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Tim O'Reilly Confirms BSD Publications
InfoMonk writes: "I attended a library conference over the weekend. Tim O'Reilly spoke at a presentation on Open Source Software for libraries. After the conference I asked him about the long running interest in O'Reilly putting out BSD publications. He confirmed that two projects are currently in development, the expected BSD in a Nutshell and another book whose subject is not yet clear. This is very good news of course, to BSD hackers who are slightly tired of the press coverage that Linux has been given in the past year."
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I like to watch.
Take that Tux
It is interesting to note that in the Apache book the authors used BSD for all of their examples very friendly towards BSD. Now the OT question. I'm looking at starting to learn openbsd any suggestions on a good book?
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Yes, TCP/IP. Back when ARPANet was being developed, DARPA needed an OS implementation of TCP/IP to work with. Thus, they funded Berkeley CSRG during the mid-late Eighties, and BSD is intricately tied to the roots of the Internet.
TCP/IP made its way back to AT&T, along with a lot else. Even with the commercial proprietary OS boom of the Eighties, there was much code sharing, and so the many Unices never got too far apart. Obviously the major reason for this is they all had to license it from AT&T. ;-)
System V, Revision 4 (SVR4) brought together the best of the Unix world, and while based largely on AT&T's UNIX, also includes a lot of BSDish stuff. Other companies' work was used as well, including pieces of Xenix. SVR4 is POSIX, what your beloved GNU/Linux is based upon.
SRV4 is the "modern" UNIX base, used in all commercial UNIX OSes. (Solaris, AIX, Irix, HP-UX, et cetera.) A note on Solaris: SunOS (as it was originally known) was formerly BSD based; not surprising, considering that Bill Joy is its father. But Sun switched to SVR4 in the late Eighties/early Nineties, and it has been known since as Solaris. Solaris 8 is really Solaris 2.8, which is SunOS 5.8. (Look at your Solaris bootlog...)
In the early Nineties, the original Berkeley CSRG was ready to call it quits. Before they did, they wanted to release their complete modern OS codebase to the community, as 4.4BSD. But there were still lingering pieces of UNIX code in BSD, which were removed after a series of messy lawsuits. The commercial code was rewritten, and the OS, now completely free, was released as 4.4BSD-Lite.
This codebase, whose history goes back to the very beginnings of UNIX itself, was adopted by several groups of developers who wanted to revive BSD Unix. The two most successful were FreeBSD, who concentrate on being the most advanced BSD Unix for the x86 arhictecture, and NetBSD, whose goal seems to be to run BSD on every processor ever designed. :) Not long ago, a disgruntled BSD developer forked the NetBSD code and created OpenBSD, an OS with tons of cool integrated cryto-nrrd stuff, which is famous as being perhaps the most secure network OS currently in use.
So, to the point, all *BSD OSes are based on the 4.4BSD-lite code which was the Berkeley CSRG's final work.
The BSD which you forgot to ask about is BSDi. BSDi is a commercial BSD company, whose board of directors includes a few original CSRG members (I believe). BSDi recently purchased FreeBSD's distributor and will be merging the codebases. The best news to come so far of this is that FreeBSD will finally have a native Java2 development kit.
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i agree with you, i was just answering your question :)
-- http://electronicintifada.net --
Although the "other" book mentioned is probably not what I'm thinking of, I think ORA should do a MacOS X-oriented BSD book -- basically something that relates the command-line tools and the use of the filesytems (Macintosh HFS, BSD UFS) to the rest of MacOS X, and perhaps some material on how MacOS X's configuration design differs from traditional BSD.
That's the important part.
-bugg
POSIX is the official standard which defines UNIX (as in the trademarked, licensed kind). A POSIX OS is essentially the same thing as SVR4. Close enough for this discussion, anyway.
Read my other response in this thread for more info.
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It already happened anyway, long ago.. it is called Windows Nt or something like that.
So what he says is not really unprovable...
Linux runs on Alpha, PPC, Amiga, and god knows what else. Name a single plat that BSD runs on but Linux does not, and I could probably send you a link to the linux distro that does work on that platform.
hehe this one should be moderated up as funny.
this space for rent
Howard, I thought you'd be an expert in Hebrew not Latin ;-)
So now you have to sink to racism that isn't even accurate?
Posted by BSD-Pat:
Thanks Rob for the more agressive BSD coverage on Slashdot.
It amazes me how many people can't just co-exist peacefully. I use Linux at work, I prefer BSD. I've spent countless hours working with BSD.
BSD runs the pr0n industry too! =)
Anyway, my point is, can't we all just get along? At USENIX this year, Nik Clayton and I hung out with many Linux oriented people (including Stephen Tweedie and Theodore T'so) and had interesting coversations with them, ranging from SMP to filesystems, etc.
If the people at the forefront of these communities can get along, share information, even socialize with each other, what's so wrong with Slashdot readers getting along?
We use FreeBSD for firewalling at Andover, it works EXTREMELY well, slashdot's been fast, survived several DoS attacks (of which people barely noticed)
We also run the back end on Linux, we've got some plans in the works for some OpenBSD too....
Use what's best for the situation, this isn't some religious argument.
This coming from the Devil's Advocate.....
-Pat
Surprise surprise, BSD books coming to O'Reilly... and MacOS X coming out soon (public beta this summer, 1.0 for Macworld SF in January 2001).
MacOS X will mean a lot of Mac developpers/IT people needing to get BSD books. That's quite a market.
From where I sit, there's no denying that the total number of BSD users is growing. Saying that "BSD continues to bleed market share" is another way of lying with statistics. For example, if the BSD market is growing at a 10% rate then the BSD market is pretty healthy, even if other market segments like Linux are growing faster.
