Neither they nor the New Nation, which later picked up the story, realised the Onion was not a genuine news site.
As journalists, I'm sure they would verify the accuracy of the information they publish. Merely reprinting bogus information is something that non-journalists can do. Journalism schools should also teach students to find out about the reliability of their news sources. It's good to know that they eventually found out that the Onion wasn't as reality based as Fox News. I can now live in comfort knowing that journalism, like banking, has learned from it's mistakes.
I had no idea; I don't use Facebook myself. However, I meant "discreet" (and not "discrete"). Those words sound alike. People should fix the English language. It was much better in Shakespeare's time when people used to talk in iambic pentameter.
Probably not as stupid as people assume. No where in the article was it mentioned that it was an emergency situation. They were lost in a place that they shouldn't have been, and probably just wanted some advice without drawing a lot of attention to themselves. Obviously using Facebook wasn't the wise move if they wanted to be discrete.
But the real mystery is how they could have gotten lost in a storm drain. Did their parents "accidentally" flush them down the toilet? From the Wikipedia "Most storm sewers are provided with gratings or grids to prevent large objects from falling into the sewer system." It's a mystery that the article conveniently omits.
And to expect that by and large the folks of the lunchroom could hold their own in geography, or Geology, does seem a bit outlandish to them.
My points weren't about finding smart people in a non-Classroom environment. They probably are much better at serving food than Mathematicians. The main problem that people have is that they make assumptions (and often unfounded assumptions). Most people are stupid (including myself). Most people who have expertise in specific areas are often stupid. Jackie Stewart couldn't read and yet he can out maneuver most people on the race track. He has intelligence. It may be a different kind of intelligence than somebody gets from studying advanced and abstract Mathematics, but for somebody to claim they are smarter than him just because you can read and he can't is an ignorant and unintelligent way of thinking. And so too claiming that people who are particularly talented in the use and comprehension of language skills like that of English are unintelligent or "wankers" makes no sense whatsoever. It is an illogical and unintelligent observation and way of thinking.
I will remind you of what started this thread;
Multiplication tables.... he meant top percentile in Maths and Sciences obviously.... English is for wankers.
and then the other AC Troll that got up-Moderated;
to understand reasoning and critical thinking You never really saw math past high school, did you?
Being arrogant is not a requirement for success. I do keep an open mind however, whenever I learn something new, I weigh in all the variables and examine the data to decide whether this new information is in fact logical and correct then I will put it into my belief system. So far I have seen no evidence that arrogance is a requirement for success. In fact I've met arrogant people whom I consider idiots (though I'm sure the feeling is mutual).
Trying to attack a problem that has stood up to hundreds of mathematicians before you requires some real arrogance *for most folk anyway* and solid confidence in your brain, otherwise its time to walk away.
Actually I read that studies that show that people who don't have confidence in themselves and their ideas are the most successful (intellectually at least). I did a journal entry way back that is somewhat related to that idea. Unfortunately most people who have education make unfounded statements and assume them to be true because they happen to have education. It doesn't even have to be a Mathematics education, but in my experience English teachers tend to be the most logical and intelligent in making observations, and Mathematics people tend to rely on prejudice and bias to make decisions. Unfortunately what you know or how much you know doesn't impact on intelligence (at the most one could say correlation does not imply causation). As for cafeteria workers knowing less about geography than Mathematicians or anybody else for that matter is completely unrelated to the topic of intelligence. Education and intelligence are too different things.
Calling Chinese people quite good at mathematics, though not Einstein. I know a fair share of Chinese grad students, and I've seen pictures of Einsteins notes. I'm pretty sure Einstein was better at math than the average Chinese citizen. Oh.. the skill of Chinese drivers is just fine, but a person cant drive like a westerner on Chinese roadways, it would cause accidents.
It's obvious to me that you didn't comprehend what I said. Re-read, or ask somebody who has English language skills to help you (I'm serious and not Trolling. Math people often do have language problems. It is hypothesized that Einstein had dyslexia, but at least he wasn't in denial about his reading problems nor arrogant about his Math abilities).
Doctors scrub in and out. Otherwise their handwashing habits dont concern me.
That is illogical and unintelligent. It is not only common sense to wash your hands, but their are even right-now public service messages telling people to wash their hands because it spreads diseases. And if you work in a hospital were you touch other people all the time it makes sense. There are even statistical study's to validate this fact. Medical facilities are unfortunately breeding grounds for all sorts of diseases that spread easily. I could deduce without taking the time to educate myself (as I often do). This is yet another example of how Math and science people are not scientific in their practices nor even bother using the statistics that they learned in an intelligent or useful way.
I do have some cognitive bias. Getting all of the parts an RSA cryptosystem working correctly...
You "admit" (and hopefully not just rhetorically) to bias, which is good. The important thing is to realize that just because something is hard doesn't mean that only (or necessarily) "smart" people can accomplish it. Somebody once said "It's 99% perspiration". Never over-estimate the other 1%.
I left "particulary dumb" as a vague term that left some weasel space for the replier. I could say, someone who scores at the 25th percentile of his/her age group across categories (within the expected standard deviation ) in a well recognized and accredited standardized test, given in a fair environment. But that colors it quite unfairly.. So I left weasel space.
And you weaseled your way out of that one. I wish you people would just admit to be unintelligent instead of making excuses and coming up with over-the-top replies.
