Uh, dude, unless you're getting thousands of hits per day, a $40 Celeron and 256MB RAM should be able to handle your HTTP and mail just fine. A G4 should be used for tasks that can justify the horsepower.
(Like GAMES!! =)
That said, I agree completely.:) I'd love to have a G4 too, just to sit on while I read the paper. I'd also like a pony.
I wasn't talking about Linux as software, I was talking about Linux as a culture. And since you are a self-described old-timer, I refuse to believe that you never yearn for the closely knit scenes of yesteryear.
I never said the scenes were ruined. Just... different. And while I try to welcome change, I don't forget the past.
And FYI, many of us are still watching the crappy fansubs, seeing as how the "high quality" subbed releases are two or three years behind the current Japanese scene. Rurouni Kenshin was just finally released by a US distributor, under the ridiculous name of "Samurai X". Fanboys have had the entire series and both movies on fifth-generation dubs since last year.:) It's as new to the American mainstream as Linux is... Linux is a brand new, revolutionary OS, right? LOL.
Your post almost succeeds, but the pathetic "poor baby" is just too trollish to be considered anything else but a sad troll. Try again next time... maybe one day, you'll learn to flame like a real old-timer.;p
I wasn't looking for a confrontation. Chill out and stop being to hostile -- it's only Stashdot, right?
This is the type of reponse I expected, so thanks for not disappointing me. It wasn't special because it was rare. It was special because the people involved in the scene were there because they loved it. These days, the scene is dilluted. Half of the people at the cons now are there because of the current fad. Americans are creating cheap knock-off anime and getting rich just because their drawings look vaguely similar. The events are cheapened.
As for developing a "real sense of individuality", I think I've done quite well in that regard in my lifetime. I know who you're confusing me with, though. Sorry, I'm not a groupie. Perhaps you'd have more success trolling the UF forum.
The same thing is beginning to happen to the GNU/Linux scene. Maybe in five years, kind AC, you'll know how I feel.
Dammit, this happens to everything I've ever been in to. I've learned to ride the wave. But I'm not looking forward to it.
So, if you are walking through a train station or shopping mall and the screen gets a BSOD - blame the fscking VC's that don't have a bloody clue.
I've told this story here before, but your comment has me in stitches: about a year ago I was in a shopping mall about twenty minutes outside of DC, and there were video screens embedded in columns by the mall entrance. (Forgive me; I forget what they were there for.) Well, as I was sauntering out of the mall (with a cafe mocha and a copy of JDJ, most likely), guess what I saw on these screens? Yep, you guessed it: BSoD.:) I laughed all the way back to the office.
So I'm curious if maybe your old company were responsible.
I couldn't believe it when I saw dubbed Tenchi Muyou! being played on Cartoon Network the other day. I almost threw up. I absolutely hate this new American anime fad. Post-'90 America just can't live without fucking up the whole world, can we? Otakon is coming very soon, but I'm not even sure if I'll go. I'm sure I'll end up leaving in a blind rage if I do. There will be twice as many people as two years ago, and all of them will be looking for dubbed Dragon Ball Z and crap like that. (Ha ha, no offense, right Taco?)
Maybe this is why I stopped watching TV. Leave it to my dumb luck to turn on the telly for the first time in three months and see that.
If I ever see anything I really love on American TV, like Shinseiki Evangelion or Serial/Visual Experiments Lain, I'm throwing the TV out the window and moving to the UK. Hey, otaku, remember when we were just another breed of comic-book freaks? Ahhhh, those were the days... I never had to worry about it gaining "acceptance" (if you can really call the whirlwind rape and pillage that is a 90's American fad "acceptance") . . .
And FYI, Taco, you dumbfuck, Ryoko never "morphed" into anything. You just saw the first half of the first episode, right? Don't try and sound familiar with someting you're not. You're starting to sound like Katz. What's up?
GNU/Linux, as everyone says (including Microsoft!) is very difficult to use, so you'd better buy $200 of O'Reilly books, just to be safe.
Linux users are loyal bunch, and will want to show their support. Tux t-shirt: $20. Tux sticker: $2. Being able to impress people at CompUSA with your mad L1nuX h4X0r 5killz: priceless.
