This is what I don't understand....why do people want to come out and defend Linux so much?
'Linux supports more devices out of the box than windows does. It's that simple.'
Yes - because Linux *has* to. The fact of the matter is, you'd be VERY hard pressed to find a single piece of hardware you can purchase that DOESN'T include drivers for Windows. And, you'd be very hard pressed to find hardware that DOES include support for Linux.
So yes, Linux supports more devices 'out of the box' if that's what you want to call it. But if you go and buy 100 different hardware devices from Best Buy, today, at least 99 of them are going to have CDs with Windows Drivers on them. You'd probably find 0 with Linux drivers on them, you'd almost certainly find 0 that proudly displays that it works in Linux.
So while what you say might TECHNICALLY be true, it misleads people. People read that and think 'Oh, Linux has more support for hardware than Windows'. But when they start using Linux and buying hardware - they'll learn the truth the hard way. Just like I did.
So why even say it? You and I both know that it doesn't mean what people are going to understand it to mean.
Why don't we change our meaning of 'out of the box' to be 'including everything in the box'. That means, if I buy a USB Network adapter and it comes with a CD, well that CD comes out of the box too. And it goes in my CD-ROM. If it has Linux drivers, then Linux supports it 'out of the box'. If it has Windows drivers, then Windows supports it out of the box. Use that definition and tell me Linux has more support 'out of the box' than Windows with a straight face...
Think about it, that definition is really more meaningul to consumers. They don't have to track anything down, edit any files, 99% of the time, it's as simple as putting in the CD, plugging in the device and possibly clicking next 1-3 times. That WORKS out of the box.
And again, you suggest that I stick to hardware that has specs...is it just that ALL Wireless USB adapters fail to 'follow specs'? I was under the impression that this was a fair basic/well established technology. Can you point me to a wireless usb network adapter that 'follows the specs' or whatever? One that would work, 'out of the box' (using our new definition of out of the box?)
First 'ndiswrapper' is a hack. It adds overhead, often fails to support encryption, limits the transfer speed, requires a seperate XP driver, and then for me, I experienced frequent disconnects.
I never said you couldn't hack together a quazi-solution to get my wi-fi up and working; what I said was, Linux people are misleading when they talk about hardware support and ease of use. If you are going to honestly tell me that doing....
Extract them to/opt/ndis/:
mkdir/opt/ndis
tar xvf WUSB300N.tar -C/opt/ndis/
cd/opt/ndis/Drivers
Install the Driver using NDISWrapper
sudo ndiswrapper -i netmw245.inf
installing netmw245...
# sudo ndiswrapper -l
netmw245 : driver installed
sudo modprobe ndiswrapper... go ahead and plug in the adapter...
sudo dmesg | grep ndis
"[ 9273.652000] ndiswrapper version 1.38 loaded (preempt=no,smp=yes)
[ 9273.712000] usbcore: registered new interface driver ndiswrapper
[ 9340.364000] ndiswrapper: driver netmw245 (Linksys, A Division of Cisco Systems, Inc.,12/07/2006,1.0.5.1) loaded"
You should now be able to go to your Network Applet Icon and see wireless network in the list.... or the command iwconfig should return an entry for wlan0, mine looks like this:
wlan0 IEEE 802.11FH ESSID:off/any
Mode:Managed Channel:0 Access Point: Not-Associated
Bit Rate=1 Mb/s Sensitivity=-200 dBm
RTS thr=2346 B Fragment thr=2346 B
Encryption key:off
Power Management:off
Link Quality:0 Signal level:0 Noise level:0
Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0
Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0
If you have an unprotected wireless hub, then issue this command to connect: # sudo dhcpclient wlan0
I changed my instructions listed above, so if you ran into trouble, here is how you need to undo the changes.
I assumed incorrectly that ndiswrapper loads the inf file and you don't need it on the system any more... this is incorrect. When you reboot the system, all of the contents of/tmp goes away and it breaks the WUSB300N. To undo this do the following:
1. The driver is still installed, but it is in a funky state because the inf file is missing. If you need to, download the tar file again as mentioned above and copy it to/opt/ndis/ as mention in the beginning of the instructions above.
2. You now have to delete the old driver, so copy the four files in the tar to the/tmp/Drivers/ directory like it originally was before you rebooted, then issue this command:
# sudo ndiswrapper -r netmw254
-- Now follow the instructions listed above... sorry for the confusion.
--
If you think thats as easy as it is in Windows, you are on crack. And even when it's up and working it's crap compared to how it performs in Windows. It's not supported by a default install.
Them: "Linux is great! It's as easy as Windows! Pop-in a CD and everything works! It's so user friendly now!"
Me: "Umm - my WiFi adapter doesn't seem to work"
You: "Well, you suck! It's your own damn fault! What did you expect?! LINUX to WORK with your WiFi adapter!?! What are you...STUPID? RETARDED? "
Me: "Umm - I dunno, I bought a WiFi adapter from Best Buy - none of the boxes say 'Linux Supported' on them. Seriously, not one. I even went to the Linux forums and asked for anyone to link me to an adapter I could buy online and nobody did. I even made this anti-linux post on SlashDot, where some guy said it was my own damn fault and while he made fun of me for expecting Linux to support my Wi-Fi adapter - even he couldn't provide for me a link to a wireless USB adapter that would be supported on a clean install of Ubuntu....'
