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MS: Sued, Falsifies Evidence and Contradicts self
SysAdmin writes "I read an AP report in my hometown paper that says the gov't just accused Microsoft of faking a video which shows how performace suffers in Windows98 after the government's IE-scrubber is run. " I try to avoid posting articles like this, but this is pretty significant-some of other sites are talking about perjury charges and such being brought against the lawyers. Additionally, another bit was sent to us by El pointed an article in which MS lawyers were contradicting themselves, as a MS patent claimed that Web browser are seperate from the OS. Lastly, the Canadian province of Alberta has decided to sue Microsoft, amongst others, for Y2k conversion costs-thanks to colonel for that one.
:)
Corporate Suicide... I like that. :-)
Totally agree, people sitting on my left told me Linux is nobody when I took a summer course on C++ with him last June, and he is running Solaris 2.7 and Linux at home ... by X'mas. However, his wife still arguying with me that Linux is better.
Two guys on my right hand side found that out I am using Linux and asked me if I could tell them more and help them install it if they bring the machine into office (of course, I said yes and it happened last evening after work)
The guy that I am working for, keep saiding I am stipud if I think Linux will do any good (this was August 1998). Last week, he called me up and ask me if I call lend him a copy of Linux and told me that he is interesting on doing business on Linux.
i found another write up on the side of the page that was slightly more amusing. man if the government continues to "degrade" the windows product anymore than MS already has the world is in big trouble. like microsoft needs help degrading their products. sheesh.c rosoft__Government_efforts__seriously_de grade__Windows+.shtml
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/028/business/Mi
?
As you know from my earlier note,
Earlier Note
this whole debacle must come to an end NOW.
The nice employees that his father sent over to
collect him were not able to locate him. In fact,
they were verbally assaulted by several very
rude hooligans.
If you do see him, let him know that his father
and I have had enough. Stories like are really
not helping the matter.
it won't be Microsoft cryin. There is plenty of bartering that can go on. For the right price (paid by M$), small things can be overlooked (well, some large ones also) ... billions of dollars do not get disrupted that easily. I am sure some of that money will fall into the right pockets to insure that M$ will get off with a slap on the wrist.
To hell with splitting them up! Force MS to open source its OSes, current and future. The only answer for the abuses of power we've seen from them is to remove the essential service from their control.
...or any other software or hardware company. The government has simply decided that they are going to look into recouping some or all of the $250 million spent to date on Y2K remediation. Provincial Treasurer Stockwell Day feels that like any car company, any recall should be at the expense of the company, not the user. No legal action is being considered at this time. If legal action does come, MS will not be the only company served, the Government of Alberta uses a lot of Solaris, HP-UX, VMS and AS-400 boxes and a lot of applications have been developed by independant developers. If a lawsuit does come, all, or most, of these companies will be served. For more information, please read the following article form the "Edmonton Sun": http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-02-02-0014. html
Everyone knows we don't have any Microsoft in our Company and that we're Linux all the way. But I don't see how Alberta has a chance. Why would they believe that it is OK to sue Microsoft for Y2K fix costs? Are they terminating their own employees who originally suggested Microsoft as a solution? A good read would be the recommendation document that the decision to select Microsoft as the solution was based on!
This is kind of like the US Navy suing Microsoft for towing charges when NT disables a ship!
Dave Bennett
Chief Information Officer
Inland Truck Parts Company
Microsoft's browser integration goes deeper that marketing-speak only. Several standard Windows DLLs (such as CTL3D32.DLL) have mysteriously become part of IE. So I can understand how removing these DLLs and replacing them with backlevel 95 DLLs could screw-up up things more than they already are.
It's simple, really. Since the system wasn't stripped of IE, it ran 7x slower than if they had used the stripper (heh, pun intended).
Removing the shell part of Explorer doesn't hinder any performance. There's the www.win98lite.net page someone else mentioned, and Litestep. I tried Litestep, and although it's a little clunky for the average Windows user (editing the rc file, as opposed to wizards and the like that they expect) everything runs the same. But, of course, they don't want anyone else to know that...
IIS in the kernel
read the first document of valopillil and you'll see that they're considering doing that,make me wonder how a rogue asp page could have the potential to crash the server........
Canadian AC
They probably figured Bill Gates's poll numbers are good (which they are), so the American people obviously want Microsoft to get back to doing the people's business. It's a vast government conspiracy - using Windows is consensual, after all. Besides, Microsoft has helped make the economy great. So of course Bill can get away with perjury
Ditto.
Assuming, of course, that it actually worked.
But yeah. 20000 point mesh CFD in the transonic
regime? Cool.
Now there's something I'd pay to see on video.
What did the MS stooge say then? It was an oversite, mistook the "P1" for "486"?
anyone notice that EOLAS (of the infamous 'plugin' and 'applet' patent) has filed a patent infringement suit against Microsoft?
Well that does it. I've long past being surprised and now I'm hardly even amused when I read these things.
These guys are dimwits. I think the solution to this antitrust business is to leave them be. If the suits at MS are this dumb how much longer can the company last?
And I don't believe it was a mistake. The video showed a slow down. If was a fresh 98 presumably there would have been no slow down and they would have noticed it was the wrong tape. Oh yeah that was the machine cracking RC5 keys.
This video shows M$ will not respect the law.
Bill Gates thinks he is his own law.
The only solution that will change the situation is to GPL *ALL* of M$ code base. Send in the federal martials.
How long before DOJ personel start having plane crashes and slipping in the shower? Or car bombs at the court house?
Want fluid dynamics? Check out Yorick
l
http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue26/obrien.html
ftp://ftp-icf.llnl.gov/pub/Yorick/yorick-ad.htm
One of the demos is fluid flow around
a wing.
-- cary
Win9X is currently better for clueless newbies who don't want to learn. Unless Linux (or some other OS) becomes as easy (read: "vendor-supported" and "dumbed-down"), Windows will always have a place as a low-end OS.
...if all you do is so self-righteously condemn and ridicule Microsoft, while still continuing to use their products!
