I hope I interpreted this incorrectly, but the last statement in the article seemed to imply that MS was attempting to force Sun to implement additional classes in order to bring MS perversion of Java into compliance and that the judge was actually considering this? I wish I could come up with a proper analogy on why this is a bad-thing tm, but Iam too flabergasted by the gall of this to even think clearly.
When questioned by Computerworld reporters, Microsoft officials couldn't specify any incorrect or misleading information in the March 29 story.
Imagine that... they (MS) claims the article contains incorrect and misleading information, but is unable to provide an example or counterpoint. As others have said, this is so typical of MS, that it amazes me that these types of things still surprise me.
I spent 6 years in our lovely nations capital. It is (was) illegal to own any type of firearm within the boundaries of the District of Columbia, but D.C has the highest-per-capita murder rate by shootings of *anywhere* in the world. At the time I was living there, on average a person was shot to death every 13 hours.
One of the funniest things regarding Gun Control in DC was when Carl Rowen (writer for the Washington Post, BIG proponent of gun control, resident of DC) shot a teenager with an unregistered handgun for tresspassing (the kid thought Rowen was out of town and was using Rowen's swimming pool).
Advocacy, Religious Zealots and Journalists
on
Linux Advocacy Hurts
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· Score: 1
I had to go back and re-read his post on the Mindcraft report. It seemed to me that all the author had done was to repeat the information without any thought or checking of the facts. And for this, he deserves the 1000 emails that berated him.
That said, his article today does make a valid point. It does make us (Linux community (I do wish there was a better word)) seem a bit lunatic to the general computing populace when some Linux Advocates reply to any non-Linux thought as FUD with vulgar language. This is not a Good Thing (tm). Well written, thoughtful replys that tactfully point out the errors will be better received and have a better chance of being heard.
Now for all you Katz haters out there, at least he (Katz) relishes the flames, and doesn't whine in a public forum about it, like the author of this article;)
Actually, my first thought was that this (RMS's GNU-Linux whining AGAINST the Linux movement... ) was the only thing that Boling got correct in his article.
I agree with you on this... it shows a very real problem within the OS community when we resort to such petty bickerings.
Since the earliest days of computing and online services, companies such as AOL have used volunteer help. I recall when Compuserve was the place to be online. The chat and forums were completely manned by volunteers. And the pay was always free access time. This is nothing new in the industry. While I personally have no love for AOL, I hope to see them win in this instance. The volunteers have stated that they were committed to only 4 hours per week, plus paperwork (another hour or two?). Most of us put that amount of time in per day without any kind of recompense. This will just make it harder for us to have a say in how our online communities will be run/setup/whathaveyou.
I have to admit that I thought it was a fairly well written article (even if their points of fact were easily refutable), until I got about 1/2 the way thru and came across this statement:
Unix is a proprietary operating system intended to compete against Microsoft Windows; originally OSS, later versions of Unix were made proprietary by Sun Microsystems, Hewlett-Packard and other companies.
Imagine my surprise when I learned that Windose has been around for over 30 years. I stopped reading at this point, as the author(s) lost all credibilty.
He's just trying to get his techno-ignorant self into the minds of the cyber-demographic... Like our votes will make a difference?
Jesse Ventura did get elected as govenor based largely upon a very successful Internet campaign. Gore is a politician through-and-through. He has seen this medium used to great success and only a fool would ignore the Internet in these days. Recall that in one speech Gore reported that the tobacco companies must all be held liable for the great harm they have done to the American public, and in a speech the following week he took great pride in saying that he came from a family of tobacco growers.
Unfortunately, M$ will continue to dominate the desktop client market for quite some time, due to momentum and the difficulty and expense of retraining users to use a new client platform. (No flames please, this is just my opinion.)
For what its worth, I will state that you are correct about this. Corporations have bought into the Windows desktop. They are not about to just replace X thousands of OS's, the costs would be staggering (I am not talking about the cost of the OS, but the cost of retraining users, upgrading each desktop and the (temporary) increase in the number of support calls).
Apple has no obligation to realease the source to their software, so why should we care what type of license they use?
I don't have the APSL in front of me, so...
1) The APSL states that Apple may, at any time, revoke your license to use the software. So, if you are developer and have put hundreds of hours into making adjustments so that it fits your needs, you are suddenly without recourse, and your million dollar project is now DOA.
2) All changes that you make must be submitted to Apple.
3) and if Apple revokes your rights to the license, they get keep and use your modifications without compensating you.
