I wish I had time to google it (got to go to a meeting), but there was a study done where the same baby was dressed in blue and a person was asked to come into the room and play with "the child" (no indication of gender was given, except for the clothes)... they started to play very active games, bouncing the kid on their knee, etc.
when they were taken out of the room, the same child would be dressed in pink and they would be asked back in to play with "this child"... they would cuddle, coo, rock them back and forth.
while you may not see a huge difference between bouncing and cooing, it is gendered based on the sex of the child.
ok, seriously... if you can't think of ANY examples of skilled labour that is poorly payed and female dominated then your head is far to deep in the sand for me to dig you out.
Really? I've had more female doctors than male over the years. anecdotal
Only fully qualified and practicing lawyer I know is female. anecdotal
Dunno which academia you're looking at but (outside of CS) it was pretty evenly split in my experience. Even had a variety of female lecturers when I studied chemical engineering for a year. anecdotal
Yeah, I'll let you know what it's like when I get my turn up there. That's not just closed to women you know. learn the definition of glass ceiling.
They aren't dominated by men. Not any more. got any stats to back that up? Doctors are about 85% male, lawyers are about 75% male, Fortune 500 execs are 80% male, tech... well, you RTFA, you know how bad it is.
if that isn't "dominating", I'm sure you can tell me what is.
that's not the problem... it's the ones who ignore the pleaseStopNeverGoingToHappenException that gets tossed back that are the issue, especially after the 4th or 5th time.
the myEyesAreUpHereException and theyDontDoTricksException are other common ones that get ignored.
I'm sure their landlord and bill collectors would disagree with you. There is an abundance of labour because there is an abundance of people who need the money. In theory they could quit and go to a different job... but how do they pay the bills in the mean time? I worked retail before I got my first tech job, they treated us like crap, and constantly told us that if we didn't like it we were more then free to go apply somewhere else. No one did because it could be weeks, or months before we could get a new job and risking that was simply too great. So while in theory they can quit any time, in practice they can't unless they already have another job lined up.
and let's look at the other side of this coin... let's look at high payed professions: Doctors, male... layers, male.. tech field across the board, male... academia, male... pretty much every fortune 500 executive staff, dominated by males.
I challenge you to find a high paying profession (let's say $100k/year) that is dominated by women in the same proportions that the ones I just listed are dominated by men.
your CTO is from marketing? or do you not work in the technical field in the first place?
and anyone who doesn't believe in the glass ceiling is simply blind. Look at the Fortune 500, less then 20% female execs. It is not a matter of IF a woman can reach a level that determines if there is a glass ceiling, but rather if the effort needed in reaching that level is proportional to what men have to put in. A quick google of the definition of "glass ceiling" and I think we can both agree that it is alive and strong in the tech sector.
and it is stuff like this that lets so much sexual harassment slide. "I just have to get used to it" "He doesn't REALLY mean to be a jerk" "Maybe next time he will stop" "No one else is saying anything about it, so it must be just in my head"....
they can be, especially when "being chatted up" has been explained time and time again as not wanted. Sexual harassment does not always require physical contact, it also includes unwanted advances.
not everyone feels comfortable going to senior HR, or lawyers (most often men). Sad to say, but women are taught that we are supposed to expect this kind of treatment, and told to "talk it over with him before we get HR/Legal involved... are you SURE it was sexual harassment? Maybe he was just being friendly?"
honestly, "stop being a creepy jerk" works well. Often women are made to doubt ourselves that what is going on is really wrong (thank you patriarchy for that one) and having someone agree with us that this person is being a jerk will go a long way.
The major gap is between men and women with college education after about 25 um, how many years are there between graduation and turning 25? I graduated at 24, so do I get one year of equal pay before the gap starts to open up?
and what about the glass ceiling? How many female execs are there at your company? how many of them got their through the technical side of things? My last employer had 2 female VPs, of about a dozen... one got there through sales, the other from HR. There had never been a female exec from the technical stream, ever. (and this was neither a small, nor young company)
so if you are a young, heterosexual couple, and one of you needs to stay home with the kids... who makes more sense? The wife who may at best make a good manager... or the husband who has a shot at going FAR beyond that? Even assuming they would both make the same at the same rank (HA!), it makes more sense for the woman to quit as she has far less potential for climbing the ranks = more money is addition to his already higher wage.
which makes for fewer women in high-tech.... vicious cycle.