Do you have any statistics at all that the number of BSD users is diminishing? If not then don't bring it up. This isn't television and the Nielson ratings. BSD won't get cancelled for being rated number two in the minds of newbies. Unix veterans do not abandon their favorite OS just because the Netwatch numbers are low.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
And lest we forget, would you be so kind as to explain what is this pollution that you keep talking about? Final question: are you a programmer?
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
thats not the point. my point was that linux is portable !!! its not more portable than netBSD but another thing
-- http://electronicintifada.net --
I can see how a little resentment can creep into the most level-headed individual when things like political, religious or operating system choice are at play.
This "resentment" does not necessarily stem from ideological sources, or even disappointment that one's favorite OS is not number one. Rather, a lot of it arises from Linux bigotry. Hear me out!
It's extrememly frustrating when Linux is reported as being the only free OS. It's doubly frustrating when even those who know better say the same thing. For example, many applications written for X that use no OS system calls are advertised as "for Linux".
Walk into any given bookstore and the odds are high that you'll find open source related books under the heading of "Linux".
In terms of O'Reilly books, Tim said once upon a time that he would not publish a BSD book because it would be redundant. Yet there exists multiple redundant Linux books. How redundant is "Learning Debian GNU/Linux" coupled with "Learning Redhat Linux". For really eye-opening redundancy, check out the content of "Linux in a Nutshell" and "Unix in a Nutshell".
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
The GPL is a little restrictive, but only to those who wish to take and not give back.
What is restrictive is that I have to give back in *exactly* the way that you demand. I am not allowed to make the license more free. I am not allowed to make the license more bullet-proof. Hell, I can't even write a program that links to a 100% free library like Qt without putting in a disclaimer.
There is a large difference between charity and taxation, between donations and fees, and between sharing and surrendering.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Several months ago the bay area BSD users group (I don't remember the name, if someone else would like to add to the details in this post, please go for it) had a meeting topic of 'BSD vs Linux' (it might have been FreeBSD vs Linux, I don't recall)
Originally it was supposed to be a head to head comparison of Linux vs (Free?)BSD -- winner take all, or so I was gathering.
What happened was that it came out that both OSes have their strengths, both have their weaknesses. Both sides often argue the 'point' with old information. Yes linux has better 'newbie support' and more hardware support, and *BSD degrades more gracefully under load and has nifty better things in the kernel. What ended up coming out was more of a sense of cooperation, than a bloody war..why this should be such a surprise I don't know.
In other words, use the right tool for the job.
Anyone who was there want to add their comments? I'll grant my memory might be fuzzy, it was a bit back.
In any case, I think that Linux popularity has been a good thing for Unixes in general and Freenixes in particular (how many Unix [of any flavor] users under the age of, say, 25, at least in the U.S., got their start on a Linux system?) and I do think that it's been a shame that *BSD has sort of been the neglected child. One would think there would be enough room for both.
All signs of sharing and cooperation are welcome. However, it seems to me that soon the Linux and BSD communities are headed to a de facto total divorce, although this will be denied for a while.
h tml. True right now there are many statements about how there will be upward compatible migration paths for different filesystems and even operating systems, but I see no way to avoid eventual nonportability of information between ReiserFS and other filesystems.
The instrument of this in my opinion will be the inclusion of ReiserFS as part of an official stable Linux kernel. From what I have read from various mailing lists such as those at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=reiserfs&r=1&w=2 and Debian, ReiserFS will only be licensed for free operating systems under the GPL. In my opinion this means that ReiserFS will never be part of the base distributions of the free source BSDs.
I believe that in five years ReiserFS will be the default file system for most Linux distributions. Of course ordinarily with Unix associated filesystems the particular one does not matter all that much for data interchangeability, but ReiserFS is but a small part of Hans Reiser's rather persuasive and exciting vision http://devlinux.com/projects/reiserfs/whitepaper.
And that's when the total break will occur. ReiserFS is getting support right now from some of the heavyweights such as SuSE, which means that there will be a high degree of integration between ReiserFS and the distributions. Conversely if ReiserFS isn't part of the base free source BSD distributions, it will not enjoy those communities' professional quality integration efforts.
In my opinion the free source community would have been better off a while ago adopting a common stance for open implementable standards regardless of GPL, BSD, or MIT X licensing, but that window of opportunity of probably past.
can someone please explain me why this guy was marked as troll ?
-- http://electronicintifada.net --
As a recent newbie to linux, the oreilly books actually helped me make Linux into a productive environment, and i still find them good reference.
I hope that the BSD book does the same.
free 31337 translation onthis link
{shhhhh... the froggies are asleep.}
spam-proofing?
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Still no answer to
"Please show me a Linux distribution (yes distribution, no gross kernel hacks) with a unified, clean source tree complete with all the platforms in the tree."
The emphasis is on all.
And I doubt that Debian/arm is as complete as Debian/i386...
It's like the long running IT joke, isn't it? Computer systems would work a lot better without the 'pollution' of users!!
Humour is subjective.
Well, I'd be willing to bet that most BSD people would welcome additional growth to the community. After all, BSD thereby gets more users, attracts more developers, and gains more/better software. With the increasing popularity of Linux -- or if I may, free UNIX -- I can only see growth as inevitable as *BSD gets swept up in the whole thing.
However, there's something to be said when you've got such a small, tight community as the BSD communities. Take the FreeBSD community, for instance. It's decidedly the largest group of *BSD afficionados out there, but it's still tiny compared to the Linux community. You can still get in touch with all of the main hackers. Greg Lehey, who wrote the book on FreeBSD (that is, literally the one printed book), still participates on several of the official mailing lists and answers when contacted by e-mail. I'm a complete nobody in the FreeBSD community, but I've talked (e-mail) with Greg many times.
