One more reason why I use Open Office. I still find it humorous that people still stick to MS products after having to pay horrendous amounts of money and then to get treated like this with your own data. I have copies of old documents for archival purposes. I'd be angry if I knew I could not longer access those documents.
Using that argument, for 99% of what people do, there is an open source product that does what most people need.
As far as MS is concerned, user lock-in is the main reason most general users are still using MS. Most users surf, chat, organize pictures and music. If it weren't for MS specific codecs and protocols, the Open Source alternatives work as well as or better than what MS has to offer.
Microsoft has been successful only in its ability to remove competition and control protocols. What real innovation has MS brought to the table? When you look at where they concentrate their efforts, it's in threatening competitors with IP lawsuites, buying out competitors and trying to own/control protocols to make sure noone else can play.
Any successful computer-related product anywhere threatens MS.
Has anybody noticed that the quality of Open SuSE has gone seriously downhill since the announcement? The fonts are just plain ugly and the usability has gotten significantly worse. I spent some time making some basic changes to make it usuable and came to the conclusion that someone must have been really trying to make it that ugly and user-unfriendly. Could it be that Novell has an incentive to remove itself as a competitor?
I stand corrected. You are right, that most people would not install it unless they had someone who prodded them to do it or they had heard somewhere about it and figured it would solve some problem or be better in some way. My brother is such a person. My mother, on the other hand, would not.
I think the point was whether it was "effective". Your point was that it takes a geek to install it and, therefore, it wouldn't qualify as effective.
I recently had a non-technical guy at our office install Ubuntu on several machines. Some were new, some where Windows boxes that were put out to pasture. I was on the phone on the first installation (I work and support the installation remotely), but he did the rest on his own and he's not technical. He didn't even know it was an OS. That's how simple it's become.
Try installing Ubuntu 7.10. It is easier to install than installing most drivers for hardware under Windows. It will install and correctly recognize all common hardware just by accepting the defaults.
Well, we use Symantec on two email machines we have. Even though the updates are current, these machines are constantly compromised. I understand that there is no such thing as perfect security, but the use of Windows and AV software doesn't seem to buy much except, perhaps, some time.
As far as performance is concerned, I can only compare our main production system under Linux with an accounting system under Windows. The workload on the Linux system is easily 5 times (probably more) that of the accounting system. Yet, the accounting system with 5 nodes requires a GB network and a dual-processor $7000 windows server and it still seems sluggish. We have ~50 Linux boxes used for order entry, shipping, and production connected to a $500 server with a single processor and a 100MB network. Performance has been good until recently which turns out to be a database issue. The DB needs to be rebuilt but that can't be done during the Christmas Season.
Concerning cost: We setup our Linux boxes once and never need to touch them again unless there's some kind of hardware failure. We run our application and Open Office. They don't get viruses and don't require any further administration. We save significantly on administration costs. Obviously the lower hardware requirements speak for Linux TCO.
Windows is better in two cases: (1) when you have some exotic piece of hardware which is not supported by linux and (2) when the application you run is Windows-based. For the hardware Linux supports, which is pretty extensive now, the installation is fully automatic. When I connected my multi-function Canon Pixma MP780 under Ubuntu 7.10, after a few seconds a Window poped-up which said something like "Your Canon Pixma MP780 is now installed and ready to use." I didn't have to do anything except plug it in. But, the software for it is more refined under Windows.
I backup my files to external USB drives. I can edit them, if I chose to. Perhaps it rarely makes sense, but let that be my choice. Once again, it shows the quality difference between Linux and MS OS products. Don't get me wrong, I think Windows is great for the home as long as security and reliability aren't important.
You mention a number of Microsoft products you consider cool, yet, these products pale technically when compared to the competion in the markets they are sold in. They can compete only because they are compatible with very uncool MS secret protocols (SMB) and file formats (DOC, XLS, etc).
Windows Server 2003. Compare that to Solaris for real server tasks. ZFS is faster and vastly more reliable. Virtually any Linux Server OS is more reliable and less virus prone. That's why MS serves their updates via Linux servers.
IIS 6 can't really compete with Apache especially in real standards compliance and flexibility.
I can't comment on XBox or Moss 2007. I have a friend who administers a Windows network. They have an army of people to do it and they are constantly going to two-week seminars to learn how to do tasks that are obvious in a Unix environment. The network is unreliable but they just accept that as "normal".
I fail to see how MS is cool? At least not techically.
Re: but it's at least clever to allow error correction after the fact instead of forcing a check before.
In our business, customers fax in orders which they can cancel as long as it happens before 4 PM (ship time). You can return goods bought at stores within two weeks if they haven't been opened or are in original condition. There are thousands of examples of this predating computers. This is just a typical example of IP gone bad. In fact, patenting software is like patenting math. It just doesn't make sense. Period.
In college we had two Dec System 10 with 512K 36-bit Words for the entire univeristy. It used cards for both program and data. I was ecstatic when I purchased my first Commodore Vic 20 with 5K of memory. There was a tape drive you could buy, but it was more than I could afford.
You had to deal with clock ticks in those days to get a really responsive program.
You do realize that MS has a patent on math. Using the Abacus is illegal and you will be required to purchase a Windows license wherever you use math. Check the back of your abacus to see if it has an authorization key.
The Clicking noise from the abacus is owned by the RIAA. You may be contacted and you will be liable for each click illegally using the "Click".
A friend of mine has to wipe out his hard disk once or twice a year and reinstall windows. It's the only way to really get rid of viruses. It takes him all day to finally track down and download the drivers.
I know this, because he calls me up and asks to use my Linux machine to find and download the drivers because Windows didn't even recognize his network card.
Windows doesn't support much itself. You have to have the vendor's drivers.
Re: no i'm not going to list them get off your but and do some basic searching on your own
Of course you're not going to list them - the comparison would expose the fallacy of your claim.
I keep hearing MS fans make these statements - but, of course, they've never really tried anything else. They continue to use their pirated copy of MS office. If they actually had to pay for it, you'd be amazed at how quickly people would be saying "Wow - why pay 400 bucks for MS Office when I can do all I was doing for free."
We have some MS Office fans at work - they continue to be surprised of what I can do with Open Office. Sorry MS Appologists, but you can't really justify MS Office any more.
The problem is, when they try to use something else, even if it is just requiring an open format, MS sues them with their huge legal team and legal budget.
I'm happy to say, though, that our company has been using Linux for our mission criticle stuff and it hasn't let us down.
Reality... it's such a hard concept....
The fact is, I installed Linux (from scratch) on my second machine. I didn't have to change any configuration files or actually do anything except let it install. Took about 10-15 minutes total.
A Windows user friend of mine called me in panic. He had to reinstall Windows since he had a virus even though he had a firewall up and current AV software. He had reinstalled Windows which took him a couple of hours but he couldn't get to the internet to download drivers (one of which was for his network card). It took him most of the day to get it working.
I'll bet it takes me less time to install Linux than it takes you to install your AV software and we are not even talking about getting updates.
Not quite that simple.
China hinted last week that it might start looking at shifting it's foreign currency holdings away from the dollar and the dollar fell a significant amount. Once that starts a chain reaction in motion (other countries wanting to have their holdings in a more secure currency), the dollar will go into free-fall.
Once Oil starts being denominated in some other currency, it will increase our trade deficit and decrease our buying power significantly and thus our overall influence. Our debt is 30,000 per person (or about 120,000 per taxpayer). We have become a third world country.
Their Windows-based ticketing system crashed on the first day. If they are using Windows I think we have nothing to worry about on the IT-warfare department.
Slashdot Mirror
So, MS is blocking you from reading your own data. Nice.
One more reason why I use Open Office. I still find it humorous that people still stick to MS products after having to pay horrendous amounts of money and then to get treated like this with your own data. I have copies of old documents for archival purposes. I'd be angry if I knew I could not longer access those documents.
Come on MS users, is this what you really want?
Using that argument, for 99% of what people do, there is an open source product that does what most people need.
As far as MS is concerned, user lock-in is the main reason most general users are still using MS. Most users surf, chat, organize pictures and music. If it weren't for MS specific codecs and protocols, the Open Source alternatives work as well as or better than what MS has to offer.
Microsoft has been successful only in its ability to remove competition and control protocols. What real innovation has MS brought to the table? When you look at where they concentrate their efforts, it's in threatening competitors with IP lawsuites, buying out competitors and trying to own/control protocols to make sure noone else can play.
Any successful computer-related product anywhere threatens MS.
Has anybody noticed that the quality of Open SuSE has gone seriously downhill since the announcement? The fonts are just plain ugly and the usability has gotten significantly worse. I spent some time making some basic changes to make it usuable and came to the conclusion that someone must have been really trying to make it that ugly and user-unfriendly. Could it be that Novell has an incentive to remove itself as a competitor?
This is just my opinion, of course.
I stand corrected. You are right, that most people would not install it unless they had someone who prodded them to do it or they had heard somewhere about it and figured it would solve some problem or be better in some way. My brother is such a person. My mother, on the other hand, would not.
I think the point was whether it was "effective". Your point was that it takes a geek to install it and, therefore, it wouldn't qualify as effective.
I recently had a non-technical guy at our office install Ubuntu on several machines. Some were new, some where Windows boxes that were put out to pasture. I was on the phone on the first installation (I work and support the installation remotely), but he did the rest on his own and he's not technical. He didn't even know it was an OS. That's how simple it's become.
Good Point. He probably would attack GM ... because it has oil.
Try installing Ubuntu 7.10. It is easier to install than installing most drivers for hardware under Windows. It will install and correctly recognize all common hardware just by accepting the defaults.
Regarding "I suppose you don't use Symantec ..."
Well, we use Symantec on two email machines we have. Even though the updates are current, these machines are constantly compromised. I understand that there is no such thing as perfect security, but the use of Windows and AV software doesn't seem to buy much except, perhaps, some time.
Excellent!
Re: "...what about performance and cost?"
As far as performance is concerned, I can only compare our main production system under Linux with an accounting system under Windows. The workload on the Linux system is easily 5 times (probably more) that of the accounting system. Yet, the accounting system with 5 nodes requires a GB network and a dual-processor $7000 windows server and it still seems sluggish. We have ~50 Linux boxes used for order entry, shipping, and production connected to a $500 server with a single processor and a 100MB network. Performance has been good until recently which turns out to be a database issue. The DB needs to be rebuilt but that can't be done during the Christmas Season.
Concerning cost: We setup our Linux boxes once and never need to touch them again unless there's some kind of hardware failure. We run our application and Open Office. They don't get viruses and don't require any further administration. We save significantly on administration costs. Obviously the lower hardware requirements speak for Linux TCO.
Windows is better in two cases: (1) when you have some exotic piece of hardware which is not supported by linux and (2) when the application you run is Windows-based. For the hardware Linux supports, which is pretty extensive now, the installation is fully automatic. When I connected my multi-function Canon Pixma MP780 under Ubuntu 7.10,
after a few seconds a Window poped-up which said something like "Your Canon Pixma MP780 is now installed and ready to use." I didn't have to do anything except plug it in. But, the software for it is more refined under Windows.
Regards
I backup my files to external USB drives. I can edit them, if I chose to. Perhaps it rarely makes sense, but let that be my choice. Once again, it shows the quality difference between Linux and MS OS products. Don't get me wrong, I think Windows is great for the home as long as security and reliability aren't important.
Cool Products?
You mention a number of Microsoft products you consider cool, yet, these products pale technically when compared to the competion in the markets they are sold in. They can compete only because they are compatible with very uncool MS secret protocols (SMB) and file formats (DOC, XLS, etc).