So seriously, am I just a retarded who can't find a wireless USB adapter for Linux? Are there hundreds of people out there laughing because 'everyone' knows which wireless USB adapter I *should* have bought? Or is it really that nobody can actually point me to one?
Yes, but knowing that my devices don't work does very little to support the idea that Linux offers robust, out of the box, support for hardware.
When people read articles like this, and the general comments of Linux fans; they get the impression that Linux is as easy to install as Windows and offers the same level of support as Windows.
Look at how many people rag on Vista for hardware issues and drivers that cause their systems to crash. Vista as a tool too, to identify hardware that doesn't work - but unless I'm willing to go out and buy an entirely new computer with the sole purpose of running Linux on it; odds are, I'm going to have *something* that doesn't really work right.
For me, currently, it's that I can't get online without running a 40 foot CAT-5 Cable. I'm not willing to do that, and I'm not willing to run an OS that can't go online. I *am* willing to buy a new USB network adapter that works correctly in a default install of Ubuntu without any editing of config files or ndiswrap'in - but I've yet to have anyone point me to a USB network adapter that fits that criteria.
So it's frustrating when articles promoting ease of use and hardware compatibility pop-up.
Believe it or not...I actually have complained to LinkSys. I recieved a generic sort of auto-reply via email. But still, I tried.
But none of that changes the fact that, for years, Linux promoters have been overselling the support and experience of Linux. So I'm bitching about that here, too.
Like I said, I like Linux and I do wish hardware manufactures would do more to provide Linux drivers/brand their hardware as Linux compatible/sell computers with Linux pre-installed, etc, etc...
I just wish people would be honest about what Linux is and what it currently does. And some people are, but there are too many fanboys the drown them out.
Every OS has 100% hardware support for all of the devices that is supports perfectly.
Somehow, the above is enough to make people think Linux has great hardware support. Sure, it has great hardware support for the things it supports...but for everything else, which for the last...I dunno, 8 years, has included things I've already bought.
For *years*...quite literally, *years*...I've been hearing about how great Linux is. How it was always stable and secure, but it *used* to be difficult to use and lack hardware support. But NOW, it's GREAT! Now it's READY to replace windows.
Find an archive of Linux magazine and you can find articles like that all through the 90s.
Now, really, I don't care what OS you, or anyone else, decides to run. I really, really do like Linux. I think it's great. But it really ticks me off when people promote it to be something it's not. It's not a viable replacement for Windows, not yet. It doesn't have robust hardware support. Is it improving? Yeah, it is. And that good, for everyone; including Windows Users (at least IMHO).
But I'm sick and tired of hearing crap like 'we found playing music and watching movies in the new Ubuntu to be every bit as pleasant as it is under OS X or Windows... Wi-Fi, printing, my digital camera and even my iPod all worked immediately after installation -- no drivers or other software required' only to discover that the perfectly normal hardware I've got, that I buy from local retailers like BestBuy and Circuit City don't work. I'm not talking about fancy specialized things that the average desktop user might not have - I don't care about RAID support (and most home users don't either) or UPS support...but I want my Video card, Wi-Fi, Printer, MP3 player to work.
I'm just tired of hearing the same old, 'This is so easy and works so great' only to format my HD and install it. Then I head over to the Linux websites and Linux forums and I'm told, 'OH yeah - it doesn't ACTUALLY work like that. You need to run this command line guy and then go and download some drivers that are written for XP. Then do this, and that, and edit this. Now, modprobe this ndiswrap that and then, if you are lucky, your wi-fi will work. But it won't support encryption, and it's going to add overhead because we've added a software emulation layer. Oh and it will randomly drop your connection from time to time.'
So I hear Linux is as easy to use (only it took hours and multiple visits to get my WiFi to even sorta work), I hear Linux is more secure (only now I can't encrypt my wireless connection), I hear Linux is faster/more efficient (but I'm adding another layer/additional overhead to get online) and, on top of it all....the unsecured, CPU-cycle stealing, difficult to configure connection drops randomly.
And this is just my last attempt with Linux. There have been 4 others over the past 9 years or so...every time I read about how great Linux is and how it 'finally' has great hardware support and 'just works' I decide to give it a try only to discover that I can't do what I want.
Hell, I even posted an open-ended question in the Ubuntu forums asking someone, anyone, to link me to a specific wireless USB adapter that I can plug in/install Ubuntu and have it work. Without knowing the Chipset, or using fake drivers, or whatever; but not a single person provided me with anything. I'd be willing to buy a new adapter just to run Ubuntu, if someone could just point me to one that works.
If it's *that* hard to find a wireless USB adapter that is actually supported by the OS without hacks and crap - well, I'd say it's pretty unfair and misleading to tell people it's on the same level as Windows.
And yes, my hardware is all I actually care about when it comes to hardware support. And no, I don't care whose fault it is. If the hardware I buy comes with a CD with drivers on it for Windows and not for Linux - guess what? It works in Windows and not in Linux. I know that it's not the fault of Linux, I know that it doesn't make Linux a bad OS...but what Linux fans need to realise is that the lack of drivers means there is a lack of hardware support for Linux.
I need WiFi support from the wireless adapater I already own.
Let me know when Linux supports it? It's a LinkSys WUSB300N. If you could, just shoot an email to robdude01@hotmail.com when I can plug that sucker in, install Ubuntu and have it auto detected, supporting WEP, and allow me to surf the web without running hacks or using drivers intended for other OSes, or manually editing config files.