Let us savor these things, us BSD people, because like it or not, the times they are a-changin'. I hope we can be as good big as we have been small
Washington, DC: It's like Hollywood for ugly people.
The next BSD disaster at O'Reilly was the death of the 4.4 BSD series manuals. I was at a flea market a couple years ago and some guy had a pile about a cubic yard in size of these manuals. They were going for a dollar each and he couldn't give them away. They did have their front covers ripped off but these books were originally over 120 dollars for the set. There they were in this crummy Sebastopol flea market for sale--a dollar each and no takers.
Does anyone think that O'Reilly will make any money off another failed attempt to publish BSD material? There isn't a market for it. After the first hundred zealots buy it, wait a few months a pick it up at Midgley's Flea Market in Sebastopol.
You're logged in too, for extra bonus points. But you're not quite there. Nice try, the effort's noticed, but you're still trolling.
He made a valid point. Between the Walnut Creek boot and UNIX in a nutshell, I have all I need to maintain my FreeBSD server.
I once made a joke with my co-authors, we could right FreeBSD in a Nutshell with an OCR'ed copy of UNIX in a Nutshell and sed.
George
Japan has never been held under Wintel's iron grip. There's even a competing format over there, called PC98. Consequently, "alternative" OSes such as FreeBSD have done quite well there. Proof is that FreeBSD comes with PC98 support and lots of Japanese language software.
I recently watched a translated "mainstream" Japanese movie, and I started laughing out loud when I heard someone in the movie say, "He's so dumb! He can't even use Windows!" LOL!!! Man, I really gotta learn Japanese and get the hell over there. I can put up with xenophobia and beatings if there are half as many clueless lusers...
Otaku might remember the episode of Magical Girl Sasami with the scary Bill Gates guy. Well, they didn't say he was Gates, but he was an American software mogul who tried to push his crappy OS onto everyone, and he was a scrawny white guy with short reddish-brown hair and glasses. Close enough for me.
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But it's true. ^_^
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How to get a complete set: 1) get the distro; 2) crank the docs through 'troff'
wha?
Then, having achieved a beachhead, BSD can start to push deeper into Linux territory.
guh?
i don't know man. maybe DEBIAN should put everybody's favourite MICROSOFT kernel into their os and call it DEBIAN WINDOWS. or wait, take QNX kernel, put it in DR-DOS and port MS OFFICE to it eh? we'd sweep through the Windows territory like Rommel through North Africa! how poetic.
I agree that this is a very good thing in general. One of the problems I see with Linux being so touted is that organizational users feel more comfortable using Linux now, not because they have tested it and find it to be a superior operating system, but frequently because it is so popular. Possibly if there were more press on BSD variants, those same people would see how stable they are and make a more informed decision.
While it's great to see a book on BSD in a nutshell - I can't really see what the requirement for it is. Unix in a Nutshell is an excellent resource, and as a FreeBSD user, The FreeBSD Handbook (available from Walnut Creek never strays far from my desk.
I will move to Linux when it is as stable as FreeBSD, or as secure as OpenBSD, or as portable as NetBSD, or as free as any of them. Linux has a long way to come in the fields that matter most to me.
My understanding is that FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD are different systems, from the kernel and upwards.
Do they have things in common between them (but different to commercial Unix and Linux)?
In other words would this book contain all the things that people can find in any Unix/Linux, or are there features present in the 3 BSDs that are not present elsewhere?
This sounds more like the user doesn't know Latin. etc translates best to, "and the rest."
Even if he did say that - it's totally offtopic.
As linux became more mainstream, many moaned about various changes that took place within both the system, and the community that surrounds it. Do people really want this to happen to BSD as well?
just wondering...
Why on earth is anyone surprised that a company whose first successful product was the 4.4BSD documentation, and whose headquarters is but a wee bit up the bay from Berkeley, should belly up to the table with a concise handbook to one of the most useful operating systems of our time?
;-)
Oh wait, it isn't GPLed, it must not be any good...
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
How utterly weird! I seem to be running Netscape Communicator 4.73 under FreeBSD without using Linux mode. Is 4.73 now considered outdated? If so, then I am doomed to always being outdated because I can't keep up faster than this.
But just what do you mean by "no native apps". Do you mean apps that are available *only* for FreeBSD? If so, then even Linux has an extreme dearth of applications. I don't know what FreeBSD you've used, but mine currently has Gimp, XEmacs, gcc, KDE, xmms, ssh, and hundreds more applications installed. And and I have several thousand more packages and ports available to run under FreeBSD natively. If I remember correctly, the precompiled packages that come with FreeBSD 4.0 number around 1500 or so. The ports collection contains many, many more.
But if you're talking about native closed-source or proprietary commercial software, then there's only about a dozen or so. So I guess you're right. When it comes to what RMS calls subjugating and dominating software that takes away your rights, then Linux has BSD beat hands down!
p.s. You are right about Acrobat though, my goof...
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Do you have any statistics at all indicating that the total number of BSD users is declining? Any at all? I didn't think so... Why won't you give us your statistics and their source? Why do you insist on hiding behind AC?
As for the number of native FreeBSD apps, the numbers are in the thousands. KDE, GNOME, Enlightenment, Netscape, Acrobat, gcc, emacs, sendmail, bind, xmms, and the list goes on and on. Maybe you don't realize it but any open source unix application that doesn't use kernel-specific system calls and otherwise follows common standards will compile under FreeBSD. For a closed source app, the manufacturer needs only recompile.
