So now you want to include the "nation" part into your definition? Granted, most of the time during antiquity states couldn't be classified as nation-states because they almost with out exception were of a homogeneous cultural/ethnic background. However, there were exceptions, with the Persian Empire(s), Chinese, Assyrian, etc. existing. They had borders beyond which lived the "savages" which were generally city states.
Right, because the Greeks weren't upset that the Persians invaded their city states....after all, there were no country boundaries before the industrial revolution.
I'm so sorry, but I'm really tired of people stating that Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam all have the same god. Just as the Jews selectively took ideas from other religions, the Christians did the same from them, and the Muslims from both of the predecessors. To continue to perpetuate the myth would be just as bad as saying that OSX and OpenBSD have the same kernel.
One of the major differences is the afterlife. Jews did not believe in it until they had wide exposure to Zoroastrianism. The Jewish sect that promoted Jesus as a spiritual messiah instead of the secular one promised selectively quoted texts from after Persian occupation to affirm their beliefs. The Muslims, who's founder was part of the clan who bought and cared for the idol "Hubal" in Mecca (interesting fact; homage was payed by circumambulation of the shrine in Mecca and shaving of one's hair before seeing the family) who was the moon god, had another name for their moon god "allah". So while it's convient to claim an association with a former religion to bolster the standing yours, it's not a good idea to claim to follow the formers when you so casually disregard the said former's rules.
Yes, genocide was commited by the Jews. However that was in 1400 BC, when such cleansings were the norm rather than the exception. The premeditated slaughter of Indians, Armenians by Muslims, and the Jews, Gypsies, Poles, etc by Christians has happened in much more recent times.
Also, the numbers involved in the genocide commited by the Jews (not that I'm sanctioning it) are no where the numbers commited by others who claim to share the same god. No numbers are actually known, but displacement was the prefered method, since fighting them to the death is a little counterproductive to starting a new nation in terms of keeping a viable population.
No, those are known in the West as the backpackers, or to Thais derogatorily as "farangs kee nhok". Literally bird shit foreigners. Interesting, since the French were the first Westerners that Thais were exposed to, the mispronunciation of their ethnicity is what term has stuck with all Westerners to this day.
Firstly, I don't know why I'm responding to an anonymous coward.
However, I didn't have to go east to find a wife. I wasn't even planning on getting married. I had my share of girlfriend's in the states. However, I've always been attracted to Asian women. The fact that I ended up here and found her is just a happy co-incidence. I didn't know there was some edict saying you had to marry in your own "race" and country. Your statement smacks of bigotry.
Don't worry about assumptions.....I may have made one or two in lumping ALL woman into the requiring security group. As far as your husband being a mechanic; that's a good profession. I can't speculate on how much money he makes, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with his job if he likes doing it--except for it bothering you of course.
The reason that the younger couldn't have helped the older is that the two sisters are aged 28 and 26. After their parents got a little better financially, they had the two boys, who are currently aged 16 (just turned 2 months ago....had to buy him his first cellular-nicer than mine, but I hate the stupid things), and 11. Unfortunately this age gap prevents anything of the sort you're proposing. I'm currently trying to set up a family business that will employ all of them to allievate the strain, but it's hard going.
Actually, anecdotal evidence, i.e., me sitting at a Starbucks and watching people leaving the local university suggests that the majority of the students are in fact female. I would say a good 65% of them.
Sex shouldn't be about money, but that's what it boils down to all too often. Would most girls rather be with a guy who has money than who doesn't? Wouldn't you? I know it's kinda a crass overgeneralisation, but it's fairly true.
As far as my wife's family sucking......nothing can be further from the truth. The society they live in sucks, no doubt about it. The reason that the older 2 children, who coincidentally are girls, weren't able to get a really good education is due to lack of affordable quality education. It isn't that they didn't want them to, in fact, they take whatever courses they can because they're curious. That's how I was able to meet my wife....she was studying English and wanted to practice it on me. As soon as the boys finish their schooling, they'll go to work and send money to help support the family. Than everyone will have to send less. And since the family is so close knit, if one of the sisters ever needs money, SOMEBODY will come up with it.
It is not a last resort. Rather it's the easiest resort. Had my girlfriend and her sister been so inclined, they could have put away quite a bit of money. But they chose not to do that, rather toil away in the factories and stores. Even if it was a last resort, how is the phenomenon of university students, who by default come from more well to do families, also an issue? As far as it being a last resort, you understand that not everyone shares your distaste for the profession. Some see it as nothing more than a job. You can not support your argument by saying that exceptions notwithstanding than making an ultimatium that excludes those exceptions. That reduces your assertions to a non-defendable debate based on rules defined solely by you.
If a woman chooses to work in this profession, how is that exploitation? There's many cases of the workers not needing the money, but choosing it for the exciting life it brings.
My understanding is that even with the oustanding social programmes in Germany and the Netherlands, there is still quite a large workforce in the prostitution scene. Of course, that could be one of those exceptions not withstanding........
For the exact reason you listed. Demand. Foreigners come here to partake of the trade. I should have qualified my post (I typed for a long time and was too lazy to go back an preview it) by saying those are the earnings of those who service foreigners. Those who work the locals make less. The favourite customers are Japanese. Thai's refer to them as the 3'ers. 3", 3 minutes, 3000 bhat. Some people do attach some stigma too it. The fear of AIDS, unwated pregnancy, etc. is also a deterrant. And a lot of girls only do it to supplment their incomes. Uni girls do it for a new phone for example.