I mentioned in another thread... it is FAR from all guys doing this... but it really only takes one or two really bad ones, and a dozen who sit back and do nothing to stop it, to really ruin a company/school.
chicken and the egg.... are they traditional female roles because they don't require any specialist knowledge, experience or skills... or are they traditional female roles because they have crappy pay/social stature and thus less attractive to men who can get better jobs and better pay?
given that high school drop-outs are about 50/50 male and female... why are SO many of the minimum wage jobs staffed by women, and the male drop outs move up the ladder to better paying jobs (or start out in better paying jobs right off the bat).
well... yes. Sexual harassment is a huge issue for female students/workers. One girl to a dozen guys, you're going to get hit on, a LOT. Even after I got married, I still got chatted up left and right (don't guys check for rings anymore?) and I really don't like it. It feels like the only reason half my co-workers talk to me is because I'm the only one with tits in the place... not because I'm smart, not because I can code with the best of them, not because I'm funny, or cheerful or anything else.
The "OMFG BOOBS! Let's go talk to them" effect creates a really hostile environment, which causes many of us to change majors/jobs... which makes women even more rare, which makes the next set of boobs even more rare... vicious cycle.
that, and if you look at "traditional" female jobs, they are extremely under-payed, long hours/shift work, and often (if not always) subordinate to a traditional male job.
Slashdot Mirror
I wish I had time to google it (got to go to a meeting), but there was a study done where the same baby was dressed in blue and a person was asked to come into the room and play with "the child" (no indication of gender was given, except for the clothes)... they started to play very active games, bouncing the kid on their knee, etc.
when they were taken out of the room, the same child would be dressed in pink and they would be asked back in to play with "this child"... they would cuddle, coo, rock them back and forth.
while you may not see a huge difference between bouncing and cooing, it is gendered based on the sex of the child.
THANK YOU!
ok, seriously... if you can't think of ANY examples of skilled labour that is poorly payed and female dominated then your head is far to deep in the sand for me to dig you out.
a past profession, that was highly skilled, low payed, and dominated by women.
Really? I've had more female doctors than male over the years.
anecdotal
Only fully qualified and practicing lawyer I know is female.
anecdotal
Dunno which academia you're looking at but (outside of CS) it was pretty evenly split in my experience. Even had a variety of female lecturers when I studied chemical engineering for a year.
anecdotal
Yeah, I'll let you know what it's like when I get my turn up there. That's not just closed to women you know.
learn the definition of glass ceiling.
They aren't dominated by men. Not any more.
got any stats to back that up? Doctors are about 85% male, lawyers are about 75% male, Fortune 500 execs are 80% male, tech... well, you RTFA, you know how bad it is.
if that isn't "dominating", I'm sure you can tell me what is.
that's not the problem... it's the ones who ignore the pleaseStopNeverGoingToHappenException that gets tossed back that are the issue, especially after the 4th or 5th time.
the myEyesAreUpHereException and theyDontDoTricksException are other common ones that get ignored.
Nobody is forcing people to work in these jobs
I'm sure their landlord and bill collectors would disagree with you. There is an abundance of labour because there is an abundance of people who need the money. In theory they could quit and go to a different job... but how do they pay the bills in the mean time? I worked retail before I got my first tech job, they treated us like crap, and constantly told us that if we didn't like it we were more then free to go apply somewhere else. No one did because it could be weeks, or months before we could get a new job and risking that was simply too great. So while in theory they can quit any time, in practice they can't unless they already have another job lined up.
and let's look at the other side of this coin... let's look at high payed professions: Doctors, male... layers, male.. tech field across the board, male... academia, male... pretty much every fortune 500 executive staff, dominated by males.