Spend a few minutes browsing through the ports collection to understand how utterly stupid your post really is. FreeBSD has a linux emulation mode but I've never had to use it yet.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Walk into any medium-to-large bookstore in Japan. You'll find, n the Computer section, several shelves of Unix-related books. Among them, you will see many along the lines of "Build a Linux server", "Play with Linux", etc. etc. You will also see a nearly equivalent number of *BSD-related publications, everything from "Running MacBSD-68K" to "OpenBSD Security". There are beginners' books and weighty tomes on BSD kernel internals. And all this in a country with a population of half that of the US, and which is basically unable to export books to other countries because of the expense involved in translation (not to mention the "lag time" it adds).
My question is, "Why hasn't O'Reilly already published BSD books?" There's certainly enough potential interest to make it worth their while if they can put out books on Lego, f'Chrissakes.
These people are not stupid, they are using Linux because it fits the job they are deploying it for.
Of course they're not stupid. They use the OS best suited for the job. In some cases that will be Linux. In others it will be Solaris or AIX. Still others use BSD.
I really don't understand the point of this. What difference does it make to BSD if somebody is using Linux instead? Is this some sort of all or nothing warfare where there can only be one winner? BSD never set a goal for world domination. Such an idea is abhorrent to it. That eleetist attitude belongs to Linux and Windows.
What Linux lacked from the beginning is the eleetist attitude that some in BSD land are trying to get rid of.
You are right when you accuse BSD of having elitist subgroups. But you are equally wrong when you say that the Linux community does not have the same. Every operating system has its elitist and self righteous advocates. Some of the most elitist and arrogant OS folks I have met are Linux users. Just go to any Slashdot story about the release of any Linux distribution and you'll see it. Debian users have the only moral operating system, Slackware users have the one true distribution, Redhat users possess the real Linux standard, ad nauseum. They won't say it in so many words, but the elitist attitude is there and very visible.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
This is very good news of course, to BSD hackers who are slightly tired of the press coverage that Linux has been given in the past year.
I can see how a little resentment can creep into the most level-headed individual when things like political, religious or operating system choice are at play. Nevertheless, I see the mindshare gains acquired by Linux and Open Source over the past two years as a patently good thing for other- some, I'm sure, will argue, better- free Unices. A lot of organizations have, it seems, warmed to the idea that commercial software might not be only available option, and as they discover that viable alternatives exist to their, say, Windows-centric perspective, Linux will not be the only OS that will gain popularity simply because once shown the possibility of choice, one's point of view usually becomes quite a bit more flexible.
That said, the fact that a great number of closed-source ISVs only support Linux or even, commonly, one particular distribution, does irritate me immensely, as does the growing disregard for portability in Open Source software written by Linux users for Linux users.
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Violence is necessary, it is as American as cherry pie.
H. Rap Brown
Wow, so much false information, it's not even funny. First, it is Tim O'Rielly. Second, there is no Solaris in a Nutshell. Third, BSD was not a code fork from Solaris. BSD predates Solaris by ten years, even longer than Linux has existed.
> NetBSD is dying. Check out Usenet. The ratio of OpenBSD posts to NetBSD posts on Usenet is about
> 7:1. The sudden decline in NetBSD is awesome.
Because Usenet is dead. It's only used by spammers and perverts these days.
Everybody uses mailinglists now. Check out the mailinglist archives of OpenBSD and NetBSD. The ratio is more like 1:7.
So think twice before you hand this book to someone. Do you really want to deal with the consequences?
Typical Elitist troll garbage.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Humour is subjective.
So is the spelling of humour.
The slashdot audience is filled with geeks, and geeks don't quite get it when it comes to understanding why and how other people decide what to buy or install. I don't want to go into gory detail about this, but a good example is a guy a few months back who basically said he was waiting for strongarm chips in the Palm [Pilot] because they are better than the chips in there now. Hello? Is there any device that hides the chips more thoroughly than a Palm? It's sort of a twisted version of the Turing test: can you tell what kind of chip is in there? No? Good!
The reason I bring that example up is that kernels are the same way. If you think some *BSD kernel is great, then give me a "RedHat" distribution that has substituted the kernel you love for the linux kernel (call it "RedHot"). Wouldn't that be cool? I'll believe you that it's better, I'll install it, and it'll run better, and you and I will both be happier. Then, having achieved a beachhead, BSD can start to push deeper into Linux territory.
So, I know you hate the idea, but you can't say I'm not trying. Otherwise, BSD will be the world's best OS to languish in obscurity.
debian has x86, powerPC, sparc, alpha and one more (dont remember its name). those 5 platforms account for 99% of all hardware being used today.
-- http://electronicintifada.net --
'about time. FreeBSD is great and should get more press.
Small quibble: according to the creators of Plan 9, it isn't Unix-based, although it certainly takes ideas from Unix. They said that Plan 9 is what Unix would be, if they could do it all over again, having had the experience with Unix's wide-spread usage.
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Hear yea, hear yea!
This is Free Software, and that means freedom! And freedom is much too precious a thing to remain unregulated. Therefore all developers will get in line and do exactly what I say. In order to ensure the continuance of Free Software and Freedom, we must now eliminate the subversive notions of free will and free choice.
Remember, Arbeit Macht Frei!