I wasn't around before foreigners started increasing the price of sex. However, I have traveled through Dubai on numerous occasions. My routine usually went like this: First, shower followed by a trip to a barber for a haircut and a proper shave. Than it was off to a coffee shop, where I could get the best Turkish coffee. Next was some real food. Than a bar was hit up. Obviously, all these trips were made in taxis. I don't know if the drivers get a referall fee, but I have yet to ride in one where the man didn't offer to take me to see the ladies. One time I questioned the driver about it. He told me he had been there 7 years, and in the begining, he had to pay something like 50 dirhams for time with a lady. It has now increased to something like 350 dirhams since all the foreigners are going through there. Mostly Americans coming down from Iraq and having full scrotums. Had they not started doing that, would their prices be that high now?
So another person that's wanting to apply their morality on someone else. Sex work is one of the oldest professions. If you'd have a girlfriend, you know that you have to pay. Same thing if you visit a hooker. How many slashdot geeks don't have a girlfriend because they're living in mommy's basement? All woman want security. If they can't provide for it themself, they want to make sure their mate can. Those that practice prostitution, especially in the South East Asian part of our world are just more open about it.
Take for instance my inlaws. Starting with my wife's parents. They are from up country, near Nakhon Sawan, and have, for the area, a successful life. They are farmer, raise cattle, and manufacture wooden goods such as chairs, tables, and doors. Now, even with all this income, due to the economic enviroment they're in, it's not enough. So their two daughters went to Bangkok to find work. I met my wife working in a 7-11, where about 5000 THB($143) a month. Her sister got a job working in a metal factory. She's only making 6000 THB($172) a month. Now, if you figure that rent will cost you around 3000 THB($86) a month (that includes utilities--but don't be expecting to run the air con or have more than a single room and forget about hot water), you're left with 3000 THB($86). Even if you sent NO money home, that leaves you with 100 Bhat($3) a day. Granted, you can take on roomates, but with the aforementioned living conditions, how many can you realistically accomodate? Let's say you take on 1 roomate. That lowers you monthly expenses for the room to 1500 bhat($43), leaving you with 4500 THB($129). So you're now looking at 150 THB($4) a day. Still not much, but if you could live on 100 THB($3) a day, you can send home 1500 THB($43) a month.
Now, they have 2 younger brothers. Both are in school, but they have to pay. The older one's school is 6000 THB($172), and the younger is 3000 THB($86). The family is very much into making this sacrifice because they don't wish for the boys to live the same life that they've been subjected to. So, just for making the payments, the family needs to come up with 9000 THB($257) every month. This doesn't cover room and board for the older one either. Add in costs raised from just living, you can see that money is always tight. The fact that farming is a seasonal income does absolutely nothing to improve their situation. I've been trying to get them to become more reliant on the furniture making portion of their life, possibly paying workers to man their fields, but they're stubborn old people. Add in the constant bill paying, house upkeep, taxes (government has to get their share!).
I've taken over the responsibilty of paying for their educations. This has been a huge financial boon for the family. I was truly appalled at the teaching conditions in their old shool. It was practically rote learning, which I hate with a passion. If you can't teach someone to learn on their own, they aren't learning.
But I digress. Going back to the prostitution business. A girl can work in a bar and make anywhere from 500 THB(14) to 3000 THB($86) a night. Obviously, the more they sling their "goods", the more they make. Not only that, some even end up with sponsors (which I never understood) who pay for them not to continue working. Quite a few of those with sponsors continue working in the bars, so not only do they have a steady income from some foreign sponsor, but continue to make money on an almost daily basis going with customers. Do they need to do this. Obviously not. Does it make more money for family. Assuredly. I wouldn't expect someone who is not of Asian origin to fully understand the ties between family (I'm not Asian, so I can't understand it fully, but I respect it), but the duty that people feel for taking care of their family is real. Everyone takes jobs they wouldn't necessarily agree with, but make more money for them.
The culture also doesn't stigmatise prostitution like most Western one
Wow, your post has a lot of logical fallacies in it.
First to say that the actions of a few condemn the whole is an idea that is propagated by those who can not adequately create coherent thoughts. It's almost childish. I realise that you may not believe that, but there are others out there who paint the world with such a brush. But based on that, should we start rounding up Iraqis off the street and executing them since some of them are jihadists who aren't content with attacking only the foreign invaders, but also Sunnis, Kurds, Sh'ias, Druzis, etc? And what of foreign nationals that the US military finds in Iraq? Since quite a few of them are fighters, and the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them, should they be taken out behind the latrines and shot as spies?
Your thoughts that the force should be segued into a policing action would be nice if the people that were causing problems were natives. However, the US lead coalition was not the last bunch of people to invade their country. With the second wave of invasion, they've brought forms of Islam even more radical that what existed pre-invasion. Most Iraqis don't want these foreign influences interfering with their country any more than they want the US doing it.
