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Robot soccer - AIBO Blown Away
Chilli writes "The results of RoboCup 2000 (the 4th RoboCup world championships) are out. There was a big suprise in the four legged robot league, which consistently uses AIBO hardware. UNSW United blew the competition away. In the final, they won 10-0 against last year's champion. The success was largely due to a new walking technique developed by the UNSW team."
Why would anyone in the States be interested in a football match anyway.
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Every other country in the World plays football, yet all the Americans play soccer.
American football is nothing more than a girls rugby, has it's own World league, in which no other countries participate.
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From the application page:
if you are a corporation or private party and wish to create a link.
/. isn't, is it?
-J
Karma: T-rexcellent.
Um, no. The battle bots are remote controlled by people (and are pretty boring, but that's just IMHO), the soccer robots are run by AI.
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We apologise for the inconvenience.
Axel
Axel
mhm23x3, alt.fan.karl-malden.nose
Yes, these football robots are all good and fine, but what I want to see are some ice hockey robots able to duke it out like the goons they should be. Besides, a robot able to skate would be quite a challenge to engineer, methinks...
Do robot dogs dream of electric sheep?
It's its. They're their, there. You're your. Who's whose? A looser loser, though those two too threw through the trough.
After all, during a cold, wet, wind-swept 3rd Division game on a Tuesday evening in December I've only had the humbe pie to keep me warm.
...the parts of the world worth living in.
Blar.
I assume you actually have read the Bible, in which case you'd realise that capitalism is inherently anti-Christian. Communism is much more compatible, what with all it's wealth-sharing etc. Anti-American does not equal anti-Christian, after all.
I used to whistle into a microphone connected to my spectrum, loading the whole of School Daze into memory. Those were the days.
NBA champs are called "World Champions"
and so are called MLB champs...
It's the same attitude to call USA "America"
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:wq
The gimmick for the winning aibo robot was actually software, the link is at the top of the page (!). They had a better walking algorithm, however there are many more leagues in robocup than just the aibo league. The aibo hardware is very limited in it's ability to cominicate between robots and also in it's sensors. So the really interesting intelligent autonomous robots won't be found in the aibo's. Although it is commendable that the aibo uses a fixed platform so hardware gimmicks aren't an issue. My comment refered to robocup as a whole especially the middle sized league (and the bi-pedel league once it develops ).
Until the robots can rip of their shirts and run around in their sports bras, color me unimpressed.
We must respect evil, and we must make evil respect us.
In what sense? Slashdot is owned by a public corporation. It was purchased back in '99 by Andover.net, which subsequently went public. Shortly after its IPO, Andover was acquired by another public corporation, VA Linux, for cash and stock reportedly worth around $900 million.
Sibling rivalry at its worst!
The robocup sounds interesting, but it's hard to tell when I've never actually seen it. Is there some way to watch the robots play other than quicktime movies that can't be viewed on Linux?
We'd be better off without love, hate and other emotions? What would have motivated humans to create so many ingenious things that have no direct use towards immediate survival if *not* emotions?? If nothing else, think of how many scientific advances were made in the pursuit of better war machines. Do you suggest such advances are not a result of hate for an enemy or love of one's (war-threatened) family?
Further, consider that genetic selection KEPT humans who could 'Love' as a way to ensure parents stayed together at least long enough to raise their offspring. Or look at how it seems to be a genetic advantage to love your kinsmen and friends -- so that when one is threatened, social bonds lead the rest to assist ... and thereby ensure more chances for your gene pools to reproduce.
You may think that this is outdated and no longer relevant to our species, but consider: humans still try to *achieve*. Why? Because it is a means of gaining social rank ... which gives access to better mates (and a stronger tribe) to forward their genes. Achievement is as an indirect product of the strongest emotions. It is from our desire for emotional fulfillment that the side effect of advancing science occurs.
I doubt we would we bother to achieve anything without emotional drives.