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
there is a arm support!!! have you ever actully tryed any of these ? it seems to me that you have based your opinion on linux portability without even trying it.
here is a list of architectures debian is available for:
Contents-hurd-i386.gz --> x86 debian with hurd as kernel
Contents-sparc.gz@ --> sparc debian with linux as kernel
Contents-i386.gz@ --> x86 debian with linux as kernel
Contents-alpha.gz@ --> alpha debian with linux as kernel
Contents-m68k.gz@ --> m68k debian with linux as kernel
Contents-arm.gz --> arm debian with linux as kernel
Contents-powerpc.gz@ --> powerpc debian with linux as kernel
-- http://electronicintifada.net --
But they don't make this information public
... who is winning?
Then this information is pretty much useless then, isn't it? Stop citing statistics that you won't release.
But even if you did release them they wouldn't draw the conclusions you do. Because you don't have the faintest clue what "marketshare" even means.
Is BSD losing?
Marketshare has nothing whatsoever to do with winning or losing. This is not some Mayan game where the winners get to execute the losers. It ain't a game at all, especially not one of those zero-sum games beloved by the economically illiterate.
Let's look at a non-OS market like beverages Coca Cola and Pepsi have huge market shares while Royal Crown has very little. Does this mean that Royal Crown is a loser? Hardly. People who like Royal Crown cola will continue to buy it. And no statistics that could possibly cite about marketshare will ever convince them that Coke and Pepsi taste better.
But the OS market is not the beverage market. The marketplace for beverages is saturated. The only thing that can increase the total number of beverage consumsers is an increase in the total population. But the OS market is still growing. It is near to pointless to cite BSD's marketshare as an indicator of its death, when the total OS market is doubling every year or two.
Think about it. If the BSD market share lost 5% last year, they must be doing awesome! Because the total number of new OS consumers was much much more than 5%. BSD has more users today than they did last year. That's successful in my book.
In addition, lumping all operating systems together is erroneous. Just as Windows is targeting a different audience than Unix is, so Linux is targeting a different audience than BSD. Other than Debian and Slackware, the Linux distros seem to be targeting unix newbies and corporate users. The BSDs on the other hand are targeting unix veterans. They have never claimed to be the one OS for everyone.
The fact is this: as long as BSD continues to gain in total number of users, then BSD continues to gain in total number of users.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
To quote BOFH:
"Right, I'm your temporary replacement demonstrator and today we're going to put our assignments aside for half an hour to learn about the REMARK function, or, as it's known to the computer literate world, rm..."
Seriously though (considering the parent post is a troll) WTF should you give the root password to these clueless newbies ? That is one of the biggest problems for MS shops, so if you want to avoid trouble keep the root/administrator passwords away from lusers. Or let them fix the mess..
Imagine this situation: you get called to a user's BSD box because they, for some reason, find that they can't connect to the Internet. You immediately find that the network cable was pulled out. However, plugging it back in doesn't fix anything. You discover at this point that they deleted everything in /etc. "Hey, it says 'etc', and that means unnecessary, right?"
A true admin would never experience this, as he would never trust such a luser with root.
Also, he would have a system in place for a painless unattended reinstall of fsck'ed workstations.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
I think the Release is something everybody can look forward to. It also shows that OpenSource is not only Linux.
I use FreeBSD on my webserver. I use NetBSD on my Macs. I am putting OpenBSD on my DNS servers which were recently hacked (were Red Hat).
As for freedome. It is also restrictive to those who do not mind others wishing to take and not give back.
So ? I replied to a question about the number of platforms, not the number of common platforms. Besides, there's nothing wrong with fringe hardware (that's the way you make it sound:) If you want to conform and use what 99% of the world uses you can get Windows.
You see, I get this weird hardware from time to time and It's nice that there's an OS that supports them. Besides, when you're doing embedded programming it helps that there's a portable OS. The sheer number of platforms is a side effect of portable code.
But where will they get the manual from? CSRG is gone, and there are now three major BSD4.4lite-based OSes. My guess is they would go with FreeBSD's manual, since FreeBSD is the most successful, well known, and, some would argue, the most advanced of the three. But, truth be told, OpenBSD has an excellent manual, and I'll sometimes even consult it when I work with FreeBSD boxen.
Speaking of manuals, an excellent resource is the FreeBSD Project's manual webpage, actually a CGI script which allows to you to consult manuals from CSRG BSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, several Linux distributions, SunOS (pre- and post-BSD-Exodus), as well as less common Unices such as Minix (har har), Plan 9, Ultrix, and Seventh Edition.
While we're ontopic, Sun Microsystems publishes a Solaris reference which is essentially the printed manual, but I would not recommend this book. All of Sun's Solaris books are absolutely horrid. (Which I've never understood; their Java books are wonderful.) Complete wastes of money. The only remotely useful things are the discussions of the mail system and network filesystems in the "Advanced System Administration" book.
Hands down, the best single Unix command reference book you can buy at the moment is O'Reilly's Unix in a Nutshell, but that is straight SVR4, with some Solaris-specific commands thrown in for good measure. You'll get what amounts to an abbreviated manual, along with stuff on shells, editors, and maybe a few system calls. If you would like to do system-level programming, Stevens' Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment will counter-balance the Nutshell book nicely. Can never have too many reference books. :)
Forgive me, I love computer books, and tend to talk about them a lot
But that still does nothing for BSD users. Face it, guys, BSD is seen by much (dare I say most?) of the business IT world as "old" UNIX. Which it is, of course, but I don't find anything particularly wrong with that. But, it's a stumbling block which caused me to stop pushing it. (That, and the fact that my company is large enough to need the two dozen Sun and IBM boxen. I don't see many companies switching from Big Iron to clusters of x86 Free Unix boxen, but the high value and TOC of cheap x86 Unix are going to keep the current wave of IT startups going for another ten years.)