Your assertion that we're going around murdering people who approach roadblocks too quickly is quite sad. Quick, how long have we been over there? Yep, 4 years. In 4 years, I'm sure everyone's either heard how to behave around the US military (which most likely offers them quite a bit of latitude compared to the conditions they had to put up with under the Baathist party), or they've read THE FUCKING signs. Every single convoy has them posted on the back of the vehicles in large letters (both Arabic and English). Furthermore, as I said earlier, quite a bit of leeway is allowed them. Case in point. I have a friend who works as a convoy gunner. They're taught how to identify and dissuade people from approaching the convoy. At any rate, he was on patrol one day when a vehicle was approaching the stopped convoy. IIRC, they were dismounting for a toilet break. He followed the ROE perfectly, but at the last minute, squeezed off a single shot (if it escalates, the gunner is supposed to aim for the engine block and than walk their fire across the cabin). This finally got the old man's attention. He veered off the road and my friend saw two little girls' heads pop up looking around. Bet you never heard that did you? But of course, according to your thinking, since people have been killed before at roadblocks, that makes them all bad rather than separating the really bad people from the average joe.
Perhaps I was too hasty in thinking that you were stating he is not forgiving nor lenient on a whole but rather in this specific case. I still assert you're mistaken, especially since in 2005 he stated that he was not above reproach, and most every case I know of he has gone ahead and pardoned the defendee. However, since he does not make the laws, there's not much else he can do.
In regards to his wealth; it's hard to understand why people think to help others you have to be as wealthy/poor as they are. Yes, he's had a lot of good business success, but he also has pumped a lot back into Thailand. What about other luminaries who are generally (perhaps wrongly) championed as protectors of the people. Know how much money Snr. Castro has? Or that the darling of the misguided, Che Guevara, who was pimping a Rolex when he was captured?
The Thai King did not institute this law. It came about due to the general populace's reverence for their monarch. This isn't the few abusing their position, but rather the many asserting their opinion.
It may be better to think of this in terms of the Mohamed cartoons or the Holacoust denial. All the time politicos get slammed in the paper, so it's not a matter of free speech, but rather respect. I don't know why you could expect people to respect your tradition when you won't respect theirs. They're not telling you to not disrespect your political/ruling figures, but to extend respect to theirs.
It's the law. If you don't like it change it. If you can't stop bitching about it. And by the way, it's for UP TO 15 years...not a gaurantee of 15 years.
As far as taboos go, it's not that far out there. Since the head is considered the "holiest" part of the body in Buddhism (in fact, it's almost as bad to touch some people's head as it is to point your feet at them in Thailand, and even going so far as to put the feet next to someone's head is absolutely the worst thing you can do), it's not that much of a stretch to see that the opposite end is the "dirtiest" part. Add in the fact that this area was/is built on agriculture, where all sorts of wastes are used as fertiliser, including human, it becomes even more clear.
I'm not clear about your question in regards to sandals and flip-flops though.
Something I forgot to mention:
You'll notice that most of these instances involve foreigners.
Like that Swiss man? He lived here 10 years, got pissed because he couldn't buy beer on the King's birthday, and you would think knowing better, decided to deface the King's picture on HIS BIRTHDAY. And yet the King pardoned him (although he's now a Personna non Grata).
before there's too many idiots reguritating their nonsensical rhetoric concerning Thailand.
I'm a resident of Thailand, let's get that out of the way right now.
Firstly, all those who insist that the lese majeste laws are there because the majority of Thais would suddenly rise up and start doing what those without respect for anything would do are seriously disillusioned. And/or they've never traveled to Thailand. There's a deep reverence for the King here which arises from all that he has done. The fact that he has mostly remained out of politics has been a bonus, but the attention that he pays to his people weighs significantly in his favour. And the link that another poster put in that suggest that he had a personal dislike for Thaskin, and that is what forced him out of the country is laughable. As anyone who follows the politics knows, the situation had been brewing for quite some time. The fact that Thaskin was guilty of doing exactly what people hate Bush Inc for is conveniently either glossed over or omitted.
And to the inevitable "What do you expect from a country of pedophiles?" comments: There's absolutely nothing of the sort in your country?
I'm here in Thailand, and latency to anything in the US is an absolute killer. I can't even play BF2 it's so bad. I've included a traceroute to our favoutiet website...slashdot!
traceroute to 66.35.250.150 (66.35.250.150), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 * * *
2 ppp-124.120.243.1.revip2.asianet.co.th (124.120.243.1) 66.286 ms 67.060 ms 66.054 ms
3 ppp-210.86.189.71.revip.asianet.co.th (210.86.189.71) 63.658 ms 63.607 ms 81.493 ms
4 10.169.71.1 (10.169.71.1) 82.281 ms 80.316 ms 80.187 ms
5 * * *
6 61-90-133-238.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.133.238) 72.350 ms 61-90-132-86.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.132.86) 71.236 ms 61-90-133-238.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.133.238) 69.281 ms
7 61-90-133-237.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.133.237) 27.271 ms 63.608 ms 100.221 ms
8 61-90-254-89.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.254.89) 102.553 ms 102.423 ms 103.495 ms
9 203-144-144-6.static.asianet.co.th (203.144.144.6) 101.568 ms 100.922 ms 98.558 ms 10 TIG-Net28-1.trueinternetgateway.com (122.144.28.1) 168.946 ms 168.597 ms 165.327 ms 11 TIG-Net26-210.trueinternetgateway.com (122.144.26.210) 401.433 ms 399.596 ms 400.091 ms 12 US-ICR-DC1-26-222.trueinternetgateway.com (122.144.26.222) 396.819 ms 423.391 ms 421.568 ms 13 GigabitEthernet3-0.IG3.PAO1.ALTER.NET (157.130.211.77) 381.657 ms 381.962 ms 337.684 ms 14 0.so-1-2-0.XL2.PAO1.ALTER.NET (152.63.51.138) 271.284 ms 269.688 ms 269.807 ms 15 0.so-5-0-0.XL2.SCL2.ALTER.NET (152.63.57.42) 318.838 ms 318.321 ms 317.285 ms 16 0.so-7-0-0.BR1.SCL2.ALTER.NET (152.63.57.101) 316.262 ms 316.723 ms 315.788 ms 17 cpr2-pos-9-0.sanjoseequinix.savvis.net (208.175.172.169) 282.582 ms 359.365 ms 343.811 ms 18 bhr2-pos-0-0.santaclarasc8.savvis.net (208.173.55.26) 346.265 ms 346.529 ms 345.874 ms 19 csr1-ve241.santaclarasc8.savvis.net (66.35.194.42) 343.856 ms 341.470 ms 340.751 ms 20 66.35.212.174 (66.35.212.174) 342.154 ms 340.613 ms 339.629 ms 21 slashdot.org (66.35.250.150)(H!) 338.583 ms (H!) 337.364 ms (H!) 337.475 ms
I suppose that when Barcelonas come out, we'll have some affordable octal core loving from AMD. It wasn't all that long ago that we'd have had to go with a quad socket intel mobo to get the performance that is now available from those quad Xenons.