Windows Server 2003. Compare that to Solaris for real server tasks. ZFS is faster and vastly more reliable. Virtually any Linux Server OS is more reliable and less virus prone. That's why MS serves their updates via Linux servers.
IIS 6 can't really compete with Apache especially in real standards compliance and flexibility.
I can't comment on XBox or Moss 2007. I have a friend who administers a Windows network. They have an army of people to do it and they are constantly going to two-week seminars to learn how to do tasks that are obvious in a Unix environment. The network is unreliable but they just accept that as "normal".
I fail to see how MS is cool? At least not techically.
So, Microsoft feels it has a monopoly on monopolies?
Re: but it's at least clever to allow error correction after the fact instead of forcing a check before.
In our business, customers fax in orders which they can cancel as long as it happens before 4 PM (ship time). You can return goods bought at stores within two weeks if they haven't been opened or are in original condition. There are thousands of examples of this predating computers. This is just a typical example of IP gone bad. In fact, patenting software is like patenting math. It just doesn't make sense. Period.
In college we had two Dec System 10 with 512K 36-bit Words for the entire univeristy. It used cards for both program and data. I was ecstatic when I purchased my first Commodore Vic 20 with 5K of memory. There was a tape drive you could buy, but it was more than I could afford.
You had to deal with clock ticks in those days to get a really responsive program.
You do realize that MS has a patent on math. Using the Abacus is illegal and you will be required to purchase a Windows license wherever you use math. Check the back of your abacus to see if it has an authorization key. The Clicking noise from the abacus is owned by the RIAA. You may be contacted and you will be liable for each click illegally using the "Click".
A friend of mine has to wipe out his hard disk once or twice a year and reinstall windows. It's the only way to really get rid of viruses. It takes him all day to finally track down and download the drivers.
I know this, because he calls me up and asks to use my Linux machine to find and download the drivers because Windows didn't even recognize his network card.
Windows doesn't support much itself. You have to have the vendor's drivers.
Re: no i'm not going to list them get off your but and do some basic searching on your own
Of course you're not going to list them - the comparison would expose the fallacy of your claim.
I keep hearing MS fans make these statements - but, of course, they've never really tried anything else. They continue to use their pirated copy of MS office. If they actually had to pay for it, you'd be amazed at how quickly people would be saying "Wow - why pay 400 bucks for MS Office when I can do all I was doing for free."
We have some MS Office fans at work - they continue to be surprised of what I can do with Open Office. Sorry MS Appologists, but you can't really justify MS Office any more.
The problem is, when they try to use something else, even if it is just requiring an open format, MS sues them with their huge legal team and legal budget. I'm happy to say, though, that our company has been using Linux for our mission criticle stuff and it hasn't let us down.
Re: "Nothing's better than Vista. Much better..." Classic!
Reality ... it's such a hard concept....
The fact is, I installed Linux (from scratch) on my second machine. I didn't have to change any configuration files or actually do anything except let it install. Took about 10-15 minutes total.
A Windows user friend of mine called me in panic. He had to reinstall Windows since he had a virus even though he had a firewall up and current AV software. He had reinstalled Windows which took him a couple of hours but he couldn't get to the internet to download drivers (one of which was for his network card). It took him most of the day to get it working.
I'll bet it takes me less time to install Linux than it takes you to install your AV software and we are not even talking about getting updates.
Not quite that simple. China hinted last week that it might start looking at shifting it's foreign currency holdings away from the dollar and the dollar fell a significant amount. Once that starts a chain reaction in motion (other countries wanting to have their holdings in a more secure currency), the dollar will go into free-fall. Once Oil starts being denominated in some other currency, it will increase our trade deficit and decrease our buying power significantly and thus our overall influence. Our debt is 30,000 per person (or about 120,000 per taxpayer). We have become a third world country.
Their Windows-based ticketing system crashed on the first day. If they are using Windows I think we have nothing to worry about on the IT-warfare department.