I honestly don't think I would buy BSD in a Nutshell. I'd rather have a printed manual, to complement Unix in a Nutshell, rather than replace it. Isn't that all I'd need? The vi and emacs syntax will be the same. So will awk, sed, and grep (for the most part). I'll be carrying two books around either way, so that stuff is just redundant.
Some say, "why have a printed manual at all, when everything is available on the system or online?" But you may be doing work at a location with both old and new SunOS boxes, and you're working on new SunOS, and you want to be make sure your shell scripts are portable between boxes. Having a printed BSD manual might come in handy then. Or you're on the subway going home from work, and you get in an argument with your geek buddies about proper BSD shutdown syntax. Or if you're like me, you just love computer books. So I'd buy the manual. But not the Nutshell book.
Okay, I'm ranting again.
"InfoMonk" mentions a mysterious BSD book in the works? I'm excited. I think a book on mid-level kernel work would do well. (Something to fill the void between The Complete FreeBSD and Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD-lite OS.) Or a book on BSD-specific networking and TCP/IP. Hey, Roblimo, get us an interview with TOR so I can bug him about this. ;)
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I like to watch.
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I like to watch.
If the workstation's been fsck'd, shouldn't it be working fine now?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Last check NetBSD runs on at least 32 platforms. Goto www.netbsd.org for particulars.
this space for rent
The BSD's comprise complete systems. Linux is a kernel only.
linux is a kernel available (and useless) plain, or via a number of distros in which it is bundled with a number of tools and utilities. How are the various BSD flavors different? they're bundled with mostly the same tools and utilities
I know that you already know what I'm pointing out, but you are willfully pretending you don't know what I'm talking about because its the only way you could think of to score some putative rhetorical points.
BSD zealots (and I don't say that pejoratively) routinely point out the advantages of their kernel, far more than they point out the advantages of their disk partitions or filesystem formats. But in any case, name an aspect of BSD that you like. Can that aspect be integrated with or made to work with linux or within one of the standard linux distros? Wouldn't that make the world incrementally better? When the integration is complete, you couldd pop in a distro disc and the installer would install all the various kernels and you could boot the one you wanted, or alternate and may the best kernel win.
The problem with dual booting is that the boot managers are a little tricky to configure from what I've been told. One of the nice parts about OpenBSD is that it has what are widely regarded as the highest quality man pages for almost any OS.
Free music from Jack Merlot.
It's not about *BSD moving to the forefront, it's about maintaining choice. If the whole world were to be stuck with Linux as the dominant OS it would only make things marginally better than the current situation. I personally think that there is much to be said in favour the BSD licence. It makes it more palatable to commercial developers and that is not a bad thing. The strictest Linux distro in terms of its application of the GPL is debian and their latest 'official' release is a year and a half old. Yes you can download a newer version or upgrade it from the ftp servers, but if you don't have broadband, or you find that the apt-get system on your box is broken you're in for a lot of grief. Commercial distros pay attention to keeping releases up to date. So do the BSDs.
Sorry about the debian rant but I've put in way too many late night hours trying to fix my broken debian install and I'm rather upset about it.
Choice and competition improve software. I'm less interested in seeing a dominance of open-surce software( though that would be nice ) than in seeing better and more reasonably priced sofware.
rod blaze lifted his sharpened dagger claws to his forehead and sighed in exasperation. when would the love of his life ever return to him? he had lost his memories during the experimentations on his rock hard body and even his regenerative sk11lz could not return them to him. his thoughts drifted back to his last known date with that beauty, only known as sol.
sol: oooooooooh rod blaze! penetrate me again with that virginator! uhhhh do me once more babee!
she had been clinging to his chest hair with dear life as rod blaze had pounded in to her with all the passion of a wolverine in heat even though a newage material seperated their bodies from immediate contact, contact that could prove fatal for rod blaze.
sol: AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE!
the scream echoed in rod blaze's mind over and over as he dug his sharpened razor like claws into his own flesh and let his blood seep out into the snow that lay around his battered body. he had tortured his body even as his own mind replayed the morose events of that past affair. in an orgasmic eruption he had ripped out an unfathomably large piece of sol's right side. the red fluid had poured onto his face until he awoke from his trance like state and had ripped off the newage material that had seperated their bodies. as rod blaze's body tore on its own accord, sol had regained some vitality. shortly afterwards rod blaze had left for canada to search out his own identity. lying in the snow, he searched his soul.
rod blaze: on this trip of identification, that which i seek to regain, have i thus lost what was right - this teen of body and mind yet ladylike and graceful - whom i have torn of flesh and tortured of mind? my sol, whose teenness so close to np - alas she is not mine to adore - i have found her irresistible - yet in my passion, i may have destroyed her.
sol had recovered, rod blaze had been the worse after his regenerative powers had been passed on to her, but he could not shake the undeniable truth - he had come a hair's width away from ripping the soul away from sol's body.
sol: rod blaze is that you? i have followed you from RMS's school for gifted and cute teens to find you, as i do love you and your wicked delights.
rod blaze: oh sol! how i have should have completed my transgressions against my own body of nature, you whom i have only shamefully admitted to love - shamefully yes - for our ages might very well be in difference - and you are a teen of body and mind, ladylike yes, but pouting teen of breast and pouting teen of lips - that which i do pursue.
sol: oh rod blaze how you should be with me, hold me in your strong arms!
rod blaze: YEARRGGGHHHHHHHHHhh! you have stabbed me my love!? WHhhhyyy? better still, for I am better dead
rod blaze crumples to the ground as hemos morphs from his sol exterior and wipes his blade on the snow.