BTW, I've always wondered what a really loaded 3,0 GHZ quad core Clovertown loaded up with as much FBDIMMs as possible would produce in the way of heat.
You do make good points, I should have been more concise.
The parallel I was attempting to draw between Prohibition and the proposed censoring bill was that going overboard is practiced by not only the government, but also people. The population elected to have Prohibition, and that idea fell spectacularly on its face. A total ban on censorship is IMHO another idea that would fail. Oh, and in regards to your beer comments, guess you haven't lived in Texas.:P
My comment on Shintoism was not well formed either. I understand that Shintoism is more of a cultural idealolgy than a religous one, but it was definitely turned that way in the lead up to WWII. The institution of emperor worship, the requirement of the population to register at temples etc. are proof of this sidetracking of the religion. The reason I pointed out that the aforemention thinking was attacked is stated in the Postdam Declaration, section 10, and bad pun intended, religously discouraged by McArthur. Furthermore, as I understand it, the Marshall plan did NOT apply to Japan, but merely Europe.
Wow, my first reply and it's civilised! I must remember not to think so poorly about the/. crowd.
I must however take issue with attempts to provide Islam with a sort of shield. That's exactly what is being asked for by asking the public not to shed light on the nefarious side of the religion. While I never said equated all Muslims as bad, as I didn't equate all Christians with good, by remaining silent on the doings of either, you give tactic approval that all parts of their religion, even the old kill and burn parts, are ok. If the burning of the flag is ok, I don't see why we should give the Quran special treatment. There are countries that hold it in esteem, but their overall human rights record isn't quite that high either. As a quick question, you're against the censoring of radical Islamic videos and yet wish to have the people's right to protest by burning books censored?
Your assertion that Muslims are more persecuted is an interesting one, so I took a couple quick searches to see if it had merit. I sampled slashdot, since that's our favourite site, and the results were interesting: Muslim resultsand Christian results According to those figures, Christians are discussed (and based upon the first pages of results, slammed) at a rate of 390% that of Muslims.
I am sure that Muslims do feel disgust over them. However, why aren't they speaking out against them (you being an exception). When ever a Christian attempts to commit an atrocity in the name of their religion, it is quickly lambasted by other followers of the religion. I don't think that I claimed Christians never commited those crimes. However, the tense you used in your reply is telling. It is no longer state sponsored nor is it being preached from the pulpit. The differnece between Pat Robertson, a confirmed lunatic, telling his parishoners something and the government telling their citizens something should be self evident.
You hit the nail on the head with the fact that the practices of the majority defines something. So why isn't there an outcry from the Muslim community for the acts commited in their name? Why was nothing done about Al-Zaqari until he attacked other Muslims. Are non Muslims to believe that it is believed by Muslims permissable to kill non Mulsims but not kill believers?
It's interesting that Muslims are quick to say that they don't want instructions from America, but they're willing to dish it out. It's interesting that the Islamic world condemned the WTC bombings, but there was nary a peep about the Madrid nor the London bombings. Could possibly the fear of an attack by the US have prompted that? I'm not sure.
Your attempt at obfuscation in regards to the pope can be disproven with one example: Maghame Rahbari or as we call it "Ayatollah". Granted he isn't the voice of all Islam, nor is the pope the voice of all Christianity.
I wasn't making an assumption about the intelligence nor the spiritual enlightenment of Muslims. They think they have found it in a god called Allah. Buddhist would disagree, as would Shiks, atheists, etc. Also interesting is your attempt to lump me into a group that would include "neocons". Way to attempt to create a strawman. Nor am I suggesting a colonial approach. The US didn't do that
Slashdot Mirror
So now you want to include the "nation" part into your definition? Granted, most of the time during antiquity states couldn't be classified as nation-states because they almost with out exception were of a homogeneous cultural/ethnic background. However, there were exceptions, with the Persian Empire(s), Chinese, Assyrian, etc. existing. They had borders beyond which lived the "savages" which were generally city states.
Right, because the Greeks weren't upset that the Persians invaded their city states....after all, there were no country boundaries before the industrial revolution.