For years now, I've been hearing how great Linux is. I've even tried to use it a few times...but everytime I do, I find it lacks hardware support for what I've got.
I own a LinkSys WUSB300N Wireless USB Adapter (http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1160093476789&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper)
If I format my computer and install this new edition of Ubuntu will it detect this device, support encryption, and let me get online without running a bunch of hacks?
If so - I'll install it this weekend! If not, Linux fans, please STFU until things like a wireless adapter I bought at Best Buy works on a default install of your OS.
I'm sorry - I didn't have time to read your post; I was too busy paying $3 dollars for a new background image and $2 more dollars for a new ring-tone.
Because we all know it should cost $3 dollars to download a pathetically small.jpg image to your phone, or that the first 20 seconds of an.mp3 should cost $2 dollars. Heck, my phone can PLAY mp3's that I can send to it directly from my phone; but it won't let me play ANY of those as a ring tone. Nope, 'ring tones' are magical and can not simply be.mp3s. They need to be 'bought' for $2 dollars.
I seriously feel bad for non-technical people who pay for these things:(
The very day that Linux supports my wireless adapter!
Seriously, every year or two I download Linux and give it another go. And every year something fails to work. I know that some of you run Linux and that's great. And I know that some of you want everyone else to run Linux too, and that's great too.
But here is my wireless adapter:
http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1160093476789&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper&lid=7678939789B01
I've had it for months now, and I tried real damn hard to get it to work with Ubuntu. Hours, literally. I posted on the Ubuntu forums and some generic Linux forums, I even broke down and BEGGED someone, somewhere to link me to a WIRELESS USB NETWORK ADAPTER that I can buy online, of any speed that I can plug into my computer, install a particular distro of linux (I wanted Ubuntu, but ANY one you tell me) where that OS will recognize the wireless adapter, and be able to use basic WEP encryption.
Here are my choices....
1.) Run Windows; everything works, new games run, OS isn't as fast as it could be and maybe I'll have to reboot once every 2 days and I might get a virus once a year if I'm a retard.
2.) Run Linux; replace a bunch of hardware including my wireless network adapter, have crappy support for my video card and even worse support for new games....
3.) Run Mac; buy a new computer or deal with a bunch of emulators/hacks...have a bunch of hardware issues and lack of support for new games.
I don't like Windows. I think I'd like Linux better. I've tried real hard to run Linux; but it don't work.
To be fair; the fact that it's a simple application doesn't change anything. You aren't selectively downloading only the bits and pieces you need; you get the whole DirectX SDK and the whole Windows SDK.
Also, Visual Studio is just one of many IDEs available to you. It's not required. In fact, you can get the Express edition for free, and it takes significantly less space.
I'm not saying VS.Net isn't larger than I think it should be; but the size of SDKs is pretty meaningless IMHO. Download the SDK and delete from it everything except the actual files you need to compile your app and how big is it then?
My last two jobs (plus two offers I refused) came from Monster/CareerBuilder.
I put my resume up one night and the next day I had several emails, and phone calls. They do all the work; I check my email, check my voice mail and listen to the jobs. I call back the ones that seem like they don't suck. Then I go to the interview and get a job offer.
'Being buddies' with someone is the worst way to get a job. I mean, who cares about credentials or your ability to perform a task...just be buddy-buddy with someone to get the job...I think it's crap.
You are right, the concept of making a great computer chess player is simple. Conceptually, it's no different than Tic-Tac-Toe; and you've got 1st year Comp. Sci students that can code up a perfect Tic-Tac-Toe AI.
Essentially, what the computer does is test different 'trees' of moves. If I (the computer) move this pawn, then the other guy could make any of these 36 moves. If he makes the first of those 36 moves, I could make any of these moves, etc, etc. Each 'move' the computer assumes will increase the possible situations exponentially.
As people have said, the number of all possible moves is pretty insanely large, and as others have said, you could keep a game of chess going *forever*. You also need to give consideration to the time required to run through the calculations.
The difficulty is in deciding what logic to use to rule-out certain moves all together, to early return from a tree when you 'know' it's going to suck. You also need to come up with a system for determining 'how good' the outcome of a series of moves are.
The better your code, the faster it can process moves/the fewer moves it needs to process, and the further ahead it can look.
I thought Vista was the reason for my constant crashing in Battlefield Vietnam. So, I installed XP again. Crashed even more in XP.
Turns out it has to do with my particular type of processor.
Aside from that, Vista has been great for me. Although, I had to try quite a few different CD/DVD/etc burning software to find one that would do what I wanted.
I'm just wondering how many more years of listening to people claim the fall of Microsoft before I can say, 'Dude, you were wrong'.
It's a bit like chicken little screaming about the sky falling....
And, really, I'm being serious. At what point can I say 'Look, Linux fanboys - you were wrong'. Because of the nature of Linux - it won't ever disappear, someone will always be running it. But claims of it taking over, becoming the dominate desktop OS have been floating around for the last 10 years now. When I can I say 'Ha ha!'?
I think it's pretty silly to blame Microsoft for not bundling more software with it's OS when Microsoft would *LOVE* to bundle more software with it's OS and the legal system won't let it.
If MS only had 30% of the Market, it would be free to bundle anything it wanted, and believe me, MS would love to bundle everything. Remember that whole 'Web Browser' thing between IE and NetScape? MS bundled IE with the OS and....PEOPLE USED IT.