hemos: MUHHAHAHA foolish rod blaze! i have known you would have taken my sol-bait, but i did not realize how easily. foolish man! i have stollen your sol, and OSM's natalie portman - both pouting teen of breast, and pouting teen of lips, from your secret hideout - RMS's dirty old cave aka RMS's School for the Gifted and Cute Teens!
no one really knew why hemos - a manchild - kept his base form of a leathery skinned blue women with golden eyes. perhaps it was because of the demands of having a relationship with ESR - the dirty old pedo who could create magnetic fields at will.
hemos runs down the snowy hill, even as the sun begins to set over rod blaze's motionless body. he meets a couple getting into their skidoo, and slays them both with his wickedly curved dagger. he takes off in their skidoo - obviously headed for ESR's secret hideout for an entertaining evening filled with sexual dominance and submission.
a few hours later, twilight. rod blaze awakens from his regenerative sleep and utters a curse.
rod blaze:foul demonness hemos! my misfortune has thus been your fortune, and has transformed my wholesome love for sol into a mockery by your treacherous and lecherous ways!
rod blaze, now recovered, jumps onto OSM's motorcycle - stolen - which had been hidden in the tundra - and launches himself down the road like a missile. he arrives at the school by daybreak. he parks his bike, and lights up a cuban cigar.
rod blaze: Aahhhaha the school! now where is my sol whom i have forsaken for too long - and open source man and his natalie portman?
teen iceman: hey rod blaze - looking for your sweet heart sol? well i really turned her on with my ice rose - i bet she creamed her shorts - but you won't find her here - she and natalie portman have been kidnapped by esr and his goons: roblimo the canadian experiment gone wrong and hemos the transvestite shapechanger!
rod blaze: you stupid little fuck, tell me where sol and natalie really are now, or i'll shove a blade into your tight little anus!
rod blaze extricates one long wicked blade from the middle of his right hand as open source man strides onto the scene, wearing his cool oakley rubicon coated lenses and a pair of tight leather pants.
open source man: jeez rod blaze - forget this little teen fuck - we've got two pouting of teen lips and pouting of teen breasts teens to rescue! and give me my fucking bike you cunt.
rod blaze: you're a dick. let's go.
open source man jumps onto the back of his bike that rod blaze is so deftly piloting. their speed increases to mach 5 - on the razors edge - they flit past the scenes in a rush of adrenaline and exhaust.
rod blaze: where the fuck are we going anyhow?
open source man: RMS, that old fart, i convinced him to take some time out of indoctrinating the masses with his gpl madness and use his mental fraternizing to good use - to locate my sweet natalie and your sensual sol! they're imprisoned in ESR's hideout - off the I-95, the next exit, underneath the new hampshire town hall - yeah the one that looks like a miniature white house.
rod blaze pulls into the miniature white house drive. five officers are guarding the entrance to new hampshire town hall.
officers: Muuuuuuuuutation! Muuuuuuuuutation! Kill 'em all boys!
open source man flips the knob on his rubicon visor and explosively clears a path to the underground lair of ESR and his flunkies. rod blaze smokes his cigar and sits astride his motorcycle nonchalantly. the pigs run, hide, and try to stay calm by munching on some diabetic chocolate.
rod blaze: good job. natalie doesn't just keep you around for your sweet ass, does she?
open source man: stay away from my girlfriend.
open source man clears a smooth way down to ESR's hideout by using his haX0ring sk1llz, aka, his mutant power. rod blaze revs the engine and he and open source man ride down into the darkness. the air below smells like the sickly sweet stench of a night of lust and penetration. the darkness triggers an uneasiness in rod blaze as he experiences a flashback to horror filled days of the grafting of adamantite to his skeleton.
open source man and rod blaze disembark from their vehicle and are faced with an iron bridge over a river of sewage. ESR, mutant of immense power, controller of magnetic fields and open source advocate stands at the other end of the bridge.
ESR: (in a booming voice) i am the greatest pedo of the east and west, and i shall penetrate your loves tonight! prepare to face my wrath, X-MEN!
rod blaze: have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?
open source man: what?!?
rod blaze extends his blades in a fury of taut muscle, blazing fast energy and runs across the bridge with the speed of an antelope and the wisdom of a rock. open source man takes aim at ESR with his visor. suddenly, out of the darkness does appear two teen beauties, one on each side of ESR. it is sol and natalie portman, both dressed in bronze bikinis and collared, and reminiscent of leia, jabba's slave.
rod blaze: Noooooooooooooo!
open source man: huh?
ESR: ah ha my children, children of mutation, children of open source. i am unsatisfied with my millions, i require tight bodies as well, and now, as you can very well see, i have them at my delectable disposal, even though i am somewhat dirty and disgusting of thought.
ESR raises his hands high into the sky as he screams with a lecherous abandon:
ESR: feel my power my pretties! dance and writhe in your orgasmic pleasure that I have so bestowed upon yous!
grammar nazi: you fscking idiot - yous ain't a word.
suddenly sol and natalie portman are lifted into the air, approximately 10 feet into the sky as rod blaze is frozen in place and open source man's visor is torn from his face and cast to the ground. it skitters across the damp earth. he closes his eyes with all his might so as not to blast his poor, beloved, pouting of teen breast and pouting of teen lips, natalie portman. natalie portman's thong is ripped from her thighs as sol's is also. two immense metallic dildos are immediately thrust between their legs and commence their assault at a frantic pace. natalie and sol are in a state of heighted pleasure as their awareness slips only to their love muffins.
open source man cries: natalie, i have loved and longed for you since the day creation began, and it shall endure, until creation doth bestow me unto the earth!
rod blaze: sol, think to my hairy chest and to my mutant member!
sol: ooooOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhh rod blaze i yearn for the viciousness of your member and your jaws upon my teen nipples!
natalie portman: oh open source man, i have loved you always, you are my soul mate and my one desire upon this earth. i shall be in your strong open sourced arms once more my love!
natalie and sol look to each other and their eyes meet even as they reach new plateaus of orgasmic pleasure. natalie seems to concentrate for an instant, she stops humping the dildo.