And yea, I think that people who work in Math all day think themselves brighter than the person who has been scooping the vegetables in the faculty cafeteria for the last 40 years. Almost to the same extent that a marathon runner considers himself more fit than a slashdot junkie.;)
That just shows your prejudice, your arrogance and your stupidity. If you think that way then you shouldn't waste your time talking to me because I have done that work, and in fact I have never done any other job except what people like you would consider to be "menial". I'm sure my work experience helps to validate what you and other Math Fanboys think of me.
From my perspective your inability to use logic merely validates the fact that Mathematics does not make people smart, in fact it appears to have the opposite effect.
How the blazes is someone going to handle pure mathematics without reasoning and critical thinking.
These things are not mutually exclusive. I have anecdotes of examples. What some people may call "critical thinking" is just expertise in a subject area. Einstein was very good at relativity for example, but he wasn't good in quantum mechanics (or mathematics in general). Unfortunately people confuse their expertise in a particular area as applying to all fields of endeavor. If that were true then Chinese people who are good at mathematics would also be good at driving cars. In fact doctors are required to take "science" courses (which includes mathematics) and yet they are still notorious for not washing their hands, and often perform medical procedures out of tradition or guess work as opposed to something based in reality. The same with the educated number-crunchers who gave bogus companies buy ratings when they (the balance sheets and quarterly reports) didn't offer the public anything but hope and unjustified claims.
Sure some calculations can be done that way, but math cant. I have yet to see a particularly dumb person implement RSA encryption, none the less build a sound assymetric cypher based on alternate one way functions.
Again, you probably have your blinders on. Just because they're good at doing RSA encryption doesn't mean they are smart. I've heard at least one security expert admit that he is too lazy to use strong passwords. That's dumb. Some are even stupid enough to bite the hand that feeds them. These people are referred to as smart and yet going to jail in the U.S. isn't smart, nor is losing a lucrative career for some extra cash. And many Maths people think that understanding history or human nature (i.e. like studying the humanities or the social sciences) is stupid. This isn't smart or critical thinking that makes them come to these conclusions. In fact if you ask them they will just Flame you. Flaming and Trolling aren't intelligent things to do either, and most of the people I've known who study Maths are Flamers and Trolls.
I have yet to see a particularly dumb person implement RSA encryption
Emphasis here. You didn't define what "particularly dumb" is so I don't know what you are talking about. I could presume that you are a Mathematics fanyboy because of your inability to express what you mean, but that would unjustifiably label me a Troll by Fanboys who have moderation points. Also, it is easy to presume that you consider people who do RSA encryption are intelligent and not "dumb" and therefore would have a cognitive bias in unjustly validating your statement. Again, it's easy to point out fallacies in people, especially people who study Mathematics, which I presume you have.
Worse yet, a lot of these Math people think they are somehow more intelligent than other people.
While plenty of "reasoning and Critical Thinking" folk out there dont have the slightest clue.
This statement is a logical fallacy. I shouldn't need to point it out, but a person who has the ability to reason and use critical thinking skills obviously does "have the slightest clue". It's the people who are unreasonable who don't reason, it is not the people with reason who are unreasonable.
Though it's interesting, throughout history, Maths peoples are always Flaming people and each other. Pythagoreans wanted people to deny the existence of irrational numbers on pain of death. Newton Flamed his contemporary. If Archimedes had some amount of non-mathematical intelligence (like communication skills) he probably wouldn't have been killed by a Roman Soldier. Unfortunately being Mathematically "intelligent" does not mean that a person is overall intelligent. And as always, whenever there is some new mathematical concept their will be a large proportion of contemporaries ignorantly condemning it without reasoning or critical thinking; whether it be the "Jewish
'With public dollars having funded the mothballed project, the government should now consider releasing the calculator's source code and enable other groups to pick up where the OCA (Office of Consumer Affairs) left off.'"
That would only make sense if the government (the Conservative Party) weren't neoconservative. They aren't going to stick it to their main constituents; the business lobby and their sycophants. Of course, in these type of observations their will be neoconservatives claiming that the Conservative Party isn't Right Wing.
OK, since the Moderators here want to play games I will specifically point out that you are ending your post with an obvious and dishonest Troll and Flame, and yet you end up getting moderated Insightful and my posts in these (educational) discussions tend to get moderated Troll, or just completely ignored. That's the way it is because that's the way the Slashdot community is. They uncritically believe what they've learned in school and will reinforce their beliefs with Moderation points and Flames, amongst other things.
I will emphasize: These dishonest and irrational Moderations are an example of how unintelligent people who study Mathematics are.
The bad posts get up-moderated and the Insightful and Informative posts get down-moderated. It's sad and pathetic. Unfortunately that is the way the Real World works.
Notice how when I go out of my way to explain things to people the Fan-boys down moderate my posts. I am obviously wasting my time. (It wasn't just this post that was down moderated). Also notice how the Trolls often get up-moderated during these type of discussions. You just need to observe how irrational people are. I shouldn't even need to explain anything.
I'll give a more specific answer to your question:
You said,
Like most people who are good at Mathematics you don't appear to be good at understanding the English language very well
Support for any of those three assertions?
