Don't bitch about HP too much... I had the "joy" of installing an office full of Xerox "network ready" printers...
Not a single one of them was plug-n-play like an HP with a JetDirect. I had to get a Freeware utility that emulates the LPD service on a Windows machine to communicate with them. Of course, this had to be installed on EVERY Windows machine, and NOWHERE did it say this was necessary in the documentation or on the Web site. The software wasn't even from Xerox.
Bah. Curse 'em or not, I stick by HP in general... But as for using Linux to create a print server and then blatantly NOT support LPD... That's really just... Wrong. Sorry, but based on that alone (that it doesn't support LPD) I would not buy this product. But you do have to look at who it's targeted at.
Hmmm, okay... For some reason it "felt" like you were moving away from the Python-based tools and moving to either curses-based or other tools - like Linuxconf, etc.
True, you could... I'm thinking of beginning programmers - or again, coming in at a later point to code that's not documented, written poorly or whatever.
Maybe I'm a bigger fan of strong type casting than I imagine myself to be... Egads!;>
That was a pretty nice (and convincing) reply as to the merits of Python!:)
I must admit, I'd be a little worried about it's ability to change type casts on the fly like that, and not have an identifying character as to it's type (but then C doesn't have this either) - I can certainly see it's potential for rapid development. Even Perl, as terse as it is - can be a pain in the butt sometimes, just like C can be at the other extreme at how strict it is.
It's basically all a matter of what you need your language to do! Use it for what it was designed for and you won't have any problems.
It certainly looks like Python has a lot of nice features... I'll give it a peek! Thanks.
Ken - right, I'm aware of the GTK bindings for Python, among other languages...
What I was wondering was if they were moving away from the purely Python-based tools to others for any specific reason, especially if it was to be a C and GNOME/GTK move...
Thanks for the clarification - makes total sense. I know there's been a lot of work on Linuxconf and others such as the Debian (?) tool.
As for "...the belief that the strengths of various languages make them better suited for some tasks and lesser suieted for others..." I couldn't agree more - I firmly believe in "use what works."
I agree with you on the Web stuff - but I was thinking more along the lines of say, system administration scripts or things along that nature. Those types of scripts don't necessarily change that much over time, but might need tweaks as new features or OS changes force you to.
As for the Website lifespan though, I must add an air of caution - while the look-n-feel of your site might change, the logic and/or code behind it might not.
Also, if you're throwing out and re-writing all of your code that often - something might be wrong. I personally write my code to be as re-usable as possible and try never to re-write anything, unless absolutely necessary!
"...it comes in handy when you need to do some quick calculations and bc or dc seem to be too much bother."
Hmmm. With "bc" don't you just type in "1+1?";>
But I hear ya - that's what I like about Perl/{Tk,GTK} as well - the ability to rapidly work up GUIs and the logic behind it.
Unfortunately - that's what I also don't like about it... Writing GUI apps in a non-event- driven language/setting is just whack. Being interpreted also tends to make larger apps painfully slow. But then in reality, if this is what you're writing, chances are you wouldn't be doing it in Perl or Python!
So how come Red Hat is moving away from Python? Remember all their tools are written in Python - things like the control panel, netcfg, printtool, etc.
Is it that they want to standardize more on C/GTK/GNOME or did Python not meet their needs?
There are a LOT of languages out there - many suited to a particular application. If one doesn't suit you - use another, if possible.
Although I certainly agree with you - forced coding styles are kinda slack, but do enforce a standard and might make debugging or maintaining someone else's code a LOT easier!
"...I know I spent several months on the back-end mod_perl that would handle just the proto-type testing. The C code came after I left..."
So wait... They're bitching about us hacking a driver for it, when they themselves use Open Source tools like Apache and mod_perl? Hmmm, that's like biting the hand that feeds you, no?
I'm talking about the software aspect - you know, what this ENTIRE Slashdot story is about.
Get that in your head, or shut your piehole.
We're not stealing their product. It's free. What we choose to do with it, is really quite up to us. If they don't like it, then charge for it. But even then, we reserve the right to hack it.
Quite honestly, I could care less about the marketing and distribution - that means nothing in this discussion.
I'm talking about the software part of it - which is what this entire topic of discussion is about.
Like many people have said here - if I buy a product, you can be damned skippy that I'm gonna rip it apart to see what makes it tick if I'm so inclined. Now, releasing the software is another issue - but why shouldn't I share the fruits of my labor? It's just the same as if ten people all developed the same driver/workaround/hack and worked independantly.
The fact is, we're not here to steal their product. We're not releasing intellectual property (show me a patent, otherwise, get lost). We simply figured out how to make something work.
God forbid anyone should take away coverage or ownership of information about the Olympics from the lovely NBC/Microsoft bunch of WNBC, MSNBC and CNBC.
Scumbags! Let the athletes have a diary if they want. Whose thoughts are they anyway? Certainly not YOURS. What'd ya make 'em sign an NDA? Argh.
Like the Olympic committee should really talk, considering the recent (and repetitive) issues with Utah.
