The fact that the IE market share is declining is enough to demonstrate to reasonable people that the public IS aware that there are alternatives to using IE, and they ARE able to use these alternatives.
To "reasonable people"? You seem to think that Firefox grabbing 15% after spending hundreds of billions dollars proves that Microsoft didn't break the law. Asa Dotzler of Mozilla disagreesstrongly:
"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more than half a dozen other "traditional" browser vendors with better than I.E. products have had near-zero success encroaching on Microsoft I.E.'s dominance, there's a demonstrable tilt to the playing field."
Never mind Google's free advertising for Firefox all over the place. What do you think any other browser vendor would have had to pay for that kind of advertising, which Mozilla got for free? Hundreds of millions of dollars?
I see, and when IE is taken out of the windows install and the new user is provided with discs containing Opera, Firefox, Chrome and IE, which will they choose to install?
Who knows? Most likely, OEMs will simply preinstall a browser, and the user won't have to choose.
I have an ideology too, and mine is that I want my computer to do as much out of the box as possible, with the minimum of fuss.
So basically, you want everyone else to pay for your needs. Because all these extras actually cost money to develop, you know. But this is all besides the point, which is that Microsoft broke the law, and that has consequences.
3rd party apps which suck don't have the right to try and poach users from the OS manufacturer's apps by stopping users having that default and hoping to bamboozle them into installing the suckier 3rd party app
Are you seriously saying that IE has been the best browser for all these years? That IE's dominance is due to its excellent quality? Do you not see anything wrong when IE is able to keep its market share for several years without a single update?
Now, why should the situation be different if only one company makes cars?
If there was only one car manufacturer, and this car manufacturer broke the law by destroying competition, then this car manufacturer would indeed have to be convicted. Why do you ask? But your analogy is extremely poor since no car company has a monopoly, whereas Microsoft does.
Do we see KDE complaining that Explorer competes with KDE4 for windows? OpenOffice complaining that wordpad competes with them? Octave complaining that for simple work calc competes with them? Zonealarm complaining that windows now includes a firewall? No.
The question is not whether they compete. The question is whether Microsoft broke the law in each of these cases. Comparing WordPad and OpenOffice is just inane, though. You should also keep in mind that while an antivirus program is exclusive to your computer, a browser interfaces with a network which is supposed to be open and available to anyone. Microsoft treated the web as if it was their property, or at least tried to make it so, thereby impeding the rest of the market. They broke the law.
Finally, I hear no-one screaming that linux should adhere to the same standards.
Do you work for Microsoft? You sound like yet another MS shill reading from a script. Even a complete moron would have realized by now that Linux is not a monopoly, and did not break the law. Microsoft broke the law.
The computer is a wonderful tool because it can do so many things, trying to make it so that it won't do those things without first fiddling with it is a step backwards
OEMs will preinstall a browser, so new computers will still be able to go online right away.
If MS offered the choice to install IE or not during the install process, Opera wouldn't be satisifed. If MS wrenched IE out of Windows and put it on a disc that came with the retail package, Opera wouldn't be satisfied.
This is not about satisfying Opera. Opera doesn't get to enforce the EU laws. That is for the EU to do. And clearly, Microsoft broke the law, and breaking the law has consequences.
Essentially, this is a technical nightmare to implement, it's bad for ordinary users and opens the door for the chaff of software development to demand a 'fair' shot resulting in an innavigable morasse which benefits no-one.
It will not be a technical nightmare to implement. Bundling will just be done by the OEM rather than Microsoft.
And it benefits everyone except Microsoft because there will finally be actual competition, which means that the web will make huge leaps forward, making
They want IE unbunbled and/OR alternative browsers pre-installed. They never demanded that these browsers, if any, needed to be Opera. The main point is getting IE out there because of Microsoft's antitrust violations.
Surely this decision is about 10 years too late and such a change would no longer be relevant to the industry.
