I think I may have a way to get the concept through to you. On my one site, I have a very complex system controlled by a PLC. The PLC can(amoung many other functions) remotely close and trip most of the breakers in the substation, but is physically distant from the substation. The PLC will trip a breaker based on many factors including a physical safety interlock. What you're trying to tell me is amounts to "the PLC is part of the breaker". The issue is, the fundamental philosophy of a household breaker does not scale up to the devices mentioned in TFA, or the ones I work with. They are fundamentally different. A breaker is "just a switch", but the intelligence that controls the breaker is not part of that switch (with very good reason). It is therefore incorrect, in the context to refer to the entire system as a breaker, since the entire system may not even be contained in the panel you are trying to, think of as a "breaker." My PLC is in no way part of the breaker, and can not be considered so even though it controls the breaker. It also measures temperature and runs VSDs and various other things not related to the breaker. The concept is different. The over-simplification is dangerous, and annoying because I have had customers who think like you do, and as a result have very unrealistic and dangerous expectations of what things are or can do. That sort of thinking costs me time and could cost someone else their life. Perhaps this is why I haven't given up trying to get you to see what I'm saying.
My UID is low because I was an anonymous coward for many years. I could not be bothered to sign up.
None of the above invalidates my point, we can be accurate here without being pedantic or unclear to "the general populace," which slashdot isn't targeted at.
This isn't the same at all. My goodness you're strange. "The protection tripped the breaker." That makes sense to anybody and everybody. "Protection against what?" "Short circuit." "Oh". End of story. This isn't about being technical or pedantic. It's about effective communication. It communicates everything effectively, and clearly. We're not even using technical terms here. If a layman asks "Why?" We can say, "it was set up wrong." The article is about the reason the breaker tripped. This being slashdot, we're interested in that reason. It is why we come here. Tell me honestly, am I being trolled, because I have a hard time believing you're genuine.
Firstly, if you don't care, then what the hell are you doing on slashdot? Why are you even commenting here? Did you miss the title of the page? Secondly I think your understanding is dangerously flawed, and the attidude of "I don't care" is quite frankly pathetic, not to mention dangerous. A circuit breaker never detects *anything*. Ever. It can't. It is just a set of mechanical contacts. I know you don't care but swallow your pride and learn something. Then maybe if you happen to ever find yourself in a substation you won't look like a complete tool. Take your crusade against calling things what they are elsewhere. This is certainly not the place for it. Now I'm going to go drive my car. Or was it an aeroplane? They're all the same thing anyway, modes of transport. Heck they both have wheels and engines. Lets not get pedantic about these things...
To say nobody outside of the EE feild cares might not be true.. Go order one and see how far you get. The collection of stuff does not act as a circuit breaker. The collection of stuff acts as switchgear, or a MCC or heck, even a substation. The name is not "too generalized" it is simply and plainly wrong. The woman who cleans the substation at the one place I work knows the difference and she barely has any qualifications. I am trying to think of a way to put this so you will understand, but it seems you have a block on this. There are lots of panels around the same size and shape as switchgear, but which aren't switchgear. They don't have breakers in them. They contain other control equipment. The collection of breaker and panel could be correctly reffered to as "switchgear" but not a "breaker." This is not pedantry, it simply is what it is, and trying to overgeneralise here will not work, because (and going back to TFA) what happened will make no sense. I can garruntee you, as someone who works in the industry, that your understanding of this is very very wrong. And I have met enough people out of the industry with a far better understanding of this than you have.
I tend to think they're fairly honest. I pay about what (when the US dollar currency takes a dive I smile...:) Cheap games! )Americans pay for their games, here in SA. They could really rip us off here (it is south africa they can charge pretty much what they like), but they don't. Add to that the endless specials and I have very little issue with them. Australia seems very different though for all things. People who go over from here are always complaining about the high cost of everything, expecially data/software, which is weird, because it isn't like shipping is a major cost for that sort of stuff...
It is not unnecessary. They are different things. It is like you saying "my garage doesn't work" "Why?" "My car is not in it." I give up and hope to goodness you don't do anything technical, especially not anything that someone's life might depend on.
But: If a protection relay exists in this context, it is part of the circuit breaker system. Thus the generalized term "circuit breaker" certainly applies.
Incorrect. In industry they are definitely separate items. The protection relay is in the panel. The breaker is a removable item that fits into the panel, and normally gets wheeled around a trolly. You clearly have never worked with this stuff. perhaps you should before you talk about it? Why do you insist that the breaker is the panel? I really don't understand how you are confusing the two?
let me help you out here:
This is what a breaker looks like. Notice the distinct lack of a protection relay.