The Olympics, IMO - are becoming a farce. It's less and less about the competition and the athletes and more about airtime, commercial value and sponsorship. You can see this just by watching the lousy coverage that we as Americans get... You only see an event if an American either won, or is "high profile."
Slashdot Mirror
Not a single one of them was plug-n-play like an HP with a JetDirect. I had to get a Freeware utility that emulates the LPD service on a Windows machine to communicate with them. Of course, this had to be installed on EVERY Windows machine, and NOWHERE did it say this was necessary in the documentation or on the Web site. The software wasn't even from Xerox.
Bah. Curse 'em or not, I stick by HP in general... But as for using Linux to create a print server and then blatantly NOT support LPD... That's really just... Wrong. Sorry, but based on that alone (that it doesn't support LPD) I would not buy this product. But you do have to look at who it's targeted at.
Why should the universities be taking care of the FBI's dirty laundry?
Oh wait, you said "Ethernet..."
Well, he probably invented that, too! ;>
Hmmm, okay... For some reason it "felt" like you were moving away from the Python-based tools and moving to either curses-based or other tools - like Linuxconf, etc.
Maybe I'm a bigger fan of strong type casting than I imagine myself to be... Egads! ;>
What's next? You can only tape a limited amount from the radio? The FREE radiowaves that permeate the air all around us?
Enough is enough already!
"Trinity." Too funny. The same name given to the first US nuclear bomb project. ;>
I must admit, I'd be a little worried about it's ability to change type casts on the fly like that, and not have an identifying character as to it's type (but then C doesn't have this either) - I can certainly see it's potential for rapid development. Even Perl, as terse as it is - can be a pain in the butt sometimes, just like C can be at the other extreme at how strict it is.
It's basically all a matter of what you need your language to do! Use it for what it was designed for and you won't have any problems.
It certainly looks like Python has a lot of nice features... I'll give it a peek! Thanks.
What I was wondering was if they were moving away from the purely Python-based tools to others for any specific reason, especially if it was to be a C and GNOME/GTK move...
Thanks for the clarification - makes total sense. I know there's been a lot of work on Linuxconf and others such as the Debian (?) tool.
As for "...the belief that the strengths of various languages make them better suited for some tasks and lesser suieted for others..." I couldn't agree more - I firmly believe in "use what works."
A quick scan found the necessary "cuecatd.pl" script and I'm now on my way...
Thanks, Digital Convergence!
As for the Website lifespan though, I must add an air of caution - while the look-n-feel of your site might change, the logic and/or code behind it might not.
Also, if you're throwing out and re-writing all of your code that often - something might be wrong. I personally write my code to be as re-usable as possible and try never to re-write anything, unless absolutely necessary!
Does "...is really just an academic toy..." apply to Pascal as well? ;>
Hmmm. With "bc" don't you just type in "1+1?" ;>
But I hear ya - that's what I like about Perl/{Tk,GTK} as well - the ability to rapidly work up GUIs and the logic behind it.
Unfortunately - that's what I also don't like about it... Writing GUI apps in a non-event- driven language/setting is just whack. Being interpreted also tends to make larger apps painfully slow. But then in reality, if this is what you're writing, chances are you wouldn't be doing it in Perl or Python!
Is it that they want to standardize more on C/GTK/GNOME or did Python not meet their needs?
Although I certainly agree with you - forced coding styles are kinda slack, but do enforce a standard and might make debugging or maintaining someone else's code a LOT easier!
I take it that it's not too much unlike Perl/Tk or Perl/GTK in the rapid-prototyping sense?
So wait... They're bitching about us hacking a driver for it, when they themselves use Open Source tools like Apache and mod_perl? Hmmm, that's like biting the hand that feeds you, no?
I'm talking about the software aspect - you know, what this ENTIRE Slashdot story is about.
Get that in your head, or shut your piehole.
We're not stealing their product. It's free. What we choose to do with it, is really quite up to us. If they don't like it, then charge for it. But even then, we reserve the right to hack it.
"You can be as liberated as you want... As long as you follow our rules."
I'm talking about the software part of it - which is what this entire topic of discussion is about.
Like many people have said here - if I buy a product, you can be damned skippy that I'm gonna rip it apart to see what makes it tick if I'm so inclined. Now, releasing the software is another issue - but why shouldn't I share the fruits of my labor? It's just the same as if ten people all developed the same driver/workaround/hack and worked independantly.
The fact is, we're not here to steal their product. We're not releasing intellectual property (show me a patent, otherwise, get lost). We simply figured out how to make something work.
Groan... Okay, that was lame. Heh.
Sounds like they oughtta hire some Open Source people! ;>
What does RMS have to say about this? Surely the source to GNU/Bar_Code can't be stifled!
How do you pronounce that in binary?
Scumbags! Let the athletes have a diary if they want. Whose thoughts are they anyway? Certainly not YOURS. What'd ya make 'em sign an NDA? Argh.
Like the Olympic committee should really talk, considering the recent (and repetitive) issues with Utah.
The Olympics, IMO - are becoming a farce. It's less and less about the competition and the athletes and more about airtime, commercial value and sponsorship. You can see this just by watching the lousy coverage that we as Americans get... You only see an event if an American either won, or is "high profile."