Yes, some of us have no choice because someone else tells us to. But if you are a Windows gamer or other Windows user who chooses to use it, you cannot complain, ya wimps!
Boycott Microsoft; seek refunds on Microsoft Windows Refund Day (Feb. 15). Do not do it because their products are substandard. Do it because you are fed up with tyrants who think they are above the law.
Boy, you talk about innovation. Of course, you are totally wrong, but let us assume you are right, that Microsoft has actually innovated something in its entire history.
Even assuming that, you still choose to use the products of racketeers that have damaged a once-great industry?
If you do, don't you think that's a bit pathetic?
'I make use of the integrated browser everyday, and if given a choice, would pick that option over the competition'
The problem is, Microsoft is taking that choice from you. You like the integrated browser, what about people who don't?
Finally! After years waiting for it, it happened!
GREAT!!!
(some random Linux fan) (or maybe fanatic)
Hey now, if you taek something from my house in Texas, you might get your head shot off, and it wou,nd't be the first time that a sign like that held up in court. Don't really even need a sign. You can use force in defending your property.... at least in Texas :)
Are your friends who are using Linux, at your urging, nerds or non-technical users? This is a serious question. Please provide a breakdown.
I'd love to see more people use Linux who are not programmers and/or sysadmins, and fear that the growth of Linux so far is too much confined to the nerd community.
Any ray of hope to indicate otherwise would cheer me up some.
Curious
There's a recent precent to support this by the Supreme Court Chief Justice of the United States of America (see Slick Willy trail). Kinda overrules anything lower judges might think.
It is probably worth noting that the point of the statement seems to be that a browser generally is implemented separately from the OS, and that the banking application the patent describes would make use of both the OS and the browser -- it's not making some abstract statement about whether OSes and browsers are necessarily separate by nature.
Maybe it's just me but isn't all this junk just a complete waste of bandwidth? The government and MS are as bad as each other. End of story.
kde integrates web browser functionality with it's filesystem browser.
do i use it? no cause the web browser functionality isnt upto netscape's when it is hell yea will i use it. but when crashs IE (when i use win98, and that's not much) causes win98's gui to die, yea win98 is crashed but it's not really useable (slow)....
The DOJ is now asking the courts to stop illegal, monopolistic, behaviour that has destroyed competition in the industry, and gone against the wishes of M$'s customers [who were held ransom by the M$ monopoly] as they expressed at deposition. Furthermore M$ appear to have tampered with Feltens modifications to break them, trying to alter that evidence. Now they have introduced, under oath, fabricated evidence that the presenting witness admitted [when caught out] was not true. And you think there's a problem with prosecuting these people?
I doubt many people outside of Geekville (ie the software buying public) really care. Even if the govt eventually wins (hope you're not holding your breath!) it will almost certainly do nothing to hurt MS in the long run.
For a lawyer, disbarrment is MUCH more serious than a mere arrest. That's their LIVELYHOOD there.
Bill Clinton (ie Bubba) has been impeached but is not going to get kicked out of office. The key votes in the senate have gone almost straight down party lines and republicans are shy ~ 11 votes they nneed to kick the gimp out. Apparently democrats have deemed that perjury isn't a high crime or misdomeaner even though there are hundreds of people in jail now serving time for just that. I guess this also means microsoft really didn't do anything wrong by lieing. Wait a hundred years, when rape or murder will not be seen as a 'high crime or misdemeanor' for a president who has been elected twice and has a high popularity rating....
As a European citizen, I have to wonder if whatever decision is made about M$
by the judge, also applies to M$ in non-US countries. Otherwise, they may have
to back down in the US but continue their practices abroad. Kind of like the
cigarette industry is doing in Africa.
ReinoutS
uh... Lucent was spun out of AT&T. I think you're talking about the baby bells and at&t.
rich ppl can get away with it.
bill gates is rich.
bill gates can get away with it.
Why the hell is it that absolutely none of this is being covered on CNN? It's plainly obvious why MSNBC would not cover it since they are a part of Microsoft and have no credibility, but I would expect some media coverage outsite of the NY Times Slashdot, and C-Net news.com!
Actually, MSNBC is very objective - and they give full disclosure. Unlike, say, the San Jose Mercury Times, whose parent company is a member of ProComp.
Anyway, that doesn't matter - here's the article you should have been looking for, on the MSNBC website. As I don't have a TV here, I can't tell you if they've covered it on air.
The article regarding this on MSNBC
Microsmurf
You give a sensible description of when you would switch away from MS or get a new (non-MS) job, but it is solely based on the benefit to you. That's fine, but for the life of me I cannot figure out why you even care about whether MS is evil at all. Clearly, your critical opinion about MS carries little weight on the example you set for other people in your computing activities.
There are some people who use GNU/Linux out of more noble considerations than only personal gain.
Yes, you or I would be off for a rendevous with the legendary Pindick. But how do you put a corporation in jail? Even tossing Gates or Ballmer in would not be *MS* in and it is ultimately the institution that is to blame. Despite the name, corporations have no corps (body, the root of corporation). This is why corporations should never be held to have inalienable rights. They are ultimately irresponsible entities.
6 seconds. (K6-2 300, 64 MB RAM). Is that really so bad?
I saw a blurb about it on ABC. They wern't very detailed but it sounded preety bad for MS.. Slashdot beat them to the scoop though.
Give MS 6 months to completely open their API's and warrant such. If they fail, the source goes public domain. Once they warrant, any person who find an undocumented call or functionality gets a million from MS's pocket with an additional 99 million contributed by MS to deficit reduction.
Everyone knows that other companies do this sort of
thing. Any other company in MS' position would doctor
a video in a major anti-trust case in front of a federal
judge. All other companies have such a blatant disregard
for the truth. All other companies have a corporate
culture that encourages this kind of behavior.
Also, the phenomenon that was shown on the tape is
perfectly reproducible. Why just the other day, I was
was using notepad, when all of a sudden, it morphed into
MS Word. I sent a note to Mr. Gates thanking him for such a great software value.
uolinux.dhp.com/
:(
Check it out!