I have never seen CTs as part of the breaker assembly. They'll be in the panel, or in the case of some large motors by the motor as well. Admittedly I haven't worked with all the breakers that you can get, but this seems normal so far... (Also for the mods, mod parent up. Nobody worth their salt thinks a protection relay is part of a breaker. It simply is not.)
You can have a breaker without a protection relay, but not a car without a fuel pump. A fuel pump is often mechanically driven, and a protection relay on it would be silly. Even the electric ones use a simple fuse. A car with a blown fuse isn't necessarily broken (and normally a spare is carried anyway), and can be up and running again in minutes. A breaker will work fine without a protection relay. It simply won't trip on fault conditions which is considered dangerous. I have seen a couple like that. You clearly not entirely sure what you're talking about, so his "pedantry" was necessary to educate you. QED.:P
But if you are competent and get the settings right, those relays can prevent huge amounts of damage. Well worth it. I know, I work with them, and if I did not have such devices the one site I worked at would have burned down when the capacitor banks faulted.
You sir, are a bit of an ass. He is giving relevant and interesting information, which is true. I know, I'm also a process control engineer. The protection relay is quite a complex device (normally approaching the complexity of a small PLC) and very easy to set up wrong.
Try living in Africa. We got the iTunes music store late last year, by which time I'd already chucked the only idevice I ever had the misfortune to own. Can't even buy from amazon....
You joke, but my fairly recent Nokia N8 could both receive and transmit Analogue FM between around 88MHz and 104MHZ. I often wondered if I couldn't hack it into a smart tuner...
Analogue radio is still around in many parts of the world and isn't going anywhere. However TFA is referring to the use of Wifi or (3rd gen) GSM radio to stream audio from a internet source...
I have heard of it extensively in both America, Africa and Europe. Perhaps Australia has different policies, but guys like Anglo-American are extremely strict here.
Slashdot Mirror
I think I may have a way to get the concept through to you. On my one site, I have a very complex system controlled by a PLC. The PLC can(amoung many other functions) remotely close and trip most of the breakers in the substation, but is physically distant from the substation. The PLC will trip a breaker based on many factors including a physical safety interlock. What you're trying to tell me is amounts to "the PLC is part of the breaker". The issue is, the fundamental philosophy of a household breaker does not scale up to the devices mentioned in TFA, or the ones I work with. They are fundamentally different. A breaker is "just a switch", but the intelligence that controls the breaker is not part of that switch (with very good reason). It is therefore incorrect, in the context to refer to the entire system as a breaker, since the entire system may not even be contained in the panel you are trying to, think of as a "breaker." My PLC is in no way part of the breaker, and can not be considered so even though it controls the breaker. It also measures temperature and runs VSDs and various other things not related to the breaker. The concept is different. The over-simplification is dangerous, and annoying because I have had customers who think like you do, and as a result have very unrealistic and dangerous expectations of what things are or can do. That sort of thinking costs me time and could cost someone else their life. Perhaps this is why I haven't given up trying to get you to see what I'm saying.
And at this scale, your terminology is definitely and clearly wrong. What is not to get?
If you insist..
Just becuase you can't show me a breaker with a protection relay in all that. So, yes your terms, in this instance, are very wrong.
*Not low. Typo. Sorry. On my off days I'm a comedian, but I'm not quiting my day job.
You're really not helping educate anyone at all. Please stop.
In this case, sadly this is true, though I don't believe I am the problem here. Never-the-less I shall leave it at that.
My UID is low because I was an anonymous coward for many years. I could not be bothered to sign up.
None of the above invalidates my point, we can be accurate here without being pedantic or unclear to "the general populace," which slashdot isn't targeted at.
But in this case, your terms are wrong. Good grief. I give up.
This isn't the same at all. My goodness you're strange. "The protection tripped the breaker." That makes sense to anybody and everybody. "Protection against what?" "Short circuit." "Oh". End of story. This isn't about being technical or pedantic. It's about effective communication. It communicates everything effectively, and clearly. We're not even using technical terms here. If a layman asks "Why?" We can say, "it was set up wrong." The article is about the reason the breaker tripped. This being slashdot, we're interested in that reason. It is why we come here. Tell me honestly, am I being trolled, because I have a hard time believing you're genuine.
Firstly, if you don't care, then what the hell are you doing on slashdot? Why are you even commenting here? Did you miss the title of the page? Secondly I think your understanding is dangerously flawed, and the attidude of "I don't care" is quite frankly pathetic, not to mention dangerous. A circuit breaker never detects *anything*. Ever. It can't. It is just a set of mechanical contacts. I know you don't care but swallow your pride and learn something. Then maybe if you happen to ever find yourself in a substation you won't look like a complete tool. Take your crusade against calling things what they are elsewhere. This is certainly not the place for it. Now I'm going to go drive my car. Or was it an aeroplane? They're all the same thing anyway, modes of transport. Heck they both have wheels and engines. Lets not get pedantic about these things...