It was great for the end user - they buy Windows and they get more functionality. They can surf the web. It was BAD for Netscape (they pretty much disappeared)...and it's been how many years since and IE is still the number one browser, with FireFox in a distant second (even though everyone I know prefers FireFox).
Your analogy doesn't seem to fit:
"That's like the kid (Microsoft) who kills his parents (does something bad) pleading for mercy because he is an orphan. (consequence of something bad)"
"That's like the kid (Microsoft) who wins all of the spelling bees (doing something good - bundling software) pleading for mercy because he is no longer allowed to participate in spelling bees (being legally prevented from bundling software because of government regulators protecting the interests of other companies, not the consumers).
At least, short term. Long term, you could argue that, MS would have just bankrupt the competition and then the entire software industry would have been worse off due to that lack of competition.
Regardless, anyway you look at it - I don't see how you can 'blame' MS for it. You can certainly choose not to use MS because, regardless of the reason, the MS OS won't have as much bundled software as the Linux OS.
It's the same thing with Linux and hardware. I don't 'blame' Linux because it's hardware support sucks balls....
Slackware back in...97 - Couldn't recognize my ethernet card. Couldn't get online Linux.
Red Hat back in...~2002 - Couldn't recognize my MP3 player or my digital camera. Couldn't open my countless.xls Files. Couldn't play any games worth playing.
Ubuntu back in ~2007 - Couldn't recognize my wireless network card (couldn't recognize SEVERAL of my wireless network cards). Couldn't get online. Games are still lacking. Still can't open many of my.xls files. Trouble playing many of my video files. Oh, and terrible performance from my video card.
Linux still isn't particularly user friendly and it still isn't particularly pretty. Those are things (most) people care about.
I'm glad that the offer is out there, and I wish more people would take it.
But - ignoring legal issues/NDA and all of those very real concerns....I'd imagine that the support costs alone would be enough to want to ignore Linux.....
If 99.5% of your users are running Windows, and.05% are running Linux; and you stick 'Linux' as a supported OS - you're going to have to have trained staff who can troubleshoot and debug and everything that falls into the support area.
The truth is - I didn't know about that offer; and I really *don't* know why companies don't offer Linux drivers. If I could find a company that sells wireless USB adapters with a Linux driver on their CD - I'd buy it instantly. But I can't, but I do know there are very technical, very economical people working at companies like LinkSys who know far more than I do; and they are constantly evaluating the market for opportunities to make money. My best guess is that development time, costs, testing, and support outweigh the expected return.
I run Ubuntu myself, I also have a legit copy of Vista and a legit copy of XP. Using Ubuntu doesn't change the fact that MS already got my money. If you stopped using XP, decided not to purchase Vista, and now use Ubuntu and non-MS operating systems - then okay. But realize you are in the minority.
12 months ago, Windows had 90.39% of the Desktop OS Market. Now it has 90.46%.
Mac has seen an increase from 4.29% to 6.00%.
Other - Linux included - has seen a decrease, from 5.33% to 3.54%. A bunch of people who had been using Linux and other OS'es have switched to Linux.
A year ago - 83% were on XP, 6.7% on W2k, and 0% on Vista.
Now, 81% are on XP, 4% on W2k and 4.5% on Vista.
Windows has GAINED marketshare in the last year.
Two years ago, if I had asked which Linux Distro to install, I'd get 2-3 distros recommended to me. Now, I'd get 5 guys telling me to install Ubuntu. Ubuntu is not taking over Window's Marketshare.
I have trouble believing that hardware manufactures are out to do anything other than make money.
It costs money to develop drivers. As soon as they will make more money from offering Linux drivers than it costs them to produce Linux drivers - they will.
What this means is, Linux users, or *anyone* who wants to see native drivers in Linux needs to purchase hardware that comes with those drivers. From what I've heard, the Ubuntu PCs that Dell is selling makes up less than 1% of the PCs they sell (maybe that's a projection and not an actual)...
If you are in the business of making wireless network cards, and you sell them for $60 dollars and make $10 dollars on each sale....and you expect to sell 10,000 of a particular model if you market it only to Windows users...you'd get 100k.
If you open your market to include Linux users - you've added another 101 potential customers. And that's assuming you get 100% of the Linux market. Most Linux users are more than happy to write their own hacks (ndiswrapper - for example) to get it to work. At least half of the wireless users on the Ubuntu forums are using a hack to be able to use a Windows Driver. Now, the work to write a new driver for Linux is only going to add....50.5 potential customers; since the other half will just use a Windows driver anyway.
Assuming that those 50 Linux customers all buy your particular product....you are looking at...$500 dollars.
100k without Linux 100.5k with Linux
Now, factor in the cost to develop those Linux drivers. Is it more or less than the 500 dollars you stand to make?
Obviously, the numbers I used are all made up - but the point is perfectly valid, and it's exactly why there aren't native drivers for Linux.
The best thing people could do is to stop using hacks like ndiswrapper. Native support or consider the device a paperweight.
Slashdot Mirror
This is what I don't understand....why do people want to come out and defend Linux so much?
'Linux supports more devices out of the box than windows does. It's that simple.'
Yes - because Linux *has* to. The fact of the matter is, you'd be VERY hard pressed to find a single piece of hardware you can purchase that DOESN'T include drivers for Windows. And, you'd be very hard pressed to find hardware that DOES include support for Linux.
So yes, Linux supports more devices 'out of the box' if that's what you want to call it. But if you go and buy 100 different hardware devices from Best Buy, today, at least 99 of them are going to have CDs with Windows Drivers on them. You'd probably find 0 with Linux drivers on them, you'd almost certainly find 0 that proudly displays that it works in Linux.
So while what you say might TECHNICALLY be true, it misleads people. People read that and think 'Oh, Linux has more support for hardware than Windows'. But when they start using Linux and buying hardware - they'll learn the truth the hard way. Just like I did.
So why even say it? You and I both know that it doesn't mean what people are going to understand it to mean.
Why don't we change our meaning of 'out of the box' to be 'including everything in the box'. That means, if I buy a USB Network adapter and it comes with a CD, well that CD comes out of the box too. And it goes in my CD-ROM. If it has Linux drivers, then Linux supports it 'out of the box'. If it has Windows drivers, then Windows supports it out of the box. Use that definition and tell me Linux has more support 'out of the box' than Windows with a straight face...
Think about it, that definition is really more meaningul to consumers. They don't have to track anything down, edit any files, 99% of the time, it's as simple as putting in the CD, plugging in the device and possibly clicking next 1-3 times. That WORKS out of the box.
And again, you suggest that I stick to hardware that has specs...is it just that ALL Wireless USB adapters fail to 'follow specs'? I was under the impression that this was a fair basic/well established technology. Can you point me to a wireless usb network adapter that 'follows the specs' or whatever? One that would work, 'out of the box' (using our new definition of out of the box?)
Umm - not after reading that crap....
/opt/ndis/: /opt/ndis /opt/ndis/ /opt/ndis/Drivers
...
... go ahead and plug in the adapter ...
... or the command iwconfig should return an entry for wlan0, mine looks like this:
... this is incorrect. When you reboot the system, all of the contents of /tmp goes away and it breaks the WUSB300N. To undo this do the following:
/opt/ndis/ as mention in the beginning of the instructions above.
/tmp/Drivers/ directory like it originally was before you rebooted, then issue this command:
... sorry for the confusion.
First 'ndiswrapper' is a hack. It adds overhead, often fails to support encryption, limits the transfer speed, requires a seperate XP driver, and then for me, I experienced frequent disconnects.
I never said you couldn't hack together a quazi-solution to get my wi-fi up and working; what I said was, Linux people are misleading when they talk about hardware support and ease of use. If you are going to honestly tell me that doing....
--
Download the drivers:
http://www.atvnation.com/WUSB300N.tar
Extract them to
mkdir
tar xvf WUSB300N.tar -C
cd
Install the Driver using NDISWrapper
sudo ndiswrapper -i netmw245.inf
installing netmw245
# sudo ndiswrapper -l
netmw245 : driver installed
sudo modprobe ndiswrapper
sudo dmesg | grep ndis
"[ 9273.652000] ndiswrapper version 1.38 loaded (preempt=no,smp=yes)
[ 9273.712000] usbcore: registered new interface driver ndiswrapper
[ 9340.364000] ndiswrapper: driver netmw245 (Linksys, A Division of Cisco Systems, Inc.,12/07/2006,1.0.5.1) loaded"
You should now be able to go to your Network Applet Icon and see wireless network in the list.
wlan0 IEEE 802.11FH ESSID:off/any
Mode:Managed Channel:0 Access Point: Not-Associated
Bit Rate=1 Mb/s Sensitivity=-200 dBm
RTS thr=2346 B Fragment thr=2346 B
Encryption key:off
Power Management:off
Link Quality:0 Signal level:0 Noise level:0
Rx invalid nwid:0 Rx invalid crypt:0 Rx invalid frag:0
Tx excessive retries:0 Invalid misc:0 Missed beacon:0
If you have an unprotected wireless hub, then issue this command to connect:
# sudo dhcpclient wlan0
I changed my instructions listed above, so if you ran into trouble, here is how you need to undo the changes.
I assumed incorrectly that ndiswrapper loads the inf file and you don't need it on the system any more
1. The driver is still installed, but it is in a funky state because the inf file is missing. If you need to, download the tar file again as mentioned above and copy it to
2. You now have to delete the old driver, so copy the four files in the tar to the
# sudo ndiswrapper -r netmw254
-- Now follow the instructions listed above
--
If you think thats as easy as it is in Windows, you are on crack. And even when it's up and working it's crap compared to how it performs in Windows. It's not supported by a default install.
Yes - it is my own damn fault.
Them: "Linux is great! It's as easy as Windows! Pop-in a CD and everything works! It's so user friendly now!"
Me: "Umm - my WiFi adapter doesn't seem to work"
You: "Well, you suck! It's your own damn fault! What did you expect?! LINUX to WORK with your WiFi adapter!?! What are you...STUPID? RETARDED? "
Me: "Umm - I dunno, I bought a WiFi adapter from Best Buy - none of the boxes say 'Linux Supported' on them. Seriously, not one. I even went to the Linux forums and asked for anyone to link me to an adapter I could buy online and nobody did. I even made this anti-linux post on SlashDot, where some guy said it was my own damn fault and while he made fun of me for expecting Linux to support my Wi-Fi adapter - even he couldn't provide for me a link to a wireless USB adapter that would be supported on a clean install of Ubuntu....'
So seriously, am I just a retarded who can't find a wireless USB adapter for Linux? Are there hundreds of people out there laughing because 'everyone' knows which wireless USB adapter I *should* have bought? Or is it really that nobody can actually point me to one?