Speed rox!
But it isn't patchable yet.
OK, so the media is melodramatic. Yawn. What is more interesting is seeing MS scramble around like a cornered cockroach. I wonder if they are trying to cover up anything?
First of all, and I know I will get flamed for this, IE4 is a better browser (and I'm a linux user as well as a windows user so I don't have a pro-ms bias). From a coder's standpoint, it is nearly perfect. It renders everything exactly how you tell it to, and is much less picky than netscape. Netscape has a HORRIBLE CSS implementation, netscape decides for itself what size your frames will be, and it is just a general nuisance.
Second, after having used windows 98 pretty much since a few weeks after its release, I can report that I have found no evidence that there is anything that prevents me from using Netscape. I use netscape to test my web sites for cross browser compatabilties probably every day for hours at a time and I have had no problems. I personally can't see how everyone is accusing microsoft of trying to "force" their browser on them. They aren't, and also, quite frankly it's a better product anyway.
-Anonymous Coward
Americans lie from the president down.
I take it you failed logic at school
Perjury is a crime of which Bill Clinton is guilty. This does not mean he has to be convicted of it or suffer any negative consequences. Nor does it mean the law is weakened if he does not. The US, as a British Common Law country, recognizes *jury nullification* (though the government tries to not let you know this). Any jury, including in this case the Senate, has a legal right and moral obligation to acquit when the circumstances would make conviction unjust. The government had no business probing into Clinton's sex life (we need some reform of sexual harassment laws to extend respect for privacy here). If the government probes into your sex life, I will defend your right and obligation to perjure yourself without holding perjury laws in general to be weakened by this. The main purpose of juries is to exercise judgement in particular cases beyond the generality that is the nature of law.
Time to return to reality. What M$ does is unethical, malicious, malevolent, shameless and just wrong.
However it is not evil, a company that chooses to maximise its profits should not be considered evil. Selling shoddy products at exorbitant prices is not an evil act.
Comparing M$ behaviour to slavery is an insult to all descendants of Slaves. Slavery was an evil trade, the Nazi party was evil, the Khmer Rouge was/is evil. These people truly exploited others, in many cases relieving others of their lives.
M$ maybe a lot of things but it is not evil, so please be careful with your use of hyperbole.
For the record, I forget exactly what I used for my impromptu test, but they included:
Netscape
Internet Explorer
Opera
Excel
Winamp (playing an MP3 at the time)
Adobe Acrobat
and a couple of others.
It did occur to me that 10 Notepads wouldn't be a very challenging test.
Corrupt? Abuse of power? Whatever! MS is doing well in the business arena right now because they make products that people buy. If you don't like Windows, you can always go out and buy OS/2 or get linux. THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING YOU FROM DOING THIS. PEOPLE STILL BUY MS PRODUCTS. I'll admit that in my opinion, windows blows goats as an OS. But IE is an excellent browser, compared to the other ones available. MS just makes stuff that alot of people buy, and when companies with stuff that people DON'T want to buy go out of business, they say "Waaah, no fair!!" and point their whiney finger at MS. It's like the Atlanta Falcons suing the Broncos and saying, "It's not fair that they won; they practice more and have John Elway! Boo-Hoo!" Well, of course! Granted, Bill Gates is a jerk. But he is also a shrewd and cautious businessman and THAT is how he worked MS to the top. I also restate that NOTHING prevents ANYONE from using Netscape. IE4 is provided in windows simply as a convinience, and it IS convenient to not ever have to make a 20MB download for Netscape, and to be able to start browsing from any explorer window. Where is the law that says they can't put useful features in their operating system? Sheesh! This whole load of Antitrust crap is just a bunch of bad businessmen who are sore losers. And no, I'm not biased... I'm just stating my opinion, and I HATE sore losers.
-Anonymous Coward
...is a Linux Install floppy.
Yes, it could be that you're not biased. This leaves three options: (1) MS is totally innocent; (2) you are blind; (3) or you simply do not care about whether criminals should be punished just as long as it does not affect you.
There's plenty of ammunition to tear down option (1), but why would all of these MS witnesses at the trial squirm around and be so evasive if MS were totally innocent?
Anyway, you should try to clarify yourself--so far it has not made much sense.
The precedent for this was a case where workers were exposed to toxic chemicals. The president(?) was convicted of criminal negligence, I think, and sentenced to jail time.
Bwahahahaha !!!!!!!!!
M$ needs a serious clue.
Upgrades and Service Packs work in the marketplace (it helps when you have a monopoly or two).
But they DON'T work in court.
DOOHHH !!!!
That was a halfway decent personal attack. Now can you attack the point that he was making?
Before this whole trial mess blew up, the ONLY thing you could possibly get MS on was underhanded business tactics. Perjury has been a very real possibility since the trial started. (We can't remove the browser? Yeah, RIGHT!!!)
Producty tying is a VERY questionable claim. OS vendors have always included extraneous pieces of software with the OS. Symantec isn't crying because of Windows's defrag tool. Nobody's suing Apple because they give away Disk First Aid. I haven't noticed any complaints about Sun giving fsck away lately. Maybe we should try to get Microsoft to start charging for Word Pad and Telnet, too.
And PLEASE don't start moaning that MS won't let you remove Internet Explorer from Lose98. Anybody remember the days of Windows 3.1? Well, they're back. Explorer is just as easy to remove as your average software package that got installed on that piece of junk. Check out www.win98lite.net if you don't believe me. MS just took away the pretty little uninstaller and spewed previously unmatched volumes of FUD. It's their software, its their perogative.
You don't have to like them, I discover something new not to like about them on a fairly regular basis. But you could at least be objective about it.
OK, maybe that's true. And your implication is that MS is not unique in this regard. I agree.
However, I think the degree to which they employ this is incredible and disgusting. Sadly, though it seems they be found guilty and punished a little bit, I'm afraid that it will definitely be a day late and a dollar short.