No, the antitrust complaint was just in time, forcing Microsoft to do the right thing with IE8. You really think Microsoft has stopped breaking the law? No. Remember ECMAScript 4 and the way Microsoft undermined it all the way?
But with the rise of Web 2.0 and hand helds like Blackberry and iPhone, Windows is no longer the dominant application platform
And yet the web is held back by Microsoft's illegal tactics. What do you think the web would have been with actual competition? With actual progress instead of Microsoft stalling all the way, including ECMAScript 4?
You're arguing that only Microsoft should get punished because they're a "convicted monopolist".
No, he's arguing that Microsoft should be punished because they broke the law. If Apple broke the law, by all means, punish them too. But Apple definitely did not break the law with Safari.
The iPod's market share is around 85%.
Source for that claim? Never mind. A monopoly isn't necessarily illegal. It is illegal if you break antitrust laws. If you feel that Apple did, feel free to report them to the authorities like Microsoft was for breaking the law.
Your comment was a poor one, missed the point completely, and ignored important facts. Read 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF's reply and you'll see what you did wrong.
The "N" version failed because Microsoft screwed the EU and made a version they knew no one would buy (it was even the same price!). I'm sure that the EU will get it right this time, since they seem to have had quite enough of Microsoft's games.
My guess is that Microsoft would not be allowed to offer Windows with and without IE. It would be without IE, or no Windows for sale.
It's Microsoft that's being targeted because it is a Monopoly. Apple isn't. If Apple breaks the law the way MS did, sure, they will get in trouble too.
Microsoft is a monopoly by EU standards (and US standards). Law, that is. For something to be a monopoly, it only needs to have "sufficient" market share, according to antitrust law.
have you ever actually TRIED to remove IE from a WinNT based OS?
So Microsoft responded to the US antitrust case by making it even more difficult to remove? Sounds like willful violation of the law to me. Such willful violation of the law surely cannot go unpunished.
But after a few more meetings I started getting creeped out by the people there
How come?
I also joined a gym, but I don't understand what that's supposed to accomplish, other than physical fitness.
Physical fitness makes you look healthier, and can help your self-esteem. Higher self-esteem makes you more comfortable in various situations.
And if I get smashed before going, I can be quite sociable, but otherwise, I have no idea what to do.
Don't get smashed. Just drink enough to relax, which shouldn't be much ideally. It really can help, as long as you are in control of yourself and not just a zombie.
You can use bookmarks nicknames in Opera. I don't know about Mac, but in Windows, I can assign any letter or word to a bookmark. If I press Shift+F2, I can just start typing the nickname and it'll jump to that bookmark as soon as it's the first unique match. If there's only one bookmark starting with the letter you are typing, it will open it automatically. So if I bookmark something and call it "news" and there are no other nicknames starting with "n", all I need to do is press Shift+F2, n, and the bookmark will open immediately.
Those jobs would be created during the transition to the new system. When the transition is completely, most of them would probably go away. On the other hand, the economy might be in a much better shape, and it would be easier to get other jobs. So it helps right here and now, benefits everyone, and might help things along until the economy is on the right track again.
Doublespeak is to hide the real meaning of what you are saying. Who is doing the "doublespeak" here? Looks like you are blinded by your partisanship. Ooh, McCain said something and now Obama is doing something similar! It's a conspiracy I tell you! Obama must always do the exact opposite of what McCain proposes, otherwise Obama is engaging in "doublespeak"! Squeak, squeak, squeak...
Actually, it seems that JavaScript is mostly not the problem when it comes to performance. However, JS benchmarks make it easy to present fancy numbers, so it's well suited for artificial numbers that don't really say much about real-world performance.
Bear in mind that those tests are rather artificial, and only test certain parts of JavaScript, which probably isn't the main performance bottleneck on most sites anyway. I think you'll see that a browser which seems slower at JS can be faster than most of the other browsers when it comes to real-world performance.
It hasn't made anything revolutionary on the desktop in a while and concentrated on mobile/console deals.