I challenge you to find a high paying profession (let's say $100k/year) that is dominated by women in the same proportions that the ones I just listed are dominated by men.
examples
your CTO is from marketing? or do you not work in the technical field in the first place?
and anyone who doesn't believe in the glass ceiling is simply blind. Look at the Fortune 500, less then 20% female execs. It is not a matter of IF a woman can reach a level that determines if there is a glass ceiling, but rather if the effort needed in reaching that level is proportional to what men have to put in. A quick google of the definition of "glass ceiling" and I think we can both agree that it is alive and strong in the tech sector.
"work that rayon into a jogging jersey Anna" then?
there are many examples of skilled labor that are still horribly payed, and coincidentally, almost elusively populated by women workers.
ya, I'm sorry about that... I was trying to get the original post ready before going to a meeting :(
it's more a matter of how often their eyes come up in a conversation.
my boobs can do a lot of things... but they can't talk.
and it is stuff like this that lets so much sexual harassment slide. "I just have to get used to it" "He doesn't REALLY mean to be a jerk" "Maybe next time he will stop" "No one else is saying anything about it, so it must be just in my head"....
they can be, especially when "being chatted up" has been explained time and time again as not wanted. Sexual harassment does not always require physical contact, it also includes unwanted advances.
not everyone feels comfortable going to senior HR, or lawyers (most often men). Sad to say, but women are taught that we are supposed to expect this kind of treatment, and told to "talk it over with him before we get HR/Legal involved... are you SURE it was sexual harassment? Maybe he was just being friendly?"
honestly, "stop being a creepy jerk" works well. Often women are made to doubt ourselves that what is going on is really wrong (thank you patriarchy for that one) and having someone agree with us that this person is being a jerk will go a long way.
course, that's just me.
The major gap is between men and women with college education after about 25
um, how many years are there between graduation and turning 25? I graduated at 24, so do I get one year of equal pay before the gap starts to open up?
and what about the glass ceiling? How many female execs are there at your company? how many of them got their through the technical side of things? My last employer had 2 female VPs, of about a dozen... one got there through sales, the other from HR. There had never been a female exec from the technical stream, ever. (and this was neither a small, nor young company)
so if you are a young, heterosexual couple, and one of you needs to stay home with the kids... who makes more sense? The wife who may at best make a good manager... or the husband who has a shot at going FAR beyond that? Even assuming they would both make the same at the same rank (HA!), it makes more sense for the woman to quit as she has far less potential for climbing the ranks = more money is addition to his already higher wage.
which makes for fewer women in high-tech.... vicious cycle.
I mentioned in another thread... it is FAR from all guys doing this... but it really only takes one or two really bad ones, and a dozen who sit back and do nothing to stop it, to really ruin a company/school.
ok, but why would we WANT to filter it down to just the boring horn-dogs? that is kinda the opposite of what we want...
chicken and the egg.... are they traditional female roles because they don't require any specialist knowledge, experience or skills... or are they traditional female roles because they have crappy pay/social stature and thus less attractive to men who can get better jobs and better pay?
given that high school drop-outs are about 50/50 male and female... why are SO many of the minimum wage jobs staffed by women, and the male drop outs move up the ladder to better paying jobs (or start out in better paying jobs right off the bat).
well... yes. Sexual harassment is a huge issue for female students/workers. One girl to a dozen guys, you're going to get hit on, a LOT. Even after I got married, I still got chatted up left and right (don't guys check for rings anymore?) and I really don't like it. It feels like the only reason half my co-workers talk to me is because I'm the only one with tits in the place... not because I'm smart, not because I can code with the best of them, not because I'm funny, or cheerful or anything else.
The "OMFG BOOBS! Let's go talk to them" effect creates a really hostile environment, which causes many of us to change majors/jobs... which makes women even more rare, which makes the next set of boobs even more rare... vicious cycle.
that, and if you look at "traditional" female jobs, they are extremely under-payed, long hours/shift work, and often (if not always) subordinate to a traditional male job.
I remember a certain el presidente who likes to revoke the right to a fair trial to people who are not full-blood citizens... so that's one
not only that she never heard of these kinds of scams.... but that no one who could have talked her out of it before then had either...
I always wanted something like this as well.