"The girl makes Godot look punctual." -- Buffy
During the true competition UNSW had only one goal scored against them - an own goal... Seems like the goalie AI was pretty good too...
I think you are knocking them for no real reason.
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~robocup is the UNSW site of the challenge.
You seem to miss the point that these are all standard issue Sony robots.
I'm from Canada and just HAPPENED to be backpacking in Melbourne, Australia when I heard Robocup 2000 was on. Being a dedicated geek I decided to show up on the last day and see it for myself. I must say I was a little disapponted. It was cool an all, but I was there on the LAST day, which should have all the best stuff and the snazziest teams, but there wasn't a whole helluva lot to see and do. A comment on the robosoccer players: It was blatantly obvious (and probably is to a lot of you already, but I'll say it anyway) that the larger/more complex the robotics involved the shittier the soccer you watched. The best were the pure AI players displayed on a big-assed screen for all to see. No robotics at all. The winning team was FC Portugal and they did a fine job of getting their players to always go after the ball/opposing players in two, which in my opinion cinched their victory. The worst were the humanoid biped walkers. It was sort of neat to watch (the one I actually saw walk), but the thing was painfully slow, and watching the little 2' robotic imp turn was excruciating. It just sort of rocked back and forth for half a minute until it had changed direction. In it's favour it did manage to kick a ball into a goal, but they aren't anywhere NEAR being able to play soccer. They were more of a techo demo. Aside from that they had the small wheeled robots, the larger wheeled robots (sorta Dalek looking), and the Aibos. I didn't realize you could program EVERYTHING on there, including their now famous kneeling crab-walk gait that really did help. Even without their new walk their strategy was better. I couldn't tell you what it was, but it was aetherally THERE and helping them out. It was hilarious to watch the other (standard gait) continuously get bowled over by the crab-gait team. At one point I think ALL of the opposing team's Aibos were on their backs flailing their legs in the air trying to right themselves! WEll that's it that's all. $20 entry fee. Ciao bella. -=Cam ===== cam_marsollier@hotmail.com
jesus, what are you mods thinking? this is the only live report we got and it's at 0?!?!
Yes, unlike the millions of possible groups who aren't corporations or private parties.
Good to know the jackasses keep their financial information nearby, so that they can include more data in their clueless posts.
You aren't going to get anywhere with "high level strategy". That's why no one has anything to show for 50 years of AI research.
Who cares if you find the optimal strategy for playing soccer within certain constraints? Programming a computer to play a perfect game of tic-tac-toe doesn't get you any closer to building something that's actually intelligent.
Robots aren't near human level computing power, so anything that looks like "strategy" is "pre-computed formula". On the other hand, Rodney Brooks' robots are in the same league as bugs, and they do bug like things in ways that may be close to how bugs do them.
So let the state of the art advance based on hardware for a while. Eventually, though, everyone will be running very similar hardware, and the better software will win out. Everyone is probably already running a good overall strategy -- it's the local control abilities that no one knows how to do well.
Or, as a more interesting question, did YOU submit the applications before linking in your article?
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
What is wrong with "organic"? The structures you can make with organic molecules seem to support a much greater complexty than any anorganic molecules. Of course IANAChemist, so I could be wrong.
Why not imagine organic machines? (Okay, I know some people already did) With the organic, more complex stuctures, it is perhaps possible to boost computing power way beyond anything imaginable with silicium chips. If we assume that intelligence is just a result of computations made by our brain, then our brain is just an organic-supercomputer. (Well, skip the "super" part for some people ^_^ )
I don't think that organic implies "mortal", so even an eventual artificial organic computer could be able to cross the vast distance between the stars and perpetuate human legacy. Yes I say "legacy" because neither the organic nor the silicium machines will be human, they would just be our evolutionary children.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
The last time I took a networking class, the differences between bitrate and baudrate were explained. In short, bitrate is the number of bits transferred per second, baudrate is the number of signal changes per second. If you would use only two tones to encode a bit, then the bitrate and the baudrate would be the same. If that is the case with your modem, then you are right in the assumption that listening to a modem is listening in binary.