The optimist in me says that there will continue to be enough righteous indignation out there to oppose them, and one good effect of the trial has been to continue feeding that indignation.
Maybe you still feel that business is business and everything is OK. We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I just don't want that cynicism.
"Otherwise how would their products make it..." Just because you and I think Windows blows goats doesn't mean EVERYONE does. The majority of PC users use windows and like it just fine. That's why MS is doing so well.
-Anonymous Coward
...you're a very popular politician.
And the way to get popular is to lie like a rug. If anything good happens. grab the credit for it. if you do anything bad, either cover it up or evade the blame.
Lying is perfectly acceptable to Americans, so long as you're good at it. What we can't stomach is an inept liar. That's why we hate Richard Nixon and Newt Gingrich.
I'm not exactly in favor of the DOJ in this case (lesser of two evils...), but boy, how I sure would like to have a copy of that IE-scrubber! (for making the 98 machines I have to deal with that much more bearable. ; )
-Josh
It's over. That's it, kids, it's time to go home. The show's over.
Make no bones about it. If anyone's still taking bets on the outcome of the trial, bet all your money on Janet Reno. Microsoft is finished. This is a first class quack-up. Judges DON'T like anyone coming in and putting on a dog-and-pony show like that.
Aside from the issue of the quack-up itself, I have some trouble figuring out how removing Internet Explorer from Windoze can possibly make it seven times slower than it already is. How can removing about a dozen megabytes of bloat suddenly make the rest of the system run slower?
It just doesn't add up. Yes, you can no longer punch up the Net. Correct, that's what's supposed to happen, But then how does removing web access can suddenly translate into slower performance when accessing disk files, or running programs?
The only possible explanation I can imagine is this: if the MSIE code bloat introduces some disk caching or multitasking logic that is not part of the system otherwise. Other than that, I see no way this can possibly be.
But then, we're back to square one. Multi-tasking and generic disk caching is not something that a web browser is supposed to do, so we're back to the bundling issue again.
Check out the quote from cnn.com:
... the company is checking to see whether there was a "minor editing problem" with the video.
A Microsoft spokesman said
Ummm.... "minor editing problem"???
YOU SHOWED THE WRONG BLEEPING SCREEN!!!
Hoo-boy... This is big, very very big. Lawyers get disbarred for pulling stunts like that.
Bill Gates stepped down as president months ago, and passed it on to Ballmer (Microsoft employee #3, if I recall)
Bill Gates is still solidly and actively the Chief Executive Officer, but by passing on the role of president he is less involved with day-to-day operations of the behemoth.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
On my laptop (I have two linux boxes in my 8'x12' room as well. It's nice to be able to play some games as well as hack in emacs at the same time, you know?)
Anyway, the only thing it broke so far was infrared file transfer. But at least I don't have IE on my machine anymore!
- A.P.
--
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I did most of my growing up there (Medicine Hat).
BTW, MicroSoft -> MS -> Multiple Sclerocis (sp). Windows is one heavily scarred beast.
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
Yes, but IIRC it only applies at night. Strange state...
There was a large uproar back in the eighties over this law (which was enacted last century) when a man killed someone who was trying to repossess his pickup. When he tried to turn himself in he found out that since it was dark when it happened, it wasn't illegal. He later committed suicide.
The Texas legislature reviewed the law after this incident and decided to leave it in force.
Whoops! Make that "youth in the above post".
...then goes about doing things the old way because the old shell code is still in there somewhere.
DCMonkey
"Last week, U.S. District Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson, who is presiding over the antitrust trial in Washington, ordered Microsoft to turn over an internal spreadsheet to government lawyers. The spreadsheet appears to show that Microsoft knows which browser files are linked with Windows and which files are unique to Internet Explorer."
Well I would hope they would know which are which. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't know!
VENI! VIDI! VICI!
What's good for one Bill's good for another, eh?
...not trying to make a point.
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
Although I don't know the specifics of Canadian law, it's possible that their laws could invalidate this clause in the EULA.
LK
Posted by stodge:
Well thats fair enough (!!), except when I go home and try to load Staroffice on my linux box, and realise that it takes 20 times longer to load (no I havent timed it!) than MS Word does on my Win95 PC at work. Then I'm pissed off and jealous.
There's a tradeoff between memory and performance in development, and I guess in Linux there's currently a trade off between stability and decent Desktop type apps.
Posted by OGL:
This is exactly how they sold Windows as well...according to "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates", the original OLE demo was completely rigged. They simply cut and pasted one applications menus onto a picture of another's. According to the book, the shareholders were somewhat dissapointed that the final product hadn't seemed to make any progress from the pre-release demo, when in fact the entire technology had been written from scratch in the interim!
As for the Microsoft trial, I think that Windows2000 may be Microsoft's death knell, simply because they have too many people working on it and too much code obsufication for anyone to understand it. Of course, we have to be careful that the same thing doesn't happen to us.
-W.W.
Posted by Mephie:
Wow, everyday my job looks bleaker and less stable (I'm in support). Anyone have need of a POV artist??
--Mephie
Posted by Mephie:
BAHAHAHHAHAHAHH!!!
It will in Texas... as long as the body and the head fall inside your home.
--Mephie
Posted by OGL:
Actually, anyone developing Windows can see any part of its source code, but you're missing the point. If code is bloated enough so that no human being can understand it, then we're in trouble no matter how open it is, because it becomes impossible to maintain. This is a problem that has plagued developers since the beginning of time, and adding more developers to a project usually doesn't help. All I'm saying is that we (meaning Linux developers) must be careful not to make MS's mistake of bloating our code stupidly with miserable API's, document sharing capabilities, etc. etc.
-W.W.
Posted by Mephie:
>>>>Poles don't mean a thing. You can make them say anything you want.
Silly racist. =)
--Mephie
Ummm
Back to the point, MS lied about an extremely relevant exhibit. They said this exhibit was central to their case. In a criminal court of law, not a civil deposition, not even in a grand jury inquiry.