These are the concerns that most of us have with the APSL.
Any prudent devoleper should read the fine print, and if they decide they do not like the terms, not work on it. Work on software that has terms that you do agree with,
This is very true, and this is what Apple will discover in the very near future. With the correction of these few minor problems, Apple will have a win-win situation... good publicity and some very good programmers improving their products.
If they had incorporated the mp3 searcher into their original search engine instead of opening a mp3.lycos section, noone would have noticed, but it would still BE there.
From a business point of view... If you follow the links on Lycos for its MP3 Search, you will find information on how to obtain, install and use a ripper to pull tracks directly off of a CD. This information is displayed on a Lycos Webpage, created by a Lycos employee. It is not a link that Lycos happens to be displaying. This certainly implies that Lycos is advocating the illegal use of copyrighted materials. I can certainly see why the music industry (tm) would be upset about this.
No one is saying that allowing small bands to place their own music on the web in MP3 format is bad, or illegal. The music industry is concerned with the illegal use and distribution of material that it owns.
Now, I also think that the music industry would like to see MP3 banned, and closing off access to the small independent bands, thus ensuring their own monoply on an already tightly controlled industry, and a continuing increase in their own bottom lines. However, that is not what the possible lawsuit against Lycos is about.
NOTE: I am not stating that Lycos does or does not advocate music piracy. These are my opinions as expressed by me.
Even if MS modifies the kernel and Linus doesn't like the modification? what can they do?
Lets see... they (MS) forks the code and uses its marketing steamroller to flood the masses that the MS Kernal is one-true-kernal...
1. Linux community (most of them) = technical experts, so they can find all the secret nasty stuff in a day or 2.
You forget... MS does NOT market to the technical crowd. MS is interested in desktop/market share. Thats means corporate and Mom-n-Pop. As stated many many times, Mom and Pop don't want to or care to compile their kernal.
2. There are many reporters who read slashdot.org and would be happy to publish any nasty stuff MS did
And the overall effect of this is... ?
The majority of the negative press is in technical journals and on technical websites. Again, Mom and Pop don't read/. (can't imagine why). They watch the nightly news and some sitcoms on the telly.. where MS advertising rules, not/. articles.
Just remember, just because we're paranoid doesn't mean that MS isn't out to get us. Now is a perfect time for MS to cause a code fork. This could be devasting to the movement.
Ok, rather sketchy memory, but I recall reading a number of months ago that MS did a port of IE to (I believe) Solaris, using a third party tool that emulated the Win API. Haven't seen anything on it recently, and I don't even recall exactly where it was I read it (although I am reasonably it was an article here).
So, I see it as entirely reasonable that an MS port of IE is in the medium-near future... scary as that might be.
ESR has a lot of goot things to say... sometimes he's downright eloquent. I think he's right on with his dissection of Ed Muth's rhetoric.
If I recall correctly, Ed Muth merely stated the standard MS rhetoric about the shortcomings of Linux. ESR replies by immediately resorting to insults and name calling. While I thought ESR's response to the Halloween document were insightful, lately his writting has really degenerated into the infantile. He has, apparently, shed his eloquence and any respect for the guise of infamy. Hardly the spokesperson that the Linux community requires.
Many of the same things I have been stating here over the past several months. Perhaps some of it will sink in since it comes from someone with a bit more popularity/recognition than I obviously have.
This attitude is fine, if you wish for Linux to remain a hobbiest Operating System. However, since most people would like to see Linux put a serious dent into the M$ monopoly (including Linus), the answer to that is users. And users will not move to an OS that lacks the applications that they need or are familiar with. The average user doesn't care about the kernel version or which version of glibc he or she needs.
If the user cannot *use* his or her machine in an effecient manner, then they will not change, technical superiority not withstanding. Period.
The media has shined a very large spotlight on our community. Very large companies have voiced support and some have even begun to provide very good products. However, without an increasing user base, how long do you believe this support will continue?
Well, its in the news today, in all likelyhood, due to the DOJ trail. However, Caldera has been trying to get this to trial for a number of years now. Remember, M$ has about 20Billion dollars. That buys quite a lot of lawyers and they (M$) could drag this case out for another 20 years.
As stated in the letter, The Tetris Company is claiming a violation of a Look and Feel copyright. As has been tried several times over the years (Lotus vs. Borland, Apple vs. Microsoft) here in the states, Look and Feel copyrights are not (or at least have not been) enforced/enforceable.