Claiming that Opera isn't concentrating on the desktop version is just nonsense. According to a recent blog post on Opera's desktop team blog, the desktop team is bigger than ever. The desktop version actually makes up a quarter of Opera's total revenue and has doubled its user base in two years. Why would one not focus on something that is bringing in good money and seeing excellent growth?
I don't get this crazy desire people have to claim that the desktop version is dying or whatever. Didn't any of you see the major update released a few months ago, version 9.5? And then 9.6 with even more stuff? 9.5 should have been called Opera 10, it had so much new stuff. The desktop version is alive and well, and being worked actively on, which should be evident to anyone who pays attention. Heck, Opera 10 is on its way already!
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To "reasonable people"? You seem to think that Firefox grabbing 15% after spending hundreds of billions dollars proves that Microsoft didn't break the law. Asa Dotzler of Mozilla disagrees strongly:
"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more than half a dozen other "traditional" browser vendors with better than I.E. products have had near-zero success encroaching on Microsoft I.E.'s dominance, there's a demonstrable tilt to the playing field."
Never mind Google's free advertising for Firefox all over the place. What do you think any other browser vendor would have had to pay for that kind of advertising, which Mozilla got for free? Hundreds of millions of dollars?
Who knows? Most likely, OEMs will simply preinstall a browser, and the user won't have to choose.
So basically, you want everyone else to pay for your needs. Because all these extras actually cost money to develop, you know. But this is all besides the point, which is that Microsoft broke the law, and that has consequences.
Are you seriously saying that IE has been the best browser for all these years? That IE's dominance is due to its excellent quality? Do you not see anything wrong when IE is able to keep its market share for several years without a single update?
If there was only one car manufacturer, and this car manufacturer broke the law by destroying competition, then this car manufacturer would indeed have to be convicted. Why do you ask? But your analogy is extremely poor since no car company has a monopoly, whereas Microsoft does.
The question is not whether they compete. The question is whether Microsoft broke the law in each of these cases. Comparing WordPad and OpenOffice is just inane, though. You should also keep in mind that while an antivirus program is exclusive to your computer, a browser interfaces with a network which is supposed to be open and available to anyone. Microsoft treated the web as if it was their property, or at least tried to make it so, thereby impeding the rest of the market. They broke the law.
Do you work for Microsoft? You sound like yet another MS shill reading from a script. Even a complete moron would have realized by now that Linux is not a monopoly, and did not break the law. Microsoft broke the law.
OEMs will preinstall a browser, so new computers will still be able to go online right away.
This is not about satisfying Opera. Opera doesn't get to enforce the EU laws. That is for the EU to do. And clearly, Microsoft broke the law, and breaking the law has consequences.
It will not be a technical nightmare to implement. Bundling will just be done by the OEM rather than Microsoft.
And it benefits everyone except Microsoft because there will finally be actual competition, which means that the web will make huge leaps forward, making
Guess you hate the Socialist US as well then, considering the near-identical antitrust charges brought up there a few years ago.
They want IE unbunbled and/OR alternative browsers pre-installed. They never demanded that these browsers, if any, needed to be Opera. The main point is getting IE out there because of Microsoft's antitrust violations.
Really? We know for a fact that they have threatened and forced OEMs to keep IE. They broke the law. Breaking the law has consequences.
No, the antitrust complaint was just in time, forcing Microsoft to do the right thing with IE8. You really think Microsoft has stopped breaking the law? No. Remember ECMAScript 4 and the way Microsoft undermined it all the way?
And yet the web is held back by Microsoft's illegal tactics. What do you think the web would have been with actual competition? With actual progress instead of Microsoft stalling all the way, including ECMAScript 4?
No, he's arguing that Microsoft should be punished because they broke the law. If Apple broke the law, by all means, punish them too. But Apple definitely did not break the law with Safari.
