will be like us
But there are different types of humans. Not all of them are nice. Just like some people program viruses to harm other people or like some people created weapons of mass destruction, some people might program AIs to harm other people as soon as technology is advanced enough.
They *might* not be completely braindead and build in some protections so that this very AI can't cause the death of the human race, but maybe they are just crasy or maybe they have a "bug" in the protections.
Knowing that, some other people will create similarily advanced AIs, but program them with "better" "morals" so that they protect humans and fight evil AIs. That would be like the current "balance of power" between countries or the police within them.
But what, if the evil AI is better? What, if the Police-AI has a bug?
We can only hope that technology never reaches a degree of sophistication that we cannot control it anymore.
Of course. But that bloat would be less than the current bloat (because wrappers are smaller than actual implementations) and the bloat would be caused by teh X apps, not Berlin. Hopefully, Berlin would some day have enough native applications that you don't need X apps anymore. Bloat is gone.
Mac OS X and NextSTEP come, from the existing windowing systems, closest to Berlin.
But Mac OS X is non-free. Berlin is free software.
> So.. if the entire desktop is transparent.. what
> do you see
Actually, this does make sense (and does work in Berlin, I think - never tried), if you put your desktop on another desktop.
I don't like the excuse "computers are getting faster" for slow programming either. (Not that berlin were inherently slow.) But this:
> That doesn't change the fact the quality of
> programming is shitty
is plainly wrong. Performance is really not the only thing that matters, by far not actually. A nice API, user customizability, lack of wrong assumptions etc. are very important quality criterias, too. That's where Berlin shines. Berlin should run well on displays that have a higher resolution than your schoolbook.
Why do you think does X use network transparency at all, if performance is all that matters? By your measure, X is, in comparison to MS Windows, very poorly designed.
> See ORBit for an example of how to do it properly.
Or omniORB, which is (even) better.
http://people.debian.org/~waldi/berlin/
(When will slashdot escape arrows and & in plaintext?)
> They all generate executables that are tens of
> megabytes: IONA, Visigenics, OOC, TAO, MICO,
> OmniORB.
Please show me the "tens of megabytes": .
No, wrappers are not very slow and not large either. Or do you see that applications were slowlier for the sole fact that they use gtk-- or Inti and not the plain C-Interface to GTK+?
In case Tobias wasn't clear enough: OpenGL is just an implmentation detail of the server nowadays. In the default implementation actually, there's no OpenGL at all anymore. (I think.) Use DirectX or PDF, if you want. The client (application) won't notice.
This is a Wiki, open to be edited by anyone. Probably an evil spirit added some bad JS code and the used Wiki doesn't protect against JS in content. In any case, it has almost nothing to do with the Berlin developers.
> In other words, Berlin takes the Mac approach of
:) .)
> taking UI decisions away from app developers.
Yes. What does a user gain, if an app can render a button in a non-standard way? Note that everything will be configurable for the user.
Anyway, the populatity of GTK's themes is for me proof that the user should get more control. And that's the UNIX way (TM), isn't it?
Similar: Who should have the ultimate control (i.e. the last decision) on the web page's layout? The web page designer or the visitor (the user of the browser)? I believe the latter.
You are right: It is a tradeoff. I am just convinced that it's the right one.
> Windows lets you specify lots of things in
> either pixels or inches (or centimeters, maybe
> - I don't remember). As it turns out very few
> applications take advantage of that
Exactly. Why? Because it's easier to arrange for pixels. They usually aren't even aware that their apps will horribly break once the user changes the fonts (ever tried the "Large fonts" setting on MS Windows?). Or if they are aware, they often don't care.
What, do you think, is the lesson of that?
> Maybe I want to free up screen real estate by
> switching to a higher resolution.
You didn't cite the other important part:
| the desktop can be scaled to any size the user
| wants.
Note that this is at any resolution. (Just that you don't want to zoom out so much that a character is only a point on your display
(And you can of course zoom into your drawing then, getting detail there, but still many dialog boxes on the screen.)
I have the same and worse experiences.
:-) ) and the mainboard which burned was an older 440BX.
;-) ). And I now don't have them in W2K. Certainly, the mainboard didn't burn under Windows.
The old drivers locked up the machine hard during 3D all the time. Actually, they burned my motherboard (yes, it doesn't boot anymore - all I did was running 3D apps in Linux using the nvidia driver)!
The newest drivers still sometimes lock up the machine hard.
Of course, no problem whatsoever with the open-source "nv" driver (probably because it doesn't use 3D).
> upgrading the power supply did
That might be a reason. I use a 4-years old 250W power supply, IIRC, (beautiful case
Nevertheless, I didn't have the same problems in Windows 95 (at least, I don't remember them
So, if it is the power supply, the Linux drivers must push the card much harder than the Windows ones do.
> 60 frames per second divided by .4 (frames per
.4 frames per second, but "four-tenths of a second per frame", i.e. the other way around, which is the 2.5fps you can see in the title.
> second) = 150
Not
If you double that 3.5 times, you have 30 fps, i.e. it will be ~3.5*9 months = ~2.5 years until we have it.
Kudos to you that you are even concerned about that.
But, in my book, that is not lying. All these online-licenses and forms are ridiculous, because they can be faked anytime by anyone.
What, apart from my ideals, stops me from registering katravax at yahoo dot com? Or buying a CD at Amazon as this identity?
Companies are trying too fool us into believing that clicking "Agree" would mean anything. But they are fully aware that the information may, in many cases, not reflect the facts. At least, that's the conclusion I drew when I saw the xth form asking me for the family income and personal tastes and whatever.
When I clicked "Agree", I didn't agree to the mentioned terms. I just clicked on an ordinary link (or button), knowing that this link would bring me to the page I wanted.
Same for the forms. I don't make any statements in these forms, I just fulfill technical requirements to get to the content I need.
I don't know, how judges in your country see this matter. But anybody claiming that the information in company databases, gained though such forms, shall be considered truth unless proved otherwise is IMO a plain fool.
> Most of the people in the world are not
> programmers!
But most of the people have money, even if it's only 30$. If you want a certain bug / feature to be fixed, hire somebody to do it. There are people who do that for Mozilla. Maybe you need to pool your money with fellows, but it can be done. You just need to be willing to spend a few bucks for software.
> I can write programs as they pertian to my work,
> which is to say simple script type programs
> usually less than a thousand lines.
Actually, the Mozilla UI is written exactly like that. Welcome on board *g*.
> Simply acknowledge their suggestion and act on
> it if you want to.
"Thanks for your suggestion". Suggestion->Trashbin.
Would that help you? IMO, it would not even be poilte.