I'm so sorry, but I'm really tired of people stating that Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam all have the same god. Just as the Jews selectively took ideas from other religions, the Christians did the same from them, and the Muslims from both of the predecessors. To continue to perpetuate the myth would be just as bad as saying that OSX and OpenBSD have the same kernel.
One of the major differences is the afterlife. Jews did not believe in it until they had wide exposure to Zoroastrianism. The Jewish sect that promoted Jesus as a spiritual messiah instead of the secular one promised selectively quoted texts from after Persian occupation to affirm their beliefs. The Muslims, who's founder was part of the clan who bought and cared for the idol "Hubal" in Mecca (interesting fact; homage was payed by circumambulation of the shrine in Mecca and shaving of one's hair before seeing the family) who was the moon god, had another name for their moon god "allah". So while it's convient to claim an association with a former religion to bolster the standing yours, it's not a good idea to claim to follow the formers when you so casually disregard the said former's rules.
Yes, genocide was commited by the Jews. However that was in 1400 BC, when such cleansings were the norm rather than the exception. The premeditated slaughter of Indians, Armenians by Muslims, and the Jews, Gypsies, Poles, etc by Christians has happened in much more recent times.
Also, the numbers involved in the genocide commited by the Jews (not that I'm sanctioning it) are no where the numbers commited by others who claim to share the same god. No numbers are actually known, but displacement was the prefered method, since fighting them to the death is a little counterproductive to starting a new nation in terms of keeping a viable population.
I would think that using "The Guardian" to disprove "The Daily Mail" is a bit like using "Little Green Footballs" to disprove/discredit "Daily Kos".
No, those are known in the West as the backpackers, or to Thais derogatorily as "farangs kee nhok". Literally bird shit foreigners. Interesting, since the French were the first Westerners that Thais were exposed to, the mispronunciation of their ethnicity is what term has stuck with all Westerners to this day.
Firstly, I don't know why I'm responding to an anonymous coward.
However, I didn't have to go east to find a wife. I wasn't even planning on getting married. I had my share of girlfriend's in the states. However, I've always been attracted to Asian women. The fact that I ended up here and found her is just a happy co-incidence. I didn't know there was some edict saying you had to marry in your own "race" and country. Your statement smacks of bigotry.
Don't worry about assumptions.....I may have made one or two in lumping ALL woman into the requiring security group. As far as your husband being a mechanic; that's a good profession. I can't speculate on how much money he makes, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with his job if he likes doing it--except for it bothering you of course.
The reason that the younger couldn't have helped the older is that the two sisters are aged 28 and 26. After their parents got a little better financially, they had the two boys, who are currently aged 16 (just turned 2 months ago....had to buy him his first cellular-nicer than mine, but I hate the stupid things), and 11. Unfortunately this age gap prevents anything of the sort you're proposing. I'm currently trying to set up a family business that will employ all of them to allievate the strain, but it's hard going.
Actually, anecdotal evidence, i.e., me sitting at a Starbucks and watching people leaving the local university suggests that the majority of the students are in fact female. I would say a good 65% of them.
Sex shouldn't be about money, but that's what it boils down to all too often. Would most girls rather be with a guy who has money than who doesn't? Wouldn't you? I know it's kinda a crass overgeneralisation, but it's fairly true.
As far as my wife's family sucking......nothing can be further from the truth. The society they live in sucks, no doubt about it. The reason that the older 2 children, who coincidentally are girls, weren't able to get a really good education is due to lack of affordable quality education. It isn't that they didn't want them to, in fact, they take whatever courses they can because they're curious. That's how I was able to meet my wife....she was studying English and wanted to practice it on me. As soon as the boys finish their schooling, they'll go to work and send money to help support the family. Than everyone will have to send less. And since the family is so close knit, if one of the sisters ever needs money, SOMEBODY will come up with it.
It is not a last resort. Rather it's the easiest resort. Had my girlfriend and her sister been so inclined, they could have put away quite a bit of money. But they chose not to do that, rather toil away in the factories and stores. Even if it was a last resort, how is the phenomenon of university students, who by default come from more well to do families, also an issue? As far as it being a last resort, you understand that not everyone shares your distaste for the profession. Some see it as nothing more than a job. You can not support your argument by saying that exceptions notwithstanding than making an ultimatium that excludes those exceptions. That reduces your assertions to a non-defendable debate based on rules defined solely by you.
If a woman chooses to work in this profession, how is that exploitation? There's many cases of the workers not needing the money, but choosing it for the exciting life it brings.
My understanding is that even with the oustanding social programmes in Germany and the Netherlands, there is still quite a large workforce in the prostitution scene. Of course, that could be one of those exceptions not withstanding........
For the exact reason you listed. Demand. Foreigners come here to partake of the trade. I should have qualified my post (I typed for a long time and was too lazy to go back an preview it) by saying those are the earnings of those who service foreigners. Those who work the locals make less. The favourite customers are Japanese. Thai's refer to them as the 3'ers. 3", 3 minutes, 3000 bhat. Some people do attach some stigma too it. The fear of AIDS, unwated pregnancy, etc. is also a deterrant. And a lot of girls only do it to supplment their incomes. Uni girls do it for a new phone for example.