Source for that claim? Never mind. A monopoly isn't necessarily illegal. It is illegal if you break antitrust laws. If you feel that Apple did, feel free to report them to the authorities like Microsoft was for breaking the law.
Are you being serious? Apple is not a monopoly, and did not break the law. This has been repeated to death. Come on, are you paying attention at all?
Your comment was a poor one, missed the point completely, and ignored important facts. Read 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF's reply and you'll see what you did wrong.
My guess is that Microsoft would not be allowed to offer Windows with and without IE. It would be without IE, or no Windows for sale.
It's Microsoft that's being targeted because it is a Monopoly. Apple isn't. If Apple breaks the law the way MS did, sure, they will get in trouble too.
Microsoft is a monopoly by EU standards (and US standards). Law, that is. For something to be a monopoly, it only needs to have "sufficient" market share, according to antitrust law.
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2009/01/competition_is.html
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2009/01/no_it_hasnt.html
So Microsoft responded to the US antitrust case by making it even more difficult to remove? Sounds like willful violation of the law to me. Such willful violation of the law surely cannot go unpunished.
Opera [antitrust complaint] forced Microsoft to reconsider its position on standards in IE8
Opera is not going to be paid a dime. This is not a lawsuit. What Opera did was the equivalent of reporting a crime to the police.
Have you seen this?
We are products of evolution. Sex is our driving force. That said, indeed, sex alone isn't necessarily going to make you happy.
How come?
Physical fitness makes you look healthier, and can help your self-esteem. Higher self-esteem makes you more comfortable in various situations.
Don't get smashed. Just drink enough to relax, which shouldn't be much ideally. It really can help, as long as you are in control of yourself and not just a zombie.
You can use bookmarks nicknames in Opera. I don't know about Mac, but in Windows, I can assign any letter or word to a bookmark. If I press Shift+F2, I can just start typing the nickname and it'll jump to that bookmark as soon as it's the first unique match. If there's only one bookmark starting with the letter you are typing, it will open it automatically. So if I bookmark something and call it "news" and there are no other nicknames starting with "n", all I need to do is press Shift+F2, n, and the bookmark will open immediately.
Those jobs would be created during the transition to the new system. When the transition is completely, most of them would probably go away. On the other hand, the economy might be in a much better shape, and it would be easier to get other jobs. So it helps right here and now, benefits everyone, and might help things along until the economy is on the right track again.
Doublespeak is to hide the real meaning of what you are saying. Who is doing the "doublespeak" here? Looks like you are blinded by your partisanship. Ooh, McCain said something and now Obama is doing something similar! It's a conspiracy I tell you! Obama must always do the exact opposite of what McCain proposes, otherwise Obama is engaging in "doublespeak"! Squeak, squeak, squeak...
Actually, it seems that JavaScript is mostly not the problem when it comes to performance. However, JS benchmarks make it easy to present fancy numbers, so it's well suited for artificial numbers that don't really say much about real-world performance.
Bear in mind that those tests are rather artificial, and only test certain parts of JavaScript, which probably isn't the main performance bottleneck on most sites anyway. I think you'll see that a browser which seems slower at JS can be faster than most of the other browsers when it comes to real-world performance.
Claiming that Opera isn't concentrating on the desktop version is just nonsense. According to a recent blog post on Opera's desktop team blog, the desktop team is bigger than ever. The desktop version actually makes up a quarter of Opera's total revenue and has doubled its user base in two years. Why would one not focus on something that is bringing in good money and seeing excellent growth?
I don't get this crazy desire people have to claim that the desktop version is dying or whatever. Didn't any of you see the major update released a few months ago, version 9.5? And then 9.6 with even more stuff? 9.5 should have been called Opera 10, it had so much new stuff. The desktop version is alive and well, and being worked actively on, which should be evident to anyone who pays attention. Heck, Opera 10 is on its way already!
Like Firefox, then. Sure didn't seem to keep Firefox back, though.
Nope, it's right there in the preferences dialog.