ESR: ahh Uh ahhh yes, i shall.
ESR bends over and flips up his cape. natalie and sol are lowered to ground, very gently. natalie has her hands on her temples and is concentrating fervously. a bead of sweat starts to form across her forehead. ESR looks like he is in a trance. he pulls his stockings off and spreads his bum cheeks. sol walks over to ESR and places her hand on his hand. ESR starts to shake and wail like a little boy. sol waves her hand and the dildos, like two heat seeking missiles, head straight for esr's anus and grind into it with a furious resolve.
rod blaze: sol! you have his power - natalie, did you control him to bend over and release us?
natalie portman: yes yes yes!
sol: yes my love, yes!
open source man's visor jumps to his face and reattaches itself to his head. he then locates hemos and roblimo - cowering in a pile of cookies in the far side of the cavern. without a word rod blaze and open source man run to their location, and after an incredible battle, claim victory to be theirs!
sol and natalie portman run to their gpl'ed heroes and embrace them and shower them with kisses. their pubic areas are wet and yummy, so rod blaze and open source man engage in fellatio with utmost fervour. after a while they walk off, natalie portman safe in the arms of her hero, open source man, and sol, in the arms of her hero, rod blaze.
love and happiness reign supreme.
EPILOGUE
somewhere in another plastic dungeon RMS continues ESR's mental ass pounding.
ESR: old friend, do you really think you can ever beat the open source movement?
RMS: where ever you bring your open source 'movement', i shall be there, with my GPL and my freedom.
-- I'd take a bitch-slapping for you sol!
When linux started it was alternative OS (hate
this term) opposing market dominant OSes like
Windows, OS/2 etc. Slowly Linux won it's war
and slowly started moving to establishment (for various reasons *BSD opted not to win this battle). This
gained Linux bigger software base, corporate recognition etc. However new role of "mainstream" OS and some implications of such role ("make software every idion can use and only idios will use it") does not fit profile of some early adopters who used to view themselfs as underground
culture. They used to have OS which is tuned for their needs not needs of average desctop user. They like to be in minority. They like to be unique experts.
I've said to friend around year ago that soon many
of those hackers will start looking for "other", less mainstream OS to adopt. Luckily *BSD is there. Now I see my predictions come true: I see more interest in *BSD in Linux community. Hey, I am considering myself installing OpenBSD on my Sparc 1+ firewall instead of Solaris!
P.S. I am using *BSD since 386BSD, but because of convinience of pre-compiled packages and bigger supported software base slowly shifted to Linux as my primary platform.
aren't there any people on Slashdot who can abstract a concept? what was the point of my bringing up the Turing test to people who are unable to draw an analogy? an education is worthless if no one else has one.
I think Linux runs on more platforms than NetBSD does.
Well you might want to prove that. Please show me a Linux distribution (yes distribution, no gross kernel hacks) with a unified, clean source tree complete with all the platforms in the tree.
When I go to the zoo, I feed the monkeys 'cause they're so damn funny. When I go to Slashdot I feed the trolls for the same reason...
BSD is a bunch of crooks and thieves who steal open source success and provide an inferior product to Linux.
How do you steal something that is free? Everything in the BSD source trees meticulously follow the licensing. Neither is anything exploited. All source code and modifications for anything is readily available.
As for being inferior, that is a purely subjective opinion. It has no basis in fact, and coming from an Anonymous Coward, can be ignored as tripe. Linux is better in some areas and BSD is better in others. Get used to it.
Linux was here first
BSD around before Linux. Hell, it was around before Minix! Sheez... Next thing you know you'll be claiming that Linus and not Algore invented the internet...
Linux is what is innovating the internet generation
Err, I spoke to soon, you are claiming it! Like it or not, the internet *is* BSD. TCP/IP is pure Berkeley. All of the big internet forces came from or were profoundly influenced by BSD. This includes bind, dns, sendmail, apache, mosaic, etc.
BSD steals almost all their code and ideas from Linux.
Again, how do you steal something that's free? And how can you steal in 1980 what won't be written until 1990 and beyond? What exactly did BSD steal from Linux? Page coloring? Softupdates? Vinum? Ports?
I would suggest you keep your mouth shut until such a time as you can produce a Linux distro containing absolutely no BSD derived code.
Open Source needs to be made Linux only and NOW!
Open Source needs to REMAIN free! Freedom means a choice between operating systems. Slavery and tyranny mean that everyone must only use what you tell them to. That you advocate Linux only for open source indicates that you have absolutely no clue as to the meanings of "free" or "open". You try to shove your choices down the throats of free men and you'll be in a world of excruciating hurt.
how long will we sit back and let them steal our inventions??
Nothing has been stolen. Let me spell it out clearly and succinctly: if you give source code to someone, they have not stolen from you. And don't talk about "inventions". What exactly has Linux done that no other operating system has? Name just one idea inherent to Linux that is new and innovative. There may be a lot of prior ideas that it does better, but Linux still didn't come up with those ideas first. (And I don't see Linus' or Richard's names on any software patents, nor do I expect to until Chuckie goes ice skating)
Linux the choice of a GNU generation
What a great sig for someone who doesn't know the first thing about freedom. You're so ignorant that you don't even know that your post is a slap in the face to Richard Stallman and everything he's been working for!
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned