That's the problem, because in a city with gun shot detectors, crime in progress detectors and what not, you will end up with more and more false alarms justifying the police to act without a warrant.
At the limit, in an a city under hyper-surveillance, you may as well forget about the police needing a warrant in any case.
Also, I never said the police didn't do job and I remained polite with them because I was understanding what was happening. Funnily enough, if I had told them to go to hell, they probably would have broken into my place and arrested me for disobeying police orders.
I totally agree, but if the detection rate is high enough, then people start to behave differently and you do not need prevention programs because most people are just too afraid to do anything that goes against what the governing people define as the law.
That was the point I was trying to make. You may call that irony if you wish. I am not saying surveillance, police state and totalitarian regimes are the way to go.
Go talk to some people who have lived under a totalitarian regime. I was just trying to draw a parallel between a city under high surveillance and totalitarian regimes, a little irony doesn't hurt sometimes.;-)
As well, note that we are not talking about surveillance similar to what is done in the U.K. We are talking about detecting crimes in progress and gun shut detectors that would trigger immediate intervention from the police forces.
What happens in case of a false alarm ?
Police now has a valid reason to go into your place. They might find something to bring charges in your place that is unrelated to the alarm. If they don't, well you still get the idea they may come into your place anytime even if you didn't do anything wrong. The scare tactic begin to take place.
I had police rushing into my apartment because they said they received a 911 call coming from my apartment. Of course this was B.S. They searched my whole place to make sure I didn't hide my dead girlfriend in some closet. They said that I had to let them in, that they didn't need a search warrant because of the 911 call. They finally left without even excusing themselves for disturbing me.
I called the phone company the next day about this and on the same day they had somebody in the telephone pole in my backyard. They phoned back saying that they found the problem and that they were sorry about that. I also had noticed dropped packed on the DSL link on that line so I believe there was indeed a problem with the line;-)
Police do take advantage of false alarm to conduct random searches because they can do so without a warrant. I told the police many times that there were no 911 call made but they just wouldn't believe me.
Crime rate is lower in facilities under high surveillance. Turn a city into a facility under high surveillance and it should help lowering the crime rate as well.
I also lack time to discuss every time I cannot come up with good arguments for my position:)
Not me, only when the argument list is too long for both side and that arguing would be futile because the viewpoints are too closely interrelated.
Anyway, my point was that a malware can have several means to install itself. So, that rootkit, which is according to you a trojan, would become a virus if it could exploit a hole in one of the daemon running as root to install itself without user intervention. Once installed, the way to detect it and remove it would be sensibly the same although.
More seriously, I agree with what you say although. The best way that I know of to protect against trojans is to verify digital signature as I posted here:
Then again, the line is slim between installing a trojan because you think it is iPhoto and installing a program because you are misguided into clicking onto something while browsing the web.
In modern times, the distinction between trojan, virus and spywarre and what not is harder to make. The iPhoto trojan is basically a rootkit. It doesn't matter if you get that rootkit installed by making the user believing he is installing iPhoto or by exploiting something else in the OS, you still end up with a rootkit installed on a remote machine.
As a matter of fact, the hackers will probably find another way to install their rootkit if they haven't already found one. Security is a global topic, punctually plugins holes isn't the way to go although it is required sometimes. Punctually plugging holes is part of a good security policy but it is no policy in itself.
Does Mac have a built-in anti-virus or do they rely on something simpler like checksums or something like that ?
Anyway, as said in TFA, I guess all MAC users should install anti-virus software. I use clam on Linux although I run no daemon process. I only scan emails or other very suspicious downloaded files and I run a full scan every week during the night. I also rely on common sense and digital signature when I download/install software.
Read TFA, parent is correct concerning the wheels:
Cavallaro explained the car is able to move faster than the wind because the propeller is not turned by the wind. The wind pushes the vehicle forward, and once moving the wheels turn the propeller. The propeller spins in the opposite direction to that expected, pushing the wind backwards, which in turn pushes the car forwards, turning the wheels, and thus turning the propeller faster still.
About having the machine inspected when you lose to make sure no 'engineering mistake' were made ?