If you've ever seen someone mis-punch a number into a calculator and blithely accept the result you know why you still need to be able to multiply
1. The person uses a logical fallacy here called a non sequitur. He is bringing up a completely irrelevant statement. I will obviously have to point out why it is irrelevant because of the extremely poor logic and comprehension skills that most people on Slashdot have (or at least the people who post on Slashdot). It is irrelevent because I never said that a person does not need to know how to multiply. In fact I never even stated that a person should not learn their multiplication tables. 2. Also his logic is faulty here as well because "mis-punching a number" has nothing to do with and is not related to "blithely accept[ing] the result".
Have some idea of what's a reasonable answer without just blindly accepting what comes out of a machine is a critical part of being educated.
Again, he is replying to my post but not to anything that I've said in the post. His statements, outside of his own fantasy world, makes no sense and has no relevance to what I said. I have never stated or implied that "blindly accepting what comes out of a machine" is good or that it should be condoned. Very poor reasoning here.
My wife told me about how, many years ago, her son's 2nd grade teacher got upset because her son was actually doing multiplication to figure out problems. Apparently they were supposed to guess, so he was "doing it wrong".
Once again this is very poor communication skills because it is a reply to my post, but it is not a reply to anything I said, and does not refute anything I said. It is a non sequitur. To elaborate, I never said that bad teaching was good, or that guessing was better than comprehending.
A lot of school can be pretty mind-numbingly boring, but the alternative of hoping that kids somehow fumble their way to knowing something useful seems like it's throwing about about 100,000 years of human progress.
Here his reasoning and communication skills are faulty because he is implying that I am in favour of ignorance and stupidity, and (he is implying) that "unschooling" is supporting this faulty premise.
In fact, and I even specifically pointed this out (for the third time now) that People need to question their assumptions. It is ironic that not only did the poster not question his assumptions, but he even makes more apparent assumptions in his replies.
This is the type of illogic and stupidity that I observe too often from math fan-boys. If they took less time memorizing math tables and spent more time learning how to reason then I would be more impressed.
It doesn't matter what you say or what proofs you have. (Most) people who have been taught that memorizing multiplication tables are important are intellectually incapable of believing that what they thought was a True and absolute Religion could some how be wrong. You are preaching to the intellectually dull.
I wasn't going to comment to a Troll so I initially ignored your comment. It is certainly is enlightening when Trolls get up-moderated in such discussions. My points are constantly being validated and reinforced by experience.
You're the one who said calculators made learning tables obsolete.
I never said that. You are interpreting (twisting the truth; whether intentional or not, it's a highly irrational thing to do). Fact is you have never proven that memorizing tables makes a person good at Mathematics or successful in life. You can qualify all you want, but there will inevitably be hypocrisy in your statements because their are probably math tables that people don't generally memorize and yet they can still understand the concepts and get the correct answers. For example most people are not forced to memorize division tables, logarithm tables, trig tables etc and yet they still end up getting their doctorates, actuarial degrees, architecture diplomas, etc.
Like most people who are good at Mathematics you don't appear to be good at understanding the English language very well
Support for any of those three assertions?
These are my personal observations from places like Slashdot, school and in the science community in general. As an example Richard Feynman himself made an the irrational, unproven and highly generalized statement that "Philosophy was B.S.". One of my high school friends who was a math prodigy admitted that he wasn't good at things like interpreting history; in fact his ethical behavior was very hypocritical, but that's another story. It would certainly be much better if a "scientist" did a quality study on the illogic of scientists, but that isn't going to happen. I've only noticed that whenever the science community sees results or data that is outside of their education that they tend to flame it. If these observations could be quantified that would be great; I don't have the resources. You will have to believe me or do your own research. It isn't difficult to find numerous examples of bogosity in the math and "science" community.
nor at rational reasoning or critical thinking.
Pot, meet kettle.
I'm not black. It is disappointing that people would rather be knee jerk defensive in defending their faulty assumptions (or at least unproven assumptions) rather than keeping an open mind. However, if I ever find myself in a state of hypocrisy I always try to change. My spirit is certainly willing. On the subject of hypocrisy, this whole Logic business wouldn't be an issue if I didn't constantly experience people Flaming the non-sciences. Flaming isn't rational, so having math and science fan-boys claim they are intelligent is ludicrous.
Until I got transfered to a special school for gifted children, where the material was presented at much quicker pace and at much more depth.
In the schools that I went to, they sent the upper middle class students to the "gifted" class rooms for extra attention. The the gifted students who had ignorant and working class parents were left to day dream in their seats for 6 to 7 hours a day.
And now we have children that need their fingers to sum up and that can't say on top of their heads how much 87x39 is; that read slowly... Still we find surprising these people are unable for anything but menial jobs; that they prefer sports and entertaiment to basic science (and then they stack their countries' monetary priorities accordingly).
I'm not sure if you are just being a Troll. Unfortunately your illogic, ignorance and lies are what separate the high IQ people who tend to get menial jobs from the ignorant and the obnoxious who tend to become wealthy business leaders and highly paid Managers.
On trying to search for a quick and easy reference I came up with an excellent blog that sums up my experience and my research:
Does intelligence always win out? The blogger Half-Sigma doesn't think so. He writes,
IQ is more highly correlated with life outcomes for people with below average to average IQs. Most career tracks have an IQ floor, and if your IQ isn't high enough to meet the floor level, you can't perform that job adequately. Few career tracks have IQ floors much higher than 115, so if your IQ is higher than that, your parental wealth and connections become very important.