Yes, but knowing that my devices don't work does very little to support the idea that Linux offers robust, out of the box, support for hardware.
When people read articles like this, and the general comments of Linux fans; they get the impression that Linux is as easy to install as Windows and offers the same level of support as Windows.
Look at how many people rag on Vista for hardware issues and drivers that cause their systems to crash. Vista as a tool too, to identify hardware that doesn't work - but unless I'm willing to go out and buy an entirely new computer with the sole purpose of running Linux on it; odds are, I'm going to have *something* that doesn't really work right.
For me, currently, it's that I can't get online without running a 40 foot CAT-5 Cable. I'm not willing to do that, and I'm not willing to run an OS that can't go online. I *am* willing to buy a new USB network adapter that works correctly in a default install of Ubuntu without any editing of config files or ndiswrap'in - but I've yet to have anyone point me to a USB network adapter that fits that criteria.
So it's frustrating when articles promoting ease of use and hardware compatibility pop-up.
Believe it or not...I actually have complained to LinkSys. I recieved a generic sort of auto-reply via email. But still, I tried.
But none of that changes the fact that, for years, Linux promoters have been overselling the support and experience of Linux. So I'm bitching about that here, too.
Like I said, I like Linux and I do wish hardware manufactures would do more to provide Linux drivers/brand their hardware as Linux compatible/sell computers with Linux pre-installed, etc, etc...
I just wish people would be honest about what Linux is and what it currently does. And some people are, but there are too many fanboys the drown them out.
Every OS has 100% hardware support for all of the devices that is supports perfectly.
Somehow, the above is enough to make people think Linux has great hardware support. Sure, it has great hardware support for the things it supports...but for everything else, which for the last...I dunno, 8 years, has included things I've already bought.
For *years*...quite literally, *years*...I've been hearing about how great Linux is. How it was always stable and secure, but it *used* to be difficult to use and lack hardware support. But NOW, it's GREAT! Now it's READY to replace windows.
Find an archive of Linux magazine and you can find articles like that all through the 90s.
Now, really, I don't care what OS you, or anyone else, decides to run. I really, really do like Linux. I think it's great. But it really ticks me off when people promote it to be something it's not. It's not a viable replacement for Windows, not yet. It doesn't have robust hardware support. Is it improving? Yeah, it is. And that good, for everyone; including Windows Users (at least IMHO).
But I'm sick and tired of hearing crap like 'we found playing music and watching movies in the new Ubuntu to be every bit as pleasant as it is under OS X or Windows... Wi-Fi, printing, my digital camera and even my iPod all worked immediately after installation -- no drivers or other software required' only to discover that the perfectly normal hardware I've got, that I buy from local retailers like BestBuy and Circuit City don't work. I'm not talking about fancy specialized things that the average desktop user might not have - I don't care about RAID support (and most home users don't either) or UPS support...but I want my Video card, Wi-Fi, Printer, MP3 player to work.
I'm just tired of hearing the same old, 'This is so easy and works so great' only to format my HD and install it. Then I head over to the Linux websites and Linux forums and I'm told, 'OH yeah - it doesn't ACTUALLY work like that. You need to run this command line guy and then go and download some drivers that are written for XP. Then do this, and that, and edit this. Now, modprobe this ndiswrap that and then, if you are lucky, your wi-fi will work. But it won't support encryption, and it's going to add overhead because we've added a software emulation layer. Oh and it will randomly drop your connection from time to time.'
So I hear Linux is as easy to use (only it took hours and multiple visits to get my WiFi to even sorta work), I hear Linux is more secure (only now I can't encrypt my wireless connection), I hear Linux is faster/more efficient (but I'm adding another layer/additional overhead to get online) and, on top of it all....the unsecured, CPU-cycle stealing, difficult to configure connection drops randomly.
And this is just my last attempt with Linux. There have been 4 others over the past 9 years or so...every time I read about how great Linux is and how it 'finally' has great hardware support and 'just works' I decide to give it a try only to discover that I can't do what I want.
Hell, I even posted an open-ended question in the Ubuntu forums asking someone, anyone, to link me to a specific wireless USB adapter that I can plug in/install Ubuntu and have it work. Without knowing the Chipset, or using fake drivers, or whatever; but not a single person provided me with anything. I'd be willing to buy a new adapter just to run Ubuntu, if someone could just point me to one that works.
If it's *that* hard to find a wireless USB adapter that is actually supported by the OS without hacks and crap - well, I'd say it's pretty unfair and misleading to tell people it's on the same level as Windows.
And yes, my hardware is all I actually care about when it comes to hardware support. And no, I don't care whose fault it is. If the hardware I buy comes with a CD with drivers on it for Windows and not for Linux - guess what? It works in Windows and not in Linux. I know that it's not the fault of Linux, I know that it doesn't make Linux a bad OS...but what Linux fans need to realise is that the lack of drivers means there is a lack of hardware support for Linux.
I need WiFi support from the wireless adapater I already own.
Let me know when Linux supports it? It's a LinkSys WUSB300N. If you could, just shoot an email to robdude01@hotmail.com when I can plug that sucker in, install Ubuntu and have it auto detected, supporting WEP, and allow me to surf the web without running hacks or using drivers intended for other OSes, or manually editing config files.
For years now, I've been hearing how great Linux is. I've even tried to use it a few times...but everytime I do, I find it lacks hardware support for what I've got.