The problem is, as stated, the target is merely a student, and most likely doesnot have access to the required monies to defend himself in what passes for the court of law.
, freedom is what linux is about, it's what led to its technical superiority and wide recognition it's getting now. You people are losing sight of how it all started
Well, actually, it (Linux) started as a hobby. One day Linus popped into comp.os.minux and said "Hey, I've this OS I've been tinkering with and... ". And as they say, the rest is history.
Of course, even in the early days of Linux(around version.08 or so), Linux was an elitist-snobbish group, so that hasn't really changed in the past 7 or 8 years. But this Linux is freedom bs that people have been spouting was never the intent. A sad after thought perhaps, to take a cool piece of software and turn it into a political adjenda.
Well, I agree with the statement that bashing MS for bashing sake is getting tiresome. However, what most of the respondents have forgotten to take into consideration is the reply of companies like Toshiba.
Yes, MS says we need to go through the OEM. In turn, the OEMs are saying that they have a contract with MS that forces them to preload the software on the machines, and MS refuses to work with them on the return of said software.
So, in fact, this course of attack is pretty much spot on.
Hmm, for some reason I always got the impression that he was some closet-Mac abuser. Now, I haven't read any of his drivel since the mid-late 80's, so I could have a few leaks in the old memory. But as I recall, he was a regular writer for Mac User magazine.
About the only article he wrote that I actually agreed with was his tirade against 5.25 floppies. This was an article in the DEC Professional magazine sometime around 88-89.
The point of the article is not that users can successfully use Front Page to create web pages, but Microsoft's campaign to hijack open standards.
Well, if you had bothered to read all of the subsequent posts as the person you refer to had, you would have realised that the discussion had, as per the norm here on/., turned into a MS-bashing and was no longer referring to the original topic.
You are just a weak imitation of your evil twin in that campaign - Jackass
This is too easy... but I will say that the simpleminded, when unable to defend an idea with intelligent conversation resort to such tactics thus undermining any respect that they would have garnered.
Hmm, a well written, thoughtful post... could I possibly be on the wrong site?
I would rather raise awareness of the limitations of Microsoft stuff even as I help people work with it. It's on their desks, they need to do work, and they need to exchange stuff with other people.
This is probably one of the larger points that most people seem to be overlooking. I'm currently contracting with a nationwide bank, that has over 30,000 employees. All evil-MSism's aside, the TCO (total cost of ownership (support, installation, training, NOT merely the cost of the software)) would be staggering. You cannot merely absorb such a cost because of the Microsoft bad, Linux good mentality.
Phred is taking the proper approach. Informing people, showing them that there are better, cheaper alternatives. Contrary to popular belief, people aren't all lemmings. Show them, don't berate them, they will learn and they will become better for it.
I was a VB conference (hey... it pays the bills so I can work on free as in speech not beer software) and saw a demo of VB 4, way back when. Every one was quite impressed with its performance right up until the part where it was discovered that the entire demo, including the Windows startup sequence, was a PowerPoint slide demo.
Slashdot Mirror
I hope I interpreted this incorrectly, but the last statement in the article seemed to imply that MS was attempting to force Sun to implement additional classes in order to bring MS perversion of Java into compliance and that the judge was actually considering this? I wish I could come up with a proper analogy on why this is a bad-thing tm, but Iam too flabergasted by the gall of this to even think clearly.
Imagine that... they (MS) claims the article contains incorrect and misleading information, but is unable to provide an example or counterpoint. As others have said, this is so typical of MS, that it amazes me that these types of things still surprise me.
Just to add a bit to this ...
I spent 6 years in our lovely nations capital. It is (was) illegal to own any type of firearm within the boundaries of the District of Columbia, but D.C has the highest-per-capita murder rate by shootings of *anywhere* in the world. At the time I was living there, on average a person was shot to death every 13 hours.
One of the funniest things regarding Gun Control in DC was when Carl Rowen (writer for the Washington Post, BIG proponent of gun control, resident of DC) shot a teenager with an unregistered handgun for tresspassing (the kid thought Rowen was out of town and was using Rowen's swimming pool).
That said, his article today does make a valid point. It does make us (Linux community (I do wish there was a better word)) seem a bit lunatic to the general computing populace when some Linux Advocates reply to any non-Linux thought as FUD with vulgar language. This is not a Good Thing (tm). Well written, thoughtful replys that tactfully point out the errors will be better received and have a better chance of being heard.