However, to achieve more than 2800 odd bit/s [1], two or more bits are encoded into one tone, the bitrate multiplies accordingly, so you would listnen in base-4, base-8 or base-16.
[1] please fill in the right number, as I do not know it by heart (shame on me).
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"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a sick mind." (Terry Pratchett)
So, what would be the gimmick developed for the winning team? Does anyone have a link?
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"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a sick mind." (Terry Pratchett)
Blockquoth the poster:
Personally, I think it's pretty arrogant to assume that you (or anyone) knows "the wisdom and will of our Lord". Life has changed in the past 2000 years and yet very few updates have come down from Heaven as to how to live. Even if you believe that the New Testament is the revealed Word, you should be able to see that God always chose to speak in the metaphors and memes comprehensible at the time. If He'd mentioned "transferring consciousness to a computer", it would've sounded like gibberish. Actually, it'd sound a lot like assumption into Heaven... Hmmm.If you accept evolution, then humans using their brains (even for -- gasp! -- technology) is simply part of natural selection. If you're an evolutionary deist, then humans using their brains is a culmination of God's design. If you're a creationist, then it's silly to oppose technological innovation: You're alleging that God put a massive, wonderful, functioning brain in (nearly) every human, for the sole purpose of us ignoring it?? That's horribly inelegant.
I am amused and saddened by how many people believe that God is limited by their imaginations.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Looking through a lot of results there are very few games where both sides score. I'm not sure whether that means anything significant about the rules of the game or not...
Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
So growing an internal organ and placing it into a body successfully is not giving life to a creation? Granted, a liver might not have a 'soul' (assuming a body does) but where do you draw the line? What if in 5 years we can grow any major organ and replace them in a human successfully? What if we can grow entire bodies, transplant a brain and have that person function successfully after the operation?
What if we grow a body in a test tube environment that grows up and leads a normal life? In your doctrine this person will never be in Heaven because that person was not created by God, he/she does not have a Soul. Where do you draw the line?
God will never allow us to endow machines with intelligenc
Never? I'd be careful when using the word never. That was the point I was making in the original post. Fundamentalists have been crying Never for a long time, and they have been silenced in the past. They would like us to forget that they ever preached such nonsense, but not everybody forgets. How can you say never? We are quickly heading down a path where the distinction between machine and biological material are VERY blurry.
There are a lot of what ifs out there, and that isn't changing very fast, the what ifs are only getting more and more vast. The other battlecry I hear is this:
Yes, okay we COULD technically invent those things and do those actions, but God will come back first and end this astrocity from ever happening.
Right. That claim failed the test of time as well.
I advise you to read The Ten Commandments Site to learn the truth, and begin your path on the road to enlightenment and rightousness.
I've been down that path once before and it left a stale taste in my mouth.
V
Yes, but the winner of the Super Bowl is called the "World Champion"!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
From the "What is.." page of the official site
"These robots have been provided by Sony especially for this event. The internal workings of each robot, however, are determined by the RoboCup programmers who prepare them. Programmers cannot modify the robots' physical hardware; "
So.. acording to Sony, the "internal workings" means the... programing? The contestants are not alowed to change the iner mechanical workings of the robots or the external apearence. Free add for Sony anyone? BattleBots VS Little Sony Doggie?
Dirty Pirate Hooker
What's really amusing is that all you god-fearing weaklings post as anonymous cowards, which just goes to demonstrate how spineless you all really are. :)
:)]
Have a nice day.
[Moderators, this post is not Flamebait, or Troll, it is Insightful, or possibly Funny... unless your name is Jerry Farwell.
--- 'dex
No, see below.
Dirty Pirate Hooker
I'm emailing you the Snow Crash virus under separate cover.