Linux hackers love beer, right? 12 back of El-cheapo beer: $5.
Linux hackers love caffeine, right? 1 cup of Starbucks coffee: $20.
Everyone should buy 4 copies of Quake 3 for Linux, to show the gaming industry that there really is a Linux gamers' market. 4 copies of Quake 3: $160.
Linux users are oftn unemployed, whether because they became violent when trying to convince management to install Linux on their $20k Sun boxen, or because they skipped too much work going to oggle booth babes at Linux cons. So, of course, they end up selling their bodies on the streets. One night with a pimply, 20 year old Linux geek: $2.50.
Linux users all read Slashdot, and since a large proportion of them are moderators, they'll be smoking a lot of crack. (One $2 crack rock) * (5 mod points) = $10
RMS demands that 666 Linux developers sacrifice theur first-born child (or pet cat) to the Swedish God of Dance every year, on All-Hollows' Eve. Cleaning up all that blood (and buying new cats/children) is expensive. One new child = $15.75.
And finally, 99% of Linux users run Red Hat, "the choice of Windows users." (99% of Linux users) * $40 = a lot of money
So, you see, the wheel is greased even if the software is "free".
No idea when the Java 2 kit will actually be released. But as long as BSDi is committed...
We trolled Sun's Java RFE page for months trying to get something like this. The FreeBSD/Java 2 RFE was number one, by over 300%, for half a year, and I never heard one peep of response from Sun. Recently we started in on IBM Alphaworks, and at least they were honest enough to tell us that they had no plans to do Java work for FreeBSD.
I think that with BSDi's backing, the current work done by the FreeBSD team, and the available Blackdown code, December isn't too soon to hope for. Alas, I was forced to stop Java development in FreeBSD in March. A year behind the current technology is just too much. I now do Java work from Linux and NT.
Slackware's init process is quite a strange animal. It's a compromise between SVR4's runlevels and BSD's few simple config files. Slack keeps several files -- under a dozen in all, IIRC -- in/etc/rc.d, each corrsponding to a different runlevel, and a few others for specific system events. I think the end result is pleasing and makes admin on personal Slack boxen that much easier, but the BSD-feel is an illusion.
GNU/Linux does things its own way, but you can definitely see that the kernel and much of the low-level system stuff takes its hints from SVR4. The BSD influence is there, but much weaker. I will stand by my statement that if Linux had to choose a side of the fence, it'd be SVR4.
And while AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, et cetera all have their eccentricities and quirks, the important thing is that they're certified with the modern UNIX standards, so there's a great deal that they're guaranteed to have in common.
I love my FreeBSD boxen, but I believe that SVR4 and POSIX managed to integrate the best of BSD, and that any groundbreaking BSD development these days won't mean much. Of course, I hope I'm proven wrong. In the meantime, I'll try to straddle the fence as best I can, as I always have.
Ooooh, the prospect of an intelligent dirt on OSX gets me all excited. I'd love to review a copy of your article before you send it to Slashdot. (I'll sign an NDA if you want.) If Slashdot doesn't take it, I have a BSD-centric news site in the works that would jump at the chance. Just don't waste your story on one of those Mac rumour sites. E-mail me if interested.
For some reason, last week Slashdot started cutting off the end of my old sig. That was all I could come up with in five minutes that was short enough.:)
Seriously, I have been reading Slashdot for awhile and I think that you are missing the point I think most readers get irrate about their anti-competitive business practices not so much the technologies that they produce.