This is stupid, it should be like in baseball where faulty referee calls are considered part of the game. Especially since I have never heard of machine getting inspected when you lose;-)
I am sure TV can be used in a limited manner (say 30 mins a day) to teach kids something. Unfortunately, you may have to search a bit or design your own programs since mainstream programming might not fit the bill most of the time.
As you mentioned, it is easier to use the Internet in a "filtered way" where you actually use it to enhance yourself. My point was that the typical Joe user isn't aware of this or that he is not interested is doing this, just like some TV users like to watch realty shows and sitcoms.
Some other posters have mentioned that the Internet is just making dumb people dumber and smart people smarter. In the end, it is the same for TV;-)
Of course it can easily make you dumber, just like TV can make you dumber. The similitude has become to apply after 1995 when big players (telcos, etc.) became Internet providers and when companies and marketing agencies have become to realize to potential of Internet as a marketing tool and viewed it as just like another tool similar to TV.
Don't get me wrong, it is still possible to use the Internet to get smarter or at least more informed but given what I observe, it for the typical Joe user that uses it in a way comparable to a modern T.V. where you can play games running on the cable company hardware, it makes him dumber.
You could be surprised by how many people are proud to announce breaking news to me because they received an chain-email containing a ridiculous story that takes me about 30 seconds to debunk. The most worrying part is that they actually deeply believed it before sharing it with me.
Some people believe anything they watch on TV and read in newspaper. Nowadays, a lot of people believe anything they see on the Internet just like if they had seen it on TV.
Well to their defense, this is the way it was marketed and sold to them by the big players, just like an extension to TV with very low emphasis on educating people about the technology, security, etc.
It reminds me Cray supercomputers creator digging a tunnel under his home where he said he would find solutions to his problems while getting visited by elves;-)
They might not have the chance to go that far. Poll results published by La Presse today says that people are ready to go for a NDP-Liberal coalition as long as NDP leader, Jack Layton is prime minister. I am not sure if the Conservatives could form a majority government given an election. They have been a minority government for quite a while.
Canadian political system works pretty much like the one in U.K. and Canadians might have been inspired by the recent outcome in U.K.
> Technology is a wonderful thing - each year we're able to do more with less.
A perpetually growing economy usually involves the average wage rising so average people can buy more stuff while still working less.
Have you looked around lately ? In fact you are right in some way: every year we need less people, so by the market rule, the average wage goes down relatively to what you can buy for a dollar on average, especially food and lodging.
Well at least, they seem to start to realize that perpetual growth is impossible to achieve in a finite universe. For us, right now, this means our planet.
We may need to start businesses on other planets until we have conquered the whole universe in order to maintain the illusion that perpetual growth is possible.
Yet, the whole point of investing in the market is more or less (at least it was traditionally) based on a perpetual growth principle where there would always be new markets to conquer thus, rising stocks on average and a perpetually growing economy.
Since they seem to begin to realize that perpetual growth is impossible and that trading is what they have done all their life, they need to keep the profits coming in anyway. So they figured that by using "high-frequency algorithmic trading" they could keep the profits coming in.
Well, at the expense of whom ? How long can this trend be maintained before major problems arise in the economy ?
IMHO, if it is theoretically possible to hack something. It will probably eventually get hacked without regards for the constraints for achieving the hack if the profit is considerable enough.
Slashdot Mirror
That's the problem, because in a city with gun shot detectors, crime in progress detectors and what not, you will end up with more and more false alarms justifying the police to act without a warrant.
At the limit, in an a city under hyper-surveillance, you may as well forget about the police needing a warrant in any case.
Also, I never said the police didn't do job and I remained polite with them because I was understanding what was happening. Funnily enough, if I had told them to go to hell, they probably would have broken into my place and arrested me for disobeying police orders.
That's exactly what I am thinking too. My GP post should have had a "irony" tag.
In fact, I just said basically the same as you say here, with a personal experience to back it up :
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1692390&cid=32635822
I totally agree, but if the detection rate is high enough, then people start to behave differently and you do not need prevention programs because most people are just too afraid to do anything that goes against what the governing people define as the law.
That was the point I was trying to make. You may call that irony if you wish. I am not saying surveillance, police state and totalitarian regimes are the way to go.