To say nobody outside of the EE feild cares might not be true.. Go order one and see how far you get. The collection of stuff does not act as a circuit breaker. The collection of stuff acts as switchgear, or a MCC or heck, even a substation. The name is not "too generalized" it is simply and plainly wrong. The woman who cleans the substation at the one place I work knows the difference and she barely has any qualifications. I am trying to think of a way to put this so you will understand, but it seems you have a block on this. There are lots of panels around the same size and shape as switchgear, but which aren't switchgear. They don't have breakers in them. They contain other control equipment. The collection of breaker and panel could be correctly reffered to as "switchgear" but not a "breaker." This is not pedantry, it simply is what it is, and trying to overgeneralise here will not work, because (and going back to TFA) what happened will make no sense. I can garruntee you, as someone who works in the industry, that your understanding of this is very very wrong. And I have met enough people out of the industry with a far better understanding of this than you have.
I tend to think they're fairly honest. I pay about what (when the US dollar currency takes a dive I smile... :) Cheap games! )Americans pay for their games, here in SA. They could really rip us off here (it is south africa they can charge pretty much what they like), but they don't. Add to that the endless specials and I have very little issue with them. Australia seems very different though for all things. People who go over from here are always complaining about the high cost of everything, expecially data/software, which is weird, because it isn't like shipping is a major cost for that sort of stuff...
Pot? This is kettle.
It is not unnecessary. They are different things. It is like you saying "my garage doesn't work" "Why?" "My car is not in it." I give up and hope to goodness you don't do anything technical, especially not anything that someone's life might depend on.
But: If a protection relay exists in this context, it is part of the circuit breaker system. Thus the generalized term "circuit breaker" certainly applies.
Incorrect. In industry they are definitely separate items. The protection relay is in the panel. The breaker is a removable item that fits into the panel, and normally gets wheeled around a trolly. You clearly have never worked with this stuff. perhaps you should before you talk about it? Why do you insist that the breaker is the panel? I really don't understand how you are confusing the two?
let me help you out here:
This is what a breaker looks like. Notice the distinct lack of a protection relay.
I have never seen CTs as part of the breaker assembly. They'll be in the panel, or in the case of some large motors by the motor as well. Admittedly I haven't worked with all the breakers that you can get, but this seems normal so far... (Also for the mods, mod parent up. Nobody worth their salt thinks a protection relay is part of a breaker. It simply is not.)
You can have a breaker without a protection relay, but not a car without a fuel pump. A fuel pump is often mechanically driven, and a protection relay on it would be silly. Even the electric ones use a simple fuse. A car with a blown fuse isn't necessarily broken (and normally a spare is carried anyway), and can be up and running again in minutes. A breaker will work fine without a protection relay. It simply won't trip on fault conditions which is considered dangerous. I have seen a couple like that. You clearly not entirely sure what you're talking about, so his "pedantry" was necessary to educate you. QED. :P
This is on my phone:
http://www.yebanishedprivateers.com/
Does it count? I paid for it...
But if you are competent and get the settings right, those relays can prevent huge amounts of damage. Well worth it. I know, I work with them, and if I did not have such devices the one site I worked at would have burned down when the capacitor banks faulted.
You sir, are a bit of an ass. He is giving relevant and interesting information, which is true. I know, I'm also a process control engineer. The protection relay is quite a complex device (normally approaching the complexity of a small PLC) and very easy to set up wrong.
2.5 Get rejected because your credit card isn't in the EU.... I think they sell a T-shirt for this...
It is honestly so stupid (also another reason I quit apple).
Me:"I want to buy x, y, z. Here take my money. Heck, I'll even pay your ridiculous price."
Apple/Amazon/Pandora/etc: "STFU. This stuff isn't available in your region."
Me: "And I shouldn't pirate because....?"
At least steam works fine. Why can't everyone else that?
Try living in Africa. We got the iTunes music store late last year, by which time I'd already chucked the only idevice I ever had the misfortune to own. Can't even buy from amazon....
You joke, but my fairly recent Nokia N8 could both receive and transmit Analogue FM between around 88MHz and 104MHZ. I often wondered if I couldn't hack it into a smart tuner...
Analogue radio is still around in many parts of the world and isn't going anywhere. However TFA is referring to the use of Wifi or (3rd gen) GSM radio to stream audio from a internet source...
Galaxy Note 10.1?
(sent from my galaxy note 10.1)
I have heard of it extensively in both America, Africa and Europe. Perhaps Australia has different policies, but guys like Anglo-American are extremely strict here.
Weed is easy to test for, and if over a period of time you work at various sites, chances are you will be caught. The story is highly unlikely.