And my point is that for Linux to succeed, we'll have to forget our ethics. Not to be too mean, but only lifelong academics like Stallman can afford to debate the ethics of it all. Like I said in another post from this thread, business users don't give a damn about Microsoft's anticompetitive business practices unless it affects their bottom line. Sad but true. I suppose that being technology enthusiasts, we can afford to debate too. But market share is what we need to succeed, and ethical arguments are all but useless to your boss. Does it work better, cheaper than NT? Tell us how and why. Tell us how it compares in terms of hardware costs. Tell us what the necessary steps and costs are for installation, training, and maintainence. Tell us how compatible it is with our other systems. Tell us what support options are available. Tell us this and tell us that. Don't even mention any ethical shit to your boss unless you're prepared to answer all that and more. In fact, I recommend not mentioning the "free" nature at all. And, God help you, don't mention the GPL. Tell him it's a high-performace, low-cost Unix-like OS that gets very respectable results on low-cost hardware. Tell him it's a big thing and the industry is abuzz and there's more hardware and software support every day. Tell him it has a industry-standard C compiler, support for Java 2, and features the most popular web server in the world. (Leave the more bitter truth for later.) Tell him that IBM, Oracle, and Sun Microsystems have been supporting Linux. And if your boss is more technical, feel free to blab on for hours about finely-grained kernel locking, software RAID, and support for tons of filesystems, et cetera. Just don't give him a blank look and stutter, "Uhh... Bill Gates sucks and, uh, Microsoft is a monopoly, and, uh, Linux is elite and I am an elite hacker, and uh, MP3s and wares."
Please.
Usually I'm not so feverent (or I try not to be) but lately I've had the nagging feeling that if Linux is going to "make it" in the business world, we have to get off our asses now. Drop the childish attitudes and just make it happen. For such an intelligent and determined group of people, it shouldn't be as hard as Microsoft would like us to think.
PS - My comments are as much a product of a generalized brain and are equally as full of shit as yourself.
I prefer to think that neither of us is too full of shit.:)
When you live in the gorilla cage at the zoo, everything the 900lb alpha male does is a big concern to you, even if you're just an adolescent have-nothing trying to mind your own business.
I believe the same applies in prison.;-)
Check your definition of FUD. A steamin' heap of the MS criticism given here is fact. Just because you don't like the implications of a fact, does not make it FUD.
FUD is Fear, Uncertainy, and Doubt. I have known many Linux users that are willing to deem NT unsuitable for any task, without even knowing the task at hand. A group of Linux groupies unwilling to consider using NT just because it's made by an abusive monopoly is just as thickheaded as a group of NT groupies unable to consider Linux because it's free. Zealotry, while fun to participate in and entertaining to watch, is dangerous. I want the Slashdot community to learn mature and civilized advocacy, because it may be very important in the next five years.
I'm an equal-opportunity geek, and I'm for using the right tool for the job. I wouldn't serve a high-traffic e-commerce site from the J2EE test server any more than I would install Linux as a PHB's desktop OS. I wouldn't recommend Visual Basic for numerical analysis, and I wouldn't recommend Perl for coding a 3D flight sim. Every tool has a place, and every tool should be in its place. NT has place just like Linux does.
Don't diss NT because it's from Microsoft. For Linux to succeed in the business world, its users must realize the fact that ethics don't mean anything. The greed for profit breeds a ruthlessness that is what helps large companies survive. Joe Corporate couldn't give a damn what Microsoft does unless it directly affects their profits. And for 99% of companies, it doesn't, at least directly. Joe Corporate buys Microsoft because the users need less training, the admins are easy to find and can be paid less, and because he has the assurance that Microsoft isn't going anywhere. Sure, the software licensing is expensive as hell, but in the end the cost is put on their customers. And maybe Joe Corporate is a Microsoft stockholder and doesn't mind greasing the wheels that his investment runs on.
So Joe Corporate keeps buying Microsoft, and once things get rolling in a large company, they tend not to stop until paradigms shift. Windows wasn't an overnight hit. It took them years to become the business world's standard. I believe that the PC world will be completely different before another company can claim the same that Microsoft can. Maybe we'll all be living in Scott McNealy's dream world, where everyone owns JavaStation NC's feeding off Solaris servers. Maybe it will be something I can't even imagine. Who knows? But I am certain that the drive to get us there is the same thing that drove the Wintel duopoly to lead us into the current PC age: unabashed greed.
Microsoft is firmly entrenched in corporate culture. The only way that Linuxers have hope of taking market share is if they can clearly, calmly, and unconditionally show that Linux is better for a job. Today. It's possible that it can, but not after the next paradigm shift. I love Linux, but the OS is a hack of commercial UNIX, and the window managers are poor copies of old Apple, NeXT, and Windows designs. If Linux is going to be a part of the next wave, it's not going to look anything like it does know. Maybe we should stop worrying about POSIX and go for straight-out, good-old-fashioned innovation.
I, for one, don't give a fig whether my OS is running a microkernel, nor how religiously it sticks to the tenants of uK design. I want something that works, and once I've filtered out the ones that don't work, I want the one left that give the best price.
That's the whole basis of my argument: use the right tool for the job. NT can do a lot that Linux cannot, and vice-versa. Zealotry has made much of this site's patrons blind to that fact.
So, only the techno-elite are allowed to hold opinions, eh?
Not at all. But what percentage of those who claim that Windows is obsolete crap and that Linux is technically superior could begin to back up these statements? All I'm saying is: there will come a time, perhaps very soon, when Linux can compete, and IT professionals will as Linux users to explain it. It's best that we refine our arguments and opinions here, in a group of our peers, so that we're prepared to answer those quesions. My advice is not to make such claims unless you can back them up, for when you are asked to represent our causes at your company because you have said such things, answering with "b1ll g473z sUZ0rz!!" is going to us great harm.
I think that after another five years the current crop of OSes will begin to stagnate, and OS R&D will become a big deal again. Of course I'm just speculating, but my guess is as good as anyone else's. I think that in the immediate post-2.4 hype, we need to reorganize our efforts and go all out. We should be doing our advocacy basic-training now.
In conclusion: everyone is entitled to an opinion, but as the spokesman for our favorite little OS, we must be prepared to back our opinions up with documented facts and proper research and analysis. If we want Linux to succeed before some other OS comes and steals our hype.
And even if the grass-roots FUD becomes as bad as the commercial-grade FUD... well, that would be nothing more nor less than poetic justice. What comes around goes around, and all that. If the company that killed DR-DOS with FUD died by FUD in turn, will the angels weep? No, not unless they own MSFT or do all their work in VB.
The DR-DOS story is a crying shame, but they knew they game they were playing. Ain't no pity in the naked city. The ruthless company is the company that profits, makes shareholders happy, and survives to the next year. Many say that Microsoft is an evil monopoly, but others might say they just played the game too well.
Well, not really... we were in a men's rest stop at the time, and I was understandably distracted. But we all (all 46 of us) said things that we didn't mean that night, so I'm not one to hold it against Ballman. Did I say Ballman? I meant Stallman.
Oooh, good idea. It might not go over as well with the regular BSD crowd, but it would sell like mad. Just think of all the Mac users who will be upgrading, and some of them may want to learn the CLI stuff, now that they have an OS where it's really useful. I didn't even think of that.
Don't tell anyone, but I used to evangelize the exact same thing. I gave up when replies consisted of nothing but flames saying that I was responsible for ther perception of BSD users as snobby and elitist.
I love Japan. Did you know that they have a BSD magazine?! I really wish I could read Japanese. Oh well; ANSI C is a universal language.:)
Japan has never been held under Wintel's iron grip. There's even a competing format over there, called PC98. Consequently, "alternative" OSes such as FreeBSD have done quite well there. Proof is that FreeBSD comes with PC98 support and lots of Japanese language software.
I recently watched a translated "mainstream" Japanese movie, and I started laughing out loud when I heard someone in the movie say, "He's so dumb! He can't even use Windows!" LOL!!! Man, I really gotta learn Japanese and get the hell over there. I can put up with xenophobia and beatings if there are half as many clueless lusers...
Otaku might remember the episode of Magical Girl Sasami with the scary Bill Gates guy. Well, they didn't say he was Gates, but he was an American software mogul who tried to push his crappy OS onto everyone, and he was a scrawny white guy with short reddish-brown hair and glasses. Close enough for me.
All modern commercial Unices are SVR4. GNU/Linux, based on POSIX, is more SVR4-like, but is really a mongrel whose command syntax is usually a mesh of both, with stuff of its own added in. Regardless, the kernel structure is close enough to SVR4 to be considered such.
POSIX is the official standard which defines UNIX (as in the trademarked, licensed kind). A POSIX OS is essentially the same thing as SVR4. Close enough for this discussion, anyway.
Read my other response in this thread for more info.
I think you're trying to start a flamewar, but that's irrelevant. The answer is: BSD4.4-lite. BSD Unix was born in the early Eighties, when the CSRG at Berkeley got hold of Unix. (Shortly after its birth at Bell Labs, many Universities were allowed to use it for research and educational purposes. Much of this development made its way back into the official code.) The CSRG did developed much of what Unix is today, from vi and the C Shell, to Unix TCP/IP.
Yes, TCP/IP. Back when ARPANet was being developed, DARPA needed an OS implementation of TCP/IP to work with. Thus, they funded Berkeley CSRG during the mid-late Eighties, and BSD is intricately tied to the roots of the Internet.
TCP/IP made its way back to AT&T, along with a lot else. Even with the commercial proprietary OS boom of the Eighties, there was much code sharing, and so the many Unices never got too far apart. Obviously the major reason for this is they all had to license it from AT&T.;-)
System V, Revision 4 (SVR4) brought together the best of the Unix world, and while based largely on AT&T's UNIX, also includes a lot of BSDish stuff. Other companies' work was used as well, including pieces of Xenix. SVR4 is POSIX, what your beloved GNU/Linux is based upon.
SRV4 is the "modern" UNIX base, used in all commercial UNIX OSes. (Solaris, AIX, Irix, HP-UX, et cetera.) A note on Solaris: SunOS (as it was originally known) was formerly BSD based; not surprising, considering that Bill Joy is its father. But Sun switched to SVR4 in the late Eighties/early Nineties, and it has been known since as Solaris. Solaris 8 is really Solaris 2.8, which is SunOS 5.8. (Look at your Solaris bootlog...)
In the early Nineties, the original Berkeley CSRG was ready to call it quits. Before they did, they wanted to release their complete modern OS codebase to the community, as 4.4BSD. But there were still lingering pieces of UNIX code in BSD, which were removed after a series of messy lawsuits. The commercial code was rewritten, and the OS, now completely free, was released as 4.4BSD-Lite.
This codebase, whose history goes back to the very beginnings of UNIX itself, was adopted by several groups of developers who wanted to revive BSD Unix. The two most successful were FreeBSD, who concentrate on being the most advanced BSD Unix for the x86 arhictecture, and NetBSD, whose goal seems to be to run BSD on every processor ever designed.:) Not long ago, a disgruntled BSD developer forked the NetBSD code and created OpenBSD, an OS with tons of cool integrated cryto-nrrd stuff, which is famous as being perhaps the most secure network OS currently in use.
So, to the point, all *BSD OSes are based on the 4.4BSD-lite code which was the Berkeley CSRG's final work.
The BSD which you forgot to ask about is BSDi. BSDi is a commercial BSD company, whose board of directors includes a few original CSRG members (I believe). BSDi recently purchased FreeBSD's distributor and will be merging the codebases. The best news to come so far of this is that FreeBSD will finally have a native Java2 development kit.
Good point. And GNU/Linux users may not know this, but to su to root on a BSD box, you must be part of the 'wheel' group. (Extra levels of security never hurt, right?) I believe I posted a poem about this (possibly while on a caffeine overload) with another UID a few months ago. Bonus point to anyone who finds it!;-p
Slashdot Mirror
(Like GAMES!! =)
That said, I agree completely. :) I'd love to have a G4 too, just to sit on while I read the paper. I'd also like a pony.
---------///----------
I wasn't talking about Linux as software, I was talking about Linux as a culture. And since you are a self-described old-timer, I refuse to believe that you never yearn for the closely knit scenes of yesteryear.
I never said the scenes were ruined. Just... different. And while I try to welcome change, I don't forget the past.
And FYI, many of us are still watching the crappy fansubs, seeing as how the "high quality" subbed releases are two or three years behind the current Japanese scene. Rurouni Kenshin was just finally released by a US distributor, under the ridiculous name of "Samurai X". Fanboys have had the entire series and both movies on fifth-generation dubs since last year. :) It's as new to the American mainstream as Linux is... Linux is a brand new, revolutionary OS, right? LOL.
Your post almost succeeds, but the pathetic "poor baby" is just too trollish to be considered anything else but a sad troll. Try again next time... maybe one day, you'll learn to flame like a real old-timer. ;p
I wasn't looking for a confrontation. Chill out and stop being to hostile -- it's only Stashdot, right?
(wink.)
---------///----------
Yes, but if he had read the article, he wouldn't have gotten firsties. It's a question of priority. :)
---------///----------
---------///----------
As for developing a "real sense of individuality", I think I've done quite well in that regard in my lifetime. I know who you're confusing me with, though. Sorry, I'm not a groupie. Perhaps you'd have more success trolling the UF forum.
The same thing is beginning to happen to the GNU/Linux scene. Maybe in five years, kind AC, you'll know how I feel.
Dammit, this happens to everything I've ever been in to. I've learned to ride the wave. But I'm not looking forward to it.
---------///----------
So I'm curious if maybe your old company were responsible.
---------///----------
Maybe this is why I stopped watching TV. Leave it to my dumb luck to turn on the telly for the first time in three months and see that.
If I ever see anything I really love on American TV, like Shinseiki Evangelion or Serial/Visual Experiments Lain, I'm throwing the TV out the window and moving to the UK. Hey, otaku, remember when we were just another breed of comic-book freaks? Ahhhh, those were the days... I never had to worry about it gaining "acceptance" (if you can really call the whirlwind rape and pillage that is a 90's American fad "acceptance") . . .
And FYI, Taco, you dumbfuck, Ryoko never "morphed" into anything. You just saw the first half of the first episode, right? Don't try and sound familiar with someting you're not. You're starting to sound like Katz. What's up?
---------///----------
So, you see, the wheel is greased even if the software is "free".
---------///----------
---------///----------
Us: "Hey, IBM, JDK1.3 for FreeBSD?"
Them: "We've already released RPMs, and have no plans to develop for BSD Linux."
Grrrrr... fuckers. Ten years ago, when BSD meant something, I could have had someone shot for saying that.
---------///----------
Yeah, keeping with that theme, cutting off the advertisement-end of every MP3 is akin to a bris.
Btw, IANAR. (I am not a rabbi.)
---------///----------
We trolled Sun's Java RFE page for months trying to get something like this. The FreeBSD/Java 2 RFE was number one, by over 300%, for half a year, and I never heard one peep of response from Sun. Recently we started in on IBM Alphaworks, and at least they were honest enough to tell us that they had no plans to do Java work for FreeBSD.
I think that with BSDi's backing, the current work done by the FreeBSD team, and the available Blackdown code, December isn't too soon to hope for. Alas, I was forced to stop Java development in FreeBSD in March. A year behind the current technology is just too much. I now do Java work from Linux and NT.
---------///----------
GNU/Linux does things its own way, but you can definitely see that the kernel and much of the low-level system stuff takes its hints from SVR4. The BSD influence is there, but much weaker. I will stand by my statement that if Linux had to choose a side of the fence, it'd be SVR4.
And while AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, et cetera all have their eccentricities and quirks, the important thing is that they're certified with the modern UNIX standards, so there's a great deal that they're guaranteed to have in common.
I love my FreeBSD boxen, but I believe that SVR4 and POSIX managed to integrate the best of BSD, and that any groundbreaking BSD development these days won't mean much. Of course, I hope I'm proven wrong. In the meantime, I'll try to straddle the fence as best I can, as I always have.
---------///----------
---------///----------
And my point is that for Linux to succeed, we'll have to forget our ethics. Not to be too mean, but only lifelong academics like Stallman can afford to debate the ethics of it all. Like I said in another post from this thread, business users don't give a damn about Microsoft's anticompetitive business practices unless it affects their bottom line. Sad but true. I suppose that being technology enthusiasts, we can afford to debate too. But market share is what we need to succeed, and ethical arguments are all but useless to your boss. Does it work better, cheaper than NT? Tell us how and why. Tell us how it compares in terms of hardware costs. Tell us what the necessary steps and costs are for installation, training, and maintainence. Tell us how compatible it is with our other systems. Tell us what support options are available. Tell us this and tell us that. Don't even mention any ethical shit to your boss unless you're prepared to answer all that and more. In fact, I recommend not mentioning the "free" nature at all. And, God help you, don't mention the GPL. Tell him it's a high-performace, low-cost Unix-like OS that gets very respectable results on low-cost hardware. Tell him it's a big thing and the industry is abuzz and there's more hardware and software support every day. Tell him it has a industry-standard C compiler, support for Java 2, and features the most popular web server in the world. (Leave the more bitter truth for later.) Tell him that IBM, Oracle, and Sun Microsystems have been supporting Linux. And if your boss is more technical, feel free to blab on for hours about finely-grained kernel locking, software RAID, and support for tons of filesystems, et cetera. Just don't give him a blank look and stutter, "Uhh... Bill Gates sucks and, uh, Microsoft is a monopoly, and, uh, Linux is elite and I am an elite hacker, and uh, MP3s and wares."
Please.
Usually I'm not so feverent (or I try not to be) but lately I've had the nagging feeling that if Linux is going to "make it" in the business world, we have to get off our asses now. Drop the childish attitudes and just make it happen. For such an intelligent and determined group of people, it shouldn't be as hard as Microsoft would like us to think.
I prefer to think that neither of us is too full of shit.---------///----------
I'm an equal-opportunity geek, and I'm for using the right tool for the job. I wouldn't serve a high-traffic e-commerce site from the J2EE test server any more than I would install Linux as a PHB's desktop OS. I wouldn't recommend Visual Basic for numerical analysis, and I wouldn't recommend Perl for coding a 3D flight sim. Every tool has a place, and every tool should be in its place. NT has place just like Linux does.
Don't diss NT because it's from Microsoft. For Linux to succeed in the business world, its users must realize the fact that ethics don't mean anything. The greed for profit breeds a ruthlessness that is what helps large companies survive. Joe Corporate couldn't give a damn what Microsoft does unless it directly affects their profits. And for 99% of companies, it doesn't, at least directly. Joe Corporate buys Microsoft because the users need less training, the admins are easy to find and can be paid less, and because he has the assurance that Microsoft isn't going anywhere. Sure, the software licensing is expensive as hell, but in the end the cost is put on their customers. And maybe Joe Corporate is a Microsoft stockholder and doesn't mind greasing the wheels that his investment runs on.
So Joe Corporate keeps buying Microsoft, and once things get rolling in a large company, they tend not to stop until paradigms shift. Windows wasn't an overnight hit. It took them years to become the business world's standard. I believe that the PC world will be completely different before another company can claim the same that Microsoft can. Maybe we'll all be living in Scott McNealy's dream world, where everyone owns JavaStation NC's feeding off Solaris servers. Maybe it will be something I can't even imagine. Who knows? But I am certain that the drive to get us there is the same thing that drove the Wintel duopoly to lead us into the current PC age: unabashed greed.
Microsoft is firmly entrenched in corporate culture. The only way that Linuxers have hope of taking market share is if they can clearly, calmly, and unconditionally show that Linux is better for a job. Today. It's possible that it can, but not after the next paradigm shift. I love Linux, but the OS is a hack of commercial UNIX, and the window managers are poor copies of old Apple, NeXT, and Windows designs. If Linux is going to be a part of the next wave, it's not going to look anything like it does know. Maybe we should stop worrying about POSIX and go for straight-out, good-old-fashioned innovation.
That's the whole basis of my argument: use the right tool for the job. NT can do a lot that Linux cannot, and vice-versa. Zealotry has made much of this site's patrons blind to that fact.Not at all. But what percentage of those who claim that Windows is obsolete crap and that Linux is technically superior could begin to back up these statements? All I'm saying is: there will come a time, perhaps very soon, when Linux can compete, and IT professionals will as Linux users to explain it. It's best that we refine our arguments and opinions here, in a group of our peers, so that we're prepared to answer those quesions. My advice is not to make such claims unless you can back them up, for when you are asked to represent our causes at your company because you have said such things, answering with "b1ll g473z sUZ0rz!!" is going to us great harm.
I think that after another five years the current crop of OSes will begin to stagnate, and OS R&D will become a big deal again. Of course I'm just speculating, but my guess is as good as anyone else's. I think that in the immediate post-2.4 hype, we need to reorganize our efforts and go all out. We should be doing our advocacy basic-training now.
In conclusion: everyone is entitled to an opinion, but as the spokesman for our favorite little OS, we must be prepared to back our opinions up with documented facts and proper research and analysis. If we want Linux to succeed before some other OS comes and steals our hype.
The DR-DOS story is a crying shame, but they knew they game they were playing. Ain't no pity in the naked city. The ruthless company is the company that profits, makes shareholders happy, and survives to the next year. Many say that Microsoft is an evil monopoly, but others might say they just played the game too well.
I am in quite the ranting mood today, eh?
---------///----------
---------///----------
---------///----------
---------///----------
---------///----------
But it's true. ^_^
---------///----------
Japan has never been held under Wintel's iron grip. There's even a competing format over there, called PC98. Consequently, "alternative" OSes such as FreeBSD have done quite well there. Proof is that FreeBSD comes with PC98 support and lots of Japanese language software.
I recently watched a translated "mainstream" Japanese movie, and I started laughing out loud when I heard someone in the movie say, "He's so dumb! He can't even use Windows!" LOL!!! Man, I really gotta learn Japanese and get the hell over there. I can put up with xenophobia and beatings if there are half as many clueless lusers...
Otaku might remember the episode of Magical Girl Sasami with the scary Bill Gates guy. Well, they didn't say he was Gates, but he was an American software mogul who tried to push his crappy OS onto everyone, and he was a scrawny white guy with short reddish-brown hair and glasses. Close enough for me.
---------///----------
POSIX is the official standard which defines UNIX (as in the trademarked, licensed kind). A POSIX OS is essentially the same thing as SVR4. Close enough for this discussion, anyway.
Read my other response in this thread for more info.
---------///----------
Yes, TCP/IP. Back when ARPANet was being developed, DARPA needed an OS implementation of TCP/IP to work with. Thus, they funded Berkeley CSRG during the mid-late Eighties, and BSD is intricately tied to the roots of the Internet.
TCP/IP made its way back to AT&T, along with a lot else. Even with the commercial proprietary OS boom of the Eighties, there was much code sharing, and so the many Unices never got too far apart. Obviously the major reason for this is they all had to license it from AT&T. ;-)
System V, Revision 4 (SVR4) brought together the best of the Unix world, and while based largely on AT&T's UNIX, also includes a lot of BSDish stuff. Other companies' work was used as well, including pieces of Xenix. SVR4 is POSIX, what your beloved GNU/Linux is based upon.
SRV4 is the "modern" UNIX base, used in all commercial UNIX OSes. (Solaris, AIX, Irix, HP-UX, et cetera.) A note on Solaris: SunOS (as it was originally known) was formerly BSD based; not surprising, considering that Bill Joy is its father. But Sun switched to SVR4 in the late Eighties/early Nineties, and it has been known since as Solaris. Solaris 8 is really Solaris 2.8, which is SunOS 5.8. (Look at your Solaris bootlog...)
In the early Nineties, the original Berkeley CSRG was ready to call it quits. Before they did, they wanted to release their complete modern OS codebase to the community, as 4.4BSD. But there were still lingering pieces of UNIX code in BSD, which were removed after a series of messy lawsuits. The commercial code was rewritten, and the OS, now completely free, was released as 4.4BSD-Lite.
This codebase, whose history goes back to the very beginnings of UNIX itself, was adopted by several groups of developers who wanted to revive BSD Unix. The two most successful were FreeBSD, who concentrate on being the most advanced BSD Unix for the x86 arhictecture, and NetBSD, whose goal seems to be to run BSD on every processor ever designed. :) Not long ago, a disgruntled BSD developer forked the NetBSD code and created OpenBSD, an OS with tons of cool integrated cryto-nrrd stuff, which is famous as being perhaps the most secure network OS currently in use.
So, to the point, all *BSD OSes are based on the 4.4BSD-lite code which was the Berkeley CSRG's final work.
The BSD which you forgot to ask about is BSDi. BSDi is a commercial BSD company, whose board of directors includes a few original CSRG members (I believe). BSDi recently purchased FreeBSD's distributor and will be merging the codebases. The best news to come so far of this is that FreeBSD will finally have a native Java2 development kit.
---------///----------
---------///----------