Go talk to some people who have lived under a totalitarian regime. I was just trying to draw a parallel between a city under high surveillance and totalitarian regimes, a little irony doesn't hurt sometimes. ;-)
As well, note that we are not talking about surveillance similar to what is done in the U.K. We are talking about detecting crimes in progress and gun shut detectors that would trigger immediate intervention from the police forces.
What happens in case of a false alarm ?
Police now has a valid reason to go into your place. They might find something to bring charges in your place that is unrelated to the alarm. If they don't, well you still get the idea they may come into your place anytime even if you didn't do anything wrong. The scare tactic begin to take place.
I had police rushing into my apartment because they said they received a 911 call coming from my apartment. Of course this was B.S. They searched my whole place to make sure I didn't hide my dead girlfriend in some closet. They said that I had to let them in, that they didn't need a search warrant because of the 911 call. They finally left without even excusing themselves for disturbing me.
I called the phone company the next day about this and on the same day they had somebody in the telephone pole in my backyard. They phoned back saying that they found the problem and that they were sorry about that. I also had noticed dropped packed on the DSL link on that line so I believe there was indeed a problem with the line ;-)
Police do take advantage of false alarm to conduct random searches because they can do so without a warrant. I told the police many times that there were no 911 call made but they just wouldn't believe me.
Crime rate is lower in facilities under high surveillance. Turn a city into a facility under high surveillance and it should help lowering the crime rate as well.
I also lack time to discuss every time I cannot come up with good arguments for my position :)
Not me, only when the argument list is too long for both side and that arguing would be futile because the viewpoints are too closely interrelated.
Anyway, my point was that a malware can have several means to install itself. So, that rootkit, which is according to you a trojan, would become a virus if it could exploit a hole in one of the daemon running as root to install itself without user intervention. Once installed, the way to detect it and remove it would be sensibly the same although.
Well, you should have mentioned digital signatures anyway. "Well vetted sources" means nothing.
I have no time to argue further whether "how it is installed' matters more than the end result.
> I think you don't know what a trojan is....
I think you do not know who you are talking to ;-)
More seriously, I agree with what you say although. The best way that I know of to protect against trojans is to verify digital signature as I posted here:
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1691914&cid=32627744
Then again, the line is slim between installing a trojan because you think it is iPhoto and installing a program because you are misguided into clicking onto something while browsing the web.
In modern times, the distinction between trojan, virus and spywarre and what not is harder to make. The iPhoto trojan is basically a rootkit. It doesn't matter if you get that rootkit installed by making the user believing he is installing iPhoto or by exploiting something else in the OS, you still end up with a rootkit installed on a remote machine.
As a matter of fact, the hackers will probably find another way to install their rootkit if they haven't already found one. Security is a global topic, punctually plugins holes isn't the way to go although it is required sometimes. Punctually plugging holes is part of a good security policy but it is no policy in itself.
So how does Mac "detects" it ?
Does Mac have a built-in anti-virus or do they rely on something simpler like checksums or something like that ?
Anyway, as said in TFA, I guess all MAC users should install anti-virus software. I use clam on Linux although I run no daemon process. I only scan emails or other very suspicious downloaded files and I run a full scan every week during the night. I also rely on common sense and digital signature when I download/install software.
Trojan for Mac had to appear some day.
Well, I would bet this isn't the first one but anyways..
Hackers and what not typically target Windows.
They could probably benefit from the skills they have acquired in targeting Mac to target Linux as well.
Sorry, I just can't believe Oracle would overcharge anybody ;-)
>> A few greens in the correct pockets... ...
> A few purples
I would rather have a few grays in my pocket.
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1679420&cid=32502988
But, but, but,,, this really goes against American principles and the way we live here. Therefore, it has to be wrong ! ;-)
Read TFA, parent is correct concerning the wheels :
Cavallaro explained the car is able to move faster than the wind because the propeller is not turned by the wind. The wind pushes the vehicle forward, and once moving the wheels turn the propeller. The propeller spins in the opposite direction to that expected, pushing the wind backwards, which in turn pushes the car forwards, turning the wheels, and thus turning the propeller faster still.
About having the machine inspected when you lose to make sure no 'engineering mistake' were made ?