The sad part about it is that there was such disparity in the abilities of the teams that most of the matches were shutouts, and some entire brackets consisted of nothing but shutouts. In the "simulation league" only a few matches had goals scored by both sides, with "normal" scores like 1-1 or 4-2, while dozens of other matches were shutouts, often with large scores of 15-0 or worse. In the "small size" league, played on a small field with a smaller ball, for 20 minutes, one of the matches ended with a score of 66-0. They must have been spending most of the time pulling the ball out of the goal.
One of the most difficult obstacles to constucting a [true, self-replicating] Von Neumann machine is the materials science aspect - how to turn raw collected mass into the extremely complex list of processed materials needed for subsequent production of new machines (and their control systems).
Currently, genetic enginnering and nanotechnology together form the leading contender for the systems needed to fabricate such complex systems from raw materials.
Remember, a Von Neumann machine is not a simple exploration robot - its a robot that carries aroud with it a refinery, smelting plant, forge, machine shops, semiconductor equipment (crystal growth, deposition, die stepper, tester, ATE) ect. ad nauseum.
While I don't agree with some of your other extrapolations (meat sacks may be around for quite a long time, the nature of consciousness seems more complicated that we suspected just a few decades ago...), nanotech is likely to be the only practical technology to build these machines for the next century or two...
After all, the future of the human race may depend on robotic systems. No, I'm not joking, I'm talking about Von Neumann machines, which will one day be our route to colonising the entire Universe without any of the troubles caused by transporting meat sacks throughout the cosmos.
Von Neumann? As in "data and program together but the processor is separate"? At least my brain doesn't work like that...
Finally, we would be free of the things that hold us back - mortality, hatred, love and fear. Rather than spending all of our time fighting amongst ourselves in petty dominance contests we can acheive our manifest destiny amongt the stars.
...and...
This is why the US needs to push foward with research into this area, rather than more "glamorous" areas like nantechnology. We need to get our machines launched before anyone else in order to get to their destinations first. In the game of survival, first come is definitely first served.
So much for "petty dominance contests"... (or was that irony?). Anyway: Native Americans, Aboriginies and the people of Alderaan all were first, too...
It warms my heart to see that even the nutty transhumanists who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality don't take themselves seriously enough to login or even create a dummy account. Let me save this futurist bullshit on the mini-tapepunch machine in my flying car or I'll just have the robot butler/babysitter/security-guard do it for me.
Hit pause on your Star Trek marathon tape and try to join us in the real world, ok Spock? I like sci-fi too, but extrapolating one idea or two to their irrational end to produce some lame Star Trek-esque fantasy is simply not convincing. memepool recently posted a similiar rant.
Funniest thing I've seen on slashdot in ages.
Are they robotic too?
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
My point was just that if the poster I replied to had the idea that Slashdot was a non-commercial organization of some kind (he didn't actually say what he was thinking), then he hasn't been paying attention.
BTW, careful who you call a jackass. I might have been that 20-24 year-old dominatrix you're seeking.
When will this sport get into the Olympics?
:wq!
Is this kind of like those "Battle Bots" on Comedy Central?
Rock 'n Roll, Not Pop 'n Soul
Rock 'n Roll, Not Pop 'n Soul
carldrawings.dk3.com
It would be cool if you gave them guns like that other security robot a while back. Then they could act like Rap stars.
Sig it.
Um, is that really correct? My reading (and the pictures shown) seem to indicate that the winning team, like all (?) other, used AIBO hardware--it's the software that differs between the teams...
main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
We (organic life forms in general, humans in specific) are an interesting mix. We've got this wonderful advanced logical capacity (well, some of us do) and we have the more primitive stuff like fear that keeps us in line and love that keeps us willing to live. We're all incredibly complex organic quantum computers, if you think about it. I don't see why we couldn't be based on silicon etc rather than carbon et al. But would such "hardware" really prevent us from having emotion? No simulated neural network has developed any such qualities yet, but I think that the only real blasphemy comes from doubting our own capacity and creativity.
I don't know if we're "destined" to evolve beyond our mortal organic bodies, but I believe that most of us will see truely alive artificial beings in our time. And I know that any God who'd endow us with minds that allow us to even discuss these things would be embarassed by the bible-thumping, "you're-going-to-hell"-slinging mentality that's somehow gotten posted on a site devoted to freedom of thought.
I have posted comments regarding Bible literalism
on the so-called "10 Commandments site" mentioned.
Unfortunately, the registry there is very limited
in size and could not retain the comments.
I therefore sent Mr Lee e-mail with the problems
I see with his approach.
What I don't understand is why Mr Lee bothers to
read Slashdot, unless he's trolling for a fight.
--jtg
Jan Theodore Galkowski, (Oo) http://www.smalltalkidiom.net/ MySQL,PHP,ETL,SQL,MinGW C, and plucking the Web
or better yet can they pick up pop stars??
mv
After all, the future of the human race may depend on robotic systems. No, I'm not joking, I'm talking about Von Neumann machines, which will one day be our route to colonising the entire Universe without any of the troubles caused by transporting meat sacks throughout the cosmos.
Indeed, by the time we get to that stage we may be able to avoid the messiness of organic life altogether, and have transplanted our conscioussness into some form of computer technology. Finally, we would be free of the things that hold us back - mortality, hatred, love and fear. Rather than spending all of our time fighting amongst ourselves in petty dominance contests we can acheive our manifest destiny amongt the stars.
This is why the US needs to push foward with research into this area, rather than more "glamorous" areas like nantechnology. We need to get our machines launched before anyone else in order to get to their destinations first. In the game of survival, first come is definitely first served.
How do you pronounce that in binary?
Now that is an intresting problem. I must agree to their terms of use before browsing their site, but how can I read *them* without accessing the site?
I'll just claim that I entered that URL first in case there was a legal notice I was supposed to read before browsing the rest of the site. Hm,... wonder if I may browse their 404 page?
Guess I'll better never set foot in Japan.
All opinions are my own - until criticized
Perhaps Zinedine Zidane was preocupied elsewhere...
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"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a sick mind." (Terry Pratchett)
By the way, it's the National Football League, not the International. Hence, only American teams.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
I choose to believe that my love and my hate, and even my mortality, are those things that make me alive. Had I not my love, my hate, my fear... would I not be a robot? A complex, learning robot, but a robot just the same. Our emotions are what separate us from every other living thing and every creation humans have made to date.
Manifest destiny my arse. It can take a flying leap - if things like love are petty, what is really worth the effort?
--Bistromath
the title for this article is really dumb: "Aibo blown away" ALL the robots in the competition were Aibos, so one team of Aibos was compteting against another... it wasn't some robot engineered especially for soccer/football "blowing away" the AIBO
What other country has delivered the freedoms and benefits that America has?
Freedoms such as having 25% of the worlds prisoners, but only 5% of the world population. Putting people in prison for concentual crimes (sex, drugs) while letting murders, rapists, and other violent offenders out.
Benefits such as having one of the highest murder rates. A low literacy rate. Children without medical care. High teen pregnancy rate.
Ah yes, I can see why you would say we are the best of humanity.
it would be the following..../p 01000111 01101111 01101111 01101111 01101111 01101111 01101111 01101111 01101111 01101111 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01100001 01101100 /p
I go with the traditional 0=oo sound and 1=l /p
a catchy beat if ooled appropriately...
not certain where my brain was re the /ps
need coffee..or sleep
Animals do indeed feel emotion. And, IMO, they should not be treated as "less" than human, as the vast majority of them are today. Because they are NOT less than human. They are merely different, their intelligence and wisdom is different from ours, but it is not non-existant.
Everything is but a number spoken by itself.
If they could reprogram AIBO to the point in which it has an AI for playing soccer then I guess there must be a way (compilers etc) to do it other than the toy software that one can buy to program some moves.