I wasn't around before foreigners started increasing the price of sex. However, I have traveled through Dubai on numerous occasions. My routine usually went like this: First, shower followed by a trip to a barber for a haircut and a proper shave. Than it was off to a coffee shop, where I could get the best Turkish coffee. Next was some real food. Than a bar was hit up. Obviously, all these trips were made in taxis. I don't know if the drivers get a referall fee, but I have yet to ride in one where the man didn't offer to take me to see the ladies. One time I questioned the driver about it. He told me he had been there 7 years, and in the begining, he had to pay something like 50 dirhams for time with a lady. It has now increased to something like 350 dirhams since all the foreigners are going through there. Mostly Americans coming down from Iraq and having full scrotums. Had they not started doing that, would their prices be that high now?
So another person that's wanting to apply their morality on someone else. Sex work is one of the oldest professions. If you'd have a girlfriend, you know that you have to pay. Same thing if you visit a hooker. How many slashdot geeks don't have a girlfriend because they're living in mommy's basement? All woman want security. If they can't provide for it themself, they want to make sure their mate can. Those that practice prostitution, especially in the South East Asian part of our world are just more open about it.
Take for instance my inlaws. Starting with my wife's parents. They are from up country, near Nakhon Sawan, and have, for the area, a successful life. They are farmer, raise cattle, and manufacture wooden goods such as chairs, tables, and doors. Now, even with all this income, due to the economic enviroment they're in, it's not enough. So their two daughters went to Bangkok to find work. I met my wife working in a 7-11, where about 5000 THB($143) a month. Her sister got a job working in a metal factory. She's only making 6000 THB($172) a month. Now, if you figure that rent will cost you around 3000 THB($86) a month (that includes utilities--but don't be expecting to run the air con or have more than a single room and forget about hot water), you're left with 3000 THB($86). Even if you sent NO money home, that leaves you with 100 Bhat($3) a day. Granted, you can take on roomates, but with the aforementioned living conditions, how many can you realistically accomodate? Let's say you take on 1 roomate. That lowers you monthly expenses for the room to 1500 bhat($43), leaving you with 4500 THB($129). So you're now looking at 150 THB($4) a day. Still not much, but if you could live on 100 THB($3) a day, you can send home 1500 THB($43) a month.
Now, they have 2 younger brothers. Both are in school, but they have to pay. The older one's school is 6000 THB($172), and the younger is 3000 THB($86). The family is very much into making this sacrifice because they don't wish for the boys to live the same life that they've been subjected to. So, just for making the payments, the family needs to come up with 9000 THB($257) every month. This doesn't cover room and board for the older one either. Add in costs raised from just living, you can see that money is always tight. The fact that farming is a seasonal income does absolutely nothing to improve their situation. I've been trying to get them to become more reliant on the furniture making portion of their life, possibly paying workers to man their fields, but they're stubborn old people. Add in the constant bill paying, house upkeep, taxes (government has to get their share!).
I've taken over the responsibilty of paying for their educations. This has been a huge financial boon for the family. I was truly appalled at the teaching conditions in their old shool. It was practically rote learning, which I hate with a passion. If you can't teach someone to learn on their own, they aren't learning.
But I digress. Going back to the prostitution business. A girl can work in a bar and make anywhere from 500 THB(14) to 3000 THB($86) a night. Obviously, the more they sling their "goods", the more they make. Not only that, some even end up with sponsors (which I never understood) who pay for them not to continue working. Quite a few of those with sponsors continue working in the bars, so not only do they have a steady income from some foreign sponsor, but continue to make money on an almost daily basis going with customers. Do they need to do this. Obviously not. Does it make more money for family. Assuredly. I wouldn't expect someone who is not of Asian origin to fully understand the ties between family (I'm not Asian, so I can't understand it fully, but I respect it), but the duty that people feel for taking care of their family is real. Everyone takes jobs they wouldn't necessarily agree with, but make more money for them.
The culture also doesn't stigmatise prostitution like most Western one
Wow, your post has a lot of logical fallacies in it.
First to say that the actions of a few condemn the whole is an idea that is propagated by those who can not adequately create coherent thoughts. It's almost childish. I realise that you may not believe that, but there are others out there who paint the world with such a brush. But based on that, should we start rounding up Iraqis off the street and executing them since some of them are jihadists who aren't content with attacking only the foreign invaders, but also Sunnis, Kurds, Sh'ias, Druzis, etc? And what of foreign nationals that the US military finds in Iraq? Since quite a few of them are fighters, and the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them, should they be taken out behind the latrines and shot as spies?
Your thoughts that the force should be segued into a policing action would be nice if the people that were causing problems were natives. However, the US lead coalition was not the last bunch of people to invade their country. With the second wave of invasion, they've brought forms of Islam even more radical that what existed pre-invasion. Most Iraqis don't want these foreign influences interfering with their country any more than they want the US doing it.
Your assertion that we're going around murdering people who approach roadblocks too quickly is quite sad. Quick, how long have we been over there? Yep, 4 years. In 4 years, I'm sure everyone's either heard how to behave around the US military (which most likely offers them quite a bit of latitude compared to the conditions they had to put up with under the Baathist party), or they've read THE FUCKING signs. Every single convoy has them posted on the back of the vehicles in large letters (both Arabic and English). Furthermore, as I said earlier, quite a bit of leeway is allowed them. Case in point. I have a friend who works as a convoy gunner. They're taught how to identify and dissuade people from approaching the convoy. At any rate, he was on patrol one day when a vehicle was approaching the stopped convoy. IIRC, they were dismounting for a toilet break. He followed the ROE perfectly, but at the last minute, squeezed off a single shot (if it escalates, the gunner is supposed to aim for the engine block and than walk their fire across the cabin). This finally got the old man's attention. He veered off the road and my friend saw two little girls' heads pop up looking around. Bet you never heard that did you? But of course, according to your thinking, since people have been killed before at roadblocks, that makes them all bad rather than separating the really bad people from the average joe.