I own a LinkSys WUSB300N Wireless USB Adapter (http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1160093476789&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper)
If I format my computer and install this new edition of Ubuntu will it detect this device, support encryption, and let me get online without running a bunch of hacks?
If so - I'll install it this weekend! If not, Linux fans, please STFU until things like a wireless adapter I bought at Best Buy works on a default install of your OS.
I'm sorry - I didn't have time to read your post; I was too busy paying $3 dollars for a new background image and $2 more dollars for a new ring-tone.
.jpg image to your phone, or that the first 20 seconds of an .mp3 should cost $2 dollars. Heck, my phone can PLAY mp3's that I can send to it directly from my phone; but it won't let me play ANY of those as a ring tone. Nope, 'ring tones' are magical and can not simply be .mp3s. They need to be 'bought' for $2 dollars.
:(
Because we all know it should cost $3 dollars to download a pathetically small
I seriously feel bad for non-technical people who pay for these things
The very day that Linux supports my wireless adapter! Seriously, every year or two I download Linux and give it another go. And every year something fails to work. I know that some of you run Linux and that's great. And I know that some of you want everyone else to run Linux too, and that's great too. But here is my wireless adapter: http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1160093476789&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper&lid=7678939789B01 I've had it for months now, and I tried real damn hard to get it to work with Ubuntu. Hours, literally. I posted on the Ubuntu forums and some generic Linux forums, I even broke down and BEGGED someone, somewhere to link me to a WIRELESS USB NETWORK ADAPTER that I can buy online, of any speed that I can plug into my computer, install a particular distro of linux (I wanted Ubuntu, but ANY one you tell me) where that OS will recognize the wireless adapter, and be able to use basic WEP encryption. Here are my choices.... 1.) Run Windows; everything works, new games run, OS isn't as fast as it could be and maybe I'll have to reboot once every 2 days and I might get a virus once a year if I'm a retard. 2.) Run Linux; replace a bunch of hardware including my wireless network adapter, have crappy support for my video card and even worse support for new games.... 3.) Run Mac; buy a new computer or deal with a bunch of emulators/hacks...have a bunch of hardware issues and lack of support for new games. I don't like Windows. I think I'd like Linux better. I've tried real hard to run Linux; but it don't work.
To be fair; the fact that it's a simple application doesn't change anything. You aren't selectively downloading only the bits and pieces you need; you get the whole DirectX SDK and the whole Windows SDK. Also, Visual Studio is just one of many IDEs available to you. It's not required. In fact, you can get the Express edition for free, and it takes significantly less space. I'm not saying VS.Net isn't larger than I think it should be; but the size of SDKs is pretty meaningless IMHO. Download the SDK and delete from it everything except the actual files you need to compile your app and how big is it then?
Oddly enough - Robert Paulson is my name too.
I disagree completely...
My last two jobs (plus two offers I refused) came from Monster/CareerBuilder.
I put my resume up one night and the next day I had several emails, and phone calls. They do all the work; I check my email, check my voice mail and listen to the jobs. I call back the ones that seem like they don't suck. Then I go to the interview and get a job offer.
'Being buddies' with someone is the worst way to get a job. I mean, who cares about credentials or your ability to perform a task...just be buddy-buddy with someone to get the job...I think it's crap.
You are right, the concept of making a great computer chess player is simple. Conceptually, it's no different than Tic-Tac-Toe; and you've got 1st year Comp. Sci students that can code up a perfect Tic-Tac-Toe AI.
Essentially, what the computer does is test different 'trees' of moves. If I (the computer) move this pawn, then the other guy could make any of these 36 moves. If he makes the first of those 36 moves, I could make any of these moves, etc, etc. Each 'move' the computer assumes will increase the possible situations exponentially.
As people have said, the number of all possible moves is pretty insanely large, and as others have said, you could keep a game of chess going *forever*. You also need to give consideration to the time required to run through the calculations.
The difficulty is in deciding what logic to use to rule-out certain moves all together, to early return from a tree when you 'know' it's going to suck. You also need to come up with a system for determining 'how good' the outcome of a series of moves are.
The better your code, the faster it can process moves/the fewer moves it needs to process, and the further ahead it can look.
I thought Vista was the reason for my constant crashing in Battlefield Vietnam. So, I installed XP again. Crashed even more in XP. Turns out it has to do with my particular type of processor. Aside from that, Vista has been great for me. Although, I had to try quite a few different CD/DVD/etc burning software to find one that would do what I wanted.
Quite the opposite, I'm a big fan of Linux....
I'm just wondering how many more years of listening to people claim the fall of Microsoft before I can say, 'Dude, you were wrong'.
It's a bit like chicken little screaming about the sky falling....
And, really, I'm being serious. At what point can I say 'Look, Linux fanboys - you were wrong'. Because of the nature of Linux - it won't ever disappear, someone will always be running it. But claims of it taking over, becoming the dominate desktop OS have been floating around for the last 10 years now. When I can I say 'Ha ha!'?
You remind me of the Linux guys who used to say that by the year 2000 MS will be no more....
I think it's pretty silly to blame Microsoft for not bundling more software with it's OS when Microsoft would *LOVE* to bundle more software with it's OS and the legal system won't let it.
If MS only had 30% of the Market, it would be free to bundle anything it wanted, and believe me, MS would love to bundle everything. Remember that whole 'Web Browser' thing between IE and NetScape? MS bundled IE with the OS and....PEOPLE USED IT.
It was great for the end user - they buy Windows and they get more functionality. They can surf the web. It was BAD for Netscape (they pretty much disappeared)...and it's been how many years since and IE is still the number one browser, with FireFox in a distant second (even though everyone I know prefers FireFox).
Your analogy doesn't seem to fit:
"That's like the kid (Microsoft) who kills his parents (does something bad) pleading for mercy because he is an orphan. (consequence of something bad)"
"That's like the kid (Microsoft) who wins all of the spelling bees (doing something good - bundling software) pleading for mercy because he is no longer allowed to participate in spelling bees (being legally prevented from bundling software because of government regulators protecting the interests of other companies, not the consumers).
At least, short term. Long term, you could argue that, MS would have just bankrupt the competition and then the entire software industry would have been worse off due to that lack of competition.
Regardless, anyway you look at it - I don't see how you can 'blame' MS for it. You can certainly choose not to use MS because, regardless of the reason, the MS OS won't have as much bundled software as the Linux OS.
It's the same thing with Linux and hardware. I don't 'blame' Linux because it's hardware support sucks balls....
You can't really blame MS for that. MS would love to bundle more software but it can't because of that whole 'monopoly' thing.
Yeah, for the average user (at least short term), it would be a much better experience; they'd have MS Everything software.
Slackware back in...97 - Couldn't recognize my ethernet card. Couldn't get online Linux.
.xls Files. Couldn't play any games worth playing.
.xls files. Trouble playing many of my video files. Oh, and terrible performance from my video card.
Red Hat back in...~2002 - Couldn't recognize my MP3 player or my digital camera. Couldn't open my countless
Ubuntu back in ~2007 - Couldn't recognize my wireless network card (couldn't recognize SEVERAL of my wireless network cards). Couldn't get online. Games are still lacking. Still can't open many of my
Linux still isn't particularly user friendly and it still isn't particularly pretty. Those are things (most) people care about.
Ahh - that's totally my fault - sorry for my snippy reply.
There isn't a way to edit these things, is there?
Huh?
Umm - no, the numbers I posted are very much in alignment with my original statement.
I'm glad that the offer is out there, and I wish more people would take it.
.05% are running Linux; and you stick 'Linux' as a supported OS - you're going to have to have trained staff who can troubleshoot and debug and everything that falls into the support area.
But - ignoring legal issues/NDA and all of those very real concerns....I'd imagine that the support costs alone would be enough to want to ignore Linux.....
If 99.5% of your users are running Windows, and
The truth is - I didn't know about that offer; and I really *don't* know why companies don't offer Linux drivers. If I could find a company that sells wireless USB adapters with a Linux driver on their CD - I'd buy it instantly. But I can't, but I do know there are very technical, very economical people working at companies like LinkSys who know far more than I do; and they are constantly evaluating the market for opportunities to make money. My best guess is that development time, costs, testing, and support outweigh the expected return.
I run Ubuntu myself, I also have a legit copy of Vista and a legit copy of XP. Using Ubuntu doesn't change the fact that MS already got my money. If you stopped using XP, decided not to purchase Vista, and now use Ubuntu and non-MS operating systems - then okay. But realize you are in the minority.
12 months ago, Windows had 90.39% of the Desktop OS Market. Now it has 90.46%.
Mac has seen an increase from 4.29% to 6.00%.
Other - Linux included - has seen a decrease, from 5.33% to 3.54%. A bunch of people who had been using Linux and other OS'es have switched to Linux.
A year ago - 83% were on XP, 6.7% on W2k, and 0% on Vista.
Now, 81% are on XP, 4% on W2k and 4.5% on Vista.
Windows has GAINED marketshare in the last year.
Two years ago, if I had asked which Linux Distro to install, I'd get 2-3 distros recommended to me. Now, I'd get 5 guys telling me to install Ubuntu. Ubuntu is not taking over Window's Marketshare.
I have trouble believing that hardware manufactures are out to do anything other than make money.
It costs money to develop drivers. As soon as they will make more money from offering Linux drivers than it costs them to produce Linux drivers - they will.
What this means is, Linux users, or *anyone* who wants to see native drivers in Linux needs to purchase hardware that comes with those drivers. From what I've heard, the Ubuntu PCs that Dell is selling makes up less than 1% of the PCs they sell (maybe that's a projection and not an actual)...
If you are in the business of making wireless network cards, and you sell them for $60 dollars and make $10 dollars on each sale....and you expect to sell 10,000 of a particular model if you market it only to Windows users...you'd get 100k.
If you open your market to include Linux users - you've added another 101 potential customers. And that's assuming you get 100% of the Linux market. Most Linux users are more than happy to write their own hacks (ndiswrapper - for example) to get it to work. At least half of the wireless users on the Ubuntu forums are using a hack to be able to use a Windows Driver. Now, the work to write a new driver for Linux is only going to add....50.5 potential customers; since the other half will just use a Windows driver anyway.
Assuming that those 50 Linux customers all buy your particular product....you are looking at...$500 dollars.
100k without Linux
100.5k with Linux
Now, factor in the cost to develop those Linux drivers. Is it more or less than the 500 dollars you stand to make?
Obviously, the numbers I used are all made up - but the point is perfectly valid, and it's exactly why there aren't native drivers for Linux.
The best thing people could do is to stop using hacks like ndiswrapper. Native support or consider the device a paperweight.