What MS really showed, assuming they really did "mistakenly" videotape just an average, run-of-the-mill Windows 98 box, is that Windows 98 just plain runs like a dog on some systems, and that any effect splitting IE from the OS might have is lost in that noise. As an aside, even if their exhibit hadn't been complete hogwash, showing that a quick hack to separate the two doesn't run as fast as the "production system" doesn't exactly prove much besides the obvious.
the chance of making all the APIs freely useable is another matter though
No matter what API's Microsoft publishes, they'll never be freely usable!
Posted by tdibble:
... Personally, I think he was just setting the stage for the big MS announcement that MS Office is an integral part of the OS as well ...
The MSBC story mentions it, interestingly enough
Someone should clue in these lawyers to how computers work.
If I pile many functions including web browsing functions into the same binary.. that doesn't mean that I can't go in and rewrite it to remove that functionality.
Software does whatever the programmers code it to do.
Get a clue.. someone!
Th' Mickey$oft feebs have it bass-ackerds. ADDING Intercourse Exploiter makes Winders 7 times slower. I've seen several IE crashes goof up the Active Desktop too. Sic 'em Janet!
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Those people will do anything:
"Justice Department lawyer David Boies stopped the video demonstration in midframe to show a subtle inconsistency: a software title bar that suddenly changes in the middle of the test. The video had been played in court Monday."
Now, if you or I did something like this with evidence in a friggin trial, your or my ass would be hauled off to the bighouse real fast. I sure hope the gov't puts the blocks to these corporate pirates. I don't mind that ms makes crappy software that I have to deal with on a daily basis; I don't mind that bgatus of borg is a over-ripe over-rich phoney; I really don't mind the fact that bgatusdeborg has effectively dumbed-down a generation and a half regarding computing power and application. What I do mind is that ms and bgdeborg has the audacity to publicly flaunt such an arrogant and condescending attitude, AND expect to get away with this kind of behavior.
Huh, deportation might be a good judicial recommendation in this case.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
He's still chairman though I believe. Either way it wouldn't matter. As evidenced by the many emails the government has presented, the sickness runs much deeper than Gates and Ballmer's positions. MS is a hydra. Kill one head and another will rise to take it's place.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Well, you don't see anything wrong with Microsoft shoving a lousy product down people's throats, even if they are dumb enough to accept it? So basically, we should just give up any hope that these people will ever acquire a clue, and just allow them to be swindled out of obscene amounts of money, and allow Microsoft to monopolize whatever markets it chooses? Brilliant. Just brilliant.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
And you just know the Jerry Pournelle's of the world are going to start triping all over themselves claiming that Microsoft is actually good for consumers and the DOJ should just leave them alone......
Even the Nixon crowd wasn't *THAT* stupid....
Hmmm....shouldn't mircosoft be saving their money for their legal fees instand of paying people like you to post this kind of nonsense? They certainly are going to need it......
Purgery or not, all my friends are using Win.
Microsoft used to demo Windows 95 (before it came out) on machines that they claimed were 486/33s. At one user group I know of, the crowd restrained the Microsoft stooge while they took the top off the machine, and it was a Pentium 133.
The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
The patent number for the Microsoft patent that destroys their anti-trust case: 5,794,230
The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
I think Ballmer and Gates would be busy stamping out license plates. (should).
In any case, if you split MS into two separate units (apps and OS), where the f_ck do you draw the line?
Who gets Notepad.exe - the OS unit or the Apps unit?
Who gets Explorer.exe, the OS unit or the Apps unit?
And how the heck are you supposed to define that in a long-term-enforceable legal document so that it will cover any possible future new product ideas?
The idea is fundamentally whacked.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
"ALL its APIs for all versions of Windows (inc W2K)
publicly available and free to use for any purpose" - -
this would be impossible to enforce. Who would be able to go through MS' source trees and make sure that it's all "available", and properly documented?
Screw that shit. Just put them all in jail for life, from Bill Gates to the Janitors.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
the only thing I'm worried about is if it screws up future software updates, etc.
You know, installers that look for certain dll versions, etc. tho the OS runs fine now, it could be trouble down the road. Good thing I don't rely on 98.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Their trial home page is here
Personally, I think it's better to keep this sort of thing off Slashdot, on the day-to-day side. I'd prefer to see more technical stuff.
As a "wouldn't that be interesting" endnote, I'd say it's pretty likely that a) the DoJ will win (nahh!) and b) that they will ask for the judge to order MS to make public all their APIs. (the chance of making all the APIs freely useable is another matter though). Nice for Wine...
It's hard to say what would happen. Much would depend on the implimentation.
Personally, I'd say that if MS was forced to make ALL its APIs for all versions of Windows (inc W2K) publicly available and free to use for any purpose would be the best thing to go for from the DoJ's point of view. It's very hard to argue against it, and would also be very effective in giving MS some competition. Basically, anyone could then do a complete 'Wine' and make a system where you can run Windows apps without Windows.
The other thing to do would be to prevent all the software tying that makes it so hard for OEMs to build PCs without Windows pre-installed. MS also ties lots of its software together in certain ways, which rather forces people to run 'pure MS'.
I'm not saying that splitting MS could have it's uses, but at the moment, I would recommend the DoJ to do the above. When, one way or another, the case gets to the Supreme Court, then go for splitting.
It'll be another 1-3 months before the trial ends, and the judge'll probably take 1-2 months making a descision. So I guess we'll see something by mid-year. (about the same time the K7 comes out)
A copy of the article which was up on zdnet this morning went into detail about another interesting issue: apparently Allchin, who has been using the term "virgin system" throughout his testimony, admitted he uses it to refer not only to systems which only have Windows 98 installed, but also to systems which have MS Office installed and to systems which have had registry entries tweaked by hand before being used for tests.
However, that version of the story was taken off of zdnet, and it doesn't appear to be anywhere else currently for some reason.
...must be really chummy. That CNN article was so incredibly biased, I'm amazed that it wasn't labeled "editorial".