Now for all you Katz haters out there, at least he (Katz) relishes the flames, and doesn't whine in a public forum about it, like the author of this article ;)
I agree with you on this... it shows a very real problem within the OS community when we resort to such petty bickerings.
Since the earliest days of computing and online services, companies such as AOL have used volunteer help. I recall when Compuserve was the place to be online. The chat and forums were completely manned by volunteers. And the pay was always free access time. This is nothing new in the industry. While I personally have no love for AOL, I hope to see them win in this instance. The volunteers have stated that they were committed to only 4 hours per week, plus paperwork (another hour or two?). Most of us put that amount of time in per day without any kind of recompense. This will just make it harder for us to have a say in how our online communities will be run/setup/whathaveyou.
Unix is a proprietary operating system intended to compete against Microsoft Windows; originally OSS, later versions of Unix were made proprietary by Sun Microsystems, Hewlett-Packard and other companies.
Imagine my surprise when I learned that Windose has been around for over 30 years. I stopped reading at this point, as the author(s) lost all credibilty.
Jesse Ventura did get elected as govenor based largely upon a very successful Internet campaign. Gore is a politician through-and-through. He has seen this medium used to great success and only a fool would ignore the Internet in these days. Recall that in one speech Gore reported that the tobacco companies must all be held liable for the great harm they have done to the American public, and in a speech the following week he took great pride in saying that he came from a family of tobacco growers.
For what its worth, I will state that you are correct about this. Corporations have bought into the Windows desktop. They are not about to just replace X thousands of OS's, the costs would be staggering (I am not talking about the cost of the OS, but the cost of retraining users, upgrading each desktop and the (temporary) increase in the number of support calls).
I don't have the APSL in front of me, so ...
1) The APSL states that Apple may, at any time, revoke your license to use the software. So, if you are developer and have put hundreds of hours into making adjustments so that it fits your needs, you are suddenly without recourse, and your million dollar project is now DOA.
2) All changes that you make must be submitted to Apple.
3) and if Apple revokes your rights to the license, they get keep and use your modifications without compensating you.
These are the concerns that most of us have with the APSL.
Any prudent devoleper should read the fine print, and if they decide they do not like the terms, not work on it. Work on software that has terms that you do agree with,
This is very true, and this is what Apple will discover in the very near future. With the correction of these few minor problems, Apple will have a win-win situation... good publicity and some very good programmers improving their products.
My opinions only, your mileage may vary.
From a business point of view... If you follow the links on Lycos for its MP3 Search, you will find information on how to obtain, install and use a ripper to pull tracks directly off of a CD. This information is displayed on a Lycos Webpage, created by a Lycos employee. It is not a link that Lycos happens to be displaying. This certainly implies that Lycos is advocating the illegal use of copyrighted materials. I can certainly see why the music industry (tm) would be upset about this.
No one is saying that allowing small bands to place their own music on the web in MP3 format is bad, or illegal. The music industry is concerned with the illegal use and distribution of material that it owns.
Now, I also think that the music industry would like to see MP3 banned, and closing off access to the small independent bands, thus ensuring their own monoply on an already tightly controlled industry, and a continuing increase in their own bottom lines. However, that is not what the possible lawsuit against Lycos is about.
NOTE: I am not stating that Lycos does or does not advocate music piracy. These are my opinions as expressed by me.
Lets see... they (MS) forks the code and uses its marketing steamroller to flood the masses that the MS Kernal is one-true-kernal...
1. Linux community (most of them) = technical experts, so they can find all the secret nasty stuff in a day or 2.
You forget... MS does NOT market to the technical crowd. MS is interested in desktop/market share. Thats means corporate and Mom-n-Pop. As stated many many times, Mom and Pop don't want to or care to compile their kernal.
2. There are many reporters who read slashdot.org and would be happy to publish any nasty stuff MS did
And the overall effect of this is... ?
The majority of the negative press is in technical journals and on technical websites. Again, Mom and Pop don't read /. (can't imagine why). They watch the nightly news and some sitcoms on the telly.. where MS advertising rules, not /. articles.
Just remember, just because we're paranoid doesn't mean that MS isn't out to get us. Now is a perfect time for MS to cause a code fork. This could be devasting to the movement.
Ok, rather sketchy memory, but I recall reading a number of months ago that MS did a port of IE to (I believe) Solaris, using a third party tool that emulated the Win API. Haven't seen anything on it recently, and I don't even recall exactly where it was I read it (although I am reasonably it was an article here).
So, I see it as entirely reasonable that an MS port of IE is in the medium-near future... scary as that might be.