If only it didn't cost 2.5K and it wasn't impossible to find (unless you wander around the streets of Akihabara).
P.S. Italy came in 2nd in the F-2000 league losing to Germany at the penalty kicks sounds almost like a human soccer world cup 8)
the durability and precision of robotic machines will always be greater
One of the more interesting properties of organic materials is that they are far more resilient in the long term. If you bend a metal bar far enough, the bend is permamanant. Increase the stiffness of the bar, and the same load can shatter the metal beam. Organic systems are similar, except they hold more stress, without permanant deformation, at signifigantly less weight. If they do break, they can heal themselves (with the assistance of nearby and integrated systems.)
Also noteworthy is that a properly functioning organic joint operate at far lower wear levels than even the best mechanical ones. Nearly all aspects of moving systems are more efficient in organic systems. Show me ANY pump that can operate at the reliability levels of the human heart! At its size/weight/power/load/output statistics, I dare you to try and show me a pump with 1/1000 of its MTBF rating. 1/100000 even?
I would argue that inorganic augmentation allows organic systems to incorportate the best of both worlds, and the likely end result is a more efficient hybrid.
Here is their page, if anyone is interested.
he didn't actually say what he was thinking
good point.
avoid the messiness of organic life altogether
Obviously, you've never been "inside" a female zebra! It's kinda messy, but you won't even worry about that, trust me:-)Finally, we would be free of the things that hold us back - mortality, hatred, love and fear
Ok, fine. Mortality I agree with, hatred I agree with, but love and fear? Those are essential. Also - it would be preferable to replicate biological life inside digital life rather than go with digital life directly. After all, in a pseudo-ecosystem we could still have sex with hot female zebras, but not have to worry about death etc etc. Only hackers.Nah, this can't be serious, after winning both the World and Eurpean Cups, the French team :)
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Les 3 Mousquetaires,Laboratoire de Robotique de Paris, is only second
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A Robot bone or sugar to reward AIBO ?
They dream of it so Sony'll make it !
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Trolling using another account since 2005.
Or did you perhaps "access and browse" their site without checking their terms of use?
Oh no! Now Sony will firewall *slashdot* in my computer!
All opinions are my own - until criticized
Whilst I do not want to get into a pointless flame war over this point I do not think that you can possibly point to a society with a high murder rate and barbaric punishments such as the death penalty as a peak of civilisation. In terms of freedoms and benifits it would appear that the USA is on a par with Europe, but not really ahead in any way. Conditions are not like those in the dark ages over here - you just like to think that so as you can maintain the moral justification to intervene wherever and whenever you like. As for the "American Dream" - you really think that this is a dream only Americans can/do have. Get real.
I suppose you think it's "old wise tales," too.
-Pete
How to tell stories...
-Pete
The "teen pregnancy rate" is even higher if you take into account that 1 in 3 pregnancies end in abortion as the TPR only accounts for the ones that come to term (plus miscarriages, can't remember). 4000 plus abortions per day in the united states and ~half are performed on women before the age of 25 with the highest being amongst women in college.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
The current problem with robocup is that you can win quite easily by devoloping some new "gimmick" like a new walking technique. Iran for instance in the middle sized league has a robot that can turn it's wheels so that it drives in a cirkel around the ball until it's pointing in the right direction and drives of with the ball( turning its wheels into the traight position again ). :) ) with almost no budget to speak of. They beat the combined effort of something like 5 italian universities because the italians where using mostly standerd robots. So until a "standard" robot has emerged that has all the good gimmicks we will not sea a real competion between the (robot)intelligience of the differant teams.
Most universities however are more interested in letting real robot's do higher level strategy and therefor use standard robots. You can write much more interesting reasearch papers about strategy and communications between autonomous robots, than you can about a set of turning wheels. Therefor the iranian team was last years world champion and this years european champion (it was an open championship