Thus, the higher your IQ, the more important the wealth of your parents becomes (the very opposite of what most people think). People with exceptionally high IQs but inadequate parents often have poor life outcomes because of the mismatch.
(A tip 'o the hat to Steve Sailer.)
He's right, of course, for an assortment of reasons.
Very high IQ people tend to be more idiosyncratic than the average Joe, but as the saying goes, "If you're rich, you're eccentric, but if you're poor, you're just crazy."
The three laws of Stixian economics are: 1. Money makes money; 2. Money helps money; and 3. Money marries money. Some genius is bound to respond, "But rich people can be very talented!" That's true, but irrelevant to the question at hand.
Wealthy people do not like helping poor people, no matter how talented the poor schmucks are. In fact, they love hurting them. Much has been written, by Nietzsche on a bad day, self-styled "genius" Max Scheler, "glibertarians," and others about the alleged "resentment" that the poor feel towards the rich. I've never seen that resentment, but I've seen plenty of the resentment that the rich feel towards those with less than them.
They'll rationalize their abuse, saying that the poor but talented schmoe doesn't know his place, and has to be "taught a lesson," or they'll say he lacks "character" (as opposed to them?), which as they use it is merely a euphemism for "money," but the ultimate reason they'll hurt him is the same reason most people hurt other people: because they can.
And most poor people resent smart people who are themselves poor, as being guilty of thinking they are better than their dull peers (perish the thought!).
Schools that are full of poor NAM (non-Asian minority) kids tend to be extremely violent, racist, and anti-intellectual, and have incompetent, racist, anti-intellectual teachers, not exactly a recipe for success for a brilliant kid who's as poor as a church mouse.
Most teachers are on the dull side. People tend to think of the "teacher's pet" as being really smart, but a lot of teachers hate really smart kids because they remind them of their own shortcomings, and instead reward sycophants and bullies, who are often one and the same. Thus, if a kid is really smart, he'd better have well-to-do parents whom sadistic teachers and administrators will not dare anger.
Likewise, liberal arts professors prefer to support students who are upper-middle-class or richer, talent be damned. (And 40 years of affirmative action practices and the imposition of multicultural dogma have caused the intelligence level among liberal arts professors to collapse.)
There are relatively few jobs for very high IQ people.
Yours is one of the better answers that I've received. Most math and science students (and professionals) seem to be good at flaming and nothing else (here on Slashdot at least). I've stated earlier on in one of my posts that I'm more interested in having people understand the premise of their assumptions (about education) than on blasting education in general.
I hope your hand writing is as good as your communication skills.
That he wouldn't understand why in hell somebody pays so much attention about this or that frontier being this or that side of this or that river. Not being able to comprehend that opens the door for others making your mind for you. The next you know is that you are dressed on a uniform going for Poland out of other peoples' demagogy.
The Germans were one of the most educated of the Europeans when they decided to invade Poland et al. And as for Maths, the Romans couldn't understand the theory nor were they interested in understanding. They only learned enough to make them one of history's most successful dictatorships.
Not being able to comprehend that opens the door for others making your mind for you.
Again, you people seem to be confusing comprehension with memorization. I can comprehend how to use Google Maps, but I still don't know how knowing where Ohio is on the Map can prevent them from spewing their pollution into my province. I don't even know what the capital of Ohio is. If I knew would I be able to stop them? New York state wasn't able to.
If people are going to be required to memorize something then there should be adequate reasoning. Most people (as I've stated previously) will not even remember large parts of the decimal system's multiplication table after they reach adulthood and enter the workforce. Far less people will remember even 10% of what they learned in history or geography (unless, of course, their memory is constantly being reinforced, but I don't see this happening. People learn and forget, lather, rinse, repeat for over 20 years of their lives). People go through high school, college and even post doctorate programs without knowing where Ohio is, much less Kazakhstan. The fact is that it won't be relevant to most people. And memorizing doesn't make people intelligent either, so like I stated earlier, they're just as likely to condone, appease or encourage somebody like Adolph Hitler as somebody who didn't memorize their times tables or where the capital cities of Europe reside.
If you've ever seen someone mis-punch a number into a calculator and blithely accept the result you know why you still need to be able to multiply.
You seem to have misunderstood and misinterpreted what I was saying. Like most people who are good at Mathematics you don't appear to be good at understanding the English language very well nor at rational reasoning or critical thinking. Understanding how to multiply has nothing to do with memorizing tables, and accepting calculations without double-checking them also has nothing to do with memorizing tables. To paraphrase Albert Einstein, "Why memorize when I can look it up". But your missing the whole point. I never stated that memorizing tables was bad. The key phrase I made was. "People need to question their assumptions". (I've bolded it so that people's brains will find it easier to read).
Have some idea of what's a reasonable answer without just blindly accepting what comes out of a machine is a critical part of being educated.
Like most people who think they are intelligent and correct you are mistaken. Memorizing tables has nothing to do with understanding. I know people who have memorized large parts of the bible who still don't turn the other cheek when I slap them in the face.
Your last two paragraphs are non sequiturs because they neither relate to anything I have stated nor do they relate to what the article has stated about "unschooling". You really need to improve your English communication and comprehension skills. Perhaps if you were "unschooled" you would be more intelligent. (And no don't assume I'm Flaming because I'm terse and untactful. Almost everybody else thinks the same as you, and I don't want to euphemize the fact that most people are idiots).
Multiplication tables.... he meant top percentile in Maths and Sciences obviously.... English is for wankers.
You are yet another example of the fact that merely being expert in a subject like Mathematics or Physics has nothing to do with intelligence.
In fact I've noticed that people who are particularly dumb are drawn to Mathematics because it is much easier to understand discrete units of logic like 1+1 and it's more elaborate forms than it is to understand reasoning and critical thinking.
If you knew much about the history of compelled schooling, you would realize that a high school education was never meant to prevent you from menial, mind-numbing and stressful jobs. Quite the opposite. It was meant to prepare you for it.
"It was meant to prepare you for it.". Perhaps, but that's not the mythology that I was taught. I even worried about the "permanent record", and was told that my grades will decide your income.
Slashdot Mirror
Neither they nor the New Nation, which later picked up the story, realised the Onion was not a genuine news site.
As journalists, I'm sure they would verify the accuracy of the information they publish. Merely reprinting bogus information is something that non-journalists can do. Journalism schools should also teach students to find out about the reliability of their news sources. It's good to know that they eventually found out that the Onion wasn't as reality based as Fox News. I can now live in comfort knowing that journalism, like banking, has learned from it's mistakes.
never watched IT?
No, I've never watched It.
I'm afraid of clowns. I'm also afraid of dentists.
You're right. Facebook is very continuous.
I had no idea; I don't use Facebook myself. However, I meant "discreet" (and not "discrete"). Those words sound alike. People should fix the English language. It was much better in Shakespeare's time when people used to talk in iambic pentameter.
The lack of common sense is astounding.
Probably not as stupid as people assume. No where in the article was it mentioned that it was an emergency situation. They were lost in a place that they shouldn't have been, and probably just wanted some advice without drawing a lot of attention to themselves. Obviously using Facebook wasn't the wise move if they wanted to be discrete.
But the real mystery is how they could have gotten lost in a storm drain. Did their parents "accidentally" flush them down the toilet? From the Wikipedia "Most storm sewers are provided with gratings or grids to prevent large objects from falling into the sewer system." It's a mystery that the article conveniently omits.
And to expect that by and large the folks of the lunchroom could hold their own in geography, or Geology, does seem a bit outlandish to them.
My points weren't about finding smart people in a non-Classroom environment. They probably are much better at serving food than Mathematicians. The main problem that people have is that they make assumptions (and often unfounded assumptions). Most people are stupid (including myself). Most people who have expertise in specific areas are often stupid. Jackie Stewart couldn't read and yet he can out maneuver most people on the race track. He has intelligence. It may be a different kind of intelligence than somebody gets from studying advanced and abstract Mathematics, but for somebody to claim they are smarter than him just because you can read and he can't is an ignorant and unintelligent way of thinking. And so too claiming that people who are particularly talented in the use and comprehension of language skills like that of English are unintelligent or "wankers" makes no sense whatsoever. It is an illogical and unintelligent observation and way of thinking.
I will remind you of what started this thread;
Multiplication tables.... he meant top percentile in Maths and Sciences obviously.... English is for wankers.
and then the other AC Troll that got up-Moderated;
to understand reasoning and critical thinking
You never really saw math past high school, did you?
Being arrogant is not a requirement for success. I do keep an open mind however, whenever I learn something new, I weigh in all the variables and examine the data to decide whether this new information is in fact logical and correct then I will put it into my belief system. So far I have seen no evidence that arrogance is a requirement for success. In fact I've met arrogant people whom I consider idiots (though I'm sure the feeling is mutual).
Trying to attack a problem that has stood up to hundreds of mathematicians before you requires some real arrogance *for most folk anyway* and solid confidence in your brain, otherwise its time to walk away.
Actually I read that studies that show that people who don't have confidence in themselves and their ideas are the most successful (intellectually at least). I did a journal entry way back that is somewhat related to that idea. Unfortunately most people who have education make unfounded statements and assume them to be true because they happen to have education. It doesn't even have to be a Mathematics education, but in my experience English teachers tend to be the most logical and intelligent in making observations, and Mathematics people tend to rely on prejudice and bias to make decisions. Unfortunately what you know or how much you know doesn't impact on intelligence (at the most one could say correlation does not imply causation). As for cafeteria workers knowing less about geography than Mathematicians or anybody else for that matter is completely unrelated to the topic of intelligence. Education and intelligence are too different things.
Einstein not good in quantum mechanics..WTF?. He introduced the theory of light-wave duality. It's still taught in high school today.
He also said that "God doesn't play dice" and spent much of his academic career trying to prove it. I'll leave you with a general reference of his mistakes: http://discovermagazine.com/2004/sep/the-masters-mistakes.
Calling Chinese people quite good at mathematics, though not Einstein. I know a fair share of Chinese grad students, and I've seen pictures of Einsteins notes. I'm pretty sure Einstein was better at math than the average Chinese citizen. Oh.. the skill of Chinese drivers is just fine, but a person cant drive like a westerner on Chinese roadways, it would cause accidents.
It's obvious to me that you didn't comprehend what I said. Re-read, or ask somebody who has English language skills to help you (I'm serious and not Trolling. Math people often do have language problems. It is hypothesized that Einstein had dyslexia, but at least he wasn't in denial about his reading problems nor arrogant about his Math abilities).
Doctors scrub in and out. Otherwise their handwashing habits dont concern me.
That is illogical and unintelligent. It is not only common sense to wash your hands, but their are even right-now public service messages telling people to wash their hands because it spreads diseases. And if you work in a hospital were you touch other people all the time it makes sense. There are even statistical study's to validate this fact. Medical facilities are unfortunately breeding grounds for all sorts of diseases that spread easily. I could deduce without taking the time to educate myself (as I often do). This is yet another example of how Math and science people are not scientific in their practices nor even bother using the statistics that they learned in an intelligent or useful way.
I do have some cognitive bias. Getting all of the parts an RSA cryptosystem working correctly...
You "admit" (and hopefully not just rhetorically) to bias, which is good. The important thing is to realize that just because something is hard doesn't mean that only (or necessarily) "smart" people can accomplish it. Somebody once said "It's 99% perspiration". Never over-estimate the other 1%.
I left "particulary dumb" as a vague term that left some weasel space for the replier. I could say, someone who scores at the 25th percentile of his/her age group across categories (within the expected standard deviation ) in a well recognized and accredited standardized test, given in a fair environment. But that colors it quite unfairly.. So I left weasel space.
And you weaseled your way out of that one. I wish you people would just admit to be unintelligent instead of making excuses and coming up with over-the-top replies.
And yea, I think that people who work in Math all day think themselves brighter than the person who has been scooping the vegetables in the faculty cafeteria for the last 40 years. Almost to the same extent that a marathon runner considers himself more fit than a slashdot junkie. ;)
That just shows your prejudice, your arrogance and your stupidity. If you think that way then you shouldn't waste your time talking to me because I have done that work, and in fact I have never done any other job except what people like you would consider to be "menial". I'm sure my work experience helps to validate what you and other Math Fanboys think of me.
From my perspective your inability to use logic merely validates the fact that Mathematics does not make people smart, in fact it appears to have the opposite effect.
How the blazes is someone going to handle pure mathematics without reasoning and critical thinking.
These things are not mutually exclusive. I have anecdotes of examples. What some people may call "critical thinking" is just expertise in a subject area. Einstein was very good at relativity for example, but he wasn't good in quantum mechanics (or mathematics in general). Unfortunately people confuse their expertise in a particular area as applying to all fields of endeavor. If that were true then Chinese people who are good at mathematics would also be good at driving cars. In fact doctors are required to take "science" courses (which includes mathematics) and yet they are still notorious for not washing their hands, and often perform medical procedures out of tradition or guess work as opposed to something based in reality. The same with the educated number-crunchers who gave bogus companies buy ratings when they (the balance sheets and quarterly reports) didn't offer the public anything but hope and unjustified claims.
Sure some calculations can be done that way, but math cant. I have yet to see a particularly dumb person implement RSA encryption, none the less build a sound assymetric cypher based on alternate one way functions.
Again, you probably have your blinders on. Just because they're good at doing RSA encryption doesn't mean they are smart. I've heard at least one security expert admit that he is too lazy to use strong passwords. That's dumb. Some are even stupid enough to bite the hand that feeds them. These people are referred to as smart and yet going to jail in the U.S. isn't smart, nor is losing a lucrative career for some extra cash. And many Maths people think that understanding history or human nature (i.e. like studying the humanities or the social sciences) is stupid. This isn't smart or critical thinking that makes them come to these conclusions. In fact if you ask them they will just Flame you. Flaming and Trolling aren't intelligent things to do either, and most of the people I've known who study Maths are Flamers and Trolls.
I have yet to see a particularly dumb person implement RSA encryption
Emphasis here. You didn't define what "particularly dumb" is so I don't know what you are talking about. I could presume that you are a Mathematics fanyboy because of your inability to express what you mean, but that would unjustifiably label me a Troll by Fanboys who have moderation points. Also, it is easy to presume that you consider people who do RSA encryption are intelligent and not "dumb" and therefore would have a cognitive bias in unjustly validating your statement. Again, it's easy to point out fallacies in people, especially people who study Mathematics, which I presume you have.
Worse yet, a lot of these Math people think they are somehow more intelligent than other people.
While plenty of "reasoning and Critical Thinking" folk out there dont have the slightest clue.
This statement is a logical fallacy. I shouldn't need to point it out, but a person who has the ability to reason and use critical thinking skills obviously does "have the slightest clue". It's the people who are unreasonable who don't reason, it is not the people with reason who are unreasonable.
Though it's interesting, throughout history, Maths peoples are always Flaming people and each other. Pythagoreans wanted people to deny the existence of irrational numbers on pain of death. Newton Flamed his contemporary. If Archimedes had some amount of non-mathematical intelligence (like communication skills) he probably wouldn't have been killed by a Roman Soldier. Unfortunately being Mathematically "intelligent" does not mean that a person is overall intelligent. And as always, whenever there is some new mathematical concept their will be a large proportion of contemporaries ignorantly condemning it without reasoning or critical thinking; whether it be the "Jewish
'With public dollars having funded the mothballed project, the government should now consider releasing the calculator's source code and enable other groups to pick up where the OCA (Office of Consumer Affairs) left off.'"
That would only make sense if the government (the Conservative Party) weren't neoconservative. They aren't going to stick it to their main constituents; the business lobby and their sycophants. Of course, in these type of observations their will be neoconservatives claiming that the Conservative Party isn't Right Wing.
nor at rational reasoning or critical thinking.
Pot, meet kettle.
OK, since the Moderators here want to play games I will specifically point out that you are ending your post with an obvious and dishonest Troll and Flame, and yet you end up getting moderated Insightful and my posts in these (educational) discussions tend to get moderated Troll, or just completely ignored. That's the way it is because that's the way the Slashdot community is. They uncritically believe what they've learned in school and will reinforce their beliefs with Moderation points and Flames, amongst other things.
Here is just one example of the many Troll moderations that get up-moderated by Math fan-boys:
Example:
- Ref., http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1358465&cid=29320093
I will emphasize: These dishonest and irrational Moderations are an example of how unintelligent people who study Mathematics are.
The bad posts get up-moderated and the Insightful and Informative posts get down-moderated. It's sad and pathetic. Unfortunately that is the way the Real World works.
(Score:0, Flamebait)
Notice how when I go out of my way to explain things to people the Fan-boys down moderate my posts. I am obviously wasting my time. (It wasn't just this post that was down moderated). Also notice how the Trolls often get up-moderated during these type of discussions. You just need to observe how irrational people are. I shouldn't even need to explain anything.
I'll give a more specific answer to your question:
You said,
If you've ever seen someone mis-punch a number into a calculator and blithely accept the result you know why you still need to be able to multiply
1. The person uses a logical fallacy here called a non sequitur. He is bringing up a completely irrelevant statement. I will obviously have to point out why it is irrelevant because of the extremely poor logic and comprehension skills that most people on Slashdot have (or at least the people who post on Slashdot). It is irrelevent because I never said that a person does not need to know how to multiply. In fact I never even stated that a person should not learn their multiplication tables.
2. Also his logic is faulty here as well because "mis-punching a number" has nothing to do with and is not related to "blithely accept[ing] the result".
Have some idea of what's a reasonable answer without just blindly accepting what comes out of a machine is a critical part of being educated.
Again, he is replying to my post but not to anything that I've said in the post. His statements, outside of his own fantasy world, makes no sense and has no relevance to what I said. I have never stated or implied that "blindly accepting what comes out of a machine" is good or that it should be condoned. Very poor reasoning here.
My wife told me about how, many years ago, her son's 2nd grade teacher got upset because her son was actually doing multiplication to figure out problems. Apparently they were supposed to guess, so he was "doing it wrong".
Once again this is very poor communication skills because it is a reply to my post, but it is not a reply to anything I said, and does not refute anything I said. It is a non sequitur. To elaborate, I never said that bad teaching was good, or that guessing was better than comprehending.
A lot of school can be pretty mind-numbingly boring, but the alternative of hoping that kids somehow fumble their way to knowing something useful seems like it's throwing about about 100,000 years of human progress.
Here his reasoning and communication skills are faulty because he is implying that I am in favour of ignorance and stupidity, and (he is implying) that "unschooling" is supporting this faulty premise.
In fact, and I even specifically pointed this out (for the third time now) that People need to question their assumptions. It is ironic that not only did the poster not question his assumptions, but he even makes more apparent assumptions in his replies.
This is the type of illogic and stupidity that I observe too often from math fan-boys. If they took less time memorizing math tables and spent more time learning how to reason then I would be more impressed.
It doesn't matter what you say or what proofs you have. (Most) people who have been taught that memorizing multiplication tables are important are intellectually incapable of believing that what they thought was a True and absolute Religion could some how be wrong. You are preaching to the intellectually dull.
I wasn't going to comment to a Troll so I initially ignored your comment. It is certainly is enlightening when Trolls get up-moderated in such discussions. My points are constantly being validated and reinforced by experience.
You're the one who said calculators made learning tables obsolete.
I never said that. You are interpreting (twisting the truth; whether intentional or not, it's a highly irrational thing to do). Fact is you have never proven that memorizing tables makes a person good at Mathematics or successful in life. You can qualify all you want, but there will inevitably be hypocrisy in your statements because their are probably math tables that people don't generally memorize and yet they can still understand the concepts and get the correct answers. For example most people are not forced to memorize division tables, logarithm tables, trig tables etc and yet they still end up getting their doctorates, actuarial degrees, architecture diplomas, etc.
These are my personal observations from places like Slashdot, school and in the science community in general. As an example Richard Feynman himself made an the irrational, unproven and highly generalized statement that "Philosophy was B.S.". One of my high school friends who was a math prodigy admitted that he wasn't good at things like interpreting history; in fact his ethical behavior was very hypocritical, but that's another story. It would certainly be much better if a "scientist" did a quality study on the illogic of scientists, but that isn't going to happen. I've only noticed that whenever the science community sees results or data that is outside of their education that they tend to flame it. If these observations could be quantified that would be great; I don't have the resources. You will have to believe me or do your own research. It isn't difficult to find numerous examples of bogosity in the math and "science" community.