Guess you missed that ;p
Thank Buddha for proxy servers though!
Perhaps I was too hasty in thinking that you were stating he is not forgiving nor lenient on a whole but rather in this specific case. I still assert you're mistaken, especially since in 2005 he stated that he was not above reproach, and most every case I know of he has gone ahead and pardoned the defendee. However, since he does not make the laws, there's not much else he can do.
In regards to his wealth; it's hard to understand why people think to help others you have to be as wealthy/poor as they are. Yes, he's had a lot of good business success, but he also has pumped a lot back into Thailand. What about other luminaries who are generally (perhaps wrongly) championed as protectors of the people. Know how much money Snr. Castro has? Or that the darling of the misguided, Che Guevara, who was pimping a Rolex when he was captured?
/me sighs.
Ok, everyone repeat after me:
The Thai King did not institute this law. It came about due to the general populace's reverence for their monarch. This isn't the few abusing their position, but rather the many asserting their opinion.
The reason I didn't comment on whether the law was just or not is because I wasn't asked. Furthermore, I can not change it, so I have to live with it. However it's still better than some other countries' sentences for similar crimes.
The minimum sentence is only 1 1/2 year. You may say it's too much, but the Thai people have declared it, and it is their country.
You say that he's neither lenient nor forgiving....can you give examples of this? Because I can give more than enough examples of his compassion--even though their math is wrong, they're missing a 0, in addition to making sure his people have food.. And remember, it isn't the King who's calling for this but rather Naai Vissanu Meeyo.
It may be better to think of this in terms of the Mohamed cartoons or the Holacoust denial. All the time politicos get slammed in the paper, so it's not a matter of free speech, but rather respect. I don't know why you could expect people to respect your tradition when you won't respect theirs. They're not telling you to not disrespect your political/ruling figures, but to extend respect to theirs.
It's the law. If you don't like it change it. If you can't stop bitching about it. And by the way, it's for UP TO 15 years...not a gaurantee of 15 years.
The very first post contradicts your assertion that nobody else mentioned it.
As far as taboos go, it's not that far out there. Since the head is considered the "holiest" part of the body in Buddhism (in fact, it's almost as bad to touch some people's head as it is to point your feet at them in Thailand, and even going so far as to put the feet next to someone's head is absolutely the worst thing you can do), it's not that much of a stretch to see that the opposite end is the "dirtiest" part. Add in the fact that this area was/is built on agriculture, where all sorts of wastes are used as fertiliser, including human, it becomes even more clear. I'm not clear about your question in regards to sandals and flip-flops though.
Something I forgot to mention: You'll notice that most of these instances involve foreigners. Like that Swiss man? He lived here 10 years, got pissed because he couldn't buy beer on the King's birthday, and you would think knowing better, decided to deface the King's picture on HIS BIRTHDAY. And yet the King pardoned him (although he's now a Personna non Grata).
And you're a slashdotter.....should you be able to stand me coming over and shitting in your mouth? To Thais, it's the same level of disrespect.
before there's too many idiots reguritating their nonsensical rhetoric concerning Thailand.
I'm a resident of Thailand, let's get that out of the way right now.
Firstly, all those who insist that the lese majeste laws are there because the majority of Thais would suddenly rise up and start doing what those without respect for anything would do are seriously disillusioned. And/or they've never traveled to Thailand. There's a deep reverence for the King here which arises from all that he has done. The fact that he has mostly remained out of politics has been a bonus, but the attention that he pays to his people weighs significantly in his favour. And the link that another poster put in that suggest that he had a personal dislike for Thaskin, and that is what forced him out of the country is laughable. As anyone who follows the politics knows, the situation had been brewing for quite some time. The fact that Thaskin was guilty of doing exactly what people hate Bush Inc for is conveniently either glossed over or omitted.
And to the inevitable "What do you expect from a country of pedophiles?" comments: There's absolutely nothing of the sort in your country?
I'm here in Thailand, and latency to anything in the US is an absolute killer. I can't even play BF2 it's so bad. I've included a traceroute to our favoutiet website...slashdot!
traceroute to 66.35.250.150 (66.35.250.150), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 * * *
2 ppp-124.120.243.1.revip2.asianet.co.th (124.120.243.1) 66.286 ms 67.060 ms 66.054 ms
3 ppp-210.86.189.71.revip.asianet.co.th (210.86.189.71) 63.658 ms 63.607 ms 81.493 ms
4 10.169.71.1 (10.169.71.1) 82.281 ms 80.316 ms 80.187 ms
5 * * *
6 61-90-133-238.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.133.238) 72.350 ms 61-90-132-86.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.132.86) 71.236 ms 61-90-133-238.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.133.238) 69.281 ms
7 61-90-133-237.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.133.237) 27.271 ms 63.608 ms 100.221 ms
8 61-90-254-89.static.asianet.co.th (61.90.254.89) 102.553 ms 102.423 ms 103.495 ms
9 203-144-144-6.static.asianet.co.th (203.144.144.6) 101.568 ms 100.922 ms 98.558 ms
10 TIG-Net28-1.trueinternetgateway.com (122.144.28.1) 168.946 ms 168.597 ms 165.327 ms
11 TIG-Net26-210.trueinternetgateway.com (122.144.26.210) 401.433 ms 399.596 ms 400.091 ms
12 US-ICR-DC1-26-222.trueinternetgateway.com (122.144.26.222) 396.819 ms 423.391 ms 421.568 ms
13 GigabitEthernet3-0.IG3.PAO1.ALTER.NET (157.130.211.77) 381.657 ms 381.962 ms 337.684 ms
14 0.so-1-2-0.XL2.PAO1.ALTER.NET (152.63.51.138) 271.284 ms 269.688 ms 269.807 ms
15 0.so-5-0-0.XL2.SCL2.ALTER.NET (152.63.57.42) 318.838 ms 318.321 ms 317.285 ms
16 0.so-7-0-0.BR1.SCL2.ALTER.NET (152.63.57.101) 316.262 ms 316.723 ms 315.788 ms
17 cpr2-pos-9-0.sanjoseequinix.savvis.net (208.175.172.169) 282.582 ms 359.365 ms 343.811 ms
18 bhr2-pos-0-0.santaclarasc8.savvis.net (208.173.55.26) 346.265 ms 346.529 ms 345.874 ms
19 csr1-ve241.santaclarasc8.savvis.net (66.35.194.42) 343.856 ms 341.470 ms 340.751 ms
20 66.35.212.174 (66.35.212.174) 342.154 ms 340.613 ms 339.629 ms
21 slashdot.org (66.35.250.150)(H!) 338.583 ms (H!) 337.364 ms (H!) 337.475 ms
I suppose that when Barcelonas come out, we'll have some affordable octal core loving from AMD. It wasn't all that long ago that we'd have had to go with a quad socket intel mobo to get the performance that is now available from those quad Xenons.
BTW, I've always wondered what a really loaded 3,0 GHZ quad core Clovertown loaded up with as much FBDIMMs as possible would produce in the way of heat.
You do make good points, I should have been more concise.
:P
The parallel I was attempting to draw between Prohibition and the proposed censoring bill was that going overboard is practiced by not only the government, but also people. The population elected to have Prohibition, and that idea fell spectacularly on its face. A total ban on censorship is IMHO another idea that would fail. Oh, and in regards to your beer comments, guess you haven't lived in Texas.
My comment on Shintoism was not well formed either. I understand that Shintoism is more of a cultural idealolgy than a religous one, but it was definitely turned that way in the lead up to WWII. The institution of emperor worship, the requirement of the population to register at temples etc. are proof of this sidetracking of the religion. The reason I pointed out that the aforemention thinking was attacked is stated in the Postdam Declaration, section 10, and bad pun intended, religously discouraged by McArthur. Furthermore, as I understand it, the Marshall plan did NOT apply to Japan, but merely Europe.
Wow, my first reply and it's civilised! I must remember not to think so poorly about the /. crowd.
I must however take issue with attempts to provide Islam with a sort of shield. That's exactly what is being asked for by asking the public not to shed light on the nefarious side of the religion. While I never said equated all Muslims as bad, as I didn't equate all Christians with good, by remaining silent on the doings of either, you give tactic approval that all parts of their religion, even the old kill and burn parts, are ok. If the burning of the flag is ok, I don't see why we should give the Quran special treatment. There are countries that hold it in esteem, but their overall human rights record isn't quite that high either. As a quick question, you're against the censoring of radical Islamic videos and yet wish to have the people's right to protest by burning books censored?
Your assertion that Muslims are more persecuted is an interesting one, so I took a couple quick searches to see if it had merit. I sampled slashdot, since that's our favourite site, and the results were interesting: Muslim results and Christian results According to those figures, Christians are discussed (and based upon the first pages of results, slammed) at a rate of 390% that of Muslims.
I am sure that Muslims do feel disgust over them. However, why aren't they speaking out against them (you being an exception). When ever a Christian attempts to commit an atrocity in the name of their religion, it is quickly lambasted by other followers of the religion. I don't think that I claimed Christians never commited those crimes. However, the tense you used in your reply is telling. It is no longer state sponsored nor is it being preached from the pulpit. The differnece between Pat Robertson, a confirmed lunatic, telling his parishoners something and the government telling their citizens something should be self evident.
You hit the nail on the head with the fact that the practices of the majority defines something. So why isn't there an outcry from the Muslim community for the acts commited in their name? Why was nothing done about Al-Zaqari until he attacked other Muslims. Are non Muslims to believe that it is believed by Muslims permissable to kill non Mulsims but not kill believers?
It's interesting that Muslims are quick to say that they don't want instructions from America, but they're willing to dish it out. It's interesting that the Islamic world condemned the WTC bombings, but there was nary a peep about the Madrid nor the London bombings. Could possibly the fear of an attack by the US have prompted that? I'm not sure.
Your attempt at obfuscation in regards to the pope can be disproven with one example: Maghame Rahbari or as we call it "Ayatollah". Granted he isn't the voice of all Islam, nor is the pope the voice of all Christianity.
I wasn't making an assumption about the intelligence nor the spiritual enlightenment of Muslims. They think they have found it in a god called Allah. Buddhist would disagree, as would Shiks, atheists, etc. Also interesting is your attempt to lump me into a group that would include "neocons". Way to attempt to create a strawman. Nor am I suggesting a colonial approach. The US didn't do that