The faux pas was glossed, Boies was slurred, while Allchin's testimony was reported as fact. They didn't mention that Allchin conceded the government's points about the video being fake. And, they trumpeted some more "evidence" that everyone in the world is just jumpin' for joy that IE is integrated with Windows 98.
Egads people, microsoft is bad and all that, but here's a clue: microsoft, nor any other company, is responsible for the y2k thing? Not legally, anyways... most software licenses state that this product is used AT YOUR OWN RISK.
I can't wait for all these licenses to pop up the minute the law suits start, and watch everyone get a clue. And if all this doesn't come to pass, it just shows that most people in this world are in need of a swift kick in the head...
Lock-tight on this video doctoring issue. We're talking major libel one way, and major perjury the other way. I think this may be a milestone on this case.
What does this crowd think about Ellison's idea of splitting MS into two, identical companies, and give one to Ballmer and one to Gates. I think that actually has a shot of working.
--
The real Paul Vallee is slashdot userid 2192, and, what do you mean it's not cool to point out your low userid?
I guess.
That's the whole point of our system of checks and balances, to function in the presence of imperfect people.
he's also got a "send me feedback" section
http://www.vinod.com/feedback.htm
Wonder what the slashdot effect might have...?
Ballmer is less paranoid, less obnoxious and more honest than Emperor Billpitine, right?
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
Big corporations always get away with murder.
Remember in the late '70's when Gulf Oil defrauded the government out of like, 60 million dollars?
The government settled with them for the return of $30 million of it.
Think the average citizen could return half of what he stole and thus avoid jail time?
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
I defy you to find *any* MS product released since 3Q 97 that does not require IE4.
:) (Not actually written by MS)
Age of Empires does not count
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo."
Right. Gates made Ballmer President. Gates remains CEO. Glad you could refresh my memory. :-)
Glad that I was not under oath
If someone brakes into my home i have the right to shoot him. If someone tryes to car jack my car i have the right to shoot him (though i'll bet i'll get charged with having a gun in a car..but thats a small price to pay :) ). In fact i will bet you are better off shooting him dead. That way they cant try suing you. :)
I have to return some videotapes...
havnt you seen the MSNBC and MS ads on CNN?
I have to return some videotapes...
'Twould be nice.... too bad MS doesn't have $300 trillion. It could probably manage $1000 for everyone....
ElpDragon.
It's in the comparative time it takes to load Netscape, of course! Silly us! (Just ignore the fact that Netscape can actually be taken out of memory....)
ElpDragon.
I think the best idea would be to go ahead and break up the company into various units (Office group, WinOS group) and make it illegal to let key people (Ballmer, Gates, et al) to even work in the computer business again.
That way the various companies would not be still loyal (behind the back of the DoJ) to Bill. He wouldn't be allowed near them.
Gordon
Why the hell is it that absolutely none of this is being covered on CNN? It's plainly obvious why MSNBC would not cover it since they are a part of Microsoft and have no credibility, but I would expect some media coverage outsite of the NY Times Slashdot, and C-Net news.com!
:-D
Would it have ANYTHING to do with the ramped-up advertising campaign Microsoft is pushing? These ads don't even promote a product - just that fake feely-good kiss-the-black-baby for the TV bullshit we expect from Congressional campaigns. They are literally dumping so much money on the media that the media resist covering one of the biggest antitrust trials of the decade if not the century.
Microsoft has so many penetration points in all these industries.. I really wonder what will happen to the US and/or world enconomy once Microsoft is inevitably slam-dunked (either by US DOJ or by Linux). Never mind the USDOJ trial there is the estimated $600 billion Y2K expense the world faces... a "sizable" share of which can be laid RIGHT at the feet of Microsoft, who at first told us the only way to be Y2k compliant was to get NT5/NT2000... but now that NT2000 will be released AFTER Y2K because it's still too buggy... they tell us we need NT4 Service Pack 4. Ugh.
The DOJ trial is just daily amusement. The real killer will either be when more games ship for Linux (YES!), or these Fortune 500 companies band together and hand Microsoft the portion of their Y2K expenses for which Microsoft is responsible for.
... I'm goin' for a Guiness!
Why not split it up nice and fine?
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
There are certain rights and responsibilities you can't waive. For instance, while you can post a sign outside your house saying that anyone or anything who steals anything from your property will have his head shot off, that kind of license would never hold up in court.
--
Kyle R. Rose, MIT LCS
[ home ]
Damnit! I was hoping Linux would get the credit for Microsoft's downfall, since Linux was starting to make waves before the Microsoft trial.
Ah well.
Take that, Microsoft, you collection of liars, theives, and no-gooders!
Hahahahahahaha!!!
-- We live in a world where lemonade is artificial and soap has real lemon.
Personally, I am outraged by Microsofts pathetic behavour. They have been breaking the law for so long, they somehow think they are immune to the laws of the United States. Lying, stealing, cheating, back stabbing have all become standard operating procedure for MS. Any CEO that would consider doing business with MS after all these facts have become public should be fired by their board of directors for lack of moral character. In the end, I think the public at large is finally getting a first hand look at the Lying, cheating arrogant shitheads Microsoft really is. You reap what you sow.
You have been assimilated.
...to rush a product to market without adequately testing it first?
LOL
Christopher B. Wright
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
Further evidence of Microsoft's legendary and endemic incompetence. They can't even fake evidence without screwing it up.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
he knows the good side of the force... yet he resists...
to see the video!
The EULA explicitly states that uSoft will not be liable for any damages arising from the use of the product, including the failure to perform according to the product's own documentation.
www.BillWatch.net is also quite good. It's a somewhat /.-ish site. It covers other MS trials and issues as well.
Is this a class action lawsoot? if so, how much green can I get back?
his would be impossible to enforce. Who would be able to go through MS' source trees and make sure that it's all "available", and properly documented?
:-)
Simple: someone at the goverment gets the w2k source, types "make" (or whatever) and if the binary is not identical byte by byte with the commercially boxed version, we cut one of BG's finger, and try again.
Szo
Red Leader Standing By!