This is stupid, it should be like in baseball where faulty referee calls are considered part of the game. Especially since I have never heard of machine getting inspected when you lose ;-)
> The TV makes people (especially kids) dumb
I am sure TV can be used in a limited manner (say 30 mins a day) to teach kids something. Unfortunately, you may have to search a bit or design your own programs since mainstream programming might not fit the bill most of the time.
As you mentioned, it is easier to use the Internet in a "filtered way" where you actually use it to enhance yourself. My point was that the typical Joe user isn't aware of this or that he is not interested is doing this, just like some TV users like to watch realty shows and sitcoms.
Some other posters have mentioned that the Internet is just making dumb people dumber and smart people smarter. In the end, it is the same for TV ;-)
Of course it can easily make you dumber, just like TV can make you dumber. The similitude has become to apply after 1995 when big players (telcos, etc.) became Internet providers and when companies and marketing agencies have become to realize to potential of Internet as a marketing tool and viewed it as just like another tool similar to TV.
Don't get me wrong, it is still possible to use the Internet to get smarter or at least more informed but given what I observe, it for the typical Joe user that uses it in a way comparable to a modern T.V. where you can play games running on the cable company hardware, it makes him dumber.
You could be surprised by how many people are proud to announce breaking news to me because they received an chain-email containing a ridiculous story that takes me about 30 seconds to debunk. The most worrying part is that they actually deeply believed it before sharing it with me.
Some people believe anything they watch on TV and read in newspaper. Nowadays, a lot of people believe anything they see on the Internet just like if they had seen it on TV.
Well to their defense, this is the way it was marketed and sold to them by the big players, just like an extension to TV with very low emphasis on educating people about the technology, security, etc.
It reminds me Cray supercomputers creator digging a tunnel under his home where he said he would find solutions to his problems while getting visited by elves ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Cray#Personal_life
They might not have the chance to go that far. Poll results published by La Presse today says that people are ready to go for a NDP-Liberal coalition as long as NDP leader, Jack Layton is prime minister. I am not sure if the Conservatives could form a majority government given an election. They have been a minority government for quite a while.
Canadian political system works pretty much like the one in U.K. and Canadians might have been inspired by the recent outcome in U.K.
La Presse is a French newspaper published in Montreal:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/politique-canadienne/201005/30/01-4285263-une-coalition-plc-npd-dirigee-par-layton-deferait-harper.php?utm_categorieinterne=trafficdrivers&utm_contenuinterne=cyberpresse_B42_acc-manchettes-dimanche_369233_accueil_POS1
> Technology is a wonderful thing - each year we're able to do more with less.
A perpetually growing economy usually involves the average wage rising so average people can buy more stuff while still working less.
Have you looked around lately ? In fact you are right in some way: every year we need less people, so by the market rule, the average wage goes down relatively to what you can buy for a dollar on average, especially food and lodging.
Well at least, they seem to start to realize that perpetual growth is impossible to achieve in a finite universe. For us, right now, this means our planet.
We may need to start businesses on other planets until we have conquered the whole universe in order to maintain the illusion that perpetual growth is possible.
Yet, the whole point of investing in the market is more or less (at least it was traditionally) based on a perpetual growth principle where there would always be new markets to conquer thus, rising stocks on average and a perpetually growing economy.
Since they seem to begin to realize that perpetual growth is impossible and that trading is what they have done all their life, they need to keep the profits coming in anyway. So they figured that by using "high-frequency algorithmic trading" they could keep the profits coming in.
Well, at the expense of whom ? How long can this trend be maintained before major problems arise in the economy ?
Nice exchange guys ;-)
IMHO, if it is theoretically possible to hack something. It will probably eventually get hacked without regards for the constraints for achieving the hack if the profit is considerable enough.
> Now I begin my bi annual ritual of backing up my data
Well, at least you seem to have a backup scheme in place ;-)
At what dept were they, let's say depth from the well head, when the incident occurred ?
Exactly I would say, but my background on the topic is 20 years old.
Hey ! Thanks for that ;-)
Very interesting indeed. I am re-reading your post again and I discover very interesting arguments every time.
I have worked in the fields in another life so I am familiar with the terms.
Thanks again for enlightening me, that's what I expected from /. and I do get it most of the time.