If I recall correctly, Ed Muth merely stated the standard MS rhetoric about the shortcomings of Linux. ESR replies by immediately resorting to insults and name calling. While I thought ESR's response to the Halloween document were insightful, lately his writting has really degenerated into the infantile. He has, apparently, shed his eloquence and any respect for the guise of infamy. Hardly the spokesperson that the Linux community requires.
these days, a good proportion of the Harley is manufactured in, dare I say it, Japan, Home of the Crotch Rocket.
Dollar for dollar, there are many other bikes that will outperform/outhandle a hog. But, nothing says motorcycle like a hog rolling down the highway.
Hmmm, anyone else out there old enough to remember the Indian? Too bad the company trying to bring them back was unable too.
Many of the same things I have been stating here over the past several months. Perhaps some of it will sink in since it comes from someone with a bit more popularity/recognition than I obviously have.
This attitude is fine, if you wish for Linux to remain a hobbiest Operating System. However, since most people would like to see Linux put a serious dent into the M$ monopoly (including Linus), the answer to that is users. And users will not move to an OS that lacks the applications that they need or are familiar with. The average user doesn't care about the kernel version or which version of glibc he or she needs.
If the user cannot *use* his or her machine in an effecient manner, then they will not change, technical superiority not withstanding. Period.
The media has shined a very large spotlight on our community. Very large companies have voiced support and some have even begun to provide very good products. However, without an increasing user base, how long do you believe this support will continue?
Well, its in the news today, in all likelyhood, due to the DOJ trail. However, Caldera has been trying to get this to trial for a number of years now. Remember, M$ has about 20Billion dollars. That buys quite a lot of lawyers and they (M$) could drag this case out for another 20 years.
The problem is, as stated, the target is merely a student, and most likely doesnot have access to the required monies to defend himself in what passes for the court of law.
Well, actually, it (Linux) started as a hobby. One day Linus popped into comp.os.minux and said "Hey, I've this OS I've been tinkering with and ... ". And as they say, the rest is history.
Of course, even in the early days of Linux(around version .08 or so), Linux was an elitist-snobbish group, so that hasn't really changed in the past 7 or 8 years. But this Linux is freedom bs that people have been spouting was never the intent. A sad after thought perhaps, to take a cool piece of software and turn it into a political adjenda.
Such a waste of time and energy.
Well, I agree with the statement that bashing MS for bashing sake is getting tiresome. However, what most of the respondents have forgotten to take into consideration is the reply of companies like Toshiba.
Yes, MS says we need to go through the OEM. In turn, the OEMs are saying that they have a contract with MS that forces them to preload the software on the machines, and MS refuses to work with them on the return of said software.
So, in fact, this course of attack is pretty much spot on.
Hmm, for some reason I always got the impression that he was some closet-Mac abuser. Now, I haven't read any of his drivel since the mid-late 80's, so I could have a few leaks in the old memory. But as I recall, he was a regular writer for Mac User magazine.
About the only article he wrote that I actually agreed with was his tirade against 5.25 floppies. This was an article in the DEC Professional magazine sometime around 88-89.
Well, if you had bothered to read all of the subsequent posts as the person you refer to had, you would have realised that the discussion had, as per the norm here on /., turned into a MS-bashing and was no longer referring to the original topic.
You are just a weak imitation of your evil twin in that campaign - Jackass
This is too easy... but I will say that the simpleminded, when unable to defend an idea with intelligent conversation resort to such tactics thus undermining any respect that they would have garnered.
I would rather raise awareness of the limitations of Microsoft stuff even as I help people work with it. It's on their desks, they need to do work, and they need to exchange stuff with other people.
This is probably one of the larger points that most people seem to be overlooking. I'm currently contracting with a nationwide bank, that has over 30,000 employees. All evil-MSism's aside, the TCO (total cost of ownership (support, installation, training, NOT merely the cost of the software)) would be staggering. You cannot merely absorb such a cost because of the Microsoft bad, Linux good mentality.
Phred is taking the proper approach. Informing people, showing them that there are better, cheaper alternatives. Contrary to popular belief, people aren't all lemmings. Show them, don't berate them, they will learn and they will become better for it.
I was a VB conference (hey... it pays the bills so I can work on free as in speech not beer software) and saw a demo of VB 4, way back when. Every one was quite impressed with its performance right up until the part where it was discovered that the entire demo, including the Windows startup sequence, was a PowerPoint slide demo.