"M$, you go to hell! You go to hell and you die!"
USA-Democracy is 270 million YESes and NOes a day, not one every four years.
Well, I haven't found postgreSQL utterly stabile - at least 6.3 or some used to explode (more than leak or flood) on untrivial queries, requiring a kill. Regretted not choosing mySQL, though I used to be pretty unhappy with the severe lacks in its SQL implementation. Proprietaries might make it better so far... Contrary beliefs anyone?
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
While the corporation is "in jail", all monies which would have have come into the corporation are paid directly to the government (to pay off national debt etc). If the corporation cannot survive with no income during its "incarceration", then it will have to declare bankruptcy and go out of business.
Such penalties might provide some disincentive for corporations to break the law.
"It should be understood by those skilled in the art that a Web browser, such as Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer, ... is separate from the operating system."
They just proved the DOJ's case, right there. If the doctored video doesn't kill their case, this will.
0 1 - just my two bits
That's interesting...could you name a few of them?
Exspecially for prejury to avoid personal embarressment, instead of covering up a crime, in a civil case?
Oh, and with it not related to the case in the first place, too.
You can argue that all prejury is a 'high crime or misdemeanor' if you want, but there are very, very, very few people for are in jail just for that, without having commited another crime.
Go on. I dare you to name one. I bet, if you can find any cases, they will have been a convenient way to lock a 'troublemaker'.
This level of purjury is almost never prosecuted, period. People who claim there are lots of people serving time for it are either uninformed or liars.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Jesus christ you are an idiot! Linux kernel size for normal setups is 508KB. it can be larger with mods and whatnot but no much more. And if you install all the GNU/Linux utils then it will be bigger for good reason... its a fucking UNIX! Now 508 KB is not more than a 100 Meg install. The entire tree on my system is 50 MB.
Alan Cox a chokepoint? AC is NOT and idiot. Perhaps you would have allowed nice small efficient fixes.... yep its easy to read in an array of numbers in one line.... but then again there's the buffer overflow! In your mind it must be better to fix one bug and introduce another that is an order of magnitude worse! Read the source and don't be a fucking dolt!
Suddenly, the hairy finger of a familiar monkey tapped me on the shoulder. It was time.--G. T.
is evil
If I'm running IE on my mac, does that make me running a "core component" of Windows in MacOS? My computer must be schizophrenic running 2 os's like that.
Weird that they would give peices of their OS away free to non-Windows platforms. Hmmm
W
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I'm wondering what kind of new features M$ will include in NT 2000.
I'm guessing they'll add an especially cool new feature for fluid dynamics. This new feature can have up to 200,000 element mesh and display accurate fluid flow dynamics with flow velocities between Mach 0.1-1.5. It will also have very good display features that will benefit from being part of the OS.
That will put Linux to shame. Imagine how cool your OS would be with that feature!
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
"We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
I was a VB conference (hey... it pays the bills so I can work on free as in speech not beer software) and saw a demo of VB 4, way back when. Every one was quite impressed with its performance right up until the part where it was discovered that the entire demo, including the Windows startup sequence, was a PowerPoint slide demo.
Boies charged - and Allchin acknowledged - the change indicated that the test actually was completed using a version of Windows unaffected by the government's modifications.
They admit it. What more evidence do they need. They claim it was a mistake, not perjury. Don't understand that, though. "Yeah, we made a doctored version of the test, but we intended to use the real version".
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Sounds crazy? Didn't they add a module that checked if DRDOS was in use and issue a "warning".
But the truth is that it is just slow. From another article:
In a climax worthy of Perry Mason, Boies then asked: "So, this video you brought in here and vouched for, it's just wrong. [Degradation is] not due to the Felton program, it's just how Windows 98 works?"
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
actually you don't need a sign, as long as the person is inside your house when you fire, and remains in your house after he dies, it's all nice and legal. IIRC if he's in your house when you fire but lands outside you can be tried for murder. Only in the US.
-matt
No other product makes no guaranty about the quality of the product. When you buy a car, you are assured that it will work correctly for X number of years or else the company will fix it for you. Software companies guaranty that the media is free from defects. Something breaks, they spend $3 to fix it. Not to mention the fact that most EULAs grant the software company the right to revoke your license at any time, without cause, and without refunding your money. Now can you imagine buying a car if the car company could, at anytime, without cause or refund, take back your car? I don't get it now, I never will get it.
-matt
There are certain things you don't make mistakes about. If a doctor makes a mistake, he is sued for malpractice. If microsoft makes a mistake, they should be sued for perjury. "Oops, when I said I didn't kill him it was a mistake. I meant to say that I did, so you see, I didn't perjur myself." It's a crappy defense at best.
-matt
That's why I want M$ to be forced to open up ALL of its APIs, present, past, and future. Wine has done a wonderful job w/ half of the APIs hidden away, and it's only 2megs. Can you imagine what would happen if they had access to all of microsoft's silly APIs. Or the DOJ could completely disband m$. Put the whole crap load in jail and let the world be happy.
-matt
What is achieved by installing 98 in the first place, right?
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
Perhaps a better example would be this:
A sign outside of your house stating that anyone
entering the house would be shot when spotted. That kind of sign/agreement will not held out in court.
Would M$ ever lie???
Gee that is a 'big' suprise.. I have friends who tell me about 98 performance over 95.. its slower they say...
It amazes me thou. A hacker goes to jail, and if his crime was serious enough then he may not be able to use a computer for a while. A perjuror goes to jail or they impeach him from office.
Maybe Bill should be forced to step down from M$ as CEO. They are thinking of making a president step out of office if he is found guilty. Maybe this CEO should too?
I wonder if M$ was run by someone who wasn't such a b-----d if it would be any better?
The company has such power to do good things, now if they only made software that didn't crash your system and works well with other non M$ software.
Only 'flamers' flame!
Several weeks ago, the lunatic Judge Bork proposed splitting mSoft into 3 identicle companies.
...Nothing interesting here. Just move along...
It also suffers when you turn the computer on.