I'm not black. It is disappointing that people would rather be knee jerk defensive in defending their faulty assumptions (or at least unproven assumptions) rather than keeping an open mind. However, if I ever find myself in a state of hypocrisy I always try to change. My spirit is certainly willing. On the subject of hypocrisy, this whole Logic business wouldn't be an issue if I didn't constantly experience people Flaming the non-sciences. Flaming isn't rational, so having math and science fan-boys claim they are intelligent is ludicrous.
Until I got transfered to a special school for gifted children, where the material was presented at much quicker pace and at much more depth.
In the schools that I went to, they sent the upper middle class students to the "gifted" class rooms for extra attention. The the gifted students who had ignorant and working class parents were left to day dream in their seats for 6 to 7 hours a day.
And now we have children that need their fingers to sum up and that can't say on top of their heads how much 87x39 is; that read slowly... Still we find surprising these people are unable for anything but menial jobs; that they prefer sports and entertaiment to basic science (and then they stack their countries' monetary priorities accordingly).
I'm not sure if you are just being a Troll. Unfortunately your illogic, ignorance and lies are what separate the high IQ people who tend to get menial jobs from the ignorant and the obnoxious who tend to become wealthy business leaders and highly paid Managers.
On trying to search for a quick and easy reference I came up with an excellent blog that sums up my experience and my research:
Yours is one of the better answers that I've received. Most math and science students (and professionals) seem to be good at flaming and nothing else (here on Slashdot at least). I've stated earlier on in one of my posts that I'm more interested in having people understand the premise of their assumptions (about education) than on blasting education in general.
I hope your hand writing is as good as your communication skills.
That he wouldn't understand why in hell somebody pays so much attention about this or that frontier being this or that side of this or that river. Not being able to comprehend that opens the door for others making your mind for you. The next you know is that you are dressed on a uniform going for Poland out of other peoples' demagogy.
The Germans were one of the most educated of the Europeans when they decided to invade Poland et al. And as for Maths, the Romans couldn't understand the theory nor were they interested in understanding. They only learned enough to make them one of history's most successful dictatorships.
Not being able to comprehend that opens the door for others making your mind for you.
Again, you people seem to be confusing comprehension with memorization. I can comprehend how to use Google Maps, but I still don't know how knowing where Ohio is on the Map can prevent them from spewing their pollution into my province. I don't even know what the capital of Ohio is. If I knew would I be able to stop them? New York state wasn't able to.
If people are going to be required to memorize something then there should be adequate reasoning. Most people (as I've stated previously) will not even remember large parts of the decimal system's multiplication table after they reach adulthood and enter the workforce. Far less people will remember even 10% of what they learned in history or geography (unless, of course, their memory is constantly being reinforced, but I don't see this happening. People learn and forget, lather, rinse, repeat for over 20 years of their lives). People go through high school, college and even post doctorate programs without knowing where Ohio is, much less Kazakhstan. The fact is that it won't be relevant to most people. And memorizing doesn't make people intelligent either, so like I stated earlier, they're just as likely to condone, appease or encourage somebody like Adolph Hitler as somebody who didn't memorize their times tables or where the capital cities of Europe reside.
I am citing his errors as evidence while I point out the absurdity of his claim.
Using a Slashdot post to judge somebody's intelligence is not statistically significant. I am merely pointing out the error of your reasoning.
If you've ever seen someone mis-punch a number into a calculator and blithely accept the result you know why you still need to be able to multiply.
You seem to have misunderstood and misinterpreted what I was saying. Like most people who are good at Mathematics you don't appear to be good at understanding the English language very well nor at rational reasoning or critical thinking. Understanding how to multiply has nothing to do with memorizing tables, and accepting calculations without double-checking them also has nothing to do with memorizing tables. To paraphrase Albert Einstein, "Why memorize when I can look it up". But your missing the whole point. I never stated that memorizing tables was bad. The key phrase I made was. "People need to question their assumptions". (I've bolded it so that people's brains will find it easier to read).
Have some idea of what's a reasonable answer without just blindly accepting what comes out of a machine is a critical part of being educated.
Like most people who think they are intelligent and correct you are mistaken. Memorizing tables has nothing to do with understanding. I know people who have memorized large parts of the bible who still don't turn the other cheek when I slap them in the face.
Your last two paragraphs are non sequiturs because they neither relate to anything I have stated nor do they relate to what the article has stated about "unschooling". You really need to improve your English communication and comprehension skills. Perhaps if you were "unschooled" you would be more intelligent. (And no don't assume I'm Flaming because I'm terse and untactful. Almost everybody else thinks the same as you, and I don't want to euphemize the fact that most people are idiots).
Multiplication tables.... he meant top percentile in Maths and Sciences obviously.... English is for wankers.
You are yet another example of the fact that merely being expert in a subject like Mathematics or Physics has nothing to do with intelligence.
In fact I've noticed that people who are particularly dumb are drawn to Mathematics because it is much easier to understand discrete units of logic like 1+1 and it's more elaborate forms than it is to understand reasoning and critical thinking.
If you knew much about the history of compelled schooling, you would realize that a high school education was never meant to prevent you from menial, mind-numbing and stressful jobs. Quite the opposite. It was meant to prepare you for it.
"It was meant to prepare you for it.". Perhaps, but that's not the mythology that I was taught. I even worried about the "permanent record", and was told that my grades will decide your income.