Can we sue MS for not allowing pepole to use it?
Anyway,
It is well known that IE is a resource killer,
and i cant imagine a machine running SLOWER because it doesnt use it.
If we're going to use purgery as a case, we might as well quote:
"Shutting down Microsoft ends innovation" (real quote from their site)
"Windows 98 gives astounding results and improved speed and stability" - Compared to what? Windows 95?
"MSIE is bundled, ehm integrated because users like to use it" - dont you mean forced?
"Windows NT offers stability and speed in a low price"
In fact, the minute Bill and his spin-doctors open their mouth we can sue for purgery.
---
I'm going to live forever, or die in the attempt.
It also suffers when you turn the computer on.
Can we sue MS for not allowing pepole to use it?
Anyway,
It is well known that IE is a resource killer,
and i cant imagine a machine running SLOWER because it doesnt use it.
If we're going to use purgery as a case, we might as well quote:
"Shutting down Microsoft ends innovation" (real quote from their site)
"Windows 98 gives astounding results and improved speed and stability"
"MSIE is bundled, ehm, integrated because users like to use it"
In fact, the minute Bill and his spin-doctors open their mouth we can sue for purgery.
---
I'm going to live forever, or die in the attempt.
Yeah, you're right,
But (I think) some of my quote have been used in court by the MS lawyers.
(Some for "free advertisement" in media covered court)
Is there a class-action suit for false advertising?
And as for an injury,
Yes I did.
I believed them, and used Windows (Better than ever) as many people did.
I have suffered from it's instability,
and it corrupted/deleted some of my important files and documents.
---
I'm going to live forever, or die in the attempt.
Too true. The courts have always frowned on "contracts"
which have not actually been negotiated between the two parties involved.
It's been suggested that before you first boot Windows,
you take a pen and modify the agreement, then get it notarized.
That should have as good a chance of standing up in courts as the original EULA.
Of course, even better is to install any other OS and return Windows.
Sean at Dell said that the refund would be $199.
Like we didn't already know this.
--CAE
Are we to seriously believe that the removal of IE under Windoze 98 is going to slow Windoze 98 down? Wow, amazingly IE must be some super turbo app that is essential to the workings of an already slow OS. Kinda like when a junkie inhales some crack rock and his heart starts beating really, really fast; ready to explode, teetering on the edge of life and death. I guess this is what IE does for Windoze. And tell Gates to get a haircut and stop using that flowbee SH*T!
Ellison has been touting that idea for several months now, and I've always thought it a highly intriguing notion. Basically it gives all the computer sellers better leverage for renegotiating the operating system contracts in the near term -- a nice outcome.
The problem in my mind is that the company that gets the "Microsoft" name may end up with an advantage due to brand-name recognition. Maybe the solution is to let one company get Bill, and the other get the name.
I've been saying that since this whole thing began. Micro$loth is just beginning to control the media and dictate what we see and when we see it. Big Brother is not a government; it's Mister Bill's picture that will hang everywhere.
Of course, this makes the Minute of Hate much easier.
I agree with you - MSIE is very nice. It's fast, about as stable as netscape, and it formats stuff nicely. I also like the way you can easily drag your bookmarks around (click and hold on the one you want on the menu, then just drag it where you want - no messing around with Netscape bookmarks).
:), it doesn't really affect me.
It IS annoying that when IE crashes, it takes down the rest of explorer, but since I use LiteStep (cool WM, I mean shell
The autocompleting is nice, too... although it usually has to spin up my smaller hard drive which I mainly use for backup, which is a bit annoying...
MS isn't all bad. They do have some nice things, but it's really annoying when I have to trick Win98 into installing the proper driver for my modem - it's internal, but I have to install the external driver or it crashes hard...
Friends don't let friends run Windows... ;-)
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Not evil, just ammoral. They're not screwing their customers because they enjoy screwing them, they're just acting in their own short-term self interest, and don't care if their customers get screwed as a side effect. There is a big difference between that and acting deliberately malicious.
Microsoft is not the enemy. Microsoft is the dinosaur with one foot in the tar pit, thrashing around trying to figure out out to extricate itself...
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
No, abusing people for the sake of abusing people is evil. Doing things for personal gain is human nature (like it or not).
No, most folks don't need a computer, and nobody is being forced to use Windows, so the analogy sucks. Slavery was not a choice. Windows is a choice, although an admittedly limited choice that does not server consumers best interests. Microsoft has never sent anyone to my home to physically carry me away and chain me to a Windows desktop. I choose to run Windows because my current job (which I've freely chosen) requires it at work, and because several pieces of software I enjoy running at home requires it.
Granted, I'd rather not give any money at all to M$. As soon as all the software I own runs well under Linux (WINE, anyone?) I'd be more than happy to run only Linux at home. As soon as somebody offers me a job paying as much or more money to work only with Linux, I'll jump at the chance. In the meantime, I've choosen to deal with the frustration and inconvenience of running Windows. Yes, it does crash all the time on me, especially Windows 98.
Just because you love Linux, doesn't mean you have to hate M$... I prefer rational evaluations to emotional ones. Unfortunately, there are still some problems for which Windows is a better solution -- although that set of problems is shrinking rapidly.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
You wanna post a link to that so the rest of us can stop using Windoze too? (Actually, I'm still waiting for the Unreal port to be finished...)
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
"Microsoft has steadfastly denied charges that it illegally bundled its Internet browser into newer versions of Windows to trounce Netscape. It maintains that it can't be guilty of ''tying'' those products because its browser is a component of Windows, not a separate software program. "
I find it funny and frustrating at the same time, that this is the whole issue at hand, bundling the browser with the os. I happen to like the integrated browser functionality. I happened to like it when ie was not part of the os... the idea is a great one. I make use of the integrated browser everyday, and if given a choice, would pick that option over the competition. I understand that M$ has it's problems, but I don't think innovation is one of them. When everyone else can offer the functionality and features I use then I will consider changing. but in the mean time I find our government stupid for suing a company for